Hector Coya
151 posts
Apr 09, 2007
4:28 PM
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Yes i have Ray.
Hector C
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Gregg
80 posts
Apr 09, 2007
7:30 PM
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Keith,
I think I've sold birds three, maybe four times in my thirty seven years with rollers. I've given away more than I can count. The best birds I ever got were free. I still think that is the way to do it. Doesn't mean you give your loft away, but you will find that most of the good guys out there aren't in it for the bucks. But when someone steps out of nowhere and says I'll give you $XXX$$, then your a fool if his money isn't in your back pocket when he leaves. A friend of mine "reportedly" passed on three thousand dollars for one bird. I told him I didn't know which one was the fool: the guy for offering or him for not taking it.
Gregg.
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nicksiders
1563 posts
Apr 09, 2007
9:31 PM
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I don't sell nor do I give away many. I keep the best and throw away the rest basically. The ones I keep go by way of preditors; overflys; and old age. I breed no more than I can handle. Right now I don't have alot of birds from the move to Arkansas; preditors, and overflys. I will never have more than 4 full kits of birds. The most I have ever had was two full kits and a squeeker kit. As I promote I demote or terminate. I Keep it lean. I am not a collector of birds.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2007 9:33 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
48 posts
Apr 10, 2007
3:36 AM
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Scott... I acquired the birds from Dan Smith.
MEMO: It's about 3:36 a.m. here on the west coast and I'm headed outside now with a flashlight in order to do the eyesign business. I go strictly by the book.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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motherlodelofts
1700 posts
Apr 10, 2007
7:04 AM
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Well you are motivated,I gotta give you that.
Scott
PS dont forget your Keel gauge
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2007 7:12 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
59 posts
Apr 14, 2007
2:08 AM
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Good morning Scott...
This Keel gauge you speak of... were you serious or joking? Because I have been using my hands to feel the birds keel.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
71 posts
May 02, 2007
7:17 PM
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I remember talking to Juan Navarro 2 years ago about rollers and specific band numbers of birds that were considered to be exceptional performers.
I forgot who the fella's name was that knew band numbers of pratically every champion that W.H. Pensom showcased.
QUESTION: Does anybody around here know of the band numbers (and breeders/flyers) of Champions (or shall I say exceptional performers) during the Pensom, Plona, Smith, Hilton, McCully, Perkins, Graham and Whittingham eras?
I'm patient and will diligently wait for a response....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 17, 2007 5:58 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
89 posts
May 16, 2007
7:36 PM
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QUESTION: How does one know they have a CHAMPION and not just a damm good aerial performer?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1384 posts
May 16, 2007
8:24 PM
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A Champion roller is in the eye of the beholder. That is really what it boils down to.
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Spud
109 posts
May 17, 2007
4:29 AM
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Marcus, you will find the keel guage in David Kowalski's book "True Spinning Rollers".
Spud
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1302 posts
May 17, 2007
8:20 AM
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Let's take a different tack on this thread and respond to this question:
What traits or characteristics will a CHAMPION MOST CERTAINLY NOT HAVE?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerman132
95 posts
May 17, 2007
8:56 AM
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Milo,
The Kiser/Borges birds are mostly 514, 1028, 272 stuff, not Plona. What’s wrong with Plona birds? they all go back to Smith.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1304 posts
May 17, 2007
9:09 AM
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When is the last time Plona had birds?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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DeepSpinLofts
90 posts
May 17, 2007
10:27 AM
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Thanks Tony. That's why when I was in Southern California a few years ago... Juan Navarro & Terry Duncan were holding their thumbs and fingers along the keel of their birds.... something to do with what??? I have totally forgot. Guess I should have paid better attention to what was going on at the time.
So you say I can learn more from David Kowalski's book ehh...
What is David Kowalski doing these days? Is he still breeding, training and flying Birmingham Rollers?
Hey Rollerman.... you say Plona's birds all go back to Smith correct? Then who does Jaconettes birds go back to? Was it Perkins? Trying to get this stuff in my data banks.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1305 posts
May 17, 2007
10:46 AM
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Hey Marcus, I have spoken several times to David over the last 12 months. He is a fine gentleman and informative fellow. He is still into pigeons. I will leave it at that.
