knaylor
485 posts
May 20, 2007
10:31 PM
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Paul. i didnt take it personal. I was meaning that when you get out and judge you will look at them differently. Its not a slam on you or anything. It really is different how you look at them. Now on the 46 breaks??? i dont see it mainly because of the timing.. Yes quality counts but if the breaks arent in time then it doesnt matter how they look cause it doesnt count.
(P.S.) i think you would be a great Flower judge!!!LOL couldnt resist!!
Last Edited by on May 20, 2007 10:33 PM
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luis
285 posts
May 20, 2007
10:31 PM
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Boy..........some things never change!!
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fhtfire
982 posts
May 20, 2007
11:04 PM
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I tell you what....I met some HOT ladies when I did that..LOL..anyway...I was not taking it personal...friends don't take things personal. I think you got my point and I hope to judge someday so I can really study others kits......you can learn so much from that....Come on..I did play college football...and coached wrestling...so I do have the mojo side...LOL..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Alohazona
287 posts
May 20, 2007
11:52 PM
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Paul,
You are a very diverse individual...Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
288 posts
May 20, 2007
11:57 PM
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Kevin,
What is all aspects in your opinion??Don't get me wrong I'm looking to learn something here.Hopefully something that will help me do better or change what I have been doing wrong...Aloha,Todd
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W@yne
436 posts
May 21, 2007
2:41 AM
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Wayne you said you never sawe a kit get to half of 46 - that would be more than 23 breaks correct?
Firl
I would say that i have never seen a quality kit NOTE i said 'QUALITY' score more than 30 breaks, When i say 30 breaks this kit might have broke 46 times but the 16 breaks that wasn't counted is because they wasn't worthy to be counted. That wasn't even in a competition the 30 breaks was on a routine visit to a friend of mine George Masons Ste was with me on this occasion. I have judged and stood under some of the best kits and flyers in England and i regard them as being up with the best in the world so i do know what an outstanding kit should look like. Just because you see breaks of 46 over there doesnt mean a different judge would give that kit the same breaks. Look ive no issues with you or any of my brothers over there. There is loose judging that is done incorrect and there is hard judging that is done correct. A newbie will learn loads more being around a hard judge than he will ever do being around a loose judge. And this debate is meant for the newbies to learn from to make the standards around new guys starting out with rollers by putting these guy on the right track from day 1.
Like i said before lets just agree to disagree this way it keeps everyone happy.
Regards
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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motherlodelofts
1810 posts
May 21, 2007
5:26 AM
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"I know....because I have judged goats, sheep and swine...but mostly goats...I have also judged floriculture.."
Let me guess , the pirate ear rings are from the floriculture days LOL LOL
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1811 posts
May 21, 2007
5:34 AM
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"A newbie will learn loads more being around a hard judge than he will ever do being around a loose judge. "
Boy you hit the nail on the head on this one , a loose judge will ruin them and they learn nothing.
Everytime a shitty break is scored , a good kit is cheated .
loose judges will and do let birds rolling like culls take the day, and then we come closer and closer to Pensoms predictions of competion ruining the breed
Scott
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knaylor
486 posts
May 21, 2007
7:49 AM
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Todd, aspects of my opinion of what? If its of a break I want every bird to start togeteher. If I can see a difference in the birds and atleast 5 dont start at the same time then its nothing. During the break the MUST roll straight and clean( no hiccups, wing switching, and not showing too much wing)), then the MUST go what I think is 10 feet. Then they Must come out straight and clean. To me timing of the start of the break is most difficult and also is one of the things a few judges are really laxed on. I have seen way too much waterfalling getting scored.Thanks, kevin
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kcfirl
109 posts
May 21, 2007
8:23 AM
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I'll throw a zinger out there.
I personally don't care much if my birds break together. I want high velocity, good style, and depth.
I want champion spinners, not birds that break together. That's what comp tumblers are good at.
I prefer individual champions.
Too bad there are no more individual birds comp's like there were in the glory days of the balck country.
