gabe454
563 posts
Mar 12, 2008
7:29 PM
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rato
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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ezeedad
363 posts
Mar 13, 2008
8:02 PM
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Hector,
I like that red bar. Looks like a strong bird. Keep doing what you're doing. You're making this hobby even more interesting than it already is. You are also producing some very rare rollers. I know you've been in this too long to settle for less than top quality spinners too..!! GREAT WORK..!!
Gomez
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sippi
125 posts
Mar 14, 2008
4:05 PM
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hey George and Hector top this double crested Birmingham Roller. Shell and nasal crest.
Sippi
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2008 4:07 PM
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Hector Coya
46 posts
Mar 14, 2008
4:44 PM
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Hey Sippi
I got a pure Norm Reed that has a few feathers on the front ,over the beak,i bred her and her young also has it.im going to inbreed it a few generations to see if i can build a full peak crest,my friend bred 3 the others had it better,his birds where original Norm Reed.
Hector Coya
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black_hawk_down
96 posts
Mar 14, 2008
5:24 PM
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crest in the front? i dont think that's a BR...JMO..nice-joe
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2008 5:24 PM
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George R.
376 posts
Mar 14, 2008
5:55 PM
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Man Sippi
you should not have posted that picture now everyone is going to be begging you to sell them that Bird.
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George R.
377 posts
Mar 14, 2008
5:56 PM
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Hector
I will call Norm Reed tonight and ask him if that trait is common in his line.
by the way were these Birds that are from Norm Reed were they bred in a individual or a OPEN loft?????
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2008 5:58 PM
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sippi
126 posts
Mar 14, 2008
6:11 PM
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I forgot to mention that he rolls from 2.5-5.3 seconds. So I guess twenty five to fify three feet. I use a stop watch on my deeper birds now so I dont have to guess. May be off one way or the other a foot or two but is consistant.
I have to admit that he is really a Galati roller. I couldnt resist it.
Sippi
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ezeedad
364 posts
Mar 14, 2008
6:22 PM
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Sippi,
I thought that bird looked like a cross for sure, but it's a Galati roller?.. Where do they come from, and how is their roll compared to a Birmingham?
Paul
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sippi
127 posts
Mar 14, 2008
6:38 PM
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They have a roll more akin to an Oriental. The best I have seen is a bird that rolled ten feet stop for a second rolled ten more feet stopped and ten more feet and then plate rolled fifteen or twenty feet. They kit like glue and will swoop down as a kit and pick up an out bird.
This bird rolls some and then goes into an H wing and just falls straight down. He is just coming into roll. They roll in perfect style but slower than a fast birm.
They came from Romania. Most come saddle backed and no head ornaments. They have been bred for performance only and will come crested, in nasal, shell, and zipper. The will come booted and clean legged. most are clean legged and no ornaments. I breed only best to best.
Sippi
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Hector Coya
47 posts
Mar 14, 2008
6:58 PM
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George.I already talked to Norm about it,he was pretty upset,it came from a pair he sold someone highly regarded.i dont want to say it here,but if you realy want to know ,call me,it will blow you away.this person already broke up the pair after they produced a front peak,mine only has a few feathers going to the front,but its genetic becouse the only young i bred sofar has a bigger one.Call me.Hector Coya
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Mongrel Lofts
545 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:36 PM
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I can't help but notice, these freak birds with crest, tuffs and muffs always pop up in the the lofts that are looking for them and in the same general area's. I can't figure out why none of the guy's I have hung out with and the thousands of birds they have bred. None of these odd color's or Crest have popped up. You have to admit its odd how these things pop up around the guys that are looking for them.. Just a thought. KGB
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 8:04 AM
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elopez
785 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:52 PM
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Kenny I was wondering when you were going to drop in...lol
I know how much you love these birds...lol
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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Hector Coya
48 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:55 PM
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Kenny,i dont think the guy i got the front peak was looking for it,thats why im not saying his name,i dont think he was happy about it,neather was Norm Reed,but i got the bird and it wasnt bred at my house,i just heard he bred it so i called and asked to buy it,he gave it to me becouse he didnt nwant it in his loft. maybe the breeders you know could hve bred an odd bird they just might kull it before anyone finds out. Hector Coya
M
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ezeedad
365 posts
Mar 14, 2008
8:40 PM
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Interesting sippi...
I have seen Birminghams that stop and start back up or switch wings too..but it's been a while. Also it looks like most of the plate rolling has been bred out of Birminghams by now, but there used to be a lot more of it.
