elopez
809 posts
Mar 15, 2008
11:23 PM
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Well said Sid. Agree to disagree and lets show respect and try not to belittle other fanciers, we are all here to learn and gain knowledge. If someone has something different than the norm, that’s their choice. We can't force them to get rid of them or just like the birds we like.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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black_hawk_down
97 posts
Mar 16, 2008
12:00 AM
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mmm...crested muff rollers anyone? lol...-joe
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Mongrel Lofts
546 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:26 AM
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Kenny I dont think that you hear much about it because most people are ashamed that it happened in thier loft and hide/destroy the evidence.
Sippi/Hector,
I'm sure you guys would love to believe this. It just isn't so. It is just another way of miss leading the new and un-informed in our breed the Birmingham roller. Over the last 30 years, I have bred and very tightly inbred many family's of Birmingham rollers. I have known personally many of the breeders of real Birmingham rollers and none of them have bred rare color's or crest or tuffs.
Paul/Ezdad is a good example of how the odd stuff pops up. He gets a almond from a feed store he knows nothing about. Crosses it onto his Birmingham roller family, was it Norwoods birds you had Paul? Then he starts getting these birds he call Qaulmonds. Now would you say this genetic oddity just popped up within the breed? Hell NO! It came from a feed store bird with questionable color and genetic's in the first place. That is where you will find the freaks and genetic mutations 99.99999 percent of the time. What is not being told is where these oddity's really come from in most cases. It is much more likely for a man to add questionable gene's into his birds then make the claim it existed in the Birmingham roller all along Sippi. I have seen it a hundred times now. John McKernian sells Pure Monty Nieble and George Mason white bars. Pure I tell you on open list. He knows he crossed them with his other mutts to get the genetic color but he uses the men's good names to sell his crosses. This is what is really being swept under the rug. Men always try to say, well lots of people are having pink laces pop up in their lofts. They just don't tell anyone. Not True Sippi. If I ever have a mutation oddity pop up like crest or a fantail or arch angle out of my Birmingham rollers I give you my word. I will post the same here. Don't hold your breath though. I don't mess around with polluted gene pools of cross bred rollers! So like Milo said.. It's about as likely as winning the Lotto a few times in a row. Now that's the Ruff of it all. KGB
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 12:46 PM
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sippi
140 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:58 AM
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Kenny I dont wish to believe it I do believe it. I also am not nieve enough to believe that crossing in secret evil scientists laboratories does not go on. A lot more than people will admit. That is most definitely swept under the rug. I also am old enough to know that Monte Niebel didnt have white bars. I dont believe in crossing I just happened to take a mans word at face value until he proves different. Are there questionable lofts out there? You BETCHA SKIPPY!!!!!!!! Are those same lofts on this site? I dont know. I havent looked anyone on this site in the eye as they said they werent. That is a real big problem with the internet. You can call me an asshole in person if you smile. I cant tell if you are smiling on the internet.
I have been taken advantage of by the unscrouplous before and might be again. Sucker me once shame on you, Sucker me twice shame on me. It has only been relatively recently that you can find birds of quality every where on the web. When I was younger noone even knew what Birmingham rollers were and I had to get my first from Strombergs catalog. I thought in my small world those crap tumblers were the best in the world. They were the best in my whole town and maybe the surrounding counties. But I had nothing to compare them to. It is still somewhat that way here some.
I am rambling now so I will quit.
I just respect another mans opinion whether I agree with it or not.
Sippi
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nicksiders
2622 posts
Mar 16, 2008
10:41 AM
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Eric,
The insult comes when people cross a breeders bird and then continue to use thier name and pin it on the mutts they have created. It is dishonest. Then you start hearing that those opals you are looking at are Higgins birds or hearing that the crested muff rollers you are looking at are pure Pensoms.
Your reasons for not often posting here doesn't draw much water; you don't have to hold our "sins" up in front of us. Many of us like a little confrontation and love not only disagreeing, but love those who we disagree with. If you are afraid of the love thrn I can understand why you don't post here often.
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 10:43 AM
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Phantom1
179 posts
Mar 16, 2008
11:01 AM
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Nick,
I'm not singling out anyone. Offering up a broad observation of a situation is what it is.