His book provides more insight in any one place besides this forum than I have seen anywhere. I don't know why more people do not have a pigeon reference library (specifically rollers) than seem to now.
My opinion is a new hobbyist will only benefit from such a resource. Experienced breeders already know it all. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on May 17, 2007 10:47 AM
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rollerman132
96 posts
May 17, 2007
1:54 PM
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Marcus,
Your right about the Jaconettes going back to Perkins, he also used a lot of key Smith birds to develop his strain. Smith was Plona’s mentor back in the day, and got most if not all his birds from Smith.
Tony,
I would say 1978 was the last time Plona flew a kit of birds. I know what you’re trying to say Tony, but I have to give credit where credit is due, out of respect for the man and his birds.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2007 1:59 PM
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nicksiders
1692 posts
May 17, 2007
2:25 PM
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Pensom and Smith gave birds back and forth; Plona got his birds from Smith; Cooper got his birds from Pensom; Nieble got his birds from Cooper; Weins got his birds from Nieble; so on and so forth.....there is a common event here, I think. What do you think?
There are others in the circle and the circle always goes through Pensom and/or Smith somehow someway at one time or another. Wheels within a wheel; around and around they go; all interconnected; all meshed together. I think we need to revisit the birds from Black County, England and purge ourselfs of the shit that many have have put into the Birmingham Roller and start anew.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on May 17, 2007 2:34 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
91 posts
May 17, 2007
6:25 PM
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Exerpt From the Great Ken Easley
"THE CHAMPION" Sent to the NBRC 7/25/00
"All of the champions that I have seen (and they were very few) were tightly wedge shaped, and low on the leg with wing butts showing. This type adds to the overall control a stable bird will have. An extra enhancement if you will. When held in the hand, the body feels compact. The keel feels not too long in fact short with a good pitch or angled toward the vent bones with a small space between the two. The depth is apple-ish feeling, not real deep or shallow, but having some depth in the front. The tail is tight and usually rigid and the bird will be aware of itself including the tail. The tail has a hingy quality wherein if you are holding the bird in a way to allow the tail freedom, it will pop up at a ninety-degree angle. The tail acts as a rudder, (not brakes) and helps the bird to have greater control of direction coming out of the roll and the ability to ball up tight in the roll.
It will be noticed on most of the best birds that the wing butts will be noticeable, giving the appearance of a strong athlete. The head shape is personal preference only. I like them with a slightly flat spot on the top with a good medium length beak. The eyes may be any color or multi-colored with a good strong sheen. Looking as though they possess intelligence and good health. The slight look of almost arrogance can be seen. Liken to that of an eagle, but not to that extent. The bird should be calm with a ready to go look as if he or she is confident and ready to make adjustments to the situation. The low profile look. (Very slightly stealthy) Before they settle down in a show pen it will be noticed that the best will tipi toe just for a second. Some may laugh or make light of these statements.
I have had rollers in excess of thirty years and can assure you they all have personalities and fine detailed observation will allow some to understand them. If one is unable to make such observations, they should not worry. It is not necessary to raise champions. The champion will be noticed by any and all that views them in the air. One of the reasons that very few are to be seen is the fact that most of the better breeders will lock them up in the breeding pen after their second season, as they should. Should you see a breeder that claims all birds in the stock pen are champions as described above, let caution be the guide. Should a fellow truly have more than three or four of such birds, then he knows the roller well."
===================================================
===================================================
{P.S.} I was overwhelmed by Tony's reference to the keel guage in David Kowalski's book "True Spinning Rollers". So decided to go through some of my archives and waahlah... up pops some very intellectual roller writings by Kenneth Easley of New Mexico.
NOTE: On Ken's website with several pictures of proven birds he states; "My Family of birds are down off the Pensom stock as seen in his book, "The Birmingham Roller" by W. H. Pensom, Birds pictured such as 514, 183, 5610, 743, 230, the Crystal Palace and others."
....also
"They have been kept pure and bred and selected for performance. My goal is to maintain and improve a family of birds that are strong, vigorous, and stable with a lot of roll, that work as a unit."
In conclusion let me add that I try to closely follow breeders/flyers who reportedly have a quality line of 514 genes in their lofts. Not that it might mean anything except for my own personal experimental purposes. I feel the only way to get better at this is by breeding, training, flying and learning through trial & error.
