W@yne
427 posts
May 19, 2007
10:43 AM
|
On reading the score on WC website i have noticed 1 guy scored 46 breaks. Is this some kind of joke?
I think these judges or making a mockery of scoring over there or is it we over here are doing summat badly wrong?.
Please let me know whats happening with the scoring guys.
I think we need to start drug testing birds over there and the Judges also.
Lol that must be a record.
W@YNE UK.
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on May 19, 2007 2:51 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1778 posts
May 19, 2007
11:25 AM
|
I wasn't there , but It is possible , but just not probable.
The fact is we have a real problem with this kind of judging over here , and the more it is done the more new guys think that it's not only acceptable , but expected.
We are treading on dangerous ground here when activity is the winning force .
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2007 11:31 AM
|
George Ruiz
267 posts
May 19, 2007
2:17 PM
|
I dont agree that birds cant break 46 times in twenty minutes it all depends on the family of birds .
george
|
spinner jim
103 posts
May 19, 2007
3:06 PM
|
George, This is where rollers originate and if they aint doin it here they aint doin it over there,take more water with your scotch,lol,jim uk.
|
birdman
332 posts
May 19, 2007
3:28 PM
|
Monty was scored 49 breaks in the 2000 WC Finals by a European judge.
|
birdman
333 posts
May 19, 2007
4:15 PM
|
Scott,
If you read his fly report he sure believed in the score he awarded Monty at that time 100%.
What made him change his mind?
Russ
|
trevsta65
121 posts
May 19, 2007
4:32 PM
|
a few years back a friend of qualified for the world cup. he told me when the the judge came out to score his birds in the cup my friend said the scores that the judge gave him where far beyond what he had expected. almost laugthable was the quote cant remember who the judge was but i can find out lol.cheers trev
|
Alohazona
283 posts
May 19, 2007
4:52 PM
|
I think judges should hold true to their concept of judging period.Whether they are judging and giving high scores or being a hardass, is not important to me.The ethical proceess and judging consistantly to that process is the key.We are all individuals that have different experiences.So the concept that everybody should judge one way or another to me is unethical and again irrelivant.As long as the judge follows the rules and feels they did the best they did under the days conditions,I'm fine with it.T o say there is a trend is ridiculous.To my knowledge there no Roller pigeon graduate class that spits out clones to infiltrate and influence.Go back to Brian Middaughs post, to his description of his style.In my opinion it is very ethical and no-nonsense....Aloha,Todd
|
Alohazona
284 posts
May 19, 2007
4:59 PM
|
Jim,
The U.K.has had its off years like every other country...Aloha,Todd
|
kcfirl
105 posts
May 19, 2007
5:10 PM
|
I see that our finals judge awarded Gert du Plessis of SA over 700 points in the first 5 minutes of his WC finals fly.
At least we have consistency! LOL
Ken Firl
|
motherlodelofts
1783 posts
May 19, 2007
5:24 PM
|
Todd , yes they must be consistant , but there it more to it than that, with some of these judges a kit of competition tumblers would do very well with them being very consistant.
Scott
|
Steve_uk
156 posts
May 19, 2007
11:24 PM
|
Its always got to be bigger and better in the US wayne you should no that in the UK them kinda breaks would only be seen in tumbler comps red badges,mags etc.
Steve
|
W@yne
428 posts
May 20, 2007
12:04 AM
|
Todd
Like you said UK have its off years but up to last year when we divided our regions up we would only get very limited entrances each year entering for the finals. In relation to how many kits you guys enter so i don't think we have done that bad if you check the records out Todd do you? Now we have more entrances into the WC by splitting our regions up. The point is Todd i ain't saying pigeons are better over here i am saying this is not the way forward judging like that.