You make a good point about someone's name being on a bird and all of a sudden it's frill stencil or something, but the "name" behind it only has blue-checks. What's funny to me is that 99% of the time, with this particular agrument, it's not someone's name...it's that broad term I hear a lot. What's it called again? Oh yeah, the Birmingham Roller. I don't see someone's name attached to that. There are too many people that are way too quick to jump on someone for them identifying their personally bred bird that doesn't fit into a certain mold - determined by someone that has absolutely nothing personal to lose.
Agendas....again. It's really pretty simple. Just call it what it is. Tell you what. I'd like to get a new family of birds because I want to fly in the FF and WC. I know my current family won't cut it. Anyone want to help me out? Probably not because I have Barless and Reduced in my backyard. Taboo baby! Learn how to disconnect your good name from a pigeon and you've probably done, what appears to be, the hardest thing you'll ever do.
Here's something else for us all to consider. If you're going to boast about your line of birds as some sacred bloodline, then you're setting yourself up for scrutiny from all angles. I could tell everyone where each of my breeders came from and the lineage since, however I realize that it doesn't matter what I know about them. If a pair gets sent off to someone, they become their birds. There aren't any strings attached. Mate them to a pit bull, cull them, eat'em....that's up to them. I guess I just don't get as protective about a pigeon as some do. And I have the benefit and ability to disconnect my personal name and association with a bird when it goes elsewhere. Sticks and stones....LOL. I personally could really care less.
You understand my reasons for not posting here often. But to spell it out, there's rarely a thread that I merit as "entertainable". You guys do a good job of keeping things going the way you'd like to have them. I have no bearing on that, nor is it an agenda of mine to change anything with regards to this forum. I can call Tony anytime and have that converstaion...for he is the owner. Anyway, my posting regularly here makes about as much sense as you posting elsewhere. Hold water? LOL!
Glad we got that off our chests :-)
Just my utmost humble opinion,
Eric
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 11:13 AM
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George R.
384 posts
Mar 16, 2008
11:20 AM
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Eric
In case you forgot I offered you a pair of Birds some time ago , so dont say that no one will help you because you have Toy stencils , milkys , or whatever you may have.
You never took me up on my offer , so who's fault is that ? I was going to give them to you all you had to do was pay the shipping.
Any way like your website says " dont ask me about performance since I dont fly my birds" I thank you for refusing to accept my offer.
Thank You
George
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sippi
142 posts
Mar 16, 2008
11:34 AM
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Nick did you read Tom Munson's post on the colors that are actually in Birmingham Rollers? He hurt my feelings. He listed all the colors I have plus several I have never seen and some I never even heard of. I aint no color breeder after all. But if someone comes out with milky or opal and I cant beat them I am going to join them. The Birmingham roller has been a moving target since the 1800's and will probably remain so as long as the rules that govern the flys change. Todays winners would not stand up in Pensoms loft.
Sippi
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Phantom1
180 posts
Mar 16, 2008
11:53 AM
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Hey George!
We must have had a breakdown in communication. I did email you to try to square your offer up. My apologies for you having the impression that I didn't want your birds. It was and is a gracious offer. My statement in my previous post is not directed at any ONE individual, merely something to add on top of the conversation and concern some individuals have surrouding a "name" or "bloodline".
I thought since you started this thread that maybe you yourself were inquisitive of these rare characteristics in the birds. I'm a bit perplexed as to why you'd pick that one statement out of both of my posts to respond to. You've done me no harm, rather offered to help. Again, my apologies go to you if that rubbed you in the wrong way. You and Tony both have offered birds to me at a VERY reasonable cost. Out of respect to Tony and our private communication, I'll not say what he offered me, but it was quite generous as was your offer.
I look forward to hearing any response you may have to any of the other things I stated.
Thanks again!
Eric
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ezeedad
380 posts
Mar 16, 2008
12:15 PM
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Kenny,
So you're still on me about my almonds?? LOL... Well, If you're going to tell the story, get it right..!!
I bought the almond cock from Aubry Sinclair who has an older and very experienced breeder. He told me that he had gotten the bird from Brooklyn Pet Shop in East L.A. The bird was 73 NBRC #5098. At that time NBRC meant good birds.
I bred it to a hen from Cornell that I describe in my records as a silver almond. Cornell raised only the highest quality..was a "Pensom Purist".. so how did this color come from his hen?
