Ballrollers
1166 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:18 AM
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Too funny, Richard. LMAO!
Cliff
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Roll Down
28 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:23 AM
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Would someone please answer Sat Roller's post?
What constitutes a "Color Bird?"
Do they all have to be blues, checks,grizzils etc.?
What about yellows?
Thanks
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Ballrollers
1167 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:44 AM
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It depends on who you talk to, Rolldown....that's my point. They disregard the geneticists when it comes to the reduced factor.....matter of fact they disregard any iformation that counters their point of view. Good luck with that one.
Cliff
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rollerman132
273 posts
Apr 29, 2008
10:56 AM
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Why is this question of color so difficult for you guys to answer? Did Pensom have Toy stencil? If its color is not named in Pensom’s book, then its one of those freaky colors! LMAO
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 10:56 AM
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sippi
198 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:08 AM
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I said I would not post on another color debate again but since this one has taken a somewhat intelligent turn I just couldnt help it.
Paul I usually agree with you until now. You keep spouting about he registration bodies of other breeds.
ADGA
AKC
ABGA
ANGA
All cattle registrar's
All these will register grades and call them pure after either four, six or seven genrations depending on which one you refer to. These are facts and I am sure you know it because an earlier post stated so.
Some of you need to do a little genetics research before wading in on such subjects. I have, having studied animal Husbandry in college.
F1 crosses will not roll period. This has been studied in the pursiut of the RO gene.
F2 crosses tumble some or not at all.
I wont go further unless someone wants me to dig up the study to tell exactly were the roll is recovered.
Pure and Fullblood are the terms now used by the other registrar's as defining an animal of the exact same breed that has a cross in the back ground. Pure is a cross that has been repeatedly crosse to full bloods to keep and maintain the "COLOR, type, and size of the breed".
All these other animals are accepted as pure as of today even though the crosses have been made a little as four to ten years.
So what makes the Birmanigham roller any different than any other established breed.
If it rolls like one it is one.
Sippi
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fhtfire
1295 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:28 AM
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Sippi,
Why don't you agree with me.....my post is exactly what you said...LOL!!....I know for Dairy goats..when a goat is a full breed...the ped is blue....if they are a cross the ped is a redish brown color and you don't get a blue until after a certain amount of generations.
I do agree that a Birmingham is like every other animal..after a certain amount of generations...you will burry that "color" gene so deep that it will take just the right mating to pop its ugly head on a consistent basis. Now we all get a gene shit sandwich with birds with webbed feet..etc...I have a cock that I bred tons of rounds from and never produced a web foot bird...put it with a hen and every gosh damn bird came out webbed...so it is a matter of the right genes lining up.
Sip..I never said anything about after so many generations that they are still not a full bred...That is why I said the NBRC should see what other organizations do....and most if not all have a certain amount of generations before it is pure again or can be registered as pure.....I think most are 6 generations....so I you have nothing to disagree with.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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SAT Roller
108 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:32 AM
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Paul,
How did you get duck in your birds? LOL If it has web feet is it pure????
Still would like to know what colors True Pure Birmingham Rollers are.......
Richard
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sippi
199 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:34 AM
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Hey Paul that said then we do agree but you just took a different side of the coin than the purist core on here.
I keep peds on my birds just because I want to and for my breeding records. But as Cliff has stated there are some mutations that have occurred in the breed and will be more down the road. The purist line does not allow this.
I have read of people discarding the better bird because someone slander the line they were raising. That is a travesty.
To me it all goes back to the description of the breed.
sippi
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sippi
200 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:39 AM
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Another thing preached by flyers on both sides of the fence.
Before buying birds go see them fly and pic the ones you like. I have the ones I like and got rid of pure Pensoms (supposedly) to replace them with. I know I have color genes in my birds but if you look in my kit box you cant pick one out. And you surely cant dispute the looks of the bird as I wont breed an out of balance bird regardless of its ability in the air.