One thing is for certain.... Ken know's his stuff!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 17, 2007 6:27 PM
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fhtfire
960 posts
May 18, 2007
11:52 PM
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Of course...beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!! But to have a Champion that is not true. A Champion...I feel should never be judged by the owner or how can I put it....kind of like judging your kids...they will always be a little better then they actually are...hope that makes sense...a true Champion is judged by others.
I have raised plenty of Champion livestock back when I was a wee young lad....that could barely piss foam...LOL....anyway...it was a judge or your fellow breeders that would put my stock in the Champion status.
So for livestock to be a true Champion..they are judged by a sactioned body....with set standards....but that is hard to do with a performance breed like the roller.....Field trials for dogs...now that is kind of like the roller...they are based on performance to be a field champion....but like with any animal...they can be a champion on paper...but a true champion is one that produces champions or is a strong breeder the fixes faults.....So when you see a pedigree and that bird....or goat....or dog is in the pedigree and it produced champions....and those champions produced champions...then the animals that produce and meet the standard are the true champions.
I recently posted a Lavender Cock a week back...and to me that bird is a champion....but I call it a champion...because everybody that has seen my kit fly...pick that bird out in a second...from the newbies to the old timers...they all pick out that Lavender. Guil Rand, Mort Emami, Ken Firl, Chor Vang, Chuck Roe, Dwight Wallace, Bill Crider...and so on....they all picked out that bird from the air....Even Brian Middaugh...picked him out and even commented on how deep that bird was....I did not use the names to stroke anything...I am just saying....I thought the bird was good...and I even wrote..possible champion in my notes....but when all these other fanciers...picked that bird out of the kit...or would ask me if he was a lavender or a grizzle or just talked about him...that is when you know you have the makings of a champion...I stocked that bird...and if he produces as good or better then himself..then he is a true champion....I have bred 500+ birds and that bird is the best I have bred....not to just my standards...but everybody else noticed.
It is all about....everyone else noticing without you saying a word...and if it is different flys and different fanciers saying the same thing about the same bird...that is when you have a champion....It works the same in other animals...I had a Champion milker(goat)...and everywhere I went...people would talk about Irish Lady...Her offspring were just as good....even though she won the ribbon from a judge on that day...it is my fellow breeders talking so highly of the little doe...that made her my Champion.
Anyway....your fellow fanciers will tell you what bird is a champion....and you will call it a champion when those same fanciers are talking about the offspring...years later the same way they talked of the original bird..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
1696 posts
May 19, 2007
9:22 AM
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Paul,
That lavender has potential.............LOL
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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DeepSpinLofts
92 posts
May 20, 2007
7:25 AM
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Flying a kit only of champion performers???
Please don't think I'm trying to be a wiseguy here. I was just wondering has anyone ever flew.... or claimed to have flown a certified kit of only champion roller pigeons whether it be a 6 bird, 11 bird, 16 bird or 20 bird kit in a competiton?
...or
Did the claimant of a certified champion kit simply fly them for the love of the sport?
What we talking about here is 20 birds all breaking at the same time ( at least 20 feet in depth or more in an incredibly tight & lightning fast gyration of high velocity) twice per minute for roughly 18 minutes or more.
Has it ever occurred?
Marcus
Ddeep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 7:29 AM
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MILO
339 posts
May 20, 2007
7:54 AM
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Noboday ever has, and nobody ever will.
c
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motherlodelofts
1786 posts
May 20, 2007
11:22 AM
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I have never seen a champ. but I have seen some very nice birds here and there.
Marcus , the cert. is only as good as who ever cert. the bird , I am not impressed with such birds unless I see them myself.
Scott
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fhtfire
969 posts
May 20, 2007
6:17 PM
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Scott,
I hate to break the new to you...but I think you have a champion or two in your stock loft right now...I know you have a bird that was fast, deep, kitted like glue, excellent quality, never bumped and a heart like a lion.....and you pulled the "potential Champoin" and put it in your stock loft...and low and behold...that little bastard...produced some damn good birds some as good a some better.....I know you have that....that is a Champion....no cert....no signature...that is just what you call it....I am sure you have one of those...you would not have the birds you have...unless you had a champion or two.
rock and ROLL
Paul
I don't think a Champion is a piece of paper....the champion is the bird that you would never sell for any amount of money....you are proud of....everybody would take that bird in a second...and it stands out in the kit like a sore thumb....again..not a piece of paper...or a ribbon.
