Ballrollers
1140 posts
Apr 19, 2008
6:41 PM
|
Nick
If you had to pick one over-riding factor that you prize over any other in your pigeons, what would that be? Would it be color, or feather quality, or number of tail feathers, feathers on feet or legs(or naked legs), crests fore or aft, pedigree, eye color, keel depth, length of the beak ? What would it be? I wonder, because I have seen you post on roller sites that your birds are crap, and that you are frustrated because after 30 years in the hobby, you are still unable to field a decent kit of rollers. Those are your words, not mine.
If you choose, as most of us do who fly competitively, you choose PERFORMANCE. Perhaps your problem lies in the fact that you have chosen something other than performance to hang your hat on, so to speak. Many a roller man has been led down the primrose path of choosing pedigree first in the hopes of scoring decent birds; only to be frustrated when the birds do not have the goods. It is because of performance and performance alone, that we respect the integrity of the breed; for performance alone defines the breed.
Tell me about the colors of your birds. Did you add any of those colors to your birds? I bet you took whatever family you chose and bred from them just as they came to you; just as I did.
Take the Dutch tumbler , how many different color modifiers are found in them? Did they add Recessive red to them for performance? Did they add ash red to them for performance? Did they add spread to them for performance? Hmmmm.
This date you mention that the Birmingham roller "breed" was set in stone, have you not read about all of the stories of guys in England continuing to cross in other breeds to achieve their performance goals? And I'm sure you know that there was open loft breeding, regular swapping around of birds, and trying to trap in other men's birds. Does this still sound like a pure breed at that point in time, to you? Do you believe that all improvement of the birds stopped at that earlier point in time, or that the basic performance characteristics became recognized around that date in time? Do you believe that 100 years ago the breeders of performance roller pigeons scattered around the world had the education and knowledge to identify color modifiers? Do you think they cared? Even today, the genetic understanding is very limited in the roller fancy..... to the point many do not even know as indigo factored roller , when they see it......and I have seen it in many families of rollers that men are not aware of.
I have birds from the Turner family , I have many different color modifiers found with in this gene pool, But I didn't put them there, I didn't go through years and years of intense breeding to produce a colorful performing roller. I took that family and bred out of them because they were winning National Championships, and because they possesse the frequency, speed, quality and depth of performance that I was looking for. The colors and modifiers are just "there". But those colors do not define my pigeons, the performance does.
If we took one of your pigeons and one of my pigeons and turned off the lights, you could not tell the difference between the two. The only difference is the color variations found on the feathers.
If performance is the name of this game, choose whatever family you want. IF you like color modifiers or if you do not like color modifiers, that is your personal preference. Today's Birmingham Roller "breed" contains enough color modifiers to make everyone happy.... Or unhappy as the case may be.
Cliff
|
RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1513 posts
Apr 19, 2008
6:42 PM
|
Very Excellent Post Brian...............
Cuzzzzzz.......................
----------
RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2366 posts
Apr 19, 2008
7:28 PM
|
Hey Brian, Thanks for the in-depth response. ;-)
Just so its clear, I was not asking you or anyone else to “speak” for the NBRC or its membership. I merely was asking the others and especially you because of you have served as a volunteer for a long time. I was merely thinking that with your experience and relationships, you might have a good sense of what the position of the leadership of the NBRC has been over the years. As an organization that represents over 2 thousands members, it’s position might be important or at least relevant to the debate in general.
I think it is wise when a representative of the NBRC addresses a potentially if not reliably controversial issue that he/she states that their opinions being expressed are their own and not those of the NBRC. I agree, that the person expressing such views might offend some readers. Their credibility and integrity might come into question and make for a difficult time representing the position held.
The way you expressed how you handle judging seems to me a man intent on being fair and impartial. I commend you for holding yourself to such a standard, a great example for all to follow.
As for your fictional example that resembles my situation, I have learned over the years, since 2004, to let things be. Initially, I too took a hard-line on the issue and have had numerous debates here myself. However, I never put anyone down by using the word “mongrel” as a pejorative. I suppose I have pissed some of with my debating style, but that has nothing to do with the birds…lol
There are many many topics and things that happen on this site that I have learned to let go or slide. Most things blow over and in time, forgotten by most. I get much enjoyment and satisfaction running the site, I am living my dream and nothing else compares to that. So, to ensure RPDC continues to grow and serve the greatest number of visitors as possible, (as I have learned the hard way), and now (along with Val) are paying extra attention to try and tone down discussions that start to get out of hand and try to keep things from getting ugly. There are a few who even let me know when there is a posting violation. The community does allot of self-policing.