Firl
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Steve_uk
168 posts
May 21, 2007
8:45 AM
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Flipin heck this post as gone on a bit an it lol.
Steve...
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nicksiders
1714 posts
May 21, 2007
9:15 AM
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ZING! Damn, Ken.
My best performer just fires whenever he pleases and is exceptionally deep and controlled with good form. The Brits do select a best bird out of thier competitions and we don't.................why?
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Alohazona
290 posts
May 21, 2007
10:09 AM
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Kevin,Scott,
Thanks guys for your clarifications.I'm a hands-on/conceptual thinker,so sometimes I will ask alittle more till a picture pops in my head about what someone is saying...Aloha,Todd
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1395 posts
May 21, 2007
10:26 AM
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Firl, dems fighting words.....calling birds that break together....comp tumblers.
I could fire back and say that in my opinion those who think competition is full of shitty pigeons and only the ones seeking some mystical champion individual roller have the good birds...are lazy, isolated, non-competitive and usually can be found making excuses for their birds with that "I seek a higher meaning in the breed"...BS. Trust me, anyone, anywhere, anytime who wants to label my birds as nothing more than comp tumblers because they are bred specifically for competition and to break together....is in for a battle. Dig your heels in homie, multi salvos are locked and loaded...call the ball.
Brian.
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spinner jim
110 posts
May 21, 2007
10:31 AM
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Well guys who fits this description, goat,sheep and swine judge- flower critic and some time pigeon expert,together with wrestling referee ??,that just about does me in, nobody can have all these attributes and concentrate on keeping good rollers of any worth, im glad he aint ours lads,shame we cant send round the guys in the white coats lol,jim.
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nicksiders
1715 posts
May 21, 2007
11:14 AM
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Jim,
He has been all of those things and a model as well. He is also a fire captian. His birds do well; he is a solid loft manager.
Now, just because you just sit around on you ass and bark doesn't mean he does.
LOL
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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W@yne
437 posts
May 21, 2007
11:31 AM
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He has been all of those things and a model as well. He is also a fire captian. His birds do well; he is a solid loft manager.
I take my hat off to Paul nothing but respect for him. But like Scotty and Jim says that flowery issue and earings erm seems a little funny to me lmao (joking) Paul you are a role model to any newbie.
A round of applause from me buddy.
Regards
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on May 21, 2007 12:26 PM
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kcfirl
110 posts
May 21, 2007
12:25 PM
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Paul is great at everything. Just ask him!
Firl
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kcfirl
111 posts
May 21, 2007
12:28 PM
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Brian,
I don't doubt you fly quality spinners. It's just that the way things are going, frequent, mediocre birds will beat fast, deep pigeons most of the time.
I wish we would focus less on simultaneous breaks and award a greater differential for truly outstanding spinners as opposed to frequency and simultaneous breaks.
It worries me when the highest scoring kit is also the most frequent.
Firl
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Velo99
1103 posts
May 21, 2007
2:56 PM
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After much consideration I have a theory on the 46.
I have heard a few judges,or guys that judge,discuss breaks and calls. Some of you might remember some of these discussions and emails.
The gist of it was calling multiple breaks on the same break. For instance if 5 birds break and 7 more break right behind them some judges will call both breaks.
The recovery should be pretty rapid. It could very well add up to 46 breaks in 20 minutes if it is called more than a couple of times.
Personally I would rather have the 12 bird break,unless the 7 birds was a lot deeper than the 5. lol
Judges opinions?
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on May 21, 2007 3:13 PM
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fhtfire
983 posts
May 21, 2007
3:41 PM
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Oh yeah...I was a beekeeper for about 3 years...and worked at a goat dairy for about 2....lol...and I was good at everything..ask Ken...LOL!!! I was not very good with the flower thing...Lol...And Nick....I did not used to model...I still do...but not the same stuff...when I was young it was runway, fitness and commercial print....now I do Viagra, Geritol, and depends adult diapers..LOL!!...I just did a shoot for AT&T a month ago and SONY about a year ago...Ok....that is what happens when you grow up in a small town..you become a jack of many trades but a master of none....