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DeepSpinLofts
93 posts
May 21, 2007
4:51 PM
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Paul you make a lot of sense. I know for certain that a champion performing roller pigeon is not something intangible such as only a piece of paper. Today's champion roller is a superbly bred and unique living specimen of the bird family Columbidae (which includes doves and pigeons).
Ahh yes.... the Roller or I should say the Tumbler pigeon has come a long way since its beginnings centuries (probably thousands of years ago) in Asia. Definitely these fine feathered aerial performers have evolved into a gymnastic high-flying work of art by mankind.
Since breeding Tumblers for competition is not our forte, then the question is this: How does one go about the grueling task of breeding, training & flying champion rollers?
I guess it all evolves around locating that outstanding performing roller pigeon or two that is full of spin.... mentally & physically stable enough to be stocked.... and produces quality peformers.
Most important, these outstanding rollers need to be pre potent which means they will produce on "any decent pigeon", and the siblings need to do the same (the good one's).
I have been dealing with roller pigeons since I was age 10 during the 70's. Over the years I've learned that in order to breed a champion performer of high caliber.... we must seek out and effortlessly try to discover any particular genetic flaws in our birds that we are producing. The tighter the biogenetic pool.... the easier the task can be to simultneously bring it all together in a grand champion style.
BREEDING CHAMPION ROLLERS
Step 1: Start with the best cock bird you can get
Step 2: Pair it with a good hen (preferably same family)
Step 3: Produce many hens from this pair and fly them out
Step 4: Pick the best hen and pair it back to its father
Step 5: Repeat step 3-4-5
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 21, 2007 5:01 PM
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fhtfire
986 posts
May 21, 2007
4:54 PM
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Marcus....A true Champion or what I think is a Champion are few and far in between...but when you have one you know it....Good luck...my brother!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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kcfirl
114 posts
May 21, 2007
5:01 PM
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Marcus,
if the best youngster is a cock, and I breed him back to his mother and repeat, can that also produce a champion?
Ken
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motherlodelofts
1814 posts
May 21, 2007
5:05 PM
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You can't road map breed these birds , it doesn't work that way.
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
94 posts
May 21, 2007
5:28 PM
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Ken... it all comes down to molecular genetics.... and how much of the super-rogene which can be combined in order to produce more birds carrying these type genes.
Every family is a little different. So the logical thing to do is simply try it out Ken and tell us how it works for you.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Hector Coya
159 posts
May 21, 2007
5:39 PM
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some of you guys use the word Champion too loosely,back in the old days they flew 4 birds one of which was to be judege for his perfomance and quality,how can you call a bird a Champion when it hasnt competed indevidualy against anyone elses.
It's like calling an NBA team WORLD Champions when they only played US teams.
HECTOR C
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George Ruiz
295 posts
May 21, 2007
8:02 PM
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I have never seen a champion just some real good birds
George
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motherlodelofts
1815 posts
May 21, 2007
9:22 PM
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Hector ,I'm not sure that competeing it with others means a whole lot either , what if they are "all" chumps and one is just a better chump.
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2007 9:23 PM
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DHenderson
66 posts
May 21, 2007
10:57 PM
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Champions are rare that is for sure, but you should have your own idea of what a Champion is in your loft, no one else to tell you this.
So as Scott says they are only as good as the one calling it a Champion.
It's a goal you set for you own birds, either an aerial champion or producing Champion, we know there are more out then then guys fess up too within their own lofts.
If you have a pair that produces 50% of it's babies better then the parents or a single bird that produces exceptional spinners of more then just a couple of birds then you might have a champion but this is for you to discover in your own loft.
Make up a goal on paper, if you have a bird that can make all those goals it might be an aerial champion or stock loft champion. Don't make these goals easy either, take the best you have and make this standard just a little better and you have your ideal pigeon, if it's a champion ot you then who are we to criticize you for that.
Dave
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DA Henderson Roller Lofts
A Tight Kitting High Velocity Family
www.freewebs.com/spintight
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DeepSpinLofts
96 posts
May 23, 2007
4:09 AM
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Great post Dave! Here on the west coast you are higly regarded as a dedicated roller man and a good family man too.