I dont advocate crossing for performance as it cant be done. I breed best to best and dont care what the color is. I do breed with balance in mind though.
sippi
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fhtfire
1296 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:42 AM
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Ty....your turn buddy....I do not know what post you read...but I never said that you have to cross something every two generations..to keep color.....I have no idea how many generations you have to cross...because I don't breed color. As far as answering your post....I will tell you this...if you have birds that were crossed fiddy years ago...then your birds are pure my friend......as long as you have bred pure to pure...all these years. Again, I never said anything about two generations...and everything that I have stated is a fact.
As far as color...I am not talking about torts, or rr, or blue check, or grizzle....I am talking Toy Stencil, lace...etc...we all no that those are not Birmingham colors...I have a video from some guys that did the crosses and tell you exactly how you thy did it...they crossed...and they admit it...so my hat is off to them. It is the ones that don't know the history and argue that the colored birds they have are pure...sorry but no.
As far as birds in a kit box showing normal colors and have been crossed way back when....well how far back is it....that is the key....just because they are not showing the paint job..does not mean they are pure....and as far as being able to check peds....well...we have to police ourselves.....there are loopholes in every organization...you can lie and send in fake paperwork to any organization and sell mutts...but most do not..due to being educated and having integrity......the other reason why it does not happen is because most animal owners that spend the money on a purebred....love the breed and want to do there part to keep it pure...there are dip shits in every breed that want to screw it up....hell..breed in some color and call it a different breed..call it a Colonial roller hell I don't know..lol....it is all about keeping a breed pure....
anyway....I never said you have to breed back color in two generations...the fact is that you WILL lose the toy stencil if you keep breeding pure Birminghams generation after generation....but of course you may have a bird that carries it dominate...mother nature works in strange ways...if you are having toy stencil popping up after 50 years...something is not right...if you have been breeding all pure...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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luis
866 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:43 AM
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Cliff,your post #1165 should put things into perspective for all of us.So much can be lost in the pursuit of perfection!The funny thing is,this is the slogan i chose for my peds......"In pursuit of perfection".I thought it was catchy,and of course i meant it from a performance point of view.lol.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 11:50 AM
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Ballrollers
1168 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:51 AM
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Thanks Luis.....glad somebody remembers what is important.
Paul,
This is for you, too:
Source: Hollander, "On the Origin of Domestic Genes: 1. Brown" NPA News,
April 1958, page 6.
Hollander later wrote, in 1982:
"After the above was written I was soon informed that brown does exist
in Nuns and LFCL Tumblers. Also I have seen it in English Pouters and
Modenas, and it has been INTRODUCED into Rollers, Saxon Ice Pigeons, and
Fantails." (emphasis mine)
Source: Hollander, "Origins and Excukrsions in Pigeon Genetics," 1982,
page 56.
3. The only genetic color factor mutation known to have first been
discovered in Rollers is the "reduced" factor, which was first
identified by Carl Graefe in 1945 in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, in a pair of
"pied Birmingham Rollers, ancestry unknown, and derivation rather hazily
going back to 'Rollers from Baltimore.'" Carl Graefe, NPA News, April
1960, page 26.
Yes, it is possible that brown might have spontaneously mutated in
rollers, but there is no record of that happening in pure rollers,
though there is evidence that brown was introduced into rollers through
outcrossing sometime between 1958 and 1982."
Cliff
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sippi
201 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:55 AM
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Paul Mother Nature can and does play funny tricks. That is why the drooped wing will pop up every now and then. The hard liners will kill it and keep it a secret. Those that dont care will fly it and just not propagate it. That is the Oriental ancestry. Genes and gene pairing is a really peculiar animal. If two lined up correctly you could concievably get any bird that was used in the make up of the Birmingham roller.
I havent a clue how long it takes for color to breed out but at the rate my birds are going it wont be long before they are all black baldheads. And I didnt start with a single black baldhead as a breeder.