Actually I am good at everything...like Ken said...but I am not very good at finding time for the wife....when I am in bird mode....have to work on that..LOL
Ok....you all got your jabs....
I have to pop a viagra...take my geritol so I don't pull a muscle and adjust the depends..they are riding up..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
1105 posts
May 21, 2007
4:16 PM
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Your sponsors will be proud.
You mentioned tham all twice lol
Are you at the station? Tried to call about 4:00
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on May 21, 2007 4:17 PM
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fhtfire
984 posts
May 21, 2007
4:23 PM
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Kenny,
I am on duty today..I will be off duty on Wed...0800hrs.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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kcfirl
112 posts
May 21, 2007
4:56 PM
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Paul,
after I wrote that I felt bad. I know you are very competitive and sure kicked my butt this year. I was just trying to be funny. Sorry if I offended you.
Ken
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motherlodelofts
1812 posts
May 21, 2007
4:56 PM
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Brian,
I don't doubt you fly quality spinners. It's just that the way things are going, frequent, mediocre birds will beat fast, deep pigeons most of the time.
I wish we would focus less on simultaneous breaks and award a greater differential for truly outstanding spinners as opposed to frequency and simultaneous breaks.
It worries me when the highest scoring kit is also the most frequent.
Firl
Ken , I see frequency as a qaulity also , after all who wants to watch a kit of stiffs.
The thing with is , frequency is like depth , once it goes beyond a particular point qaulity goes to shit.
What bothers me is when birds that are rolling like culls are scored , to me this is the greatest tragity facing us.
I have to be honest, birds rolling ind. don't do much for me, now give me a hard solid break of such birds and I'll get a woody , there is nothing else like it.
The highest qaulity spinners that I have seen are within 20 bird kits and rolling within breaks, and that includes the rare kits with many of such birds , in fact I would say that it takes the stimulation of "others" to get any bird cranking to it's potential , I have never seen that many good ones rolling individualy .
Scott
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kcfirl
113 posts
May 21, 2007
4:58 PM
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Brian,
thanks for you response. By "the way things are going" I meant since the inception of the kit competitions. I did not see as many 500+ point kits 10 years ago as I see today, that's for sure. I think the average kit is much more frequent, especially in the US than they were 10 years ago.
Our WC rules were created with the goal in mind of creating a balance in awarding points between turns and great spinners with one expressed focus being to not cause the degeneration of the individual champion. Thus, the multipliers.
I agree with you on the 11 bird fliy's purpose. I just don't think it's happening tyhe way we intended. Again, I believe the cause is lack of point difference between an outstanding bird and a good one.
I'm not saying that the most frequent teams don't have good, quality spinners. I just don;t think they have the most outstanding individual performers. Of course, it;s because this is a kit comp.
I agree with judges 90% of the time. I just don't agree that the birds that are capable of the highest scores (ie most frequent) are the ones I want to breed toward.
I used to agree with those that said the kit comp's are improving the breed. I think they're changing the birds a bit, I just don't know if that's what I want for myself.
Do you think the Higgins birds are the deepest, fastest birds? I'm sure there are some deep and fast ones, I just wonder if they are as good as the best. I assume that all the guys down there would have them if they thought they were.
I know, I need to get down there and see em. I've been trying, and just haven't been able to break loose when you guys are flying. I know you know how that goes.
Ken
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motherlodelofts
1813 posts
May 21, 2007
5:03 PM
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Ken , it's the judging that has changed not the frequency ,can anyone say "score that shit" .
Scott
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fhtfire
988 posts
May 21, 2007
5:09 PM
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Ken,
I didn't get offended.....trust me I work in a fire station....LOL!! We get that all the time...plus you have earned the right to throw a jab..we have know each other for awhile now...plus I took you to Paco's..LOL No worries...now I would get pissed if I didn't know you and you said it..LOL..J/K...I am only a little competetive..LOL yeah right..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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maxspin
80 posts
May 22, 2007
7:26 AM
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"I agree that a kit of mediocre, frequent pigeons will usually beat a kit of less frequent, great spinners."