Ive judged WC winner peter Handy's kit on 2 occasions when they where on fire. On that occasion not reaching half of 46 breaks . Ive judged lots of flyers kits that have been in the WC top 10 on the year from the UK. This does no good for newbies starting out watching these trigger happy judges scoring birds like they do because the newbie will look for activity firstly then quality. For a bird to be counted over here it must ball up ' TIGHT ' and break with the click of the finger. Guys all i am trying to say is some of you guys are gonna have a big shock when a UK judge comes over there to judge yer birds in your WC flys they will be some very disappointed people including newbies so is this the way forward? The answer is no. Like i said before i don't think our birds are any better and i'm not trying to pick an argument i just had to give my opinion and i don't mean too offend anyone by giving my opinion.
I dont class myself as an expert in rollers by no means at all. But what i have just written ive heard the same from numerous top flyers over here many times so its not just me saying this its from most of the guys over here.
Also best of luck to all the guys that have reached the finals you guys have done yerself proud.
Regards
W@yne uk
----------
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 7:05 AM
|
spinner jim
104 posts
May 20, 2007
6:02 AM
|
Well Wayne,steve has come out of the woodwork,thought he was busy with his fantails lol,maybe he will score 46 with them ,any thing is possible ,jim.
|
Velo99
1098 posts
May 20, 2007
7:06 AM
|
Couple of quick points.
1) Each region selects its judges.
If you don`t like the way a he calls them,don`t ask him back.
2) As long as the judge is consistent in his calls, it`s all good. THERE IS NO STANDARD FOR JUDGING, other than the rules stated.
Thats why we have one finals judge. Each flyer should be aware of the differences in judges and know that his scores are reflective of each judges standards.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
motherlodelofts
1784 posts
May 20, 2007
8:22 AM
|
2) As long as the judge is consistent in his calls, it`s all good. THERE IS NO STANDARD FOR JUDGING, other than the rules stated.
Not true in on the first sentence , and as for no standard , that is far from being right, but many do judge by no standard and that is a shame.
Guys the fact is for the number of qaulifiers we have in this country we are getting our asses kicked , the reason is because to many have no standard and worry more about judges that just hand out points where there should be no points.
Scott
|
Velo99
1101 posts
May 20, 2007
9:30 AM
|
Scott,
Which leads us back to,a dare I say it,a certification program by the organizations which govern the flys. Will this lead to more confusion and unrest?
Could it add to the credibility of our sport to have certified judges? As it stands now anyone who gets an invite can judge a region in the quals regardless of experience.
Even Pee Wee league sports ref`s have a certification/training process. Are we getting ranked by the PeeWee`s?
I feel our present system has too many grey areas which lead to unstandardized results which do actually skew the perceptions of the general body of participants.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
kcfirl
107 posts
May 20, 2007
9:37 AM
|
Scott,
I have to disagree a bit you you on this one. a loose judge does absolutely nothing to encourage me to breed sloppy rollers. Acutally I believe we are getting our butts kicked because we lack discipline and focus. That is certainbly the case with me over the last few years.
I have the birds in the breeding loft, I just need to have the discipline and focus to breed more birds, keep them in when the bop's are out, and spend less tiem caring for my family and more caring for my birds. Right!
In my case, I will never sacrifice my family for my birds. clearly, some fanciers do. I think Monty was a good case in point. My God, my wife, and my kids will always come before the birds. Even so, I'm having fun and can do a whole lot better than I have while at the same time keeping my priorities straight.
I certainly see a more single minded focus on the birds ON THE AVERAGE, from the guys in Europe and South Africa than we do here. There are too many other things that hold my interest here to do nothing but the birds.
When we do get the guy that puts the birds first, we see huys in this country do exceedingly well. Oullette, Neibel, Higgins are a few of the names that come to mind.
Your friend,
Ken
PS. When I see scores like those in the soCal region and from SA so far this year, it makes me think Pensom was right when he said comp's would hasten the demise of the true BR. It's much easier to breed birds that go frequently and in big numbers than it is to breed birds that are the ultimate in speed, quality, and depth. Many 1/2 turns will always outscore a kit of the ultimate speed, style, and depth birds.