The point is, I DO want people to recommend the site to their friends because we are open to having open and honest discussion and debate that is respectful of one another. Whenever someone starts to “poke the cat” on this “mongrel” issue, there are plenty of cat lovers who will scratch back! Lol
Did Nick poke the cat? In my view he did. He is getting scratched for doing so. Will he do it again? Only he knows. When anyone seeks to belittle, minimize or mildly mock someone else’s hard work, efforts and ideas, (turning color into roll), then the poker should expect a little poke back.
Brian, I have always had respect for you and your opinions, you are one of the few who have forgotten more about rollers than most of us will ever know! Thanks for being a regular here and on the chat, I do notice you being there. Thanks for being a part of the Roller-Pigeon.Com online experience!
With All Respect!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
nicksiders
2705 posts
Apr 19, 2008
8:10 PM
|
Brian,
I am judging in the WC. I will not look at a man's birds before or after he flys. I decided that years ago. I will judge only the performance; nothing else.
I understand what people percieve is thier reality and I will carefully do and say the things that will enhance thier perception of me.
So, come down off of that horse you have been riding; I am not impressed.
Nick
|
rollerpigeon1963
248 posts
Apr 19, 2008
8:27 PM
|
Nick,
No horse I just get tired of people slamming on the hobby where we get no where or make it harder for the next guy to fill our boots.
Now if you want and play a little harder we can do that too but I don't like to play well LOL LOL
I rather ride a horse than show off my @ss
Brian
|
nicksiders
2706 posts
Apr 19, 2008
8:33 PM
|
Cliff,
I know exactly what I am doing? You make it sound as if I have plotted and planned to piss off as many people as I can. If I have pissed off people it is not my intention. It was only an opinion and it was about pigeons. It was not an opinion about you or anyone else. Do you honestly believe that I am so divious and mean spirited that I would purposely piss off even one person?
You have the audasity to sound like you even know me and my motives. If you knew me you would have known that I don't have any motives in what I say or do; I just say or do what I feel when I feel it; I am alot more simple then you think............I don't think I am stupid, but I am simple.
So you can blow out the torch that you was wanting to use to burn down what good reputation I have left and find yourself someone else to burn. I did a good job of burning myself and don't need your help.
Nick
|
nicksiders
2707 posts
Apr 19, 2008
8:40 PM
|
Brian,
Play harder? What does that mean?
Still not impressed.
Nick
|
nicksiders
2708 posts
Apr 19, 2008
9:09 PM
|
Cliff,
I have a friend close by. His name is Jerry Holder and every year he says his birds aren't doing too well and every year he kicks a lot of peoples butt in competition. Jerry is a modest man and he finds it difficult to brag about his birds because that is just not him.
I am not saying that my birds will kick most peoples butt right now, but there was a time that they would and I am sure I will get there again. BUT, I will never brag about them because that ain't me. I do a little of that "woe is me" stuff with my birds because on a given day they aren't good.
For the sake of discussion I will ask questions that I already know the answer to just to get a discussion going and sometimes use a made up condition or performance trait of my birds so people, especially the newer ones feel better about thier own plight with thier birds....so as not to feel alone with a problem.
It is apparent that you are not a Jerry Holder nor are you a Nick Siders.
It is only performance in his loft and my loft as well. In your loft you like to dabble in a little bit of color, but you deny it. I have never been able to understand why you do deny it; there are many, many roller breeders who do dabble in a little color and most of them will own up to it, freely.....but not you. So what is up with that?
You are a mean one, Mr. Grench(sp?)Hmmmm
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 9:09 PM
|
Ty Coleman
216 posts
Apr 20, 2008
3:20 AM
|
Nick, theres alot of stuff that i cant speak on because of not knowing about,but this i know, every bird in Cliffs loft is a Birmingham no birds to introduce color.sorry but ive been in his loft, there not even a modifier on his yard anywere and i didnt see any graves where any were burried lol
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
|
Ty Coleman
217 posts
Apr 20, 2008
3:36 AM
|
Tony, i love your analogy's poked the cat. lmao
Nick, not asking you to be like anyone else but go back and read Brians post there respectful and he made his point,try and learn.I cant speak for all breeders but as for me i dont expect you to like or agree with me or my birds just to have respect for both regardles.I have opinions on strains that ive bought in the past but i dont degrade them i just say they didnt fit in my loft and no one got there feathers ruffled.