Gomez
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Phantom1
177 posts
Mar 14, 2008
9:12 PM
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This is sort of off topic, yet may apply. Back in my younger years I was more into Racing Homers than any other breed.
In roaming the ciruit of fliers, there were few, but still a good number of people that had a unique trait in their birds. When I say a good number, I'm saying maybe 1 out of 40 people. See, years back LOL - the Chinese Owl was crossed into Racing Homers due to its furious, fast, and rapid speed. Years later, an itty bitty tuft of feathers, two or three out of place, began to pop up in the middle of the chest. Folks saw this as a sign of speed.
Should they breed towards the small, yet noticeable frill of 3 feathers? It was indicative of speed afterall. Not a single person culled for it, and it was a recessive gene that just "popped up".
My opinion...In certain populations and families of any breed, there will always be characteristics that will bred towards. Allowing the fact that all breeds are really cross breeds anyway, there will always be throw backs in a given loft. You don't have to see it in 1 out of 10 lofts to ascertain its existance, nor its purity to that flier, to have proof there are crosses in inheritage. However, there are obvious crosses that you can see that are only in stage F1, F2, and even F5. But again, if the cross is made for the improvement of the bird, I don't see that it matters if that particular breed "in development" has a crest, double crest, chest frill, back frill, forked tail, grouse leg, feathered feet, or muffs. Personally, I don't care for any of it LOL! But that's my choice, and if presented with that in my birds, I would breed away from it. But for some, that's where the sought-after trait is, and it's bred towards.
Food for thought...tear it up :-)
Eric
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2008 9:13 PM
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George R.
379 posts
Mar 14, 2008
9:16 PM
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Hector
I will call you tommorow. I am getting ready to go to a St. Patricks day Carnival and festival.
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2008 9:17 PM
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ezeedad
367 posts
Mar 14, 2008
11:21 PM
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Phantom,
That is a very good observation... and it applies very much to what we are talking about. Thanks,
Paul
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sippi
129 posts
Mar 15, 2008
8:39 AM
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Kenny I dont think that you hear much about it because most people are ashamed that it happened in thier loft and hide/destroy the evidence. There were a lot of crosses that made the Birmingham roller.
The Oriental is where the plate roll came from. They were crossed into the Black Country rollers as late as the 1950's. I know for a fact that an F1 cross between an Oriental and a Birm looks exactly like a Birm and will increase the frequency two fold. Depth is very short though. I have never went past F1 so I cant testify to what would come. I dont want short. I did it after reading about one of the famous Birmingham breeders doing it. I was amazed that all signs of the Oriental were erased in one cross.
I never breed any crosses back into my pure families but have played with several F1 crosses trying to create some like an AFT that is almost extinct if not already from a performance stand point.
Sippi
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Scott
239 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:01 AM
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Only in questionable lofts Sippi or birds out of questionable lofts.
You won't see it in mainstream lofts as they don't allow birds onto the property from questionable lofts.
As for the Reed thing, I seriously doubt it, the truth probably lays with the jist of this post which is questionable lofts.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
130 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:17 AM
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Scott as I understand it you dont believe in recessive genes or natural mutation. I will say it has never happened to me. But when I first got the Galati's I got a shell crest out of two clean legged plain headed birds. I will say I was more than a little confused because the birds in Levi's book were clean legged and plain headed. Then a friend in Romania told me that they were bred for competition only in Romania and would come with all the variations. I will continue to breed only for performance but dont care what pops up and am not afraid to talk about it. One of the birds in this post looks like a flying tippler and probably back somewhere someone put tippler in. Who knows.
Sippi
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MILO
890 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:11 AM
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If I were to give some of my birds to someone, who even having the best intentions, decided to cross them into some other breed to create some freak trait, I wouldn't know about it right? So 6 generations later some silly attribute pops up, and all of a sudden this guy has "MILO" birds that carry the gene. Does anyone realize how disrespectful that is? It's downright shameful. And those that smear a good roller mans name, whether it be intentionally or not, are not creating good will. I wonder if they realize how silly they look. It's just not right.
