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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Mongrel
Mongrel
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Ty Coleman
234 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:07 PM
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Kel i'm going to have to stick with scolded my ego couldnt handle being spanked lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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luis
826 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:08 PM
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Man,i think even the dead horses spirit is hurting from this beating!LOL.
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Santandercol
2359 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:16 PM
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NICK!!!We're gonna have to charge you more for this one>I mean,geez!Lookit all the ink we've used here.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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nicksiders
2731 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:18 PM
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Cliff,
Now, I have to lay awake all night contemplating "purist agenda". Damn it!(LOL).
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 9:19 PM
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nicksiders
2732 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:42 PM
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Hey Russ,
I will be using the WC Fly-off rules plus my life's experiances. A lot of things are involved in the quality judgement from lifes experiences; some objective and some subjective. It is a tough thing to do and very few want to tackle it (the sane people, anyway). I used to do it for local clubs and stopped for awhile (decades) because I simply didn't have much time and I moved away often.....who knew me anyway? I stood around in the background, quietly.
Nick
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birdman
536 posts
Apr 22, 2008
10:01 PM
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Thanks Nick, and good luck with the judging!
By the way, I was looking into the Aussie Terriers too but couldn't find a local breeder. I ended up getting 'The Dog With The Human Brain', aka the Schnauzer.
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Velo99
1670 posts
Apr 23, 2008
5:29 AM
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Bird,
The smartest dogs are heelers. Mine is 4 now and I just talk to her like she was a kid. She usually gets the meaning. When we walk I dont even have to say anything to her. She is glued to my heel. She knows the difference between the old birds and squeaks when she chases them up off the ground.Knows the family members by name. Does light delivery work around the house.
She even has a guilty conscience. If she has dug a hole or chewed on something offlimits she cowers.Then I have to go look and find what she has gotten into. she comes over and we have a "discussion" and all is well and all will be well. Like having a 4 year old that stays in the yard.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Scott
393 posts
Apr 23, 2008
6:07 AM
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Hey you guys are starting to get a little off track here LOL LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Santandercol
2363 posts
Apr 23, 2008
6:40 AM
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Russ,
When we were looking there was only one breeder in western Canada.Had to go to Wash. state to find a bitch.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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MILO
918 posts
Apr 23, 2008
8:54 AM
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Cliff.
This last post is interesting I guess. I would like to just say that if you are flying out birds that already have rare factors in them, well, nothing you can really do about it. You can see it as a bonus, or you can see it as a flaw. Depends on your "Camp". As I mentioned before, your attitudes will really hinge on whats already in your birds genetically speaking. As far am I'm concerned color talk is such a non factor that it actually bores me. That's not why I do this.
Having read this passionate post of yours, I have to ask you something. Are you saying that color breeding is more challenging than exclusively breeding for rolling ability? Just wondering.
However complex it may be to be able to breed and identify rare colors in "birds" it still, at least in my mind, is not as complex as breeding good rollers. Also, is not my cup of tea as a performance breeder. I don't think I'm out of line here. Breeding birds for color is time consuming yes, but not difficult. You just make them like cookies. Breed, and observe them after a moult? Rollers take years to develop, if they survive. Then if they survive, we have to guess at the pairings. It's not as accurate as breeding and identifying color. Now that is an exact science. Still after all these years, a lot of our assumptions and ideas on roll are based in "voodoo-like" observations. By this I mean we don't know why or what makes the rolling qualities happen, we just try to harness it by trial and error. I mean really, we are talking about apples and fire engines here.
To breed rollers based on color first, AND then have a loft full of battle tested (in the air)performers, well my friend, that's just not hard, that is down right impossible. Anyone that says they can do both, is just full of crap. Remember Cliff, having a superstar color bird pop up in a family where the factors already exist is different than intentionally breeding for them. I hope we are on the same page.
c
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Ballrollers
1154 posts
Apr 23, 2008
9:57 AM
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Milo
I can't answer that question because I don't try to breed for any particular color or factor. I know there is a whole other world of men who don't breed for performance but do breed for colors and then there are a few men who breed performance rollers and have the knowledge to identify colors and factors and know how to manipulate (pair up) birds to obtain a certain color or factor.
My opinion: For me, performance is the only " factor" I breed for and that is no easy job, as you said. But from what I have heard, breeding for a specific color or pattern that is "picture perfect" and without flaws , is no easy task either.