Being relatively new to this hobby this is something that I have never understood.
The rules were set up with the means to overcome this problem, they just are not applied. Quality and Depth multipliers should be process used to level the playing field.
If the judge is looking at a kit of mediocre, frequent pigeons, then they should be getting Q & D multipliers of 1.1 - 1.2. Judges seem to be too stingy giving out high multipliers.
Q & D multipliers range from 1.1 to 2.0. Given that range poor quality (storable) kits should be 1.1 - 1.2. Average quality kits should be 1.5, and high quality kits should be 1.7 to 1.9. If judges will not award higher that a 1.6 for Q and D then it leaves the door open for the low quality frequent kits to win.
Keith Maxwell
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W@yne
444 posts
May 22, 2007
8:38 AM
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"I agree that a kit of mediocre, frequent pigeons will usually beat a kit of less frequent, great spinners."
Being relatively new to this hobby this is something that I have never understood.
The rules were set up with the means to overcome this problem, they just are not applied. Quality and Depth multipliers should be process used to level the playing field.
If the judge is looking at a kit of mediocre, frequent pigeons, then they should be getting Q & D multipliers of 1.1 - 1.2. Judges seem to be too stingy giving out high multipliers.
Q & D multipliers range from 1.1 to 2.0. Given that range poor quality (storable) kits should be 1.1 - 1.2. Average quality kits should be 1.5, and high quality kits should be 1.7 to 1.9. If judges will not award higher that a 1.6 for Q and D then it leaves the door open for the low quality frequent kits to win.
Keith Maxwell
Absolutely correct but are judges over there going by this rule as they should do. What next 60 breaks next year who knows?
This brings us back to the loose judging and the 46 breaks again. Like me and a few others on here have been saying if the breaks have not got the QUALITY then those breaks should not be counted. A Birmingham Roller must ball up in the roll and come out of the roll correct to be counted in any competition whether its world cup or club level.
Regards
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on May 22, 2007 8:40 AM
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kcfirl
116 posts
May 22, 2007
8:53 AM
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Wayne and keith - good posts.
Scott, I disagree that it's the loose judges. I think it's the birds. It's much easier to find a kit of very frequent, decent pigeons today than it was 10 years ago. Just ask any South African flyer. LOL There have always been loose judges in the last 10 years.
I think we need two things to fix this:
1 - A minimum quality standard in writing. We should, as a sport, define the monimum quality of roll needed to be score. Of course perceptions differ, but writing somehting down in black and white is a start.
2 - Higher multipliers for very good pigeons. The highest I 've ever given is 1.6. If I judged that same kit today, I would award 1.75. I agree there is not enough seperation in quality and depth multipiers. A crap kit gets a 1.2 and a very. very good kit gets 1.6 today. IT should be 1.0 or nothing at all and 1.7 or 1.8. always leave wiggle room for a better kit of course.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1399 posts
May 22, 2007
10:35 AM
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The problem is that I've seen a lot of judges that don't know what quality is, and just throw numbers out there and let them stick. Hell look at our recent fly here, damn near everyone given a 1.4, 1.4. No separation between the better quality and lesser quality. Which instantly turns a fly into a frequency-fest. It just becomes a numbers game, that's it.
The Q and D system only sort of works. An average frequent kit will always beat a kit of really good spinners that aren't all that frequent. We've seen the scenarios and math before showing this to be the case. As I noted before in some examples, you will NEVER see a kit where every bird scored in a break was of the same, great quality. There are variances to the quality of the performance and so the Q factor must be averaged, which means a lower number than what one of those birds would have gotten by itself.
I'm dead serious when I say that at least half of the people I've witness judging didn't use the Q & D system correctly. And I see people who like one kind of roll, and others who abhor that kind of roll. This will never be a perfect system.
