Ballrollers
506 posts
Dec 05, 2006
3:23 PM
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"The Search for Those Fabulous Whitinghams", Joe Quinn, Chapter 3, Spotlight on Strain, p. 32-25
"Many fanciers who recieved survival's of a Birmingham Roller breeder's life investment would then advertise their relation to the original strain; "Pure Pensom", "Fireball", "Whittingham", "Silvey", "Grover",
"Emerson", "Les Manz"...."Platz Orange Eyed Whites"....It should be noted that Strains and Pedigrees are also the manufactured 'hype' used predominantly by pigeon marketers to sell pigeons. In Wendall Levi's book 'The Pigeon', he makes no mention of the word 'strain'...because the word has so vague a definition...successful flyers don't believe 'Strain' really exists; EVER! With the influx of birds from all directions and the breeding patterns (often in secret) of the flyers, makes direct line pedigrees subject to considerable doubt."
"In the Ocotber 1959 United Roller Cub of America bulletin edited by Carl Ganyard, Clayton Lutes began a column of questions and answers.....One of the questions asked was, 'Does a certain strain make a bird better?' Answer: 'This strain stuff is a joke of an over publicized bunch of bunk....Nobody created the Birmingham Roller and nobody is entitiled to the credit ...a family is cultivated in each loft as to performance, type, temperment, and the credit should go to the last man that had the bird, if he raised it'......."
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 3:28 PM
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motherlodelofts
1029 posts
Dec 05, 2006
3:50 PM
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Cliff , not sure what the Whittingham stuff has to do with anything , but on the PRC Pensom pedigree stuff it gets worse , the club turned into a show club and many started crossing in Modenas and such "and" making up pedigrees, your duel purpose and Show Rollers today is the prodigy of it.
The NBRC was started due to it and to promote the Birmingham Roller as a performance breed as it was intended.
The same with cross breeding for color and color breeding, performance has nothing to do with it , other wise it wouldn't have been done in the first place , there is a reason that serious flyers don't color breed.
Again, funny how hard you color breeders are working so hard to discredit the breed , show a little respect , there is alot of work behind the breed.
Scott
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Ballrollers
507 posts
Dec 05, 2006
4:04 PM
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"In Search of Those Fabulous Whittinghams", Joe Quinn, Chapeter 7, p. 104.
"...all birds handled by either Pensom or Graham became theirs automatically regardless of the bird's parenting. The prestige of these personalities overshadowed pedigree. The birds imported from several select lofts in England, all became Pensoms in an instant. This would also be true for Graham, surrounded by Whittinghams imported over the years by McAree to Toronto; each bird shipped became a Graham Fireball....In fact, prior to the Pensom importations, almost all the Birmingham Rollers in the United States and Canada were of Whittingham bloodlines... Bill Pensom called all such birds he imported, 'Black Country Rollers.' He had developed a relationship with many breeders in the area of Birmingham and generally was reluctant to call these birds Pensom Rollers. He did in fact develop his own 'strain' from the years he spent breeding rollers in this country from his own stock....Graham did breed his own strain of rollers over the years. He considered them to be the finest in the world."
"The Birmingham Roller", Wm H. Pensom, "Incidentally, the deep roller is a greater disadvantage in a flying competition than the shorter worker or tumbler, and for this reason, the best breeders of rolling pigeons lost all interest in flying competitions......I believe pigeons should be given prizes for their individual merit."
Interesting stuff, eh?!
YITS,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
508 posts
Dec 05, 2006
4:13 PM
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Scott,
#1. For the umpteenth time, you know I do not breed for color, so why continue the bullshit?
#2. No disrespecting of the breed from me, my friend. If you feel that displaying the facts that have been printed for the past century, about the origin and development of the Birmingham Roller, is disrespectful, maybe you had better come down out of your dream world and get your feet planted in reality. That's all I am submitting...the reality of the situation. Each man will draw his own conclusions.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 4:16 PM
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fhtfire
683 posts
Dec 05, 2006
4:27 PM
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I agree that birds should get prizes for their individual performance.....one prize is being a Certified roller...through the NBRC...back then I guess it meant more to the fanciers....most of us do not care if they are certified or not. I feel that this is because of Video, internet, ease of travel...so it is a easier to see a bird in person doing what it is supposed to do...then back in the old days.... I also feel that the quality and quantity of birds is way up compared to the old days....due to more fliers, the ease of communication and the fact that I can send a proven pair of breeders across the country in two to three days. So a lot of the writing of the old days...hardly work for today...or should I say...the meaning is not the same or may not be the same today...if that makes sense....different time...different era.