You might find a more educated opinion from men who do show birds and breed for a certain color factor. I only know that I do not breed for colors to the point I have a hard time just identifying some of the factors present in my birds. Then you have the problem with the terms used to describe the common genetic factors. What color was the Clay hen? What color is clay? We have dunn for an ash red and we have dunn for a dilute blue. The terms we use within the fancy is more cause for un necessary confusion.
My point has to do with the notion that a color bird's factors always jump off the perch at you; and the assumption by someof these guys that do not know anything about this family, that they "didn't see any color birds" in somebody's loft. Many of these factors are not easily recognizable to the untrained eye. The names of some of these factors sound so exotic, you jump to the conclusion that it will knock your socks off and then you see it , and it is really a let down. It often looks nothing like you thought it would.
As hard as it is to raise a good kit, some guys like the additional challenge breeding for colors, as well, but most just try for straight clean spinners regardless of the paint job.
Brian (BMC) may wish to address you statement about it being cookie cutter easy.
We have many families of good rollers to chose from, the men who developed those families gave us the building blocks to move forward on.
All in all Milo, we are more in agreement than not.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2008 9:58 AM
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Ballrollers
1155 posts
Apr 23, 2008
1:27 PM
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Joe Urbon,
Now that is a great way of looking at things. I will support that idea and encourage others to consider your thoughts. We all have more things in common than things that we disagree about. The differences are unique and personal but the commonality is what should be worthy of discussion too. I also want to commend you on your understanding of this issue in your post, and it bears repeating for the sake of clarity:
"I feel that there are actually 4 sides to this discussion. Those that breed stricktly for the purety of the BR, Those that like to make their BR's pretty ( by means of crossing ) and those that like the pretty BRs but achieved them after the crossing and now breed strictly for performance ) and lastly, those that just don't care.
All 4 have a common bond being the love for the bird we just express it in other ways.....I feel more injustice is done in this Hobby from the Feather merchants that peddle their culls at the swap meets to unsuspecting new breeders which are mostly young kids that we need to continue this great hobby. The kids buy these culls and then get discouraged because they dont do anything so they give up on the hobby. JMHO though. Joe"
Each of the four philosophies that you describe, have their pitfalls for the fancier. And we must also remember, there are Feather Merchants in all four categories.
Good post.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2008 1:31 PM
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Ballrollers
1156 posts
Apr 24, 2008
1:26 PM
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Scott
I think it is your position, that it is a major NO NO, to cross another breed of pigeon onto a Birmingham Roller pigeon. Correct? If so, I agree.
If it is your position that pairing up a blue ck self with a Dom Opal (BOTH 20 ft "H" type, high velocity spinners) is mongrelizing the breed, I strongly disagree. Both birds have earned the title Birmingham roller, both birds meet the performance definition of a Birmingham Roller.
It is your opinion that any bird, regardless of performance, that is showing a rare color is NOT a Birmingham roller. Correct? Following up my discusssion above, what about birds that don't show a rare color or one that you can't identify as a rare colored bird? What then? Does it automatically become a Birmingham Roller just because you can't properly identify the factors or color modifiers carried? Or if it is a blue check self out of an Indgo check and a black do you now grant it a reprieve from being a "mongrel". Another example: A 30 foot , high "H" type medium velocity red checker (really an indigo but you can't tell it).
If you can't tell by visual inspection; if you can't tell by performance; what would you call it?
Next Question: Let's say either you agree with me or I agree with you.... Does it change anything? Is anyone anywhere going to change their opinions about Birmingham rollers? Will it improve performance? Is anyone out there going to stop breeding the way they have been for a hundred years.....which, for most, means if they see an awesome roller in the air and their roller buddy gives it to them, they will outcross it to their family of rollers, not knowing about hidden colors and factors....or not caring...
Will it make a difference to the NBRC or the WC?
If, as you have stated , you really believe that these color birds will cull themselves right out of the performance lofts, or be eliminated because "the basic colors keep coming to the surface in the birds that perform", as you have said in the past. How come they are such a problem for you, anyway? They all will be gone soon, right? I agree the controversy is a great topic of discussion but that is about it.
As Far as genetics is concerned, I use it as a tool in my overall understanding of inheritance. I think every flyer should be able to use the proper genetic terminology to define the colors and patterns within his loft. Example Mealie,Meeley Mealy,what the Hell is that? The color of oatmeal? It is an ash red bar. OK. Fine. Then what is a blue bar, A blue mealy? Nope, no such term......and on and on and on. I had a guy tell me to look at his mouse gray bird. I told him it was an ash red bird with spread. He said , Really? We don't have to learn all the factors..... but the basic ones in your loft?? YES!