I do know that pigeons will mutate as fast as any domestic breed there is. That is why geneticist use them in studies of inheritence.
sippi
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fhtfire
1297 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:56 AM
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Richard,
I can tell you from what I know and have read.....true colors are ...RR, Tort, Grizzle, Mottle, Pie Bald, Bald, Blue bar, blue check, white, mealy, Lavender, Black...just as some examples....I have never read that Yellow is..but that I do not know....Some of the old timers would have to say what color that is...lol...Andalusian is not a natural color..but out of all the colors added....the Andalusian has been around for quite awhile and seem to hold up pretty well and has become a dominant color..even after 5 generations of pure breeding.....Hell I had an andy and he was a star and he produced andy on every bird I put him on...even a Scott C. bird....I know that Toy Stencil, Lace as an example are NOT natural...I think it is easier to say what colors are NOT true birmingham.
I am by no means an expert on color..LOL...my beef is not about color it is about mixing to make colors...you breed for the roll and performance and that is it...if you cross in to get a color and claim it is a Birmingham..then shame on you...it is about the rare colors..rare meaning added in.....maybe Cliff can shed some light on what colors on not true colors...I know he is in contact with some of the guys that introduced the new colors by crossing...which again..people are free to do what they want...I just want to keep the breed pure...so my kids kids can have Birminghams....
If there is a standard of what colors are allowed...it would not be me to set them...because I only know the basics.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1298 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:05 PM
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Sippi,
Did you know that Darwins theory of evolution was tested with pigeons because of what you just stated..they are easy to produce and you can get generations so fast....anyway..just a little something I learned on the History Channel...LOL.
I know what you Mean....
Cliff....I understand what you are saying.....I have read in an old Pensom writing somwhere that he mentioned brown....Brown is not as freaky to me as Toy Stencil or Ice....some colors will mutate over time.....Again....it is all about keeping it real...and not messing up a breed for a pretty color....Cliff..it is more about keeping the name...when it should not....and keeping it pure....or individuals..passing an "obvious" colored bird as a pure Birmingham....I mean I would would not pass a lab off as a lab if it looked like a german shepard......Hell even the Labs have a different look within the breed...the old English labs..are smaller and have the huge square head.(traditional) lab look...then you have the long nosed labs...anyway...that just happens..kind of like muffed..or droopy winged...or even brown I guess for that matter...anyway...You know where I stand...it is more about integrity and ethics with me...and My love for the Birmingham roller for what it does and the drive to keep the standard....and not push a color...hell if I want a pretty color....get a different breed.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1170 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:45 PM
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Paul,
I was really emphasizing Hollander's information on the Reduced gene.....and the fact that the "purist pedigree" canp is willing to dismiss any factual information that doesn't fit into their agenda, regardless of how credible the source is....and by the way....I don't know anyone that works with this family that refers to their birds as "pure Birmingham Rollers".
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 12:48 PM
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SAT Roller
109 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:50 PM
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I guess when it comes to color, the birds I have would be considered pure as I don't have any lace or anything like that. Also the birds I have have been bred for performance.
The prettiest birds I have are a couple grizzles.
I am just getting back into it and I am very much interested in performance; however, I also like color for example: a nice deep rich reccessive red, a nice grizzle, black badge wf/wt, etc. I just enjoy a variety of colors.
The bottom line is if the ones I have started back with can not produce for me birds that will spin with quality & depth, then as far as I am concerned they are trash and I will start over...
If the birds I have spin like no body's business, then as far as I am, concerned I will work with them and be happy...
FYI Just a little twist, years ago I visited Roger Baker up in Arkansas and he had the prettiest birds I had ever seen. My wife and I stayed at his house and watched his kits fly for two days. His birds put on a very good show while we were their and some of his best spinners were his blue laced birds.....
I don't know how Roger got all the colors he had, I do know that his blacks threw the blus laces as if they were blue laces them selves?????