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
|
Scott
368 posts
Apr 20, 2008
4:29 AM
|
Some guys took (or take) Birmingham Rollers and crossed them with other breeds as genetic experments for color.
Then they took the crosses and kept crossing back into the Birmingham Roller to retain the color or factor,that is the simple facts.
Nick isn't wrong by any means by calling them mongrel, he is just rubbing it in for some reason.
The true Birmingham can be inbreed hard and not have other breeds showing,that is the difference between a set breed and one that isn't.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2008 4:30 AM
|
Velo99
1667 posts
Apr 20, 2008
6:51 AM
|
Nick is the guy you call Saturday at midnight to watch your back when the craps game is going south.
----------
V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
|
Alohabirds
143 posts
Apr 20, 2008
11:50 AM
|
"The true Birmingham can be inbreed hard and not have other breeds showing,that is the difference between a set breed and one that isn't.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott "
From a post on:
20-Nov-2007
12:07 AM
"Where i am from we have a family called Ollie Harris if we inbreed them for stock they sometimes throw a crest.
Alot of the guys stock the crest immediatly i have seen some that they have flown and they sure do roll.
Some thing of interest: in the 70's they imported Ollie Harris cocks one with muffs and the other without. The cocks went to different fanciers the one family is renowed for his muffs ( red check cock ) and the cock without is the family that throws the crest. ( Silver ink spot cock )."
So why are crested and muffed birds showing up in England, out of a very respected fanciers line of birds, where the "Birmingham Roller" originated?
Maybe they're just rollers and not "Birmingham Rollers"?
----------
Aloha, Dexter
|
Phantom1
199 posts
Apr 20, 2008
1:11 PM
|
Scott wrote: "Some guys took (or take) Birmingham Rollers and crossed them with other breeds as genetic experments for color.
Then they took the crosses and kept crossing back into the Birmingham Roller to retain the color or factor,that is the simple facts."
Very well said, to the point, and valid all across the board.
What each person has to do now is filter out the birds that are actively under "re" development and those that have been "re" established. I'm not trying to suggest that a run of the mill Barless Blue is "re-established". Nor would I suggest that a Blue-Check that carries Dilute, Pencil, Barless, and Brown is a Birmingham Roller. However, you've gotta take someone's work and effort into consideration when passing judgement. Just because someone has a Colored Roller, doesn't necessarily mean that they sought out a true, REAL DEAL, Birmingham Roller to start crossing with a Pheasant Pigeon. The birds I have roll, and were the colors that they are when I got them. Who knows...maybe the guys I got them from got them from someone else and they were the color when they got them. Go back 5 or 6 breeders and 20+ years, and you'll probably find a cross.
If this is about a witch hunt to damn those crossing for color, then I think it's safe to say you can do it elsewhere. Every single person I've ever read posts from here and abroad for that matter, focus on performance first. If the birds they started with were Colored Rollers, and they breed for performance, that in no way endangers the Birmingham Roller as a breed. It only gives the Colored Roller Breeder a performance standard to breed towards.
My two cents.
Eric
|
nicksiders
2710 posts
Apr 20, 2008
1:25 PM
|
Becareful, I think Eric is BAITING us(LOL)
|
Phantom1
200 posts
Apr 20, 2008
2:46 PM
|
Very imformitave reply Nick. Thank you for your participation.
|
Electric-man
1466 posts
Apr 20, 2008
2:55 PM
|
Posting Policy:
Not allowed:
• Endless arguing or relentless questioning when question has been adequately addressed in another post. Lack of respect for the forum, its members, its objectives. Senseless rhymes and word play. Posts seeking other forum members to respond to taunts.
It takes at least two to have an arguement!
----------
Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2008 2:58 PM
|
Scott
369 posts
Apr 20, 2008
4:10 PM
|
(So why are crested and muffed birds showing up in England, out of a very respected fanciers line of birds, where the "Birmingham Roller" originated?)