But if you want to hear something else that you can use against me.. I used an unrung cock that I knew nothing about. Oh yeah...and I mated him to a spangle hen that I bought from a petshop in Santa Monica. I bred one of the best birds I have ever had out of those two birds... This was in 1963..
So what should I do Kenny... Scrap my family?
Really I think most of the crossing and experimentation that goes on is done by the beginner in a naive effort to have instant success. By the time a breeder is serious they know that those efforts will only slow down their progress. The best way to breed good rollers is to use good rollers. This is regardless of what ever superficial qualities the bird may have.. such as different color, muffs, crests, short beaks. Birmingham Rollers have always been a colorful breed and were originally distinguished from other performers by the quality of their performance.
I believe that most breeders would do better to look forward to improve what they have from the birds they have on their own property. There is too much crossing within the breed. But I also believe that there is no need for an anal preoccupation with "purity". And if something unusual pops up there is nothing to panic about. Didn't a guy get a yellow out of your strain Kenny?
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Scott
249 posts
Mar 16, 2008
12:43 PM
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( Todays winners would not stand up in Pensoms loft.
Sippi)
Why is that Sippi ? a great bird then would still be great bird now and visa versa , many lofts aren't all that far down from Pensoms top stock.
I would venture to say though that there are far more good birds now, actualy I have seen a huge difference in even the last 10 years.
I saw your reply to that post on another site, my advice is get some birds from him and find out for yourself, better yet let me save you some frustration and time and don't.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 12:50 PM
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Scott
250 posts
Mar 16, 2008
12:45 PM
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( Didn't a guy get a yellow out of your strain Kenny?)
Now that there is both impossible and funny, you can't get what isn't there, funny what pops up out of your birds once they are in some new flyers hands and out of lofts with questionable birds in them.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 12:47 PM
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ezeedad
381 posts
Mar 16, 2008
1:19 PM
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Scott,
I know how tight kenny breeds his birds... Maybe I'm wrong.. It wouldn't be the first time. But a guy on Earls' Roller Page posted a picture saying it was Kennys strain.. Guess we might hear from him..
Gomez
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Scott
254 posts
Mar 16, 2008
1:34 PM
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Paul,
Hear from who Paul ?
The fact is you won't find yellow in any of the Pensom mainline stuff.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 1:36 PM
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nicksiders
2623 posts
Mar 16, 2008
1:53 PM
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Eric,
Dilutes have been around since the beginning of the....ah Birmingham Roller, so you don't have to hide them(LOL).
Nick
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nicksiders
2624 posts
Mar 16, 2008
2:02 PM
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Eric,
I miss read your post. I transpossed the word "dilute" from "reduced". My bad.
Nick
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 2:03 PM
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kcfirl
367 posts
Mar 16, 2008
2:05 PM
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Scott,
not sure what you mean by "mainlne Pensoms" but yellow is certainly a color found in birds Pensom owned and in many lines of rbirds descened from his stock with no outcrossing.
On page 71 of "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by William H Pensom and others, there is a pictue of a yellow self hen NPA 44-1209. The hen is owned by Bob Evans - the Pensom purist who started the PRC and helped kick Pensom out because he imported some competition badges.
There is no more pure PEnsom exisitng today than this Yellow bird bred in 1944 by Bob Evans.
You guys need to lose some for this vehemence.
IF anyhting - I would say you and KGB are certainly more color breeders than Pensom or the men of the Black Country ever were - they had many colors in their lofts, and muffs, and crests.
Do guys cross other breeds in for certain colors, of course. Buyer beware of course. But this mean spirited tirade against anyone that shows a picture of somehting other than a clean legged self bird is only doing the hobby a disservice.
You should instead be telling guys to go get birds from top competitors and guys who value the real deal - irrespective of color or muff.
Purely(no pun intended) my opinion.
Ken Firl
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Phantom1
182 posts
Mar 16, 2008
2:19 PM
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Cool - Glad to see that Reduced is now recognized as a Birmingham Roller color/factor. However, that's not really a point I was trying to make in my previous posts.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 2:20 PM
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Scott
255 posts
Mar 16, 2008
2:51 PM
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Ken, you won't find it in any of the his main lines and that includes the Starley Easly stuff that you are working , nor in the Borges/Mc Cully ect. ect..
But according to Joe Borges he (Pensom) did have yellows on the property because they "sold" well,from what I understand Pensom imported the yellows in for Evans who's claim to fame evolved more around showing than flying.