I must say that was a well understood process you stated in regards to trying to breed top notch spinners.... and if lucky.... maybe a champion aerial performer or 2 along the way.
Like I stated in a previous message on this thread: "In order to breed a champion performer of high caliber.... we must seek out and effortlessly try to discover any particular genetic flaws in our birds that we are producing. The tighter the biogenetic pool.... the easier the task can be to simultneously bring it all together in a grand champion style."
On that note, any sound advice you have in regards to the sport of breeding, training and flying performing pigeons is definitely worth its weight in gold.
{P.S.} Speaking of champions, how are those offspring looking out of that HFRF hen?
I'm referring to that 30ft-40ft smoker
Keep'em flyin and let the good times roll...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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nicksiders
1721 posts
May 23, 2007
12:00 PM
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No champions; just potential champions? What a sad, sad, sad thing.
Nick
PS Did you ever notice that in the South you say the same word three times when you develope a positive sence for it. "He is a good, good, good man" "It was a sad, sad, sad day" "amen, amen, and amen" - when closing a prayer.
This changes when somebody dies. They just say "he is graveyard dead". That means he is as dead as you can get, you know; really dead.
I am starting to use those terms as well...it is not always good to be a "damn yankee" in the south so to establish my credibility I often talk like that there.
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 12:13 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
99 posts
Jun 06, 2007
9:36 AM
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Breeding the best possible spin +15ft (with control) to the best possible spin +25ft (with control) is probably the best way to get a champion in the loft. Once you have one... stock it and don't fly it!
JMO
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
115 posts
Jun 20, 2007
3:24 AM
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Ken Firl above asks:
"Marcus,
if the best youngster is a cock, and I breed him back to his mother and repeat, can that also produce a champion?"
Hmmm.... now that's a very good question. I would have to say yes there's a possibility if your best youngster is a cock, and you breed him back to his mother and repeat this process..., that a champion can be produced
....however
I don't know how many rounds of this Biogenetic method of breeding will it take for you to arrive at the champion in the brood.
Later....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2007 3:26 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
124 posts
Aug 08, 2007
3:29 AM
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Just a reminder:
====> Breeding, training & flying a true champion performer is what we all should strive for.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
126 posts
Aug 28, 2007
2:17 AM
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Breed =====> "Best To Best"
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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BigBob
5 posts
Aug 28, 2007
8:50 AM
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I don't know Marcus and he and I are definatly from different parts of the country but he is right we are both humans and both love rollers. I know what he means when he says he is proud and doesn't want to waste the judges time and money by putting up a sub standard kit. That is the same way I felt. I will be flying in the fall fly this Sunday and it is my first national fly. I am not ready to win, and I know it. I have been back in rollers for the last 3 years and this is the first time in 30 years that I wanted to compete. One thing that I realized though was that even though my birds aren't ready to win a national title it is not wasting anyones time or money. If anything my entering the competition has helped lower the cost for the guys that are ready to win. The more people that enter kits the cheaper it gets for everyone else. And as far as wasting the judges time, have you ever been to a competition fly? These judges aren't doing it for the money or the fame, they are doing it because they love the sport and they happen to be able to schedule the time to judge. I am so looking forward to this competition just so that I can pick the judges brain. I have met our judge at two conventions and he didn't know me from Adam and he still took the time to talk to me about rollers. Any critisism I get I will consider it constructive and just maybe it will help me improve my birds enough to finish a little higher next year. And if I can just improve a little bit more each year then maybe one day I will win one of these competitions. I don't think however that I could ever do it on my own. I'm just glad I don't have to.
So if you keep waiting until you have a winning kit to fly in the world cup I am afraid you will never compete. I don't know for sure but I doubt that Heine had winning kits the first time he competed. If he did he was the exception to the rule. If he didn't win the first few years he competed I don't think anyone would say that he wasted anyones time or money doing it.
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DeepSpinLofts
140 posts
Sep 02, 2007
4:36 PM
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>>>>So if you keep waiting until you have a winning kit to fly in the world cup I am afraid you will never compete.<<<<
I heard that!