Richard
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Ballrollers
1171 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:52 PM
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Rollerman
You bring up a old question. Was WHP interested in Genetics? A little, as I understand it, but I doubt he could identify indigo on a red checker. We have men today that can't see a genetic factor right in front of them; and they are predisposed to be very unhappy if they saw one. Deny, deny, deny. Just because it was not noticed in the last few decades ( or longer) does not mean it was not in, the early developmental stages, of the BR when several breeds were being crossed in, in England, for various performance characteristics. For one thing, Nobody was looking for colors; and for another, few had the experience to correctly identify a genetic color modifier; and for another, the scientific knowledge just wasn't there yet...
Today, the purist mind set, is that "documented" genetic identification of a few mutations simply did not occur or "they were just lying." Any excuse will do....
Experience and book facts do not always correlate, but my opinion is swayed more by historical information and scientific fact in the books than by men's opinions that have no education in the fields they expound on (like Genetics for instance). But that is just me.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1299 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:54 PM
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It is not about the reduced gene and not accepting it...it is all about the fact that other breeds are being introduced for color only and nothing else...it is not to improve on the standard by breeding for performance...only color...that is what it is about...so showing an article about a reduced gene means nothing..it means that some played with different breeds....the whole point........if it is natural mutate or a reduced gene..then that is acceptable...but we are not talking about that..we are talking about the colors that were man made, and nothing else..and we both no what some of those colors are.....natural accepted....unnatural unaccepted...simple....did I get your post.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1172 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:13 PM
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Paul
Would it interest you to know that many times, James Turner would work on a specific factor for 8 to 10 generations to set the factor and be sure of the performance....BEFORE it was allowed to leave his place? Most of these factors took many years before James was satisfied with the color and performance. I will speculate that most of the birds that left his lofts were as genetically pure as any text, and most breed related organizations, would require. I know men who have been breeding from the Turner family of birds, for 10-15-20 years or longer, and are still enjoying the performance of these birds. (And NO Scott, they are not continuing out-crossing to keep a color or factor....) They have been heavily inbred for many generations...I have never seen or heard of anything unusual popping up as you guys allege. (It's amazing to me how guys who have never worked with this family are such experts on them.) James started with a super good rolling family and added the color. It was not easy and it took many generations, but the end product was a great spinning performance roller. I fly them, I like them, lots of guys fly them and they are winning with them. If we didn't like them, we would find something better. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm to fly these birds. And they meet or exceed the NBRC's performance definition of a Birmingham Roller. Some of you may disagree, or shall we say strongly disagree.
But after giving this a great deal of thought, I believe this discussion, and the concerns of the purist pedigree guys, is all based on fear.....fear that something better has been developed in rollers...fear that this family is winning more and more....fear that they have become in heavy demand......fear that Turner's skill in pairing rollers for perfomance is one of the best ever...fear that they may be wrong about these birds (or their own)....fear that the color birds may, indeed, be better performers than many of the "pure pedigree" families.
Just My Honest Opinion.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 1:15 PM
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Ballrollers
1173 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:23 PM
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Guys,
When I read all about this serious disapproval of Color birds and then I think, How in the world did James Turner, single handedly move the NBRC to accept this idea? How did they allow him to be elected President? How did they allow him to be inducted to the NBRC HOF? How did they allow his genetics tapes to be advertised in the NBRC bulletin? He couldn't have done this by himself; he had to have support from others, from the NBRC membership, from the HOF, from the flyers....from lots of men. WHERE WERE YOU THEN?
Scott has been all around the USA judging kits, in his opinion the color birds are a non issue, he said. According to him, they are not widely found among the competition flyers.
The NBRC EC is not one to favor change, change of any kind. They are tough to move in one direction or another. Dave Szabatura, Paul, and others cant tell you the same thing. Trying to get 50% plus one vote of the EC to all agree on these very divisive issues, will be a tall order. I am not saying it can't be done or shouldn't be done, just that it will be a tough row to hoe. If every color bias man here was an RD and the President would bring up this issue for a vote..... it still would not be a lead pipe cinch.