I also think that Rec. yellows are one of the most beautiful colors in the breed, although I myself have never seen a truely good one.
As for myself, the dark checks/smokey blue dominence in my birds has nothing to do with breeding for it, it is where the roll led me where my birds are concerned.
And to be honest it can be a real pain in the ass when it comes to identfying the good ones even though I have gotten better at it even with an all blue based kits, I wish there was more variable in my birds but I'm not going to add it in just for the sake of it either.
As for Kennys birds and other birds that he has on the property you will see quite a bit more variable than here since my birds followed the few key birds that used for my family.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 3:33 PM
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ezeedad
382 posts
Mar 16, 2008
3:43 PM
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Ken Firl,
Wellsaid. I can't really add much to what you said...
Let's not nitpick and bicker... Just enjoy.
Gomez
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Phantom1
183 posts
Mar 16, 2008
3:54 PM
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Well put Scott,
If I'm interpreting you're last post correctly, I believe you and I are saying the same thing. By the way, yes Rec. Yellow is purdy bird LOL although I presonally wouldn't house one. But anyway, if you look at what you have in your family. Then look at Kenny. Then another, and another, and another. There's going to be variations across the gament. Although not widely known, publicized, or recognized, there will be some of the "quick to target" oddities. I believe if the breeder is following the path to their own perfection (whatever that may be), scrutiny of what the physical attributes of one's birds hold is of no true relevance. It won't effect that breeder's decision. Their own failure to excel in their goals will do that.
I could sit back in my comfy lawn chair and look at my birds and just as easily say that anyone that has nothing but Rec. Reds and Blacks must be doing something wrong. But if that's the direction their breeding program takes them, I can't contest that nor do I have a right to.
That's basically the point of my recent posts. Perhaps this will clear some of the mud up for others. I feel pretty confident that you and I are on the same page with this point.
Hope all is well Scott, and best wishes in 2008!
Eric
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sippi
143 posts
Mar 16, 2008
4:30 PM
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Scott I was referring to competition birds. Not individuals. I also have read all of Pensoms writings but I will re-read them before I quote anything. I think the comp rules have bred away from Pensoms description of a champion and I think you will agree. As far as color I had asked you a while back about regression to blue. The reason I asked is that all my birds will be black bald heads and blue grizzles in another year if I keep following the roll. And I fully intend to follow the roll. I believe in setting a bar and when that one is achieved raise it. I have always done this with my birds and will continue to. I think the fact that the PRC has for the most part pulled out of competition bears out the facts about todays winners not making the grade in Pensoms loft.
By the way were you referring to the post about why there were so few pure Pensom breeders?
I cant debate when I am confused!!
Sippi
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Scott
257 posts
Mar 16, 2008
5:07 PM
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(I think the comp rules have bred away from Pensoms description of a champion and I think you will agree.)
Sippi , to even try to understand stand what Pensom wrote and the context of such you really need to read and study all of his writings through the many years.
The W/C has done far more for the breed than any of the old timers would have ever imagined, bear in mind that is "one" fly a year.
The rules are nothing but guide lines for the fly,nothing more nothing less , it doesn't change what I am looking for in a bird or what and how I breed one bit.
A bird is always an individule first and foremost, a team is an accumulation of such birds.
As for the new PRC guys, they do what they do and more power to them, thier birds come out of the same stock as the top flyers in the country and I can assure you thier best is no better than the best of many lofts.
Personaly I don't get all wrapped up in champion this or that, in fact I never use the term, but I can assure you that I know what a good frigging pigeon is.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 5:09 PM
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sippi
145 posts
Mar 16, 2008
5:47 PM
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Here here. Scott did I get under your skin. We finally agreed on your last post. Problem is I think there are people on both sides of this debate that know what a good bird is. You just need to credit them with it. And then when it comes time to put up then you may have an argument.
Sippi
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Scott
258 posts
Mar 16, 2008
5:58 PM
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A mutt is a mutt and the Birmingham Roller is an established breed, pretty basic really and actually it isn't just one hobby/sport.
There are those that use crossbreeds for color genetics/crests ect. which is a hobby all it's own.
Then there is the other that evolves strictly performance and around the Birmingham Roller, and in some cases some have some of the off shoots of the crossbreds buried into the Birmingham Roller that are strictly performance bred without giving any thought to the mutt color.