As far as the crossing in of other breeds in the begining...like Scott said..DUH!!! The breeds that were crossed and put together are performance breeds that rolled or tumbled to make the breed. That does not mean that you cross in a archangel, Mondena or what ever just for the color..especially once a breed has been "set". That is like a Labradoodle....crossing a lab with a poodle....you make a new breed.....just to have a curly haired lab..but you have ruined the lab breed and the poodle breed if everyone decided to do this. As a hunter and Lab owner...I think....WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS...just like a BR owner says...why would you cross an archangel just to make a color in a roller that is a performance breed. If you want to do it in your back yard fine...but don't say it is a Roller...say it is a cross....anyway...you have to take the old writings with a grain of salt...because things are not the same....anyway...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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1-bad-57
12 posts
Dec 05, 2006
4:49 PM
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Great information Cliff Thanks for sticking to the truth and keeping your agenda out of it.
Joe
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motherlodelofts
1032 posts
Dec 05, 2006
5:17 PM
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#1. For the umpteenth time, you know I do not breed for color, so why continue the bullshit?
(Sure you don't Cliff.)
"Hey guys, I have always valued blue lace as the most beautiful of the color modifiers. last weekend, I friend gave me a '99 blue lace bald hen and a 2000 blue lace self hen. Both are said to be 20 footers with fast, high quality spin. I have not worked with the reduced gene in breeding, and I understand that getting a blue lace cock is more difficult. So what is the best pairing for these hens to get the best marked blue lace offspring, hens and cocks? I have a black white flight cock that carries reduced and a reduced blue grizzle cock that carries recessive red and shows reduced. Which would be the best? Anyone have any experience with andalusian on blue lace? I have been told that grizzle is also necessary, which I believe is misinformation. I have also heard that a blue check carrying reduced is the best mating. Any ideas? YITS Cliff "
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 5:31 PM
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JMUrbon
88 posts
Dec 05, 2006
5:20 PM
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Sooo much imformation for one to digest Cliff. I will first tell you thanks for the interesting reading BUT that is all it is. That is all it should be for anybody that breeds rollers. I didn't specify Birmingham rollers or any other rollers because at the end of the fly day and the judge has turned in his scores he had better have judged the birds and not the breeder of the birds.
I have been through the color debate many times in the past and I have always stated that If it rolls fly it. There are colors and patterns that I don't like and would not breed from but that is personal preferance. I feel Like Kenny stated in an earlier post that as long as you are up front about your projects to any prospecting buyers then once they are in the air it is no bodies buisiness what was used to produce them. Just be honest when approached by somebody to get some of them. That is not asking much. Cliff I know that your intentions are good but there are those out there that would misslead in a heart beat to get an extra buck. I wont mention any names but I read numerous posts in the past regarding crested birds from a guys loft and how pure they were only to find out the truth from a casual conversation he had with a stranger. Just be honest and nobody has any grounds for complaining. Joe Urbon
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nicksiders
891 posts
Dec 05, 2006
5:43 PM
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Cliff,
If you verify the quote Scott just posted then I would say you are a color breeder so drop the crap and come out of the closet. Shame on you Cliff....
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Snicker Rollers
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knaylor
330 posts
Dec 05, 2006
6:11 PM
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Joe, very good post and that is the bottom line and all that we have ever asked!!! Scott stop making things up!!! LMAO
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motherlodelofts
1033 posts
Dec 05, 2006
8:00 PM
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Ok , just for good measure
"I bought a Dom Opal cock at the Backspin Classic this year. He is a very pale silver/yellow-colored bird. I can't really describe him very well. He's mated to a yellow check self hen. They have produced one round. Both are spitting images of the cock. Is he likely to always reproduce himself, color-wise? This is my first effort with Dom Opal. YITS Cliff"
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motherlodelofts
1034 posts
Dec 05, 2006
8:45 PM
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As for the Wittinghams , there is a reason that they have pretty much gone the way of the Do-Do bird.