Wayne, until you have stood under a kit in this country, your opinion on this subject is absolutely meaningless. Scoff all you want, stirr the pot of conviction, but the fact remains, you have yet to witness a single kit or a single judge of which you criticize. Rephrasing your opinions might come across a little bit more acceptable.
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W@yne
445 posts
May 22, 2007
11:24 AM
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Wayne, until you have stood under a kit in this country, your opinion on this subject is absolutely meaningless.
Brian
If you guys want to be the laughing stock of the roller world then its up to you guys i will not comment and i don't mean this to criticise you guys in any way shape or form. But the comments i have made regarding this subject is to only try to help you guys make the standard of judging over there sound a little more realistic and acceptable. Look i ain't knocking the judges over there for their effort involved i know its a hard enough job to do. They all put there own time forward to do the honours of judging flys and they do this for the love of the hobby. The thing some judges over there need is education and peraphs a standard on this subject. This is where meetings come into it.
We over here have many.
Brian
I don't need to stand under any kits over there. Theres no different watching a good kit fly over there to as watching a good kit fly over here. And as for Scotty stirring i think he is one of the guys over there who speaks nothing but sense. I ain't disrespecting you Brian because you have given a diary of experienced comments on this forum and Ive nothing but respect for you and may it continue. Anyway i think ive had my 2 cents in as you guys say now and thats the end on this subject from me.
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on May 22, 2007 1:24 PM
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nicksiders
1716 posts
May 22, 2007
1:10 PM
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Well, If you haven't stood under a kit in Marion, Arkansa your opinion is meaningless about kits in Marion, Arkansas. There is only two guys beside me that have stood under a kit in Marion, Arkansas so only thier opinion counts(Don Sutton and Ferrell Bussing). Their opinion was the kits in Marion, Arkansas suck. They understand a good kit is a good kit no matter where you find them and a bad kit is a bad kit no matter where you find them.
By golly......and that is the last thing I want to hear......I, I, mean say on this subjecr.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on May 22, 2007 1:20 PM
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Steve_uk
170 posts
May 22, 2007
1:19 PM
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W@yne i think you've well and truly blown our chances of a trip to America lol.
Steve....
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Skylineloft
55 posts
May 22, 2007
1:32 PM
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Wayne,
Your always welcome at my place.
Ray
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spinner jim
112 posts
May 22, 2007
1:51 PM
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Steve ,theres only so many 46 breaks you can watch in one day, after a while i would be so demoralised i would probably go home and neck all my inadequate badges,lol, whats the point in trying to compete,lol jim gloucester (the land of the two break).
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ArlenS
71 posts
May 22, 2007
2:37 PM
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Perhaps there should be a judge certification program. For example, you can't just become a wrestling referee. You must be officially trained and certified by an official organization, and periodically requalify. Of course becoming certified costs money and takes time. This standardizes the decision-making. There should be no room for personal opinion. The rules and application of them must be clear and consistent.
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W@yne
448 posts
May 23, 2007
8:13 AM
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Skylineloft
Ray thanks a lot buddy i might take you up on that offer one day seeing that your the only one that offered lol.
I dont think im the most popular person over there at the minute. :(
Regards
W@YNE UK
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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nicksiders
1719 posts
May 23, 2007
9:13 AM
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If anyone from the UK wants to talk to Elvis at Graceland you are more than welcome to rest your head and body and nurish it at my home...............that goes for anybody. Just give me a call so I can run the vaccuum before you get here.
You can also stand under a kit in Marion, Arkansas. The birds are getting better.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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W@yne
450 posts
May 23, 2007
9:42 AM
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Nicksiders
Are you sure you've never been on the stage cause your one funny guy lol. Please keep the post coming Nick i am always looking forward to see what you have put on Tony's forum next 'YOURE THE MAN'
That kit in Marion, Arkansas will look a lot better when we tuck into a few beers lol.
Ill buy the beers if i ever get over there.