God forbid that some learn the difference between the distinction.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 6:18 PM
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Scott
259 posts
Mar 16, 2008
6:04 PM
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( Problem is I think there are people on both sides of this debate that know what a good bird is. You just need to credit them with it. And then when it comes time to put up then you may have an argument. )
Not really looking for an argument Sippi , but to be honest there are only a handful that I hands down trust to know what a truely good bird is to begin with, of coarse there are many more than that handful also.
What is the other side ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 6:19 PM
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Scott
260 posts
Mar 16, 2008
6:27 PM
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(Here here. Scott did I get under your skin.)
You lost me here Sippi, why would you get under my skin ? Honestly no one here gets under my skin, we are nothing here but a bunch pigeon Geeks talking pigeon Geek stuff.
I happen to like everyone here posting here, including Cliff .
Ken Firl hammers on me quite often here and we agree on almost nothing where it comes to these birds , yet I consider him a friend and we talk often.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 6:28 PM
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George R.
389 posts
Mar 16, 2008
6:30 PM
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great Scott
I dont agree with everyone either but I still consider everyone my friend .
I dont agree with everyone in my Family , but guess what
were still Family LOL.
By the way Im sure they say the same about me LOL
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 6:31 PM
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Phantom1
184 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:01 PM
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Hey Scott,
I have a question pertaining to a response you made. Not having Birmingham Rollers, nor claim to, you stated that is a breed.
My question. What is your opinion/position to the many fliers and fanciers that have "pure" lines in which the physical characterics vary from far right to far left? Just here in North Texas, I've seen "BRs" that are the size and body type of a Donek, over to "BRs" that if I didn't know better were Ringneck Doves LOL! I mean, if we all were blind and had to handle 100 birds from 100 lofts, I don't think there's any way anyone could be certain...ah yes...THE Birmingham Roller. Certainly you could ascertain if the bird was being flown or wasn't. But that's about it.
So my questioning, again not having the breed but observing the variations in it, is how does that make it an established breed?
This is just my opinion of course. But I don't believe that's any more of an established breed than a Cockapoo or...well...a mutt. It evidently doesn't breed true from loft to loft. Whether under strict conditions or lax conditions...there remains a variation in not only physical characteristics, but performance. I hate comparisions and analogies, but here goes. If I wanted a German Shepard for a dog. I know what my choices are in color. But I know when I get the dog as a pup, it will grow and mature into a characteristic German Shepard. With the exception of a few lofts, it's my observation that any two birds look, handle, and resemble each other much less the rest of the family and population.
So my overall opinion is that the BR is, to this day, under development. Otherwise, everyone would have the same BR as the next guy and no one would have any need for the steadfast pursuit of ultimate performance. This breed is too lucrative in its existence to define. Too many people going in too many directions.
Just some thoughts...
Eric
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 8:01 PM
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kcfirl
369 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:13 PM
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Scott,
I must admit, I've never seen a great yellow either. I've seen some decent ones, but never one I would want to take home and breed from.
Ken
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sippi
147 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:14 PM
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Scott I should have said " here here Cliff". I didnt mean to be confusing. As for getting under you skin your post seem to culminate in pent up aggression. I enjoy the debates and dont want anyone pissed off. But that said I am tired of this one.
Sippi
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ezeedad
383 posts
Mar 16, 2008
8:18 PM
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Scott,
One pigeon geek to another.. Is there really anything such as purity in our breed? Could you put your hand on a Bible and swear that your birds are pure? After all don't we know that B.Rs were made by crossing breeds that existed before? So at what point did they become pure?
Gomez
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Scott
262 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:03 PM
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(After all don't we know that B.Rs were made by crossing breeds that existed before? So at what point did they become pure?
Gomez )
What breed of domestic bird or mammel wasn't Paul ? under that thinking there is no such thing as a "breed" in anything, might as well strike that word out of the dictionary
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 9:32 PM
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Scott
263 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:13 PM
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Eric, take a look at every top loft in the country and you will see a consistacy in every aspect of the breed, and that includes the English birds, size depends on what is bred for and every breed has culls as far asbeing "off".
By the way, that English bird at the top of the thread , cut off the crest, and that bird still doesn't represent top shelf bird by any stretch.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2008 9:15 PM
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Scott
264 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:33 PM
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(I enjoy the debates and dont want anyone pissed off. But that said I am tired of this one.