Cliff
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nicksiders
2737 posts
Apr 24, 2008
6:11 PM
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Birmingham Roller is the name of a specific breed.
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Scott
400 posts
Apr 24, 2008
6:19 PM
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Cliff , you know my position, I would never allow a bird with a polluted gene pool onto the property no matter how well they roll, it is like a turd in the punch bowl just waiting to pop up to the surface,sure you can keep pouring punch into the bowl but that turd is still there.
Same as I wouldn't allow a bird into stock loaded with faults such as non kitting,bumping, early landing,not coming out of the roll correctly ect ect. no matter how well they rolled , just a different type of turd floating around in the punch bowl is all.
Honestly Cliff out of all of the judging and traveling I have accross the country I have seen very few lofts with those type of birds, it is really a non issue and the breed is still very much intact in most parts of the country.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 6:39 AM
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Electric-man
1485 posts
Apr 24, 2008
8:10 PM
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Turd in a punchbowl!
Now theres a mental image that I could have done without! LOL
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Scott
402 posts
Apr 24, 2008
9:25 PM
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PS I could care less about proper genetic terms, it has so value what so ever to me.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
271 posts
Apr 25, 2008
11:29 AM
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I like the turd in the punch bowl analogue, it tell it like it is. Viva La Turd lol.
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Ballrollers
1157 posts
Apr 25, 2008
11:56 AM
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Nick
And how is that specific breed defined, in your opinion? How is it identified? Is it based on a family? A pedigree? A type of feathering? A color? A body type? A shape? A type of performance? A lack of certain types of performance? Can we tell by looking at the bird on the perch? In the hand? In the air? I'm interested to know whether you have given this issue any real practical thought as to how we can apply it to the hobby today, or whether it is more of some idealistic notion of the way you wish things were. Think carefully on it. There may be a test afterwards!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 12:31 PM
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Ballrollers
1158 posts
Apr 25, 2008
12:04 PM
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Scott,
"Honestly Cliff out of all of the judging and traveling I have accross the country I have seen very few lofts with those type of birds, it is really a non issue and the breed is still very much intact in most parts of the country."
"PS I could care less about proper genetic terms, it has so value what so ever to me."
Ok, I got it. Color birds AND genetic term are non issues as far as you are concerned. Thank you very much for that perspective. I think we may be getting somewhere here. But when one feels that genetics has no value, of course, then, he will be unable to identify these types of birds in the lofts accross the country. That is probably a good thing for the flyer when you're judging! LOL! But it certanily explains why you don't see it....
And we certainly agree on one thing....."I wouldn't allow a bird into stock loaded with faults such as non kitting, bumping, early landing,not coming out of the roll correctly etc. etc. no matter how well they rolled , just a different type of turd floating around in the punch bowl is all."
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 12:41 PM
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Scott
413 posts
Apr 26, 2008
3:58 PM
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(But when one feels that genetics has no value, of course, then, he will be unable to identify these types of birds in the lofts accross the country. That is probably a good thing for the flyer when you're judging! LOL! But it certanily explains why you don't see it....)
Cliff,color gentics has no value what so ever when it comes to this breed other than knowing what you "can't" get out of particular pairs and the only thing that will move you forward is a little understanding of the breed,not color genetics.
Lets be Frank, generaly when we are talking genetics we are talking about color breeding and nothing more and for the most part that means mongrels ,mongrels or not color breeding puts turds in your punch bowel.
Cliff I don't see it because it isn't there, most that I know take the breed too serious and it certainly it isn't the type of turd most want floating around in thier punch bowl that is for sure.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2008 11:16 PM
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Dave Szab
147 posts
Apr 26, 2008
5:34 PM
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Hey Scott,
Well there's your problem. You've got a punch "bowel"...no wonder you've got turds in it. Since I have a punch "bowl", I shouldn't have to worry about turds in it. To be safe though, if I ever have you at one of my parties I will not put out my punch "bowl". I don't want you to get any ideas about putting a turd in it! LOL.