I am going to use you Hector as an example. I don't mean to single you out, but for the purpose of intelligent discourse, I think you are the best example here:
You have posted pictures of short beaked rollers. In doing so you are doing two things...Implying the breeders birds you got them from were crossed at some point with something, and that the practice of having that stuff in you gene pool is ok. It not only is a reach, but it smears the mans name in my opinion. How are you going to take Norm Reed, and Jerry Higgins names and throw them in the mud? Why would you do that? The only thing I think it would be is to further your own agenda. So you like crests and muffs. I mean seriously, who cares? That's great for you, and the fact that it makes you happy is fine and dandy, but why bring in names? Did you call Higgins to let him know he has mongrels?
You wonder why us "purists" are always on edge? To let those people looking to cross our birds know that if we see a post of a crested frill muff with our name on it, that we will absolutely freak out...and let that person know about it. It just makes me ill sometimes to know the new kids in the hobby are just forcefed shovel loads agenda-based roller propaganda. Guess it makes some crossbreeder feel better about himself if he convinces enough newbies what he is doing is ok. At that point the damage is done, when some kid wakes up, sees a loft full of crap, and loses interest. Kenny, with all his piss and vinegar was very diplomatic about it. I think I may have woken up on the wrong side of the bed maybe. Nevertheless, I had to comment forcefully.
At this stage in my family of birds, there are two, maybe three people I would ever accept birds from. The reason for that is that their integrity is rock solid. Takes a lifetime of dedication to obtain that. You just can't throw those names around disrespectfully.
To be digging up roller pedigrees, or what I see frankly as a fabrication historical data, to promote a series useless roller fetishes is wrong. Such practice is the thing of gossiping wives, politicians maybe, but not the brotherhood of the fancy.
c
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 12:06 PM
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sippi
132 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:39 AM
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Milo I didnt think your post as hard core or out of line. If someone adds something to thier birds and doesnt tell a person recieving that is tantamount to being a liar, cheat, and worse. Now on the other hand if some one has this pop up and is honest about it he is none of the things you describe. You should though read more on genetics. Throw backs and genetic mutations will occur. And I will use myself as an example. I am known for having some of the best Plott hounds in the southeast. I have breed this line for thirty years and consider an out cross to be third cousin. In the last five or six years I have had dogs come with white on them. This is a no no!!!! I did not cull the ones with white nor did I propagate it. I only bred one and she was an excellent bear dog. I have not had this reoccur since she died but I know that she was not illigetimate nor any cross was made. I am sure though that I could have propagated this trait but it would have gone against my breeding philosohpy of best to best. The same can occur in birds and I am sure has in a lot more lofts than you know. People just sweep it under the rug. Now I dont know any of the people on this post personally but I have no reason to doubt thier word as to ancestry with the exception. If the birds were open loft bred ancestry is questionable. If there is no other breed in the loft then it is still in the genes whether single mated or not. I will call no man a liar until he has proven himself so. Ignorance(look it up in webster if it offends you )is not lying either just misleading. Those that the shoe fit concerning your post are the only ones that should take offense.
Sippi
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MILO
891 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:52 AM
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Great post sippi. I agree with you on most of this. The claims of genetic mutation are resonable to a point. Having a crest pop up in my family would be as likely as winning the lottery 10 times in a row. Can it happen? Never say never. I see a lot of genetic mutation claims here that don't support the odds. Then the "Birmingham Roller" breeder circles his program around the mutation, breeding intensely around it, and not the standards of performance.
Getting a bird handed to you from Jerry Higgins, and getting one at the feedshop that has a Higgins band are entirely two different things. Right? Bet you the feed store bird will have the new owner throwing out all kinds of mutations.
I'm just tired of the gray areas in our hobby, that really aren't that gray. We just have to use our brains a little, and sometimes just say enough is enough.
c
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Scott
240 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:55 AM
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Actualy Milo, it wasn't George that posted the supposably short beaks, it was someone else trying to justify mongrels.
Personaly they dind't look that short to me, shorter than my family but certainly nothing strange,more of a family trait thing.
Actualy they look more along the lines of the Don Hearns loaded 313 stuff.
It is almost funny how those that knowenly allow mutts into thier lofts work so hard at justifing by verbaly mongralizing the breed on the whole along with lofts that would never dream of allowing such birds onto the property.
I remember 6 or 7 years ago I was at a fairly new flyers house and he had some bird that was obviously a mutt color, when I asked about it he said it came out of a Jack Meyers pair.
I knew better than that and I couldn't wait to throw that one on Jack LOL of coarse he had other mutts in the breeding loft also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 9:10 AM
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nicksiders
2620 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:04 PM
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Milo,
I enjoyed you post #890 very much. Very few people use the word "integrety" much in the roller world.