Sippi )
You and me both ! I'm done
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
396 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:37 PM
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Heres some more muffs!!
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George R.
397 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:37 PM
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George R.
398 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:40 PM
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Scott
See any resemblence? these Birds and others Pics in here ?
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BLUETT1983
19 posts
Mar 17, 2008
12:25 AM
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Good looking bird's .......Hector Coya
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Dominique Bluett's Birmingham Roller Loft"
O8 NBRC.....
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ezeedad
385 posts
Mar 17, 2008
6:34 AM
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Scott,
My point is that if you look back in the pedigrees of the so-called purists that you will find the same questionable things that they are criticizing others for.
Also, most breeds of animals were made primarily by inbreeding not ny crossing... though there may have been crossing in the beginning....
Gomez
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nicksiders
2625 posts
Mar 17, 2008
7:03 AM
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George,
I hope you ain't going to tell us those birds are rollers.
Nick
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
473 posts
Mar 17, 2008
9:09 AM
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George you crack me up .LOL LOL YOU INSTIGATER!!!!LOLOL
R-LUNA
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MILO
896 posts
Mar 17, 2008
9:51 AM
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Some of you guys are missing the whole point. I think everyone will agree that the breed had to be made by melting pot, and that now after many years of hard work, we have an established breed. Why are people still crossing in other breeds? Most importantly why are people not only denying it, but insisting on smearing other breeders names by claiming a genetic mutation theory? There are andalusions, yellows, and many other color patterns, and from what I can tell, a newfound love for crests and other physical attributes in rollers. That's fine and dandy, but why move backwards? Why breed for these things? This is a performance breed. I read all these posts and wonder why people make their arguments based on personalities, or personal practice, but it is about the rollers. The best thing I've read in here lately is Scott's ball comment. You take your eye off the ball, and you are done. That means if you select a roller based on how it looks as opposed to how it performs, you will never have anything worth watching in the air.
c
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Mongrel Lofts
547 posts
Mar 17, 2008
10:24 PM
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Cliff,
Well said. I agree with you on a lot of your post. You can fly a kit of English Trumpeters in the NATIONAL Birmingham Roller Club. If they roll the best in the fly or all other kits get a DQ, your English Trumpeters win the National Birmingham roller club fly.
What some of us are trying to share with the new guys and the hobby, is there is a breed Called the Birmingham roller. It has a long history and there are many birds out there that have not been crossed not even once since coming into the USA on any other breed of pigeon other than the Birmingham roller that was imported into this country. Not all Birmingham rollers in the USA have been crossed on other breeds to get toy stencil, Pencil, Milky and other factors off of other breeds of pigeons. Some have crossed other breeds onto the Birmingham roller for feather color and now crest, tuffs and the like. Nothing wrong with that at all. If that is what you like, go for it.. Just Don't try and tell Me you haven't changed the breed at all and the birds are still the same as they have always been. There are not many but there are still a few Breeders in the USA left that respect the breed Birmingham roller and keep it as a pure breed. We can't say that we keep birds pure and not crossed up, without offending those that keep the cross breeds. They don't want anyone to think what they have is anything but a pure Birmingham roller, just like the real Birmingham roller. That is Hog wash!!
What I do agree with you about. Is that if they can roll as good or better than any thing in the competition, Then they should win the fly. If they do win the fly, that doesn't make them Birmingham rollers. It just makes them a winning kit of some kind of roller! American created from breeds never used in the Birmingham roller Cliff. So some of us think a little different about the breed than you and some of the others who are in control of the National Birmingham roller club these days. Pick them for some oddity not known in the original breed. Thats fine with me. Give your opinion and I will give mine. For me, if a oriental roller rolls fast and tight for 40 feet, he is still an oriental roller! To you guys it would be a Birmingham roller because it rolls well. Never mind it has 14 tail feathers and is an oriental roller. It's a Birmingham roller if it rolls and you say it is. Well, to many I guess this is logical thinking. I just happen to think it is still an Oriental roller that rolls well. It's performance did not change it from an oriental into a Birmingham roller. Just call me crazy! KGB
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2008 10:32 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
564 posts
Mar 17, 2008
10:50 PM
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It would be interesting visiting some one who had a team of all crested rollers - one that derived from crossing another breed to get the crest vs. a family that naturally breeds crest (UK strain).