Dave
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Velo99
1671 posts
Apr 27, 2008
8:31 AM
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Nick said
"I don't buy it. All breeds have had a little bit of dubious breeding in thier back ground. But, there comes a point in its history that it is called what it has become. From that point it is up to us as breeders to protect the integrety for which it is named. The intentional and continual mixing of other breeds into it should be considered taboo."
Now these excerpts from the NBRC By laws
Article II --- Objectives
Section 1
The objectives of the NBRC will be as follows
The cultivation of the true Birmingham Roller pigeon as a performing breed.
To stimulate interest and maintain competition in the flying of these pigeons.
To enhance education about the Birmingham Roller and fellowship among roller fanciers through various means, including the publishing of periodic bulletins. The name of the official voice of the NBRC will be known as the "NBRC Bulletin."
Article III --- Membership and Dues
Section 1
Any person who breeds Birmingham Rollers is eligible for membership by paying the prescribed yearly dues and agreeing to comply with the rules, regulations, and Constitution and By-laws of the club.
Seems there are some policing issues that are not being dealt with.
The NBRC promotes the true Birmingham roller.
Breeders of Birmingham rollers.
Pretty simple and straightforward til one realizes there are no qualifiers in place to check the validity of the birds entered.
How do we know what we are competing against hasnt been crossed to give it a performance advantage? How can the NBRC continue to operate as its namesake with no validation process? Seems to me most breed clubs have a policy in place to ensure that its breed is pure.
All I see being promoted is the Fall Fly and the convention. Which interestingly enough is also a meeting for club business.
Article VIII --- Meetings
Section 1
The club shall hold at least one annual meeting a year. This meeting shall be held at the yearly NBRC convention. The convention shall be rotated on a yearly basis among the four time zones in the continental United States in the following order: (1) Eastern, (2) Central, (3) Mountain, and (4) Pacific.
Section 2
Any meeting sanctioned by a majority of the Executive Committee of the club and attended by 50 members in good standing shall constitute a quorum.
Section 3
Any business matters discussed at a national meeting must get approval from a majority of the Executive Committee before action can be taken.
Whats the purpose of having a quorum when the vote has been taken from the membership and given to the EC ?
The EC covered itself on section 3 when they discovered thier mistake. Seems they are afraid their commitee might be voted out at a convention,so they sewed it up airtight.
In my opinion the club is simply a self serving entity which rules thier own little world without due consideration for the breed which they claim to promote without any policies in place to protect the integrity of the breed using your money and hard work without giving any consideration to the membership.
The only thing I see on the EC reports is "making change" I have 5 pennies can I get a nickel?
If I have the energy later I`ll report on the complicity in keeping Juan Navarro as the president and letting the club get a black eye during Operation High Roller.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 8:40 AM
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MILO
920 posts
Apr 27, 2008
9:31 AM
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Interesting points Kenny, but I don't see anything too crazy or eye-opening here.
The NBRC promotes the true Birmingham roller.
Breeders of Birmingham rollers.
"Pretty simple and straightforward til one realizes there are no qualifiers in place to check the validity of the birds entered. How do we know what we are competing against hasnt been crossed to give it a performance advantage?"
This is a non-factor in my opinion. Crossing something into birds in competition is a disadvantage. I would be pleased to compete against someone crossing. LOL
"How can the NBRC continue to operate as its namesake with no validation process? Seems to me most breed clubs have a policy in place to ensure that its breed is pure."
You are absolutely right here though. How can they operate this way you ask? Because they can. The NBRC is not the best game in town, it is simply the only game in town. Do keep this in mind however...There are so few people raising rollers, all a standard would do is isolate more people. There would be like 25 guys in the club...LOL
"All I see being promoted is the Fall Fly and the convention. Which interestingly enough is also a meeting for club business."
Yes it is. I think it is a large task to keep the boat afloat...So unless there are more people actively looking to get involved, then the membership should be happy with the little they get. I happen to think it is too little. I have not renewed my membership this year. I don't need a bulletin. I stopped reading them years ago. I don't buy NBRC bands either. My program has been literally decimated by my forcing my training for the big flies in peak BOP months. Makes no sense. If I want to get my rocks off in competition, I will have to do it locally, and as many of you know, I am rather isolated. The NBRC and it's membership are great people as far as I can tell, but they have cost me a lot of good rollers.
"In my opinion the club is simply a self serving entity which rules thier own little world without due consideration for the breed which they claim to promote without any policies in place to protect the integrity of the breed using your money and hard work without giving any consideration to the membership."