Scott
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nicksiders
893 posts
Dec 05, 2006
9:59 PM
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Cliff,
These quotes are true and they have been blocked or pulled from access on another site. You are breeding color for color, but you get angry about it when it is told. You told Scott to knock off the bullshit about you being a color breeder; you need to cut the crap. You have been told on the "other" site that it is okay so what's the problem?
Cliff, you can't follow two masters. It will cause you to get into a pickle Cliff and it will start to ware on your credibility. You are a nice guy, but you have allowed people to give you confussing information. They appealed to your sence of safety and security I think with non-confrontational atmosphere. A do as you want attitude towards your birds cause"you are paying the feed bill".
I am sure you have heard from many on another site that there is room for everyone in the roller hobby, but in actuallity a roller is a performance breed and anytime you mix non-performing birds in the mix you are not promoting the roller properly; because afterall it the performance
and not color that needs to be promoted.
Decide what you want to do in this hobby and then stick to it. If you want to breed color then do it, but don't get into denial about it.
Just my opinion.
Nick
P.S. Now its your turn
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Snicker Rollers
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fhtfire
684 posts
Dec 05, 2006
10:19 PM
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Great Scott...now you have done it...LOL
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knaylor
331 posts
Dec 06, 2006
11:58 AM
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Nick, you realize that you have probably just been banned from the other site like a few of us have allready been?? Thats ok though you still got us!!! LMAO
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Velo99
697 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:22 PM
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Ya know it is kinda funny. I went over there and was snooping around,the only thread that deals with performance is locked out. HMMM
I was rather disgusted at some of the dialog referring to raising and breeding "rollers".
And Bob, come up with an original signature. I fail to see the humor in your blatant rip off of mine. Say something like " Chief Corruptor of Rollers."
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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STARFIRE
61 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:50 PM
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Hey Guys:
How about this quote from Pensom himself
Jan 1945
What is a champion? I will try to explain.
First, a champion is the greatest of all performers, a bird difficult to obtain but not beyond the reach of any fancier who cares to produce one. As a performer, its qualifications have no bounds.
It can roll perfectly for any distance up to a maximum of about eight yards. It can regulate depth at-will, rolling one yard, two yards or more at its own pleasure, according to its mood and the circumstances under which it is flying.
It can tumble any number of times; it can perform as a "mad tumbler," spin, and "twizzle". Its ability as a flier leaves nothing to be desired. In a kit a champion can adjust its own performance to meet the requirements of the others.
If they tumble, the champion tumbles. Such a bird does not have to be followed with the eye; he can be picked out at any time, and in comparison with him other Rollers are left at the post.
W.H. Pensom 1945
-Look==It says TWIZZLE=HOW ABOUT THAT---------
STARFIRE
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 2:53 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
898 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:53 PM
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Hey Starfire.Good to see you on here.How have you and rollers been doing.Guess you are having your share of cold weather. David
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Phantom1
149 posts
Dec 06, 2006
5:33 PM
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Okay, so we're back to copying things from the NPRA site and having a slaughter fest over here. Okay...I understood that Tony wouldn't allow this, so I'll take it up with him tomorrow.
V99 and any other against the NPRA, it's forum, it's membership, etc. Grow up.
I can only imagine you're only point to bringing these sorts of posts up is to get a rise out of anyone "over there". It's only thru people that share both the NBRC and the NPRA common threads (rare, but there are a few), that I am informed of the goings on over here.
It was made clear long ago that I can add no value to the conversations held on this forum. So boast if you must and say that I, and others, only show up out of the woodwork when something like this arises. Damn straight...when the BS is flying and my fellow fanciers are being slandered, you can bet I'll come over for a visit.
I respect Tony and his site. Perhaps this is something many of you may consider doing as well. I'll say it again, start your own private forum if you wish to pounce on someone or have a head-butting contest. Tony's site is not a 3 Ring Circus for anyone to prance around and show their A$$!