On a side note, I was told by the veteran fliers here that before they adopted the World Cup and the NBRC Fly (11 bird) rules... one could win a fly simply from a team of Racing Homers. Reason is half your score would come from kitting and the other half come from rolling.
If breeding for crest makes you happy, stock for it. Just don't say that you are breeding for performance. Same thing goes for type, eyes, muffs, etc.
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2008 10:51 PM
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elopez
833 posts
Mar 17, 2008
11:57 PM
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Nice looking Breeders George. Don't think there rollers though. Good luck with them. Muff and crested and colorful, oh my...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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Mongrel Lofts
548 posts
Mar 18, 2008
8:37 AM
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My question. What is your opinion/position to the many fliers and fanciers that have "pure" lines in which the physical characterics vary from far right to far left? Just here in North Texas, I've seen "BRs" that are the size and body type of a Donek, over to "BRs" that if I didn't know better were Ringneck Doves LOL! I mean, if we all were blind and had to handle 100 birds from 100 lofts, I don't think there's any way anyone could be certain...ah yes...THE Birmingham Roller. Certainly you could ascertain if the bird was being flown or wasn't. But that's about it.
Eric,
So if you went to a show and you closed your eyes and a guy handed you a helmet. If you couldn't tell with your eye's closed that it was a helmet. Then it must be a Birmingham Roller? HUH Or if you have a bigger helmet and one that came small, they both may not be helmets? Odd thinking, to point out breeds don't have larger and smaller birds within the breed. I think your trying to say we don't have a breed Birmingham roller because we get some birds that are bigger than others? Makes NO sense at all.. Just my opinion.. KGB
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2008 8:40 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
549 posts
Mar 18, 2008
8:48 AM
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George R,
Those Really look the part of what many call Birmingham roller today. Same color's and huge muffs! I'm struck by the expression displayed by the crested muff's.. The expression is very much the same as the new york flights. Mooky heads and stance with new york flight expression. I will see if I can find a picture of a NY flight and stand them side by side.. Should be an eye opener. If I get time I will go look one up, NY flight that is.. KGB
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kcfirl
372 posts
Mar 18, 2008
9:14 AM
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Scott,
acually I think we agree on most things about these birds when we are standing under a kit wathcing them. I bet you we both would score 10 kits in the exact same order in a comp fly. the difference would be that I would be awarding more points and have a larger gap between the highest multipliers and the lowest. But, we would both want the ame birds to bring home with us!
KGB - well said about the need to keep the breed pure as much as we can and that we can damage the breed by indiscrimate mixing with other breeds. I'm with you on that one.
regards,
Ken Firl
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Ballrollers
1113 posts
Mar 18, 2008
12:56 PM
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Ken
No! You're not crazy. You are an experienced successful roller flyer. The main difference in "opinions" is that we differ on the "definition" of a Birmingham Roller. I tend to go along with the wording used in the NBRC/WC. Yes, it is a broad vague statement. I will give you that. But I think that the nature of the Birmingham "breed" , is vague and broadly defined to begin with.
If one believes a BR must be a certain color and have its feathers just so and must meet a performance standard, well, fine. You are more than welcome to that opinion. But that opinion is not held by the National Birmingham Roller Club or the World Cup. Even Pensom was satisfied with a performance standard and definition. If the leadership of these organizations can support the wording in their Bylaws and Constitutions and you are a participant in these organizations, why condemn them now?
My opinion is that a bird must meet the performance standard FIRST and foremost. My opinion, is that colors and feathers do not affect a birds ability to perform.
My opinion is that the " long history" you mention, is just that; a long and varied history. It is not a complete scientific study of the early development of a performance roller that gained popularity in Birmingham England decades ago. There is nothing that indicates to me that the performance Roller has finished its development. I reserve my respect for a roller that performs, regardless of family, and for me, that is the defining factor.
I agree 100% about Oriental Rollers, here we have a distinct physical difference to other performing rollers. If we were in a pitch black room and we could hold a blue check self with no crests and no muffs, could you "feel" any difference between that bird and a performance roller carrying the indigo factor? Probably not. Sure you got a 50% chance of being right/wrong, but could most of the men who fly nothing but "pure" BR's detect any real difference in type? No way. Hey! We should try this at the next convention. Are you and Scotty coming?
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2008 12:36 PM
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