George Ruiz
205 posts
Mar 15, 2007
4:33 PM
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Is it easier to train a 11 bird kit or a twenty bird kit for a competetion .
If so why ??
George
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 4:37 PM
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roll-n-4-ever
13 posts
Mar 15, 2007
4:51 PM
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George, I think its all about the same on the training part. The problem or challenge gets harder with trying to get 20 birds to work together versus 11. ITS LIKE HAVING A FULL CLASSROOM, YOU'LL FEEL MUCH BETTER ABOUT TEACHING 11 STUDENTS VS. 20. MORE STUDENTS LESS TIME TO WORK WITH THEM. ALTHOUGH IF YOU HAVE 20 STUDENTS YOUR TURNOUT RATIO IS GREATER.... TRAIN 20 -25 AND FLY 11 YOUR KIT SHOULD BE ON FIRE.... ROL_N_4_EVER...
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motherlodelofts
1569 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:49 PM
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Takes much more for the twenty George.
Scott
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nicksiders
1473 posts
Mar 15, 2007
6:16 PM
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Twenty is more difficult. You need to put together an actual team with the twenty that behaves like a team; not that critical with the eleven.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Missouri-Flyer
357 posts
Mar 16, 2007
6:11 PM
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what is the ratio for 11 bird versus 20 bird as far as number of flyers?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1575 posts
Mar 16, 2007
7:10 PM
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Jerry , you just find a few pockets accross the US that fly 11 bird, for the national it is about 2 - 1 .
There are more 20 bird flyers flying in the 11 bird now because you can enter two kits, either 2- twentys , 2- elevans or one of each .
But you cannot use any of the same birds if flying two elevans or two twentys , but you can use the same birds if flying one elevan and one twenty.
So it gives another avenue to utilize your best and another shot with them.
Scott
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Missouri-Flyer
358 posts
Mar 16, 2007
7:55 PM
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Thanks Scott,
That was great information!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1075 posts
Mar 17, 2007
4:11 AM
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Scott. You said:
But you cannot use any of the same birds if flying two elevans or two twentys , but you can use the same birds if flying one elevan and one twenty.
I had never heard this.Is this in the Fly Rules? David
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motherlodelofts
1578 posts
Mar 17, 2007
6:50 AM
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Dave , they are considered two seperate flys.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1076 posts
Mar 17, 2007
7:58 AM
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Scott. I still don't understand. David
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fhtfire
838 posts
Mar 17, 2007
8:33 AM
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David,
If you fly a 20 and an 11 bird...they are two different different flys....it is like entering a cricket game and a baseball game...kind of the same but different...so you can use the same birds on both....but if you enter two 20 bird teams....then you are entering two baseball teams in the same tournament...you can't switch players around.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1077 posts
Mar 17, 2007
11:10 AM
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Paul.Where does it say this in the rules.Did I miss that part? This is the first I ever heard anything about and I have flown for 2 years.No judge ever checked my birds to see if I was flying the same birds.David
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motherlodelofts
1579 posts
Mar 17, 2007
5:11 PM
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Dave, most judges won't check, kind of an honor system, unless a judge feels a need to check.
Scott
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fhtfire
844 posts
Mar 17, 2007
5:57 PM
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David,
This is out of the world cup rules.
I. A region must enter a minimum of 15 kits to qualify as an independent entity. At the discretion of the particular region, a flyer may enter a maximum of 2 kits composed of completely different birds as long as other flyers are not disadvantaged by the schedule. One fly-off representative is granted for the first 15 kits entered plus another for additional 15 kits up to a maximum of 5 total. The Regional Director also gets one World Cup Committee vote for each fly-off representative and may distribute the votes as he wishes. This policy encourages growth of a region until it becomes so large that it should split.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
1581 posts
Mar 17, 2007
6:33 PM
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W/C and NBRC are different orgs. , Dave if you flew some of the same , we will have to break a finger for each bird as per artical 15-6B .
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2007 7:14 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1079 posts
Mar 18, 2007
5:22 AM
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Paul,Scott. Since the WC dosn't have an 11 bird fly their rules can't apply here.Is there anywhere in the NBRC rules about this? David
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motherlodelofts
1582 posts
Mar 18, 2007
6:16 AM
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Dave, yes it is in the NBRC rules .