Just my opinion of course.
|
nicksiders
1699 posts
May 20, 2007
10:36 AM
|
It is scary for me when two seperate points of view both make sence to me..................damn, I wish I was smarter! It is hell going through life the way I have constantly in a mind changing flux. I have an IQ of about 68 and you guys keep screwing with my mind. That borders on somekind of cruelty.
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
motherlodelofts
1785 posts
May 20, 2007
11:15 AM
|
Kenny, we discussed this at the convention in Co. year before last , I think that Tom Monson summed it up by "we need to educate the flyers" .
It is up to the regions to better pick thier judges , if that is what they wanted (better judges), but that is not what they want.
There is a reason that every year particular regions end up with impossible scores only to have those same kits end up with less than a hundred points in the finals.
Here is whats going on out there.
1. breaks being called when there are no actual breaks, just activity
2 calling everything and not sorting out the right from the wrong(no standard).
3 paying no attention to depth
Everytime a break is "made up" a good kit is cheated , I was at one regional fly last year and I at about 2-3 min. into it to stand behind the judge , at that point there had not been a single break, just activity and most of it sloppy.
I got behind the the judge and to my amazment somehow he had given 6-8 breaks , up to that point there hadn't been anything that even resmbled a break.
The fact is better kits got beat out that day do to that type of judging , was the judge being consistant ? yep
I might add that if I judged the same in this last region(acitity) a different kit might have won and a truely good team may not have have made it in the door.
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 11:36 AM
|
fhtfire
967 posts
May 20, 2007
11:18 AM
|
Can a guy have 46 breaks....YES...I have used this term over and over..."ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY" anything can happen....just because it does not happen very often....does not mean that it can't or doesn't. World records are broken....soccer teams are upset in matches....USA beats Russia in Hockey...Underdog horses win the races...history has shown that anything can happen.....I am pretty strict on my birds...and I had one of my teams a couple years back...break 41 times...they broke more then that...but 41 Scorable breaks....I was actually talking on the phone with Tony at the time. It was after a Fall Fly comp....it was 5 days later...they had 4 days of rest and all the mix they could eat for the first 3 days...and they came out on fire...I had never seen that many breaks before that day...and never seen it after....They were dumping on every turn....and I mean....not a bunch of crap...It looked like they hit a wall..just an explosion...they were fast....seperation...it was Awesome....but the point is...It can happen....just like when you have a good kit of birds and they tank on fly day....that happens too...and you sit there and scratch your head.....just like I was doing the day my birds decided to kick the tires and light the fires.....but I have NEVER been able to duplicate that day.
Saying that something better always happens over here...is a bunch of crap...As for the judge and the 46breaks...I was not there and did not see it...and it could have been a loose judge...that happens...just like you get a tight judge.....but if a guy like Brian McCormick...says that it happened..then I believe him..because he is not a bull shitter....anyway....that is all I have to say about that.....records are made to be broken...and again....anything can happen "ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY""
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
knaylor
482 posts
May 20, 2007
12:06 PM
|
I kind of laugh when I read this post. Of all of the guys here how many have ever judged??? If you have and you judge by the rules then you know the answer...LOL
|
Steve_uk
158 posts
May 20, 2007
12:07 PM
|
I've judged numerous times good buddy.
steve
|
nicksiders
1704 posts
May 20, 2007
12:33 PM
|
46 breaks in 20 minutes. This means they had more than two SCORING breaks per minute...........and they stayed together in a kit.............great kit of rollers for sure. Yes-sir-ree-bob!
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
George Ruiz
268 posts
May 20, 2007
1:02 PM
|
Jim
It dont matter if the birds originated in your part of the world ,all I know is that 46 breaks is possible and if you dont believe it then maybe you need to come over here to the states and see why the good ole U.S.A. leads the world in just about everything we put our hands on buddy.