Muffs have always been in the breed, crests are not, but some families do throw "peaks", shave the feathers off and they still look like Birmingham Rollers, many of the ones posted here with crests resemble no breed what so-ever with or without a crest and are obvious crosses.
The same holds true with many of the color birds, paint them Blue Check and they still are not recononizable as Birminghams.
there are exceptions to this ,one is the Andys for example when bred in the right hands as they were simple genes to work with, which means that they didn't have to keep going back to the crosses to keep it.
The simple fact is anything that is bred for that isn't performance related it is near impossible to establish a good sound stud, the breed is just to complicated, you can make a duck roll, but for it to handle the roll mentally and pysicaly is the hard part.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2008 5:01 PM
|
Alohabirds
145 posts
Apr 20, 2008
9:10 PM
|
Aloha Scott,
Thanks for the response and for clarifying the muff/crests appearing in the birds.
Someone had posted before that if the bird had muffs and/or crests that it had to be crossed with something else, I want to thank you again for calrifying that for me.
Also, congratulations again for winning your regions qualifier. Good luck in the finals..
----------
Aloha, Dexter
|
MILO
915 posts
Apr 20, 2008
9:28 PM
|
This is SO played out.
It is important however for the new guys to know the basics. I think it is important for them to know what goes on in the fancy, especially when it comes to shopping for their first family. Unfortunately arguments like this only confuse them.
As far as this particular thread goes, ya, Nick ruffles feathers all the time. I think that's just his style. How he comes up with his thread topics sometimes leaves me scratching my head.
One thing that Nick, and a lot of hard line pursits need to understand is that sure, they need to be on the look-out for breed-crossers, AKA mongrelizers, but when they become vocal, their words and intentions can become misinterpreted. I try to put myself in the other guys shoes before I fire off a post that may be indirectly hurtful, although I am sure I have done it anyway...lol
Don't mean to single out anyone but I will use Cliff as an example. Forgive me Cliff if this makes you feel that way. So, he has color mods in his birds. I don't think he put them there. He is obviously passionate about his birds, and is big on performance. Many, many years ago, someone brought in "something" to add some flavor. (Hopefully it wan't Cliff) LOL Many years later, Cliffs birds still roll, and he is very proud of them.
Enter Nick: He makes a comment about a modifier, and in the same breath uses the word mongrel. Cliff reads the post. Do you think Cliff gets irritated? Ya. I think so. So what's he supposed to do now, cull his birds because of a project that took place in 1972? Seriously. He has to move forward. Is he going to lean on the side of the color breeder? Of course. That's just where he finds himself in his path with his birds. The color in his birds have never been a factor for him, so why is he going to worry about it now? That's why some comments will get under his skin.
So over time Cliffs hot buttons become color-based. You can see patterns in threads like this...Same guys causing trouble, and the same guys getting pissed.
I live a quiet roller life. I couldn't care less what another man does with his birds. I think my neighbor is mad cause I've never looked over his fence. That's just my style. The only time I come out of my shell is when I see a post that is totally off base, or I can offer some advice for a new guy. Anything else is a waste of time, and frankly, can be done either by e-mail or in the chatrooms. When I see a thread like this I have to think, "Man, somebody is bored off their ass."
c
|
PR_rollers
918 posts
Apr 20, 2008
9:59 PM
|
I like that one Milo.reminds me of me lol...your neighbor is mad because you don't look over his fence.. but you right about the newbie reading these post that shouldn't be started
because they have many old post here with the same thing .I'm talking about 2004.but we have to remember they are alot of new guys here and reading the way we talk about other ppl birds colors and what not,,only makes them read but not post or run away,because some of these post are directly calling ppl names .putting them down because it offended them of a word you use.. we got to get it together guys .lets peace out.there is enough headache in the world without this bulls..t...
----------
Ralph....
|
nicksiders
2715 posts
Apr 20, 2008
11:08 PM
|
Milo,
I enjoyed the read. I use to be like you; I had a shit job that worked me to death with long hours and the such and I did not have time to chit-chat with anyone, especially about my pigeons or thiers and I didn't want to either. Stayed in my backyard and didn't come out until I went to work. When I began to shutdown my working life I began to look around and found this site; joined the NBRC; and started competing just last year. I read every chance I got about these birds and only allowed Bob Hord into my pigeon life.................now, I am going to go back to my backyard....I just can't stand the heat(LOL)
Nick
|
MILO
916 posts
Apr 21, 2008
1:02 AM
|
Hi Nick.