Good post, Mr. Camillo Paci.
Nick Siders
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MILO
892 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:05 PM
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My apologies, I meant Hector. I mistyped it Scott. Thanks for the correction. I'll edit it now.
c
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Scott
241 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:19 PM
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(Scott as I understand it you dont believe in recessive genes or natural mutation)
Not true at all Sippi, but the bulk of the mutations seem to pop up in and around questionable lofts or birds down out of such lofts.
I'll paste this from my post on another list , which runs in line as far as trying to breed around "true" mutations.
(If I tried to say breed for Blue Bars that don't even have any strange blood in the background , and if I choose my matings due to it, I can assure that either I would hold myself back or go backwards in a quick minute.)
Sippi, this is a very complicated breed, and there is so many consideration to take into account when pairing that you just can't afford to take your eye off of the ball. You just can't afford to use the wrong birds for the wrong reasons, the building of good solid fairly consistant stock just leaves no room for it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 12:22 PM
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spanky
373 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:34 PM
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MILO
YOUR JUST MAD BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE SHORT BEAK BIRDS ARE ON TOP.
SPANKY
SGVS
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 12:34 PM
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MILO
893 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:41 PM
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I hope you're kidding Spanky. I really do.
c
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spanky
376 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:46 PM
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I'M NOT! WHO CARES WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THERE OWN BIRDS. AT LOGEST THEY AINT MESSING WITH YOUR BIRDS.
SPANKY
SGVS
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MILO
894 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:53 PM
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Increase your font. LOL
Also, take some time to read what others have posted. WE take a lot of time and put a lot of thought into our posts. YOUR post tells me you didn't even come CLOSE to understanding anything about what most of the guys here just wrote.
You want to make it personal. It's not.
c
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spanky
377 posts
Mar 15, 2008
1:00 PM
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I DONT CARE WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH THERE BIRDS. HECTOR IS MY GOOD FREIND WHAT EVER HE DOES WITH THEM BIRDS I DONT CARE. THATS THERE PROBLEM. I DONT GO CRYING ABOUT IT.
SPANKY
SGVS
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Electric-man
1290 posts
Mar 15, 2008
1:11 PM
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I don't think anyone is crying here! Just stating opinions!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 2:36 PM
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spanky
379 posts
Mar 15, 2008
1:14 PM
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VAL I KNOW YOUR NOT REFERING TO ME
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gabe454
590 posts
Mar 15, 2008
1:58 PM
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Que onda big spanky whats up with these people hommie like spanky said who cares what other people have in thier loft they can do what they want with thier birds.as long as it doest hurt you it shouldn't matter.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 2:01 PM
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ezeedad
369 posts
Mar 15, 2008
2:16 PM
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Spanky,
I know what you mean.. There seems to be a sort of witch-hunt mentality going on. A lot of judgmental finger pointing. Whispered accusations without actually coming out and naming names etc.
I believe with Sippi that unless you know there is reason to doubt another guys credibility you should accept their honesty. It is RESPECT.
Gomez
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Electric-man
1291 posts
Mar 15, 2008
2:19 PM
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LOL! That a boy Spanky! Now we're all wearing the same size pants!
Big letters scare me!LOL
I will erase my comment on "bold letters", out of respect!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 2:37 PM
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gabe454
591 posts
Mar 15, 2008
2:32 PM
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Thats right ezeead respect!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 2:33 PM
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spanky
380 posts
Mar 15, 2008
3:06 PM
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EZEEDAD, YES RESPECT
GABE WAS UP CARNAL, GRACIAS HOMIE.
VAL, NO PROBLEM.
SPANKY
SGVS
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WaTtS UpP
413 posts
Mar 15, 2008
3:09 PM
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whats up spanks aber cuando me enbitas a tu casa para mirar tu pajaros bolar whast up with you homes
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Watts uppp homeboy
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MILO
895 posts
Mar 15, 2008
3:36 PM
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You know Val.
I love being taken out of context. It's funny what this site has been reduced to. I love reading all the shout-outs to the homies and such. Now I remember why I stopped posting. Guess I'll go back into hiding and let the clicks high five each other all day. This is no place for the serious fancier.
"Peace-Out"
c
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spanky
381 posts
Mar 15, 2008
5:08 PM
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WATTS, CUANDO QUIERAS CARNAL. THE CLUB WILL BE FLYING FIRST SUNDAY OF NEXT MONTH. SI QUIERES CAILE.