Hmmm. Sounds like a Federal Government gripe speech! Ya Kenny, and I also think gas is expensive right now, and that our money should be spent in the U.S. too...LOL The larger the body, the more difficult it is for change. The only beef I have with the NBRC is it's name. It needs to be changed to the NARC (National American Roller Club) for reasons I think should be obvious. It's almost insulting everytime I read it. Are we hanging on the names of it's founding fathers - Smith, Pensom, Hilton, McCully, Plona? Who cares at this point? A club so rich with tradition seems to be steering into a future without it. It's ok, those of you that think it isn't an established breed, you can all read about it in Monsons book. I am sure it will be eye openeing to say the least.
It is absolutely fascinating how competition and performance are the arguments for anyone who wants to use them for their advantage. At the end of the day, it's about all of you, and where you have taken the breed. Some of you should be proud, and others not. It's almost a curse that the bird has an actual history of it's creation, and that it has a performance standard. Both can be great arguments for the promotion of it, and also for it's eradication.
c
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Ballrollers
1159 posts
Apr 28, 2008
12:44 PM
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Hartman (V99),
You've been watching way too many soap operas, man.....either that or drinking somebody's Kool-aid. I remember a guy in British Guiana, I think it was..."Rev" Jim Jones. He had a huge conspiracy theory about everything.....tried to convince everyone that things were soooooo bad. So they all just dropped out......of life. You're sorta beginning to sound like him! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 12:45 PM
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Ballrollers
1160 posts
Apr 28, 2008
12:51 PM
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Milo
Interesting post. Let me ask you this.
If there are no standards, except the performance standards, why do we continue to have these endless color discussions at all? It seems to me, the NBRC is promoting the Birmingham roller through Pensom's performance definition of its standard....and the National FLY. If the families of "colored" Birmingham Rollers can compete with families of "non-color-added" Birmingham Rollers, then the Performance definition is meeting the needs of most of the flyers.
If, on the other hand, we want a show breed or a show standard... then we need more defined, better-explained descriptions of the birds and the color and shape of their feathers. The NBRC does not cater to the show-bird standard. The NBRC promotes the performance Birmingham Roller.
I have no problem with more than one National Roller pigeon club. Maybe a little competition could move different clubs in different directions. In the minds of a few, it seems they would like to move away from performance standards and now need tighter restrictions for "breed" standards, or tighter rules. The NBRC is more successful in representing the fancy than any other roller club has ever been, and it continues to grow. I think those that are so unhappy with the NBRC should definitely give it a shot....set up their own organization and rules and have their own fly. Go for it guys.
Or maybe to help these situations, we should base competition flys based on color alone. Maybe that would make the inbreeding pedigree guys happy...ya think? We could have a fly only for blue bars with white flights, another for blue bars w/o w/f., one for red bars with w/f............ But then we could encounter dirty dogs trying to slip in those damn indigos on the red bars. So I guess, it would be best to ban all red-based birds altogether and just stick with blue-based birds, one fly for checkers , one fly for bars, one fly for spread blacks. But no yellows, of course....after all they are not really "true" Birmingham rollers either according to these wanna-be "experts".....I guess that goes for the silvers, too, then...... but then what to do about those dang almonds....they've been around since the beginning. Let's just ban them anyway to be on the safe side.....And even if the genetisists say that reduced has actually mutated from the BR....what the hell do they know? No mutations, anymore!!! But then how do we keep guys from sneaking in a blue check or a black off of a colored roller. Hmmmmmm. I don't know if we can make this work or not Milo.......but I really think that is the only fair way of judging performance Birmingham Rollers. LOL! Based on color! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 1:17 PM
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George R.
545 posts
Apr 28, 2008
12:58 PM
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Cliff
I have never seen your Birds ... But I know they are the real deal, when it comes to competitions you have proved
that you are one to reckon with.
I honestly think you and your birds are a threat to Win any Fly that you enter.
Keep doing what you are doing , because its Working.
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Ballrollers
1161 posts
Apr 28, 2008
1:22 PM
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Thanks you, George! I appreciate the acknowledgement. And I see that you, too, are one to be reconned with. Congrats on your World Cup Regional Fly. I hope I can get out and see your birds sometime. Wish me luck. We fly this weekend. I may have peaked 'em too early.......41 clean breaks, and 4 waterfalls when they flew on Saturday.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 1:23 PM
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155
723 posts
Aug 01, 2008
9:26 PM
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