In this hobby the best lessons are learned in your own yard. I think of this forum, and others like it as a place to share those lessons learned. So it's ok to be in the yard...LOL
c
|
Ty Coleman
219 posts
Apr 21, 2008
4:14 AM
|
Great post Milo and Ralph. A lott of class and respect.
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2373 posts
Apr 21, 2008
5:12 AM
|
Hey Ralph, I am wondering about posts wherein people were called names? Where are these at because I would like to edit those comments. Thanks!
For those who have been here since the inception of RPDC, I think you will see a gradual improvement in the tone of the discussions regarding the more controversial topics.
In the beginning, posting almost anything about roller pigeons was allowed, and there WAS allot of animosity expressed back and forth regarding the color issue.
Over time, however, enough information has been published to clearly express both sides of the issue. When a newbie comes into the roller and does research and reading on this site, he will understand that there are 2 legitimate and well thought out opinions and views on this topic.
At least now the newbie will have enough information available to make the best choice for himself. One way or another, he is now responsible for the decisions he makes, he can't say he did not know...that no one told him one way or the other.
Rather than stifle free-flowing discussion, from what I understand, compared to a site or two, RPDC allows more and even encourages intellectual freedom on the site to express differing views on hot roller topics.
This certainly helps give RPDC the "flavor and tempo" that it has, driven of course by the site members.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
nicksiders
2716 posts
Apr 21, 2008
8:00 AM
|
Tony,
There are people that feel "color breeder" is name calling. The word "mongrel" and "cross breed" fits in that catagory, too. "Bastardizing" qualifies too, I believe.....I am rethinking what I say and how I say it to avoid falling into that pit of name calling.
"When we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change" At 64 years old I find myself changing how I look at things in hopes the things I am looking at change.......? Pretty goofy sounding, ain't it?
Does that mean; if I change the way I look at those few individuals I don't care for, they will change? OR, is it me who changes?
I ain't been drinking or smoking anything; I'm really this stupid.
Nick
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2375 posts
Apr 21, 2008
8:23 AM
|
Hey Nick, I see what you mean, I don't think it is so much the words themselves but how they are used in the conversation.
If the discussion can move PAST the invective and animosity from both sides (which I think we are on the cusp of) then actual useful discussion can take place as far how to breed better rollers.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Ty Coleman
220 posts
Apr 21, 2008
8:49 AM
|
Guys, like i said i respect everyones opinion,i personly take offense to the word mongrel,i wouldnt be much on being called a cross breeder either, i dont see harm in being called a color breeder although i dont feel that fits my breeding program either, im a performance breeder the same as everyone else, my birds just happen to carry color genes. I havnt seen anyone pushing rollers of color as being better but it has been proven that they are just as good.The debate over where they are Birminghams or just rollers will never die, there are good points being made on both sides of the fence,this will be a debate till the end of time but lets not tear the hobby apart being direspectful while debating this. I know where Nick and Scott stand and they know i stand and ive said it before we are going to half to agree to disagree, we can debate in a respectfull way,and hopefully we can.As Tony stated if we could move past this it would be great.Im new as you know and i feel that there could be a lot of knowledge learned from you guys but with comments made in the past about "breed you alot of them and watch them fall apart" shows ignorance to me and i feel if i had a question about kitting,breeding,or roll quality the first response would be demeaning about color and no real help on the actual question, but maybee some folks would rather "poke the cat" im still lmao about that one.
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2008 9:03 AM
|
dmitch
45 posts
Apr 21, 2008
9:45 AM
|
Man you guys got me doing background checks and DNA ! Got to know what the h in these brid. lol
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2008 9:49 AM
|
nicksiders
2717 posts
Apr 21, 2008
10:26 AM
|
Hey Dwayne,
I am driving down to Texas this Saturday for the Texas Performing Roller Association BBQ and lawn show. Do you want to ride along? From where you live it would be about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
Let me know.
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2008 10:27 AM
|
maxspin
215 posts
Apr 21, 2008
10:28 AM
|
Ty,
I try to stay out of these, but you have just used the classic sales line.
"I haven't seen anyone pushing rollers of color as being better but it has been proven that they are just as good."
There are a several breeders that have taken a family with color modifiers that are proving to be just as good. These are the performance breeders. I would not mind having birds from these guys.