However, if you wish to pursue this in a more intimate setting, I'd be more than happy to block off an hour or however all you need to give me a case of the red arse in a private chat sometime. Just put the childish behavior to a rest. You boys have been at it long enough and "we" - you know whom I referring to - have been gone from this site and you're eyes for over a year. Give it a rest.
Eric
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 5:40 PM
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Ballrollers
509 posts
Dec 06, 2006
5:51 PM
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Scott and Nick....you guys are pitiful! You ought to be ashamed of yourselves! Some of us have been trying to have an above board debate as Tony requested...presenting evidence in the literature that supports our opinons. But you always gotta make it personal with the put downs and name-calling....the sure sign of a loser...When you can't provide the evidence to support your opinons and the other guy gets one up on you.....you resort to character asassinations....Scott; cruising the internet trying to find something a man said that can be used against him! Nick...jumping on the bandwagon and trying to get your licks in...Does that make you feel good about yourselves, guys? It must....I guess..... That's what guys like you used to do to Pensom; challenging him and putting him down because of something he said; taking things out of context when he reversed his opinion or changed his mind on something; invalidating him personally at every opportunity. Even at his last fly before he died, guys like you, simply because they had a different opinion than his, were invalidating him and putting his birds down. Dan Oulette, Chuck Roe...hell we could name dozens of other competitors and quality roller men...who have told me personally that they either left the hobby or just quit communicating with the men in the sport all together because of this kind of obnoxious, self-righteous behavior from guys like you. That is very sad, indeed.
I guess you both missed the part in my post about performance first; the 20 ft spinners with excellent speed and quality (according to Joe Bob; one of the blue laces with boots is from Joe Bob Stuka. He was using this bird and her father, a blue bar wf in his stock loft). Given excellence in performance, and trying to pair a cock to with one of two birds of equal type and performance, I make no bones about considering color second and inquiring about possible outcomes. Next you guys will be trying to put down roller men who ask what happens if they put two grizzles together; or the guys who are trying to produce quality spin in bellencks or baldheads. I wouldn' put it past your to call Pensom a color breeder; challenging his reasons for going back to England to get softer color birds; or Jerry Higgins for considering color in the pairings of his birds. You are the kind of guys that made Pensom's life miserable in his day (as well as many other good roller men), just as you are today; looking for every possible way to put men down or invalidate them because they don't believe or manage their rollers the way that you think they should. David is right...your behavior is truly a cancer in this hobby. Men like you, engaging in this type of behavior, have been responsible for the loss of huge numbers of men to this hobby. Well, you are the ones that have to sleep with yourselves at night.
I have presented, in this thread, a number of printed materials over the past century, keeping my personal opinons on the matter to a minimum. The information that I presented, in my opinon, raises valid questions about the purity of the breed, through the many breeds that were crossed to develope the BR....about the continual crossing in of other rolling breeds through the century....about the wide variety of breding and management practices in England and in the US....and about the so-called purity of certain "strains" or "families" within the breed. ...and lends little support to the "pedigree pushers" who would rely on little more than a man's word or corrupt pedigrees as a position from which to launch attacks on other roller men and other roller families. The sheer volume of this material invalidates the childish and immature point of view held by you guys who say, Na na na na na, "My birds are the only true BR, yours are nothing but mongrels." I have never crossed, and never plan to cross in another breed to my family of rollers, neither have the two men (who have one National and World Cup titles) that gave me my start in this family, nor has the man who created this family of performance rollers. Neither has David Strait who has competed and won his region two years straight with this family of rollers, and has also been maligned in your attacks. I don't support it as a practice, though it has been done by roller men since the beginning, and is responsible for the very development of the breed itself. But we are indebted to those brave men who, no doubt, faced similar viscious attacks for the corruption of the Oriental, the Dutch Roller and the English Tumbler breeds in their vision of what was possible in performance of these aerial acrobats. Meanwhile, I have lost all respect for these guys who choose to engage in this kind of behavior towards other roller men.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 6:47 PM
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motherlodelofts
1041 posts
Dec 06, 2006
6:30 PM
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You posted nothing here of substance other than trying to justify the mongralizing of the breed for color and factors, which is still being done today by members of the NPRA and others.