George
|
George Ruiz
269 posts
May 20, 2007
1:08 PM
|
anyone that dont believe that birds can break 46 times in 20 minutes might need to start looking at getting another family of birds.
and I do agree that people who put thier birds before thier Family and job commitments will fly better kits .
Its not easy to work 40 plus hours a week and still have time for the family and the birds.
If someone is retired or self employed and enjoys the freedom to make thier own work schedule and they fly birds they should be flying some excellent kits ,if not then thier training or birds stink.
George
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 1:10 PM
|
Steve_uk
160 posts
May 20, 2007
1:11 PM
|
I would like to get a family that could do 40+ in 20 mins but red badges dont appeal to me bruv!
|
George Ruiz
270 posts
May 20, 2007
1:13 PM
|
steve how many years have you had birds ?
how many Master Flyer points do you got ?
George
|
ROLLERMAN
129 posts
May 20, 2007
1:18 PM
|
Steve
That remark was not called for. Lets just talk about rollers
al
|
Steve_uk
161 posts
May 20, 2007
1:19 PM
|
I've had pigeons a long time and what have master flyer points got to do with anythin?
birmingham rollers dont do 46 scorable breaks in 20 mins end of punk!
|
George Ruiz
271 posts
May 20, 2007
1:22 PM
|
steve your starting to sound like you wouldnt know a Birmingham Roller if it got in bed with you.
George
|
Steve_uk
162 posts
May 20, 2007
1:26 PM
|
Sounds to me george that your 1 of these trigger happy judges trying to justify your break happy scoring.
yours in sport.
Steve...
|
George Ruiz
273 posts
May 20, 2007
1:31 PM
|
negative steve
I know roller's can break that many times becuase I have seen it.
you need to get out and see some birds before you make up your mind that roller's are not capable of breaking 46 times.
Next time you visit our great country make sure you visit the fellas from the C.P.R.C. and then tell me that Roller's cant break 46 times.
George
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 1:33 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1787 posts
May 20, 2007
1:37 PM
|
I have never seen it George, although I have seen it given both in my own backyard and again down south , on my own fly I screwed up the kit and over amped them , I ended up high in the National final due to it and my only thought was that some good kits got screwed because of it, I was embarrased about it.
Personaly I don't want a family that can even give a poor judge a reason to score such activity , too much is sacraficed for it.
Give me a good solid team that gives me 20-25 "real" breaks with quality and I'm tickled , much more than that and they start falling apart qaulity wise and timing wise , that is just the nature of the birds, they can only do so much and hold it together.
Scott
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 1:47 PM
|
W@yne
432 posts
May 20, 2007
1:37 PM
|
George
My friend look at the scores in some of the regions around South Africa and America lots are in the high numbers but when the finals come to light the high numbers disappear. So lets all agree to disagree on this one.
Regards
W@YNE UK
----------
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 1:39 PM
|
Steve_uk
163 posts
May 20, 2007
1:38 PM
|
Goerge ive had the pleasure of visiting Goerge Mason, John Wanless, Peter Handy, Peter Harper, the list goes on and on and the scores your guys are claiming are unbelievable because there dammed impossible them birds had to be breaking every 20 seconds or so in good style with considerable depth wake up brother and give yourself a shake it cant happen.
Steve
|
spinner jim
105 posts
May 20, 2007
1:39 PM
|
George R, the only way you will score 46 in 20 is on fast spin in the spin dryer,talk sense man,brs drop real deep and take time to recover and rekit,even short dropping ,quick kitting badges would not come close to that score,remember where your brs originated ? over here and we kept all the good ones lol,our experienced flyers here can go back several generations for built in knowledge and i can assure you 46 in 20 is only dreamt about,as for awards for judging im awarding you the DBA (dont bother again) award for out standing stupidity, jim uk (steves new mate).
|
Steve_uk
164 posts
May 20, 2007
1:41 PM
|
Jims right do you think we would give you lot the good ones dont be daft lmao nice 1 jim lol
|
motherlodelofts
1788 posts
May 20, 2007
1:44 PM
|
"Next time you visit our great country make sure you visit the fellas from the C.P.R.C. and then tell me that Roller's cant break 46 times."