There are also several breeders that are advertising (Toy Stencil) (Brown Barless) (Cream Bar) etc. These breeders can not get there by simply picking on performance. These are color breeders. These are the guys that give color breeders a bad name, because they use the line above. I would not want these birds.
This discussion always get a lot of play because the Birmingham Roller is first and foremost a performance breed. The breed has been down this road before with the "dual purpose rollers". Breeding for something other than performance didn't work then, and it won't work now. I don't care if the other is color, pedigree, show results or something else. The only thing that matters is the performance.
Keith Maxwell
|
millsy55
37 posts
Apr 21, 2008
11:17 AM
|
who cares as long as they roll a roller is a roller if they roll straight who cares what there history is all breeds have been crossed sometine in thier history the point of flying is to see a kit of good birds in the sky wotever thier colour shape or size
|
dmitch
46 posts
Apr 21, 2008
11:47 AM
|
Thanks Mr Nick but have to work the weekend.OK if you all are happy with your birds and you know it clap your hands because they are yours.
|
Ty Coleman
221 posts
Apr 21, 2008
4:58 PM
|
Keith, i cant speak for all color breeders or color of birds i dont have brown barless or toy stencil i do have a cream bar-o6 hen and ive stocked her,she's blowin smoke at 40 foot,thought id ad that.Keith i wasnt trying out a sales pitch lol.I personaly dont care what color it is but if it dont roll it must go.
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
|
Edgar
191 posts
Apr 21, 2008
5:12 PM
|
Alot of bULL$*@$ talk guys just move on.edgar.
|
Scott
375 posts
Apr 21, 2008
5:24 PM
|
Ty , a Cream Bar isn't a color bird , the name color bird originated from what they call "rare" color, which is just a nice name for mongrel as other breeds were crossed in on the Birmingham for the so called "rare" color.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
flo
78 posts
Apr 21, 2008
5:54 PM
|
This site has been far the greatest roller pigeon site I have been a part of and it is great thanks to all of you guys with so many years of experiences in this hobby and especially to Tony for not allowing this site to be one sided opinion. Being a newbie myself, this is a site that I know if I strongly believe of something and read a post where someone else disagrees, there will be at the least one person who feels the same way I do. I feel confident coming to this site asking away because more than likely, I will get a positive but very knowledgeable response. then there are those debates which doesn't make this site any boring at all. Great site...
flo
www.blacked-out-loft.webs.com
|
Ballrollers
1143 posts
Apr 21, 2008
6:47 PM
|
Welcome to the sport and to the site, flo. There is really much to be learned, here. One thing for sure...you can count on getting both sides of the story on any issue! LOL!
Scott,
Now wait just a minute! I looked at that Genetic tape made by James Turner and all I saw was one ecellent performance roller being bred to a great looking roller carrying a color modifier. I saw nothing but rollers all the way through the tape. So help me WHPensom!
Cliff
|
Electric-man
1474 posts
Apr 21, 2008
7:12 PM
|
Good attitude flo! Even though your a newbie, your coming in here with an open mind, thats good! You will do well here! This is a great place to learn! Feel free to ask any question that you need to! Spend some time reading old post and some time in the reading room! Its all good man!
----------
Val
"Site Moderator"
|
Ballrollers
1144 posts
Apr 21, 2008
7:13 PM
|
Milo,
You made some important distinctions that will, hopefully, clarify this issue and provide some insight into the source of some of the personal passion that is arroused when somebody chooses to speak to the issue in a derogatory way. It is, perhaps, most irritating to hear a guy claim to know exactly what happens in my breeding loft and my kitboxes; the basis for the selection of my pairings, my kit birds, and how they perform......better than I.....and all by the color of the feathers, or by the family of birds they represent. Hopefully, others can appreciate the absolute ignorance of any such supposition on the part of any roller man, regardless of the family of rollers being discussed.
Cliff
|
Scott
377 posts
Apr 21, 2008
7:22 PM
|
(Scott,
Now wait just a minute! I looked at that Genetic tape made by James Turner and all I saw was one ecellent performance roller being bred to a great looking roller carrying a color modifier. I saw nothing but rollers all the way through the tape. So help me WHPensom!
Cliff )
Cliff, I didn't say anything about that tape on this thread , but since you brought is up , you saw a different tape than I have here or it has since beed edited to hide the truth or not put it so in the face of whoever is watching it.