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1583 posts
Mar 18, 2007
6:35 AM
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Dave, you are looking at fly rules , it is in the bylaws or something, trust me it is there.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1082 posts
Mar 18, 2007
6:44 AM
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Scott.I am not from Missouri but you will have to show me.LOL. I have read and reread both the By laws and the fly rules and I still can't find it.And that is what we are talking about anyway is Fly Rules.Right? David
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Velo99
984 posts
Mar 18, 2007
6:55 AM
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Dave,
I have done a little research on this subject too. I couldn`t find any rules governing the birds used in any fly other than the limits in the number of birds allowed.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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motherlodelofts
1584 posts
Mar 18, 2007
3:22 PM
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Dave, I'm looking into it , the NBRC allways flew by W/C rules, they changed from that a couple of years ago (fly rules)I am assuming that they remembered to add that in also and didn't over look it, pretty doubtful though.
I am assuming it is in the fly regulation's where it says that you can enter two kits, just not sure where that is , Cliff should know , but I'm trying to find out also.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2007 3:32 PM
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motherlodelofts
1585 posts
Mar 18, 2007
4:46 PM
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Dave , you cannot fly the same birds, you can only fly two kits ,I can assure you of that, you aren't going to loose 11 fingers are you ?
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2007 5:47 PM
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knaylor
466 posts
Mar 18, 2007
6:49 PM
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Actually its not there any more maybe Cliff can explain why???? Also why would anyone want to fly the same birds twice???
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1084 posts
Mar 18, 2007
7:10 PM
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It's not a question of weither or not anyone wants to fly the same birds.Scott said it was in the rules.It is not and has not been since I have been a member of NBRC.
And to think Scott would have removed my finger if I did.LOL. David
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Velo99
987 posts
Mar 18, 2007
7:28 PM
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Ok Guys,
I got an official ruling from Juan
Kenny:
You bring up an interesting point…
You can fly the same birds from your 11 bird in your 20 bird teams (or vice versa), because the kits are in separate competitions.
What is interesting is that your question got me to review our fly rules and in fact there is no specific rule in writing that states that you can’t fly the same birds in your second competing team in either competition. It has generally been understood that someone is not to fly any of the same birds in his second kit, but this needs to be added in writing.
Thanks for you inquiry,
Juan R. Navarro
NBRC President
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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motherlodelofts
1586 posts
Mar 18, 2007
9:46 PM
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Good job Kenny , I imagine you'll see it straightened out now , looks like something was missed when the rules were seperated from the W/C rules.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1587 posts
Mar 18, 2007
9:49 PM
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"Actually its not there any more maybe Cliff can explain why???? Also why would anyone want to fly the same birds twice??? "
I would like two shots with my best !!!
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1085 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:48 AM
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Boy won't that turn out to be a big deal.LOL.I guess the EC will have to get together and then have the membership vote on it as a revision to the Fly Rules.
Scott you can have 2 shots with your best team unless it is changed before the next fly.Just have your second kit set up to fly on different days.And no fingers lost either.LOL. David
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 3:55 AM
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Ballrollers
724 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:04 AM
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Gentlemen,
There is nothing written in our fly rules to prevent a person from flying the same birds in the 20-bird or the 11-bird or a combination of the two. As has been posted, the WC has a rule that says that your 2nd entry must be made up of completely different birds, but the NBRC has no such rule. Personally, if everyone had to fly their kits back to back, I wouldn't have a problem with a person flying the same birds. If he can beat me under those conditions, more power to him! However, in a case where the judge stays overnight, and the flyer flys one kit it the evening and the same kit the next morning, that would be an unfair advantage. Even if they were allowed to rest several hours and ten flown again, it would still be unfair. So, given the fact ahat all flyers are not allotted the same fly times, it would not be fair to allow the same bitds to be flown in either the 20 or the 11 birds flys, or any combination of the two. As it currently exists, it is only gentlemen's agreement and convention or tradition that governs this.
Here's the kicker. Say we write a rule that says you can't fly the same birds...Who is supposed to police this? To totally prevent it, we would have to record the band numbers of the kits being flown and they would have to be checked to insure the same birds are not flown again. Unless our judges start carrying computers, it would still be difficult to compare lists of birds unless they were sorted to make things easier. I know that some of the California regions have their 20 bird flys 1 weekend and their 11 bird flys the next weekend and may use different judges, so preventing this will be difficult. I suggest this is the reason the WC doesn't check bands. Maybe Dave can give us his perspective on the WC's position on this.