Overall I thought your post was a feable attempt that failed , I was curious how you were going to try and pave over the truth.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 9:04 PM
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247hollywood rollers
13 posts
Dec 06, 2006
7:04 PM
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i feel that us talking about color birds.is like us talking about my kids im white my wife is purple and shes from irak our kids are a lite purple.are they penson or half and half or just fake.you tell me...
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nicksiders
894 posts
Dec 06, 2006
7:51 PM
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Cliff,
You don't understand. If you are a color breeder just say so. Don't insist that you aren't when your behavior says that you are. Mr. Dan Ollette and Mr. Roe has nothing to do with anything. I said it is about you popping off to Scott denying that you are a color breeder when your activities say that you are. You are what you do. As far as you know I may be a color breeder, but if I where I would not deny it. I was not on anybodies band wagon, untill you forced me to jump up on one....
What does dragging other flyers name into the conversation do for you? Doesn't do anything for me.
Just say "I breed a little bit of color" and nobody would have jumped on anything.
Sorry Cliff
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 11:15 PM
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motherlodelofts
1043 posts
Dec 06, 2006
9:33 PM
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Some early Pensom stuff : Birmingham Roller History 1934
Difference between breeds
........................
The Difference between any other breed and the Birmingham Roller is that other breeds have a standard to which the respective fanciers cultivate their stock,and until such is attained, they value their product accordingly,whilst those of us who breed the Birmingham Roller avoid our standard.
There cannot be any excuse by those of many years experience that there is not a STANDARD or that they do not know of it's existance.If everyone were to keep in mind this all - important fact,then as pigeon fanciers we could claim , on equel terms with all others,a breed to be honored as one of the most unique creations in existance.
It is not easy to produce first class specimens, and in this respect alone can be claimed that in relative value it is on par with the most highly standardized bred livestock under the sun
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1-bad-57
13 posts
Dec 06, 2006
10:02 PM
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Cliff,
As you probably know there are several on this forum that have taken this to a radical religious level. I'd just laugh it off and and enjoy what you are doing. I've been involved in several competitive hobbies/sports in my life and there is always the same element that you are dealing with here. If they had all the answers they would be unbeatable. I've looked over their stats and I'm not that impressed expecially when I hear everything they think they know. These are not humble men, got it?
Enjoy your birds,
Joe
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STARFIRE
63 posts
Dec 06, 2006
10:31 PM
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--Ballroller
I agree with you 100%.If Scott cant make a valid point he will resort to Character Assassination.And make up storys to prove himself right.Like the fairy tale he wrote a while back about my crested birds.I was supposed to have told somebody exacly how I crossed in some crested birds to get my strain of crests.He said that Ron Kumro was there at the time.Ron did come to judge the WC at my place.and when he arrived ,I misjudged the time they were to arrive and had put my B team out to fly.All my birds were locked up inside the loft and NO ONE seen any of my birds that day.The guys in the TFRC did'nt want to wait till they came down.Ron was willing,but these guys seen a good excuse to not fly me.So I was forced to put my birds out under the other kit and get DQ'd.At no time did anyone go near my loft.And at no time did I talk to anyone about my crests.Scott ,you got to give it up.You'r sinking lower and lower.just be right.Look up the word MUTATION and see if your little pea brain can understand what that means.The sad part is that some people want to believe these guys that make up this crap,just to prove to everybody how smart they are.If you don't believe what happened ask Ron.
Starfire.
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motherlodelofts
1044 posts
Dec 06, 2006
10:50 PM
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I think that when it come's to the orgins of the breed , that considering the scource this is where I would put my stock, Pensom was probaby one of the most in depth student of the breed that there has ever been , his knowledge goes back to the old Black countrys greatest when it come's to this breed and spanned from the early 1900's to the 1960s.
Orgin 1941
........
Although not of much importance , it is perhaps interesting if only to surmise the orgin of the performing roller pigeon at large.As far as I have been able to investigate , I have been unable to trace any authentic part of it's history.
It is my candid opinion , after much careful consideration, that as far as the Birmingham Roller is concered, it ultimately occured either by accident or by deliberate crossings which resulted in a change of bodily structure , chiefly in the matter of tail size,especially if we accept the theory that the Oriental Roller was amongst the first onset it's most important ancester. There does not seem much reason to question the fact that the Oriental Roller was amongst the first species of domestic pigeons and that every performing variety we now have originated from them, but as regards the present performance of the Birmingham and the Oriental they are entirely different.