But you and I both know that what ever tape you are looking at that the one with the so called "color modifier" is a to the bone mongral from crossbreeding and something else is being down bred to it for the color.
You aren't trying to suggest that he didn't crossbreed as did and do many others for color breeding are you ?
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2008 9:11 PM
|
nicksiders
2720 posts
Apr 21, 2008
7:27 PM
|
Now, that is the Scott Campbell I know and love(LOL)
|
Scott
380 posts
Apr 21, 2008
9:35 PM
|
Nick, the thing is that he knows exactly what I'm talking about, the crossbreeding was never a secret or hid ,it had always been up front as side projects and nothing more.
These days some are trying to sweep it under the rug , God forbid that the new flyers make thier own choices.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2008 9:52 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2378 posts
Apr 21, 2008
9:51 PM
|
Hey Scott, interesting...so its not that you are against a man outcrossing, but you feel he should at least be aware of what he is up against and that wanting to do it is allot easier proposition than actually doing it.
I may be putting words into your mouth, but couldn't this be said?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Scott
381 posts
Apr 21, 2008
10:05 PM
|
Tony, I could care less what anyone does, color breeding is a hobby all it's own , nothing more and nothing less.
But when it comes to performance it will take you no where at all , that is a given, and that holds true with mogrels or pure breds.
The crossing still goes on heavily, and I have seen f-1s or f-2s crosses from guys that claimed they don't cross, maybe they didn't breed them but they were f-1 or f-2 all the same.
There was a crest posted a while back that was very close to the cross.
It just seems that there used to be honesty with it where now there isn't , it is hard enough for new guys to get good birds as it is without being taken in with these color breeders pedding color birds.
Other than the Andys color birds can't stand on thier own, that is the simple truth.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
pigeonflipper
22 posts
Apr 21, 2008
10:43 PM
|
well all i can say is this whole post gave me a good laugh.you all need to go get a coffe or a beer and go and enjoy your birds,i am flying some f1 oriental x birminghams and the hybrid vigour is fantastic,even better than the pure rollers i have,i can still fry them with the local club if i wish,no questions asked.and as for those tasmanian terriers that was mentioned i am from tassie and have never heard of them,and it is a very small place making up only .9% of the total australian land mass,there is no such recognised breed of dog in australia,and nick i think the word you were looking for was mundane but i am not sure why,as it means worldly and comes from the latin word mundus or world,,,mondaine is a pigeon breed,,,,
----------
FLY HIGH=ROLL DEEP
|
smoke747
832 posts
Apr 21, 2008
11:39 PM
|
mongrel- an offspring of parents of different breeds.
The point is once you cross another type of pigeon with a Birmingham, it can and should not be called a Birmingham. It could be called a roller still but not Birmingham roller.This does not mean the birds are of lesser value because there is a guy named John Jones who has done very well with color birds, in the WC and FF.
SMOKE747
Keith London
ICRC
|
nicksiders
2723 posts
Apr 22, 2008
12:41 AM
|
Pigeonflipper,
Considered to be among the smallest of the working terrier breeds, the Australian terrier is also the national terrier of Australia. Research suggests that ancestors of the breed originated in Tasmania as a result of crosses with breeds hailing from Europe, and that the Australian terrier shares many traits of the silky terrier. The Tasmanian-born terrier featured a rough coat could control livestock. It served as not only a companion and watch dog, but also a dog that was able to kill snakes and vermin. It is said that ancestors of other terriers, such as the Dandie Dinmont, the Skye, the Scotch, the Manchester, and the Yorkshire terrier were crossed with the Tasmanian dog, which resulted in an impressive looking dog that was also quite useful. According to sources, the first Australian terrier was presented sometime in the mid- to late 1800s, most likely in Melbourne, and it featured a "broken" coat of "blackish blue sheen." ..... Find out more about this dog breed.
Nick
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1194 posts
Apr 22, 2008
3:48 AM
|
Scott.Now you know for a fact that the Indigo's roll just as good as the Andalusian's do.David
|
Ty Coleman
223 posts
Apr 22, 2008
5:03 AM
|
Scott , im glad you always put just my opinion because your simple truth you spoke about is the furthest from the simple truth.. Come back to this Century were way past wether a color bird can spin.It'll be ok to admit it Scott it want hurt that bad!
----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
|