SPANKY
SGVS
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PR_rollers
678 posts
Mar 15, 2008
8:17 PM
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I don't know whats the beef on here .take time to read what s in between the lines before throwing at somebody--.I personally don't like any kind of birds thats not a real Birmingham roller of today . I like them pure .but even what we have that we call pure were cross at one time-but its been many generation of cleaning out the blood.to make it pure today.and given its name .THe Birmingham roller..but what these guys are stating an opinion on is people that take a bird cross it with an mongrel or what not. and sell it or give away with another person name that the original owner would have never done.and get a bad rap..-I personally don't care what you have what you fly what you like thats your business but i got mine you got your thing..but jumping without reading can make alot of enemy's,so lets keep it real.I know they have been alot of post in the past that gotten people mad and its calls for an response. but in this post i see just people with honest opinion and nothing more..but respect is the key word .lets keep it real.. peace
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Ralph....
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sippi
139 posts
Mar 15, 2008
8:58 PM
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Respect is what is first and foremost. I respect Scotts opinion and I believe he respect my right to have mine. That said I do enjoy intelligent debates of opposing points of view. Dont go Milo you have posed those differing intelligent posts.
Now Scott you have to be careful. You cant put up a post that almosts endorese color genetics. I case you forgot. You actually only indirectly supporeted it. You and any other informed person on the issue of color genetics can spot a large percentage of mongrels by knowing the color of the parents. But I better get back on my side of the fence lest you turn the tables on me.
Viva colored rollers!
Sippi
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nicksiders
2621 posts
Mar 15, 2008
9:54 PM
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Respecting each other; respecting opinions of others. There is one thing nobody is talking about and that is respecting the breed. The idea that everyone should be able to do as they please to this breed is a misguided idea. The integrety of the breed should be always be maintained even if it is your own birds in you own backyard.......quit f------g around with this breed and be responsible to it. RESPECT THE BREED.
Nick Siders
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George R.
383 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:17 PM
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Nick
I agree what nobody understands is that the Birds are the one's that suffer .
they are never stable and always wind up as LAWN DARTS, how can anyone continue breeding birds so they can Spin for a Month or so and then wind up tasting CONCRETE or ASPHALT.
Can someone please explain this to me ... I have seen with my own two eyes several of these so called THROWBACKS or whatever they may wish to call them and they may spin for a few weeks but they ALWAYS wind up as Lawn darts !
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 10:18 PM
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SiDLoVE
208 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:44 PM
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Each to there own ...If they pay the feed bill they can do whatever....Most on this site know what a roller is and what the rules are for comp ....so fly on......we can teach..some will follow others will go on there own ..let it be we cant control everyone just YOURSELF!!! Stay Positive ..Enjoy the hobby and ROLL ON*
siDLOve
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 10:45 PM
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WaTtS UpP
431 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:56 PM
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yeah ill row up to the fly lets see what happens ive seen E s birds fly there some nice birds man whats up you coming down to the show in watts homes
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Watts uppp homeboy
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Phantom1
178 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:19 PM
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Thanks Paul for your response.
In reviewing the following posts, I've made a simple obversation. It's really easy for individuals to make profound statements about what they believe to be the utmost truth and testimant, against that which they have no hands on experience with. Not to say that an individual can't vist 10 lofts of "questionable rollers" of type, family, charactersitics, color, or physical attribures, and walk away with an opinion. We're all entitiled to that.
However, it makes about as much sense as racism. NOT to the extreme. Hey, it's only pigeons. If we're all human, what's the major impact if an individual has an American Indian as a husband or wife and their from German discent? Sure, there'll be some physical characteristics that are different from the couple next door. But are you really willing to visit every house in the county to qualify that you're the supreme breeding pair? If so, call yourself Hitler LOL!!!
Come on...
I don't post here often. The discention and bashing is really pointless. If you have your name on a friggin' pigeon and someone crosses it with something else, how does that honestly effect what you're doing? Nothing. REALLY. It doesn't effect your birds. They're someone else's birds that they bred, put their band one, and if necessary, you can defend that. End of story.
Agendas....that's what this entire topic and any other breeding practice, loft building, fly rules, fly training, feeding schedule, color breeding, sex-linked mating, etc. comes down to.
I honestly can't give any more input. This post with either get deleted, edited, or go into the archives as one of many with a simple offer to set some resemblance of peace. But then again, good debate is good debate, so I'll say again...
Tear it up,
Eric
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