The construction of the Oriental is such that it will not allow itself to reduce to such a small compass as the lightning like effect displayed my the Birmingham. the reason for this is that the body of the Orientel is somewhat larger , whilst the tail is absolutly out of proportion by reason of the number of feathers contained therein, numbering in some species twenty or more. Therefore I advance the theory that the Birmingham is the product of the Oriental, so crossed as to reduce the size of the bodily structure along with the reduction both in the number tail feathers and shortening of the same to allow for the special performance of the Birmingham.
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motherlodelofts
1045 posts
Dec 06, 2006
10:52 PM
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Where was the Charactor assination Stan ? please enlighten me.
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 11:05 PM
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nicksiders
896 posts
Dec 06, 2006
11:38 PM
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To compete you have to be humble because the prof is in the pudding. Competitors have to put up; non competitors are the lest humble because they can talk a big show; they never have to put up. To tell you what true humility is; Scott Campbell was asked why his birds did not do well (If I remember right they DQ'd) His reply was "It is obvious I put up some junk. I did not have them preped". Scott Campbell is a competitor and he will put his birds up with no excusses as will most competitors. They are extremely humble; they have to be. Those that once competed and stopped did so because they couldn't compete well and they were not humble enough to keep at it. Thier pride was so strong they just could't handle it. Those that never compet may not do so because they are afraid of being humiliated........those people are not humble.
So Cliff, those people are humble. Get it? Enjoy your birds.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 11:41 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
879 posts
Dec 07, 2006
12:33 AM
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Hey Cliff, hang in there. How many expressing opinions (either way) are contributing and desiring to get at the facts as I have asked? Just stay on target, you are doing fine my friend.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Ballrollers
510 posts
Dec 07, 2006
4:24 AM
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Hehehehehehe. Thanks for your support, guys. I'm doin' fine, Tony....
Scott and nick...."nothing of substance....justification.....endless dribble....sure, guys, we understand....Any facts that are posted that opposes your own opinion is just endless dribble and nothing of substance. Fact is, until these last couple of posts, I have not offered my own personal opinion on the matter! But we understand, very well, that ANY logical discussion or debate represents nothing but "endless dribble" and "nothing of substance to you." That post was intended for the dozens of roller men who read this site that have a much broader capacity for listening with an open mind, and for understanding, and will make their own decisions accordingly. I'm fraid it's way beyond you two....your personal capacity to understand simple truth and logic is severely limited by your own arrogance and self-righteousness. You'll just have to sit there in the midst of all this "useless dribble" and "nothing of substance", and wonder what the heck this dixcussion is all about. Have a good life, gentlemen....
YITS,
Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
901 posts
Dec 07, 2006
4:45 AM
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Scott.You posted:
Some early Pensom stuff : Birmingham Roller History 1934
Difference between breeds
........................
The Difference between any other breed and the Birmingham Roller is that other breeds have a standard to which the respective fanciers cultivate their stock,and until such is attained, they value their product accordingly,whilst those of us who breed the Birmingham Roller avoid our standard.
There cannot be any excuse by those of many years experience that there is not a STANDARD or that they do not know of it's existance.If everyone were to keep in mind this all - important fact,then as pigeon fanciers we could claim , on equel terms with all others,a breed to be honored as one of the most unique creations in existance.
It is not easy to produce first class specimens, and in this respect alone can be claimed that in relative value it is on par with the most highly standardized bred livestock under the sun
This is the kind of research that really sums things up.Everyone should read and reread your post and especially this part."There cannot be any excuse by those of many years experience that there is not a STANDARD or that they do not know of it's existance.If everyone were to keep in mind this all - important fact,then as pigeon fanciers we could claim , on equel terms with all others,a breed to be honored as one of the most unique creations in existance."
I am sure that everyone knows the only Standard in existence for the Birmingham Roller is;"The True Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball."Page 10 of "The Birmingham Roller" by William H. Pensom.
So if everyone would just keep this in mind there would be no debates over what a True Birmingham Roller really is.Nothing about PURE just TRUE.