Say 25% were for a breed color standard, 25% against and 50% of the membership, don't have any problems with the present definition.... We could all vote and be right here next year discussing this same topic.
OR we could move forward from this point. If the Color-bias men are right and the color birds fall from grace and cannot keep pace with the PURE BR's, that will be cause to accept their opinions. The Purists will win the debate. The purists will always breed pure? Right? The breed will be secure? Right?
In my opinion, performance alone defines this BREED of pigeon, not color , not pedigree, not back ground, nothing. So far, there is no roller organization or pegeon organization, that I know of, that uses color to define, what is and what is not, a Birmingham Roller.
If you men are destined to take us down this road, start with the local clubs, put your opinions to the test, police each loft, educate yourselves on identification of these unwanted factors...... the study of genetics. Tell these guys they can't fly or support your region's flys until they rid themselves of all kit birds that have mongrel blood anywhere in their background, regardless of their color or performance.
We can call it the WHP rule. See how it goes over. Start small and work up to where a majority of the local clubs have the policy in place and is strictly enforced. Quit calling yourselves Roller clubs and put the name right in there ... XYZ PURE Birmingham Roller Club; Colors strictly enforced. NO FREAKY COLORS ALLOWED. Now the flyers can be of dubious distinction, with a long history of legal entanglements, child molesters, dope peddlers, thieves, what have you......but the Birmingham Rollers are pure as the driven snow! And that's what really matters, I guess.
Cliff
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dmitch
63 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:23 PM
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The grizzle color came in around the 1900 when the English add the Tippler.
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Ballrollers
1174 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:29 PM
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Thank you, Mitch. So we agree to accept the breed outcrosses that occurred around 1900, in this "pure" BR breed....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1175 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:33 PM
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Tell you what? If you purist pedigree guys will accept a criminal background check on all NBRC members and all local club members, refuse to admit all convicted felons, all wife beaters and anyone with 3 or more minor ( non felony) criminal offenses, I will find it in my heart to support your purist agenda.LOL!
Raise you hands please so you can be counted. Oops, I just remembered, I will not be accepted into any pure BR club because of a few past indiscretions.
If our birds must be pure, it only stands to reason that the members must also be held to a higher Pure standard? Did I just hear the membership drop like a rock? Are there too few of us left to fund a national fly?
Seriously, though, are so few men breeding "true" families that the breed is in jeopardy? Did we do that to ourselves, for all the right reasons and just shoot ourselves in the foot?
And who will be the first local club to limit membership to only certain colors? Any of you that does it already? This is such a big deal to you guys.... Who does it now? Paul? Dave? Milo? NicK? Tony? Who?
And if not, why not? Hmmmmmmmm.....
Cliff
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1176 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:36 PM
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Milo
"Out in the open" My gosh man where have you been, man? The NBRC advertised the Turner genetic tapes for years IN THE NBRC BULLETIN. It was never a secret! It has been a thorn in the side of a few men for many years and now things seem to have come to a head in this roller forum.
Cliff
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SAT Roller
110 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:37 PM
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Cliff,
I drinking what you drinking!!!!!!!!! Wow..
I sure do like color & performance and I agree with you, if it performs to standard then it is a Birmingham Roller plain and simple...
Richard
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dmitch
64 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:45 PM
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Cliff all rollers have the same genetic code it is when someone add a none performer for color.
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fhtfire
1300 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:48 PM
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Cliff,
Purist pedigree. guys.....nobody said anything about pedigrees....and when you say that a guy takes birds that have color and the color sticks after generations because of inbreeding...then after 10 ro 15 generations there is still color..that is because your are inbreeding crosses..so you will never be pure again...you have to breed 1 cross for many generations with PURE breeds to get back to pure...not inbreed crosses...that is why the gene hangs around....nothing new that is pure is brought in. So Turner kept the colors after 10 generations...is it because he kept breeding within his family of 10 generations of crosses breeding together....