Been there for regional and judged the best in that region for the state fly.
Never saw anything close to it , I did see one judge give probably 40 something breaks when in fact 15 would be a stretch though.
Scott
|
George Ruiz
274 posts
May 20, 2007
1:49 PM
|
Scott
I agree that any kit that works thier ass of will lose some quality becuase they get tired ,yes I have seen it but as far as the birds breaking 46 times it does happen .
are all the breaks perfect, no but you still must give roll when 5 or more birds roll more the 10ft.
thats the reason we have quality and depth to reward good clean rollers that break only maybe twenty times but with lots of quality and to give a lower Q and D if they dont roll as clean as they should .
it also takes alot of strenth from the birds to go deep and clean and that prevents some kits from breaking 40 times in twenty minutes.
George
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 2:06 PM
|
George Ruiz
275 posts
May 20, 2007
1:51 PM
|
Scott
that was that one time you were there I lived 25 minutes from them and seen thier birds more then a few times.
George
|
George Ruiz
276 posts
May 20, 2007
1:53 PM
|
steve and jim so you guys are saying that the judge that awarded those scores is lying ?
george
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 1:55 PM
|
George Ruiz
277 posts
May 20, 2007
1:57 PM
|
Jim its real easy to talk shit when your thousands of miles away aint it.
George
|
motherlodelofts
1789 posts
May 20, 2007
2:08 PM
|
are all the breaks perfect, no but you still must give roll when 5 or more birds roll more the 10ft.
(sorry, but not true , if it isn't right from start to finish than it shouldn't be scored , this includes any wing switching, not coming out of the roll correctly ,slow ect.)
thats the reason we have quality and depth to reward good clean rollers that break only maybe twenty times but with lots of quality and to give a lower Q and D if they dont roll as clean as they should .
(nope, I don't score birds that roll like culls, in fact I refuse to , the multipliers start from birds doing it correctly and then go from there)
it also takes alot of strenth from the birds to go deep and clean and that prevents them from breaking 40 times in twenty minutes.
(we agree on this one) Scott
George
|
Steve_uk
165 posts
May 20, 2007
2:11 PM
|
I think he was prolly carried away at that moment goerge prolly on a promise that night so in a good mood or sumat.
Steve
|
George Ruiz
278 posts
May 20, 2007
2:11 PM
|
Scott
So if 10 birds break and only five spin correct then the break shoudnt be counted ?
george
|
George Ruiz
279 posts
May 20, 2007
2:14 PM
|
steve
what does PROLLY and SUMAT mean.
Are you loaded or did you skip 1st through 6th grade.
George
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 2:14 PM
|
W@yne
433 posts
May 20, 2007
2:15 PM
|
Are all the breaks perfect, no but you still must give roll when 5 or more birds roll more the 10ft
George
George that's so so wrong and this is the difference between UK
and most USA judges note i said 'MOST' the reason why i said most is because i know you guys have got some great judges. If a break doesn't resemble a break in quality why mark it as a break. If a pigeon doesn't ball up tight it ain't counted and that's that. I think this is where the difference is we are talking about. I know that a kit flying for twenty minutes rolling at more than 2 a minute and getting breaks in the region of 5 to 10 will deteriorate in quality over the fly time. Any experienced flyer knows this. It aint rocket science.
Regards
W@yne uk
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 2:25 PM
|
Steve_uk
167 posts
May 20, 2007
2:17 PM
|
W@yne its obvious what there counting is birds chasing there tail in a break like mags and badges.
|
George Ruiz
280 posts
May 20, 2007
2:19 PM
|
Wayne
let me clarify if the birds break and at least 5 or more are clean then they should be scored .
I am not talking about scoring twizzlers or anything that moves .
Thanks George
|