Regards and thanks for making me smile again :)
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 10:05 AM
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Otis
25 posts
May 23, 2007
12:55 PM
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Brian, I concur with Scott, why were all the Q multipliers the same in your region. Wasn't your judge a portable loft flier? I say this because ,I've never seen a decent roll from a mobile housed bird and seriously think what you watch daily translates into how you judge others. Yes, I've judged a region before and know we'll never have parity in judges but a judge not having a game plan (min.-max.)(scorable-nonscorable)becomes quite obvious and is a danger to most quality minded judges and to the sports/birds progress. To the guys on the other side of the pond, I feel the current finals judge plays right into the hands of the S.Calif. finalists in that overt frequency is rewarded. And if you haven't seen that type of frequency with quality don't knock it-it does exist-it has been strived for by US flyers. Like most things in life limitations are only in the mind of the manager. Of course I'd rather see a kit spin deep with extreme quality once a min., but a kit spinning correctly going 20 ft twice a minute and rubberbanding back for a full 20 min. can achieve
more than you'd imagine. What do you think about the current high score of over 700 pts.? Is it the birds or the judge? Otis
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W@yne
454 posts
May 23, 2007
2:00 PM
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To the guys on the other side of the pond, I feel the current finals judge plays right into the hands of the S.Calif. finalists in that overt frequency is rewarded. And if you haven't seen that type of frequency with quality don't knock it-it does exist-it has been strived for by US flyers.
Otis as much as i would like to say my view on the above as i have stated before 'its end of chat.
' SUBJECT FINISHED ON MY BEHALF'
Ive made my point and some of the guys have took it in where i am coming from and others not.
I seem to be losing my comradeship on here by expressing my views and this is something i don't want to happen after being around some of these guys for years.
Regards
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 2:21 PM
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Steve_uk
171 posts
May 23, 2007
2:04 PM
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You cant leave it at that W@yne my brother surely we can sqeeze another 50 posts out this one lol.
Steve0...
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kcfirl
117 posts
May 23, 2007
2:29 PM
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wayne,
no offense taken here. I appreciate your opinion.
thanks,
Ken
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George Ruiz
298 posts
May 23, 2007
6:47 PM
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I keep reading about birds having to return to the kit by flying up (Rubberband Back to the kit ).
On several occasions (daily) I see my birds fly to the altitude of about 750 ft then break and roll about 25ft then break again about 25to 30 ft and the break again 25ft and agian 25ft.all in about 1 minute time .
Thats 4 times a minute and they lose approximatley 100 ft of altitude.
then they fly and gain altitude again ,do they do this the whole fly NO, but they do it often.
so can someone please explain why a bird has to Rubberband back to the kit if the whole kit is at the same level and has only lost 100ft of altitude from where the breaks started.
Thanks George
Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 6:52 PM
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motherlodelofts
1821 posts
May 23, 2007
6:54 PM
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I hate it when they do that George , when I see it , it that tells me that I need to put the screws to them and fly it out of them and get them breaking right with qaulity.
Scott
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George Ruiz
299 posts
May 23, 2007
6:57 PM
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What do you mean Scott ?
Only if a kit has to fly upwards after a break that means its breaking with Quality ?
George
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motherlodelofts
1822 posts
May 23, 2007
7:03 PM
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What do you mean, what do I mean ? it is something that needs to be fixed because when they do that garbage the qaulity isnt going to be there , its ugly.
There is a reason why the whole kit is at the same level , how did they get at the same level ? and please don't tell me they are hammering full turns
Scott
Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 7:11 PM
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George Ruiz
300 posts
May 23, 2007
7:12 PM
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Scott
Do you agree that all familys of rollers are different to some extent ?
well maybe in your family of birds that is true (when they break 4 times a minute ) Bad quality ,I dont know I have never seen them.
But do you think its possible that another Family of birds may be able to break 4 times a minute with quality if the breaks are only 25 to 30 ft and not for the whole twenty minutes ?
Thanks George
Last Edited by on May 23, 2007 7:13 PM
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