My problem in general was not worrying about whether or not I have a winning kit of roller pigeons.... but if it was okay to have guests (judges & roller enthusiasts) on my property gawking up at the sky to watch these magnificent performers. To be honest with you it wasn't. Not too long ago I had lived in a community property setting and my brother's car was towed just for parking it in front of my neighbors house for more than 2 hours. Thank gawd I'm outta there! Those pesky neighbors drove me and the birds nuts!! Me and the birds (and the wife of course) have been staying at the inlaws for nearly 7 months now.
....well anyway
I'm currently in the process of moving into a new place of residence, and when I'm settled in.... then I feel that things should be okay as far as guests & visitors are concerned. Just be patient gang.
{P.S.} It's all just a matter of time and it appears that time is on my side.
Later.....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2007 9:05 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
141 posts
Sep 02, 2007
9:08 PM
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Milo.... I don't know how good my rollers will be when people come by Deep Spin Lofts to visit me.
....however
There should be some action in the air when I release a kit or two from my lofts.
Talk to you later....
Marcus
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2007 10:21 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
147 posts
Sep 05, 2007
9:37 PM
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re: Breeding a "Champion Roller Cock" to a "Champion Roller Hen".
QUESTION: Has anyone around here done that or know of some one who has.... and if so what family of birds were they before & after the breeding of Champions?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2007 9:38 PM
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pacos bill
17 posts
Sep 08, 2007
11:18 PM
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Well guys I have been in the roller game since 1956 my birds were from Pensom they had a fast but not real fast spin with a depth of about 4 feet. We did raise a yellow or almond out of this pair, and after reading many stories that Pensom never had any almond genes in his bloodline leaves me in doubt of the base stock hen we had, or maybe I don’t know a almond when I see It. BACK TO THE POINT the rollers of today are at most about the same as then, however I feel that when you get a great roller it’s a little faster than those greats of past. The best roller I ever saw was a 78 hatch a lavender splash, I bought this cock out of the air from an old breeder in Long Beach Calif, as a 2 year old and was to me my version of a champion. This bird would roll fast 30 to 80 feet some people said over a 100 feet but I don’t think so. I called this bird drip as he looked was a lavender with black and white paint drops all over, this bird was of medium build slightly long cast with a hard apple bodie. For some reason that I still can’t figure out, I traded him off to Lloyd Johnson in Tujunga Calif. I only can guess now but I must have been assuming he would roll down but Lloyd said he never had a problem and his young were real hot splash birds as well. At his new loft he soon earned the name of Laser. The line ended up being sold to a NBRC member near Glendale and Vista Calif. OOOOPS
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DeepSpinLofts
152 posts
Sep 10, 2007
3:37 AM
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Wowsa Pacos Bill...
You have been in the roller game since 1956.... now there's someone who definitely knows good rollers when they see'em!
{P.S.} Thanks for sharing your many years of wisdom.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
163 posts
Sep 29, 2007
5:52 AM
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Biogenetic outcrossing & inbreeding of "Champion Performing Roller Bloodlines" have been successul from what I can tell.
NOTE: Some of the best spinners are generally found in the tortoishells, mottles, cheques, grizzles, badges, duns, selfs (black,white,red) & bars.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
155 posts
Sep 29, 2007
6:43 AM
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"I heard long ago that "Hall of Famers" & Champion Pigeon Breeders of performing rollers in the 50's, 60's and early 70's say that they used to put anything to anything in their breeding pens and get tons of spin from stock birds."
Marcus - This is just for historical clarification. After examining Pensom's record books with Herb Sparkes I see that he was very selective in his breeding. He did not put anything to anything to get tons of spin. Even the birds that he brought back from England in 1965 were related to his birds very closely because they were the Bellfield and Skidmore lines which his birds derived from. In his records he inbred his nucleus a lot. Raymond Perkins, Joe Hiens, J. Leroy Smith, and Stan Plona as well as their current predecessors were very selective with the gene pool that was used. Also, you did not see any Almonds colors in his records and you do not see them in the descendents of his birds today.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 9:41 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
164 posts
Sep 29, 2007
8:59 AM
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Dr. L.D.
Below are some excerpts from Hans Roettenbacher writings:
======> In order to establish a quality gene pool that will consistently produce uniformily sound rollers (presumably acceptable to mother nature) we will have to attenuate the heck out of our present stock-with nature's system in mind. Everyone has a few good birds and that's all that's necessary to begin the process. We start by e,iminating the culls. The obviuos culls are:
(1 the sick and puny birds. (nature always eliminates those first) Humans tend to treat the sick and nurse the puny. Bad idea and short-sighted!