The NBRC Executive Committee is aware of this glitch and are currently debating it. There are a number of other gray areas that need to be addressed, as well.
YITS,
Cliff Ball
National Fly Director
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 9:38 AM
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motherlodelofts
1590 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:16 AM
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Whoa Cliff , you need to back up here and find out what's going on and where it went or is , never have we been able to fly the same birds except if you are flying both the eleven and the twenty, and that is because they are seperate flys.
Where are the regulations saying that you can fly two kits ?
Cliff , do you mind if I paste this (your response) to the lists so that we can try and get a definate on this , and find out where it went , or is ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 9:20 AM
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Ballrollers
725 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:31 AM
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Scott,
These are the facts. You might as well accept it. Getting other men to express an opinion as to how they have alwats done things..or what they think, at this point, is irrelevant and might be counter-productive. I prefer that you don't paste this on other lists, at this point, because it is currently being discussed among members of the EC, Alex (prior Fly Director), Juan and Eldon (current and prior NBRC Presidents), myself and others; and it is frowned upon to make it a habit of discussing business on internet lists, while it is in progress. Please do so privately, for now. I will keep roller-pigeon.com informed. The issue is whether to convene a new Fly Rule Committee or deal with these issues one at a time as we become aware of them.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 9:40 AM
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knaylor
467 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:35 AM
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Cliff, why would you want to bring the w/c into a problem the NBRC has with a rule being deleted or left out when the rules were changed?? Fact is the w/c judge can check bands if he wishes.. Most dont because they trust the flyers. Lets just work on getting the problem fixed!!!
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Ballrollers
726 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:41 AM
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Kevin,
I bring up the World Cup, because many flyers have trouble separating the two organizations and their separate fly rules in their minds, and to point out the difference between the two on this particular ruling, for the sake of clarification. It is the confusion between the two fly rules that has brought about this conventional way of conducting the NBRC National Fly. And you are right...we have always just trusted the flyers in both organizations. But the question was asked, "What do the rules say?" So that is what I am reporting to you.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 9:45 AM
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motherlodelofts
1592 posts
Mar 19, 2007
10:09 AM
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"Scott,
These are the facts. You might as well accept it. Getting other men to express an opinion as to how they have alwats done things..or what they think, at this point, is irrelevant and might be counter-productive. I prefer that you don't paste this on other lists, at this point, because it is currently being discussed among members of the EC, Alex (prior Fly Director), Juan and Eldon (current and prior NBRC Presidents), myself and others; and it is frowned upon to make it a habit of discussing business on internet lists, while it is in progress. Please do so privately, for now. I will keep roller-pigeon.com informed. The issue is whether to convene a new Fly Rule Committee or deal with these issues one at a time as we become aware of them.
YITS,
Cliff "
Cliff , that why asked (to paste) ,obviously there is a discrepancy that needed to be dealt with as it "no" longer deals with it either way ,and it has nothing do with "facts" something was missed somewhere , and quite recently , if it wasn't then you guys wouldn't be dealing with it right now , and I am pretty certain of what the out come will be.
And to be honest , this little "new glitch" throws un fairness on the entire fly if not solved, as some regions can re fly the same teams on different days (some a few days later) while others cannot , in this region we could , but it will be resolved and be put in writing again that the same birds cannot be flown , except if flying one of each (11 and 20)this one was never in writing though I believe , it just never said that you couldn't and was looked at as two seperate flys.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 11:10 AM
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Ballrollers
727 posts
Mar 19, 2007
10:58 AM
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Scott,
It sounds like you have a pretty fair idea of the problem now...except for your references to "quite recently". These fly rules have been in effect for several years now.
And we are dealing with it (the EC), primarily because of this discussion thread and the fact that Kenny (rnh) contacted Juan and me privately with the question, and we found that the Fly Rules and By-laws, in their current form and as they presently read, do not deal with this issue adequately; that it has been handled through "trusting the flyers" in the past, as in the WC, and that the door is open for potential abuse, though none has even been alleged or proved.