As Pensom said that after crossing the Oriental Roller with his Birmingham Rollers after the 3rd generation(I would think several years)that the type was back to the Birmingham Roller but the performance had not been bettered.
And this is the point I and many others is trying to convey.No matter what you cross into the Birmingham Roller for whatever reason IF you pick the best from the air their young will eventually revert back to the True Birmingham Roller.Why? Because Pensom also said that only a True Birmingham Roller can perform such a feat.
I also want everyone to know (as Cliff said)that I have never crossed anything into the Birmingham Roller for any reason.I do work with many factors that change what you see as color but they were already perfected in the roller before I got them.I can assure you that I will Cull any roller that dosn't perform in the air.I like color but I am first about their performance in the air.
This has got rather lengthy but these are my views and what I do and untill such time as someone can change my mind and my way of thinking I will continue to do so.
This is my last post on this subject.Well untill the next time anyway.LOL.David
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motherlodelofts
1048 posts
Dec 07, 2006
8:12 AM
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Dave it you notice his referernce to the breed over and over again, as for Pensom and the Oriental, I'm assuming you got that somewhere , where and when did he write it ?
Pensom was a student of flyte, type, charactor and anything that made pigeons tick, or just maybe he inbreed the hell of out of the crosses trying to learn the orgins of the breed better.
Your talking about a man that dedicated his life to the performance of the Birmingham Roller , and I can assure you that he was more serious about the breed than we are and from everything that I have gathered from the man which is much , never ever would he have passed it on , if he did cross there was a reason for it and it was in study of the breed , a little deeper than most realize.
I'll post later on a little one liner on how he felt about crossbreeding and a very lengthy one on the Wittinghams and Pensom saying "who" that Cliff is drawing much of his info around , I have a ton of info here, far more than I can peck out, the breed was established to a point that we have today a very long time ago, Cliff can dig up all he wants out of old adds or what have you, but all they are was pre - NPRA guys eh eh eh , the biggest difference was that even though they were selling birds they were UPFRONT about about crossing breeds.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2006 8:23 AM
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J_Star
714 posts
Dec 07, 2006
10:31 AM
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Believe it or not, I am enjoying reading all of your posts. It has been educational and informative from both sides. Keep up the good work guys and adhere to the posting policy as much as you can. No reason for any personal attaches added to your post here and there. Otherwise, very informative and thanks for all your sportsmanship. Who said that we cannot debate hot topics in a civilized fashion? This is a true and wonderful relation we all have developed no matter where you stand on any controversial issue.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2006 10:35 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
850 posts
Dec 07, 2006
10:52 AM
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yawwwnnnn.
Pensom died a long time ago guys. Give up the umbilical cord to the past already. Not one single thing that has been said in this agonizing yet mildly entertaining thread will have any impact on the birds you will walk outside and fly today, tomorrow or five years from now. Not one single word you have said has any bearing on the birds you fly. There will always be Blood Guardians just as there will always be Free Thinkers. Do any of you really believe you are going to convince the other side to drop their position and accept yours? You are f&*&^%%g retarded if you believe that. So all you are doing is blah, blah, blah about your stance. Wasted effort. Spend that effort deciding on your pairs or studying your kits and you will MUCH further ahead than if you sit here quoting some dead guy.
(Edited By Moderator)
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2006 12:24 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
883 posts
Dec 07, 2006
12:26 PM
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Ah but Brian, more informed and knowledgable Guardians and Free Thinkers. hehehe
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
1049 posts
Dec 07, 2006
1:50 PM
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Cliff , what are you on Nicks case for ? did you not post this ?
#1. For the umpteenth time, you know I do not breed for color, so why continue the bullshit?
You were popped distorting the truth (for what purpose ? ) and you were called on it , and now your pissed.
I'm the one that called you on it, how about leaving old Nick out of it.
Scott
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fhtfire
692 posts
Dec 07, 2006
2:00 PM
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Yeah...but all we have to do is cut and paste the other elevendy billion posts from previous mud slinging...lOL!!! Same stuff...just no name calling this time.
