Ballrollers
1114 posts
Mar 18, 2008
1:32 PM
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Ken
I see another small difference in our opinions:
Performance rollers must EARN the title of Birmingham Roller.
Some roller men appear to be willing to grant the title based on family or pedigree, alone; even when there is little or no performance, as has been evident for many, many years.
Maybe we are not so far apart on this issue.
YITS,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1116 posts
Mar 19, 2008
5:32 AM
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Ken
Our conversations are never pointless. Every time we discuss these issues, new information is revealed to new members . You have your opinions and I have mine. Yet we are both committed to raising the performance bar for our birds. The facts are there for each man to read and decide for himself. Should his opinion be based on that of a few outspoken men or should he respect the words and ideas found in the NBRC and WC constitution and bylaws?
I think you are a fine rollerman. I just don't agree with some of your opinions but that doesn't mean , I don't respect them. I look forward to our next discussion.
Just for the record:
I have never added anything to my birds, for color or for performance. I don't have to. Both are already there.
I don't know a single roller man that is crossing other breeds into Rollers. And I researched this issue!
If it looks like a roller, if it performs like a roller, guess what? IT IS A ROLLER! What ever color it is.
Now before anybody gets their knickers in a twist, it is my opinion and other fine men may disagree.
I have another opinion I want to share with you.
IF a breed, of anything, looses its popularity and falls from grace, it is usually because a better one takes its place.
Till the next time.
Cliff
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Scott
270 posts
Mar 19, 2008
6:08 AM
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(Should his opinion be based on that of a few outspoken men or should he respect the words and ideas found in the NBRC and WC constitution and bylaws?)
This is a new twist, what does the bylaws of the W/C and NBRC have to do with anything where this topic is concerned ? it is a Birmingham Roller Club and Birmingham Roller fly, just because the NBRC or W/C doesn't "address" the crosses doesn't mean anything, the fact is not that many are flying or breeding the crosses in the big Flys.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2008 6:46 AM
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Phantom1
185 posts
Mar 19, 2008
9:10 AM
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Hey Kenny,
Hope all is well. Good argument. And you're right to propose the same challenge in reference to Helmets. My argument was to those that want this elusive BR to fit in this tiny box of requirements in order to call it a BR. There are people out there like this. Some of the same people look at a picture that could have been doctored to the extreme and say, "Wow, now that's a Champion!!!". I'm beginning to think that the Birmingham Roller is as elusive as a sasquatch. A lot of questionable photos, but no bodies uncovered LOL!
To deny certain characteristcs in today's rollers are not the result of cross breeding, would be 100% niave. To the contrary, to deny that there are certain characteristics that are throw backs (only by way of breeding towards and/or around them) would be equally as niave. Note that I am not stating anything with muffs or a crest must be a throw back, because we know in our heart of hearts that isn't the case. Some of the recent pics of muffed birds are expressing Qualmond and Bronze - two common factors in WOE Tumblers. Hmmmm, only because I see a common characteristic in color and feather features, doesn't mean it's a cross, a throw back, nor a champion.
Good luck this year!
Eric
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2008 9:28 AM
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MILO
897 posts
Mar 19, 2008
12:54 PM
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Cliff.
I was almost totally with you until this last post. You made some really good points up to that...but completely lost me on this last one...LOL
"I don't know a single roller man that is crossing other breeds into Rollers. And I researched this issue!"
Surely you can spot a cross on this list right? I mean, have you ever thought to yourself, "Hmmm, that bird just aint quite right..."? Please tell us about your research here. I would love to know what you discovered.
"If it looks like a roller, if it performs like a roller, guess what? IT IS A ROLLER!"
Ya, but not a Birmingham Roller. A Dalmation can retrieve...Sure as heck doesn't make it a retriever. Right?
"IF a breed, of anything, loses its popularity and falls from grace, it is usually because a better one takes its place."
Are you saying the Birmingham Roller can be improved, by some other means besides using what most consider to be an already established breed? Are you implying that crossbreeding can improve it? I am not sure what you are going for here...I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth either. Is there something that is superior to the BR? I am not sure where you are going with that one. Maybe you may want to elaborate.
c
Also, Eric.
The Birmingham Roller is not elusive. Come over to my house and I'll show you some. In fact, that's all I have. Naivity is when guys post pictures of their birds claiming to be Birmingham Rollers, and they look like just about anything but that. Funky-goofy-ass crosses. I wouldn't take some of those things if they duct-taped them to my hands. Bad, bad, bad. I don't have enough experience with other breeds to tell you what was used in the creation of some of these Frankenrollers. My experience is with the Birmingham Roller, and I can most definitely tell you what a Birmingham Roller DOESN'T look like. I hope everyone in here posts pictures of their best performers... I would be insulting you guys if I posted pictures of my birds that didn't spin like heck, or in the very least, roll well. I would be wasting your time. Right? JMO.
c
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Phantom1
186 posts
Mar 19, 2008
1:17 PM
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Hey Milo,
Good to know you're confident with your birds and that they are the breed you want them to be. I'm not here to contest whos birds are and are not Birmingham Rollers. Rather that there are a lot of folks that have a Black that looks just like a whole lot of others. Heck, all my spread birds go back to Wilky Wilkerson who got them from Pensom and they've been bred pure like that since I got them in 1989. With the exception of one Brown Hen. So sense Pensom had BRs, that means Wilky had BRs. Now that they're in my hands and I don't fly them, they're no long BRs. I personally don't have a problem with someone saying that. It just makes it impossible to look at one of my blacks and say "Something just ain't right about that bird" when you're not going to say the same thing about a black that gets let out every day.