As you can imagine, it is very difficult to get agreement on these issues in a committee. Men have many different opinons and feel very strongly about them. (Imagine that! LOL!) Many areas were simply not addressed in the past, or left up to the honesty of men,and the discretion of the judge.
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 11:12 AM
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motherlodelofts
1593 posts
Mar 19, 2007
11:09 AM
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Cliff , that is recently , there have only been what, two flys since the change ? it was just over looked when the rules went a different way from W/C , and no one caught it because they just figured it was there , otherwise it would have came up prior to this.
It is just the way it is, just needs to be dealt with is all, which is what is happening.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 11:12 AM
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Ballrollers
728 posts
Mar 19, 2007
11:11 AM
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Scott,
OK, I understand what you mean.....
Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1088 posts
Mar 19, 2007
11:29 AM
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Cliff. You said:
that it has been handled through "trusting the flyers" in the past, as in the WC, and that the door is open for potential abuse, though none has even been alleged or proved.
How does a newcomer(like myself) to competitions ever know they are not suppose to fly different birds."Trusting the flyers" in the past just don't get it for me.I get tired of hearing terms like Trust,Code,Ethics etc.
Either it is a rule or not.Trust,Code,Ethics come after the rule not some unspoken word that someone in the past said and was handed down thru veteran flyers.
If Scott had not made the statement he did and I questioned him on it how long would this have went unnoticed?
Or was it in fact dropped from the rules when the rules were changed a few years ago on purpose? David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1089 posts
Mar 19, 2007
12:06 PM
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Scott. You said:
but it will be resolved and be put in writing again(never was in writing for the NBRC,david) that the same birds cannot be flown , except if flying one of each (11 and 20)this one was never in writing though I believe , it just never said that you couldn't and was looked at as two seperate flys.
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.Who decides it is right or wrong just because the rules don't say so? David
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 12:42 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1267 posts
Mar 19, 2007
12:12 PM
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Hell no, leave the rules as they are! I always enter two teams and usually they fly three or four days apart from one another. Granted they are always 20 bird kits. I don't fly that boring 11 bird stuff. Now I can honestly buck the system and fly my good kit a second time if they bomb on the first time, or just fly them again anyways. Hell yah, I want a piece of that action for my money!...LOL. J/K
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1090 posts
Mar 19, 2007
12:38 PM
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Brian.I fly 2 kits in the boring 11 bird fly.However I can't use the loophole in the rules because I am so far out in the sticks that I fly both kits back to back.But I would for sure do it if I could have my kits scheduled for different days.It would increase the odds of winning.
I am sure glad this came out in the open before someone did do it and then be DQed because of it.LOL.But I guess it is legal as of now. David
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REEDM
9 posts
Mar 19, 2007
12:54 PM
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It is written somewhere. I am not at home but I am betting it is in the July-August or September-October Bulletin where it talks about how many kits you may enter and how many kits are needed to get a qualifier in the finals. I wish I had them here. To the best of my knowledge it was not posted on the website, but it comes out in the Bulletins when it is closer to Fall Fly time.
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Great rollers come from great rollermen,
great rollermen fly in competitions.
Anyone can fly a good kit of rollers by accident,
great rollermen can fly a good kit on fly day.
Mitch
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1268 posts
Mar 19, 2007
1:07 PM
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Dave, I was being faceous..lol
I don't have my old bulletins here at work to confirm against what was and what is, but per as they read now, a person can enter as many kits as they want, and fly the same if they want. I know it is a simple oversight as has been described above, but I am just making a point that any flyer could "technically" dispute any RD who dictates a set number of kits. An example of which would be what happened here last year. A flyer who lives on the border between two local regions was solicited to fly by both regions. He flew one kit in one, then flew two kits in the other, one of the kits in the second region was the same kit from the first region. Basically he flew three kits and in two different regions. First his third kit score was disqualified because it was said he surpassed the maximum of two kits entered. I don't believe anything was mentioned about him flying in two different regions though. All of that really didn't matter in the end because he wasn't an NBRC member at the time of flying, therefore ALL of his scores wouldn't count.