I agree with Brian....there is a lot to learn from the readings of Pensom...but that was a long time ago...truth of the matter his..Pensom would be sh*&%ing rubber nickels if he could see the % of good birds across the U.S. as well as the % of good birds per loft. I think he would be really excited to know that I can have a pair of birds from Cali..to N.Y within 3 days. A lot has changed since the writings....don't get me wrong...good stuff...but he is long gone...and his birds are too.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
1050 posts
Dec 07, 2006
2:25 PM
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Nobody has touched the depth of his writings, before or since , the only one that I have read that has even come close to his depth in writing was Monty Nieble.
As for Pensom birds, gone ? hardly .
They are the Root of what most have today , without his influence most would be stuck with Wittinghams.
Pensoms are root even in the color birds , Pensom birds were the base for the other breeds to be bred on.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2006 2:30 PM
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nicksiders
898 posts
Dec 07, 2006
2:42 PM
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Scott,
Can't you just say O'Nick instead of Old Nick?(LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
906 posts
Dec 07, 2006
3:21 PM
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Scott.You said about Monty's writings.Man I have never seen one.You wouldn't happen to have any you could share with me.I would love to read them.David
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JMUrbon
89 posts
Dec 07, 2006
4:56 PM
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I like what Brian said. And personally I wont give Pensom one bit of credit for my birds or anybody elses for that matter. I respect what the man did for the breed but There were alot of others that contributed to his success and nobody is hanging on their shirt tails. I am much more interested in how somebody is successful today than how they were in The 40's. Its strangs to me how only Pensom had good birds back then and you can find not just good birds but great birds all across the country nowdays yet we still want to drag Pensom into every debate like he is the judge that is overseeing our precious rollers and if we dont meet is expectations then he will come and take them back. Again I respect him for what he did with the breed but I will be dammed if I will idolize him.
Scott, Nick I do think that a guy can breed birds of color so long as they choose the color factors in the order they need to be placed. That means color should come last. There are guys out there that have successfully bred birds of color that are good rollers and they in turn have taken alot of the guess work out of breeding good rolling color birds for the newer breeders. Its simple because the new guy doesnt have to add the colors, They are already there. They can in turn just focus on the roll. I must add that in the competition side of rollers ( in my opinion ) you are putting yourself at a disadvantage rite off the bat due to the much higher percentage of great birds that are not of a perticular color.
Now in saying this don't take this out of contect guys. Those of you that know me know that I dont own anythink that even resembles a bird bred for color and that I also think that crossing for a color is a horrible injustice to the breed. I am merely stating that a guy can breed color birds for roll these days without having to add anything into them in order to get the colors. Its already been done for you. Just buy the colors you want out of the air and have fun with them. After all you are the one feeding them. JMHO J.M.Urbon Lofts
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motherlodelofts
1051 posts
Dec 07, 2006
6:29 PM
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Ok Joe, no more happy hr for you LOL
Scott
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247hollywood rollers
26 posts
Dec 07, 2006
7:02 PM
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COLORD BIRDS ROLL BETTER...
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2006 7:15 PM
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nicksiders
901 posts
Dec 07, 2006
7:07 PM
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Hollywood,
You're out of bounds............not funny.
We don't need your phone number either, but we would like your name.
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Snicker Rollers
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
884 posts
Dec 07, 2006
7:19 PM
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Hey Nick, his name is Robert Valladares aka 247hollywood rollers and he was kicked off the site earlier today and now his username has been deactivated.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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JMUrbon
92 posts
Dec 07, 2006
7:59 PM
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LOL.
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motherlodelofts
1052 posts
Dec 07, 2006
8:36 PM
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Dave , I don't have much , what I have is letters printed in the South African Mags. , Good stuff and it really gave me even more respect for this great flyer once it hit me how deep his knowledge was on performance.
If I get a chance I'll photo copy and send it to you , just keep bending my ear about it or I'll space it.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
907 posts
Dec 08, 2006
4:56 AM
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Scott.I sure would appreciate it.I didn't even know he had written anything.I enjoy reading everything I can about rollers.Thanks,David
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STARFIRE
64 posts
Dec 08, 2006
2:46 PM
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Hey Guys:
With all the posts on this topic,how come nobody mentiond spinners as opposed to rollers.There is a big difference you know=or do you.If the w.c. only judged first class spinners,that would eliminate about 3/4 of the flyers that have Rollers.
STARFIRE
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