(2 all rolldowns must go, even youngsters after thier first thump--no matter how accidental it appeared to be.
(3 Those that roll blood in thier eye's must go. (its a physiological weakness-nothing meritoriuos, as some may proclaim)
(4 Then you go after those that roll while the kit is landing and either thump the roof or just miss the edge and recover before they hit the ground and those that hit the ground, even lightly, during kit landings.
(5 The up tight easily frightened spooks have to go. ( they haven't adapted to the artificial environment and they upset the other birds.)
(6 The one that persists in landing alone on a structure higher than the one the kit is suposed to land on. (Sure, you can starve it down. But the bird obviously has a screw loose, so why bother?)
(7 Those that don't believe that birds of a feather should flock together have to go. ( thier is safety in numbers, as in schools of fish, flocks of birds, or herds of animals. If they don't know that instinctively-- Good bye!)
All of the above should be terminated with extreme prejudice. No appeal. Then there are the marginal birds that aren't exactly culls but are certainly not candidates for the stock loft gene pool. They Are;
(a. The fixed depth birds, the ones that will rip off the same goody everytime Regardless of how high the kit is, or what it's doing.
(b. The hot shots whose breast feathers are all ruffled ( like chinese owls ) from pulling out of furious spins. If they look nervous and act hyper after they get down, don't breed them. It doesn't matter that they never hit anything. They're borderline between having the roll and the roll having them. You don't want that kind of stuff in the gene pool.
(c. The infrequent and short performers. Boring, but not objectionable to M. N.
(d. anything else that isn't an obviuos cull and you enjoy watching.
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2007 9:07 AM
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big al
244 posts
Oct 02, 2007
11:47 AM
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Whew!!
Nice posts gentlemen. I really enjoyed the way Marcus and Brian were able to allow me to experience a visual because of the clever way they were able to articulate their opinions and observations.
The one thing that comes to mind for me is the huge disparity between various roller men regarding what they consider to be great in the air. I've met some incredible roller guys who really know this hobby well, and some who have been in the hobby just as long, who appear to me to have only obtained knowledge and observational skills of a novice.
An example...If you take 10 guys with 25 years in the hobby to 5 lofts, you'd be suprised how many of them would have those "Jaw dropping" experiences while watching birds that the guy next to him may consider just a little above average.
When I was a kid growing up in L.A & Carson I'd be happy getting anything that flipped over a few times from Blacksmiths Corner feed store. In later years my expectations for my birds grew as I began to meet more experienced roller men. In the eighties when Bob Scott and I became friends, I was challenged more. Then meeting and/or speaking with Campbell, Apodaca, Reed, Corderre, Fomby, Higgins, Verdugo, Emberton, MCcormick and many, many more I was able to take what I had learned over the years, and apply it to bits and pieces I got from these men and others. Again the challenge to create better rollers increased for me. What I'm saying is that for some, the description of a true champion eludes them because of the growth yet to come that will raise their standards.
So... when do you know when you've seen one? A champion? Well most of us who are flying good birds have lost more potentials than we currently own. (Unfortunately!) lol!!
The top fliers in the country and abroad have a real handle on that in more cases than not. I think Monty did. I think many here in the states do. Probably more than anywhere because of the number of quality fliers here. This is a good place to start to get an idea.
In most cases true top fliers will be in agreement on what they consider to be a champion or close to it. There may be a few variables here and there but they'll know one when they see it. So would I. lol!!
Please keep in mind that there are many others with less fame who fly comparable birds, but these people may or may not be as accessible as some of the more popular guys.
I think we'd be able to get a more accurate assesment of what one considers to be a champion by standing next to that person and watching birds together.
Sorry for the long post guys, it's been a while.----------
See you in the roll!
Allen Strother (Big Al)
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2007 12:21 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
177 posts
Oct 17, 2007
3:39 AM
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BREEDING CHAMPION ROLLERS CONT...
Step 1: Start with the best cock bird you can get
Step 2: Pair it with a good hen (preferably same family)
Step 3: Produce many hens from this pair and fly them out
Step 4: Pick the best hen and pair it back to its father
Step 5: Repeat step 3-4-5
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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