It has been set in stone for as long as I've been flying that a flyer can only fly two kits of his choosing in the FF and if flying two of the same, the individual cannot fly the same birds in his second kit that he flew in his first. I recall this was addressed in the previous rules, and perhaps it is in some level of guidelines that simply are not published on the NBRC website. I[m sure this will be corrected in short order.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1091 posts
Mar 19, 2007
1:17 PM
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Before the Fall Fly rules were revised they used the WC rules which does state this.However when the rules were revised from the old to the new this was not mentioned in either set of rules.Existing rules or proposed rules.This is what the membership voted on.David
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Ballrollers
729 posts
Mar 19, 2007
1:43 PM
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No doubt about it, David, rules is rules! We need them, and the more precisely things are defined, the less room there is for abuse. I guess if it had not been noticed in this thread, it would have gone unnoticed until it was noticed by somebody else! LOL! All we can do is deal with the things we are aware of, in the hobby......Not much we can do about the things we don't even know about!! And I assure you that it was an oversight.....by the entire membership! (Remember, the entire membership votes on Fly Rule Changes.) Where were all you perceptive guys when the Fly Rules were put up for a vote?? LOL! It, obviously, went unnoticed by everyone when it was passed.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 1:50 PM
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Ballrollers
730 posts
Mar 19, 2007
1:56 PM
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Brian,
That fellow was a new flyer and we were trying not to to bust his chops too bad. He was either confused or taking advantage of the system. It was getting very sticky to deal with, because I believe he qualified in one of the regions. The fact that he was not yet an NBRC member bailed us out of making some difficult decisions. This is another area where "trust" comes in to play. Men who live closer to groups of flyers in another region are permitted to fly in that region instead of the region in which they reside. It's always been done that way.......no problem, but this year, it was almost a big problem.....Like I said...there are many "gray" areas we have to deal with in some fashion.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 1:58 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1092 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:11 PM
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Cliff.When I voted on the New Fly rules it was my first time voting in the NBRC.All I voted on was what was presented to me.There was nothing in the old existing rules that stated this so how was I to know any difference.As I said before once a rule is in place then the Trust comes into play.
Apparently there never was this stipulation in the 11 bird fly at anytime since the NBRC started it?
I even had a judge tell me something here in my yard and the rule he stated was a WC rule and had nothing to do with the NBRC Rules.This had nothing to do with my 11 bird fly but I found it interesting that had I been flying a 20 bird kit I would have been DQed.
Scott being a Judge thought this flying same birds was a rule. Another example of what if it had happened.David
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motherlodelofts
1594 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:31 PM
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Dave , it has allways been a policy that you cannot fly the same birds , and like Mitch stated , it is in the fly guide line's or somewhere (we think LOL), some think that it was old the old site and never got moved over to the new one.
It is no big deal though and is now being addressed where it will be cut and dry for all to see.
If I was judgeing and it came up I would not allow the same birds to be flown regardless as it isn't addressed one way or the other , that would be my call.
But I can assure you one thing, if there is a hole open or a grey area , it will be taken advantage of , that is why the W/C commitee worked so hard at closing the grey area's 4-5 years ago.
Personaly, I think we all did a good job here !!!!
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 2:33 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1093 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:00 PM
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Scott. I do a lot of studying and research.I have read everything I can about the NBRC.Only being a member for a couple years I don't have any bulletins beyond that.It was never mentioned in the 11 bird fly in the bulletins or on the website when it was voted on that I can find.If someone can prove otherwise I wish they would do so.
So if you were judging me in an 11 bird fly and I was going to fly the same birds in both kits you are saying you wouldn't let me fly?
How can you take the rules and bend them according to your understanding? You would be wrong under the present rules even if it did state it in the old rules.You as a judge have to abide by the rules the same as I do.The rules now is what the membership approved and unless it is voted on again they stand as they are.
Other than that I agree with you that we done really good on this one.At least we will get this one corrected if nothing else.LOL. David
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Ballrollers
732 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:01 PM
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I think you are right, Scott...a policy or tradition....but not a written rule. I'm talking about the actual written NBRC Fly Rules...not websites. I would hope that the Fly Rules posted on the NBRC websites are consistant with the actual rules, however. And you are right about everyone doing a great job bringing this to light. I'd like to hear more of this kind of thing from the guys "in the trenches." And it speaks to the value of this site as a communication tool....
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 3:11 PM
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