As I stated to Kenny, to deny that crosses aren't going on and that results of such crosses are being posted here regularly, would be completely niave. Taking everything at face value can be equally as harmful. As Scott has said, if you want the real deal, get out of your own backyard. I might add, validate that the lineage is pure not just from the flier you're looking at getting birds from. Obtaining quality stock is important for anyone, and quality varies in importance from person to person I guess.
I still have my own opinion, and am entitled to it, about the Birmingham Roller. I'm not here to bash it. I'm just as supportive of it as I am the next breed. I guess maybe I haven't seen enough of them to validate my own confidence that it's a true breed. Rather and ideal pigeon under development from loft to loft. I quatify that statment with saying, more people would have more equal quality and a higher percentage of good birds rather than culls would be produced than what is currently being flown and discussed. This is only an opinion and I guess if someone says they have Birmingham Rollers, who am I to say otherwise. I only know I don't have them...
Eric
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Scott
271 posts
Mar 19, 2008
1:45 PM
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(Are you saying the Birmingham Roller can be improved, by some other means besides using what most consider to be an already established breed? Are you implying that crossbreeding can improve it? I am not sure what you are going for here...I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth either. Is there something that is superior to the BR? I am not sure where you are going with that one. Maybe you may want to elaborate.)
Yea, that was a silly statement, the only thing that is improved it the cross, without the Birmingham Roller it would be impossible.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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MILO
898 posts
Mar 19, 2008
3:26 PM
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LOL Firl.
c
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MILO
899 posts
Mar 19, 2008
7:05 PM
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One more thing Eric.
You said:
"I qualify that statment with saying, more people would have more equal quality and a higher percentage of good birds rather than culls would be produced than what is currently being flown and discussed."
No. That is the nature of the hobby itself. We have to identify, cultivate, and maintain the propensity to roll in our birds. That is the challenge. There will always be culls. As if Pensom himself didn't have any...LOL
c
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gabe454
630 posts
Mar 19, 2008
7:09 PM
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Come on guys let it go.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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ezeedad
397 posts
Mar 19, 2008
7:16 PM
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Wow..KGB... We may not see eye about just a few little things... but I agree 100% with you on this one..!!
"The NBRC promoted and made two tapes showing how to breed rollers on other breeds for color, factors and patterns. They used the members money to promote Mongrelizing The breed Birmingham roller! A travisty to the breed and the men who respect the breed in my opinion."
Phantom, You always have some good things to say... Why aren't you flying..?? Is it just temporary ..like me?
Gomez
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Phantom1
187 posts
Mar 19, 2008
7:28 PM
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Milo,
I know from experience that I tend to say things that get under your skin. For that, I apologize. You do however, always seem to have an "end all" statement to anything I bring up. And my commenting does seem to bring you out of the woodwork. I'd enjoy reading more of your input to others across the board on a regular basis.
Eric
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MILO
900 posts
Mar 19, 2008
7:58 PM
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Wow. Didn't realize I was so awful. LOL I know I come off that way, but I only really comment on the things I see as wrong. I really agreed with most of what you had to say. Takes a lot more than that to get under my skin. I am cool with almost any discussion, as long as the responses are intelligent, clear, concise, and aren't just aimless personal attacks. Take care.
c
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MILO
901 posts
Mar 19, 2008
8:05 PM
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Triple "G"
Let what go? It's great when people get the wheels turning. This is the best thread going right now. Good enough for me to say something. When we all agree...it's all ZZZZZ's.
c
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George R.
412 posts
Mar 19, 2008
8:37 PM
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I guess the best way to prove what the birds are capable of doing is in the AIR.
The World Cup is right around the Corner so Gentelmen get you Troopers ready and let the SHOW begin.
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Phantom1
188 posts
Mar 19, 2008
9:08 PM
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Hey Gomez!
I don't fly mainly because I simply don't have the time. When I say fly, I mean in the most simple version - backyard. I'm not even a backyard flier...I'm a backyard pigeon breeder.
I've flown in the past and have a grip on what it means to have good control over your kit. It's just not something I have the time for and I realize that. Secondly, is the amount of frustration it usually brings me LOL. So, at this time, I've chosen to just enjoy my birds while doing what I can to bring in proven breeders when necessary, and build around those birds.
But again, I'll re-emphasize that I don't have Birmingham Rollers. I simply have birds that roll and/or have the potential to roll. I guess just with Birmingham Rollers, I'll have my culls too LOL!!!!
Simply put, it's a hobby today for me, not a sport.
Eric
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Phantom1
189 posts
Mar 19, 2008
9:10 PM
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Milo,
Thanks for the clarification. I've just noticed that you tend to have a lot of comment to my posts. Guess that's why their up there though. As I said in my first on on this thread...
Tear it up LOL!!!
Eric
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ezeedad
398 posts
Mar 19, 2008
9:42 PM
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Hey Phantom,
That's what's great about pigeons... You can enjoy them any way you choose. No one can tell you what to do or how to do it. Just have fun...!
Gomez
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