Ok..lets say I take one of his 10 gen crosses....that has been inbred with crosses......and take it home...throw that one bird in my loft....and I make sure that I breed the offspring with pure blood...all the way down the line...the F1 never sees its own blood generation after generation...I can't believe that the color will still be there.
Cliff...inbreeding crosses with crosses only produces crosses......you never get pure again..unless you stack every generation of cross blood up with a Pure bred will you sooner or later squeeze the Color out of it.....
IT is not about fear....fear of what...better birds...how can going after color breed better birds......that does not make sense to me...the birds get better and get the roll back by breeding with superior pure breds year after year...and then crossing back to the color and back and fourth....right...I am not a retard dude...lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1301 posts
Apr 29, 2008
1:49 PM
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SAT
The birds in your loft and the colors you are talking are not colored birds...you talk about balds etc......those are natural...Lace and Ice are not..rock and Roll
Paul
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 2:03 PM
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maxspin
220 posts
Apr 29, 2008
2:10 PM
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The Birmingham Roller Pigeon is first and foremost a PERFORMANCE standard. As soon as you put the BREED standard you will next have a standard of what the bird looks like. THAT is NOT the road we want to go down.
PURE bred animals are only Advertised that way for two reasons. Showing and Sales. The people who actually use the animals care about how they function not the appearance. It may be that the PURE bred is the best function, but not always.
Lets take a look at some dog breeds. Sled Dogs, I guarantee that any sled dog team that is competitive in the Iditarod is full of "Mongrels". NOT one "PURE" bred on the team. Why do you think the Jack Russell Terrier club and the Border Collie club fought so hard to NOT be accepted by AKC. It is because the BREED standard is more important than the PERFORMANCE standard. Look at what the AKC BREED standard did to the German Shepard the Grey Hound and the Whippet.
I have the same statement to the "Pure Breed" folks as I do to the "Color Bird" folks.
Put them up AND shut up!
Let your score sheet do the talking.
Keith Maxwell
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Ballrollers
1177 posts
Apr 29, 2008
2:22 PM
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Paul
I understand your concerns but these so called color birds meet the requirements of the WC/NBRC to compete in their fly's. They perform to meet my standards and they meet the performance standards by the NBRC. If they don't suit everybody everywhere, should I give up and give in to color bias? Why?
When and IF, the rules of the game change, I may have to reassess my positions. Until then, I see no reason to accept your opinion over mine.
Did you not just state that the number of generations behind a cross, had a direct bearing on if it can meet the genetic standards to be called pure? I have 20X -30X generations of performance tested rollers behind every bird I fly. They may have a rare factor or two scattered in their distant backgrounds but they have the heart and soul of the TRUE Birmingham Roller. Your ignorance of genetics surprises me, my friend. You are absolutley wrong about all this crossing back crap. You've been listening to Scott too long and he has polluted your mind. LOL! Go do your pigeon genetics homework and then come back and we'll discuss this some more. I have never crossed in another breed to my rollers. James Turner did once but culled them all and used only rollers to continue his color birds with. Yes, one roller outcross (somebody else crossed in the other breed waaaayyyyy back) for each genetic facor was used. Everything else went back to the Pensom and Lloyd Thompsons and then best to best. So no longer are crosses of other breeds necessary in these rollers. WHO are you referring to that is doing all this crossing? I know of no one doing that. If you choose not to believe the truth , that is your choice. All who wish, may persist in ignorance in the pursuit of their agenda.
Just because I choose to fly Birmingham Rollers with colors added , am I now a color-breeder crossing in other breeds into my rollers, in your mind? Goodness, Gracious! Is every man with an indigo on his place, a color-breeder in your mind? Is, now, every man who has a color bird in his loft , a man who crosses other breeds onto his rollers?
I think this is a witch hunt, guys. Nopthing more. You are not even talking facts, anymore...just rumors and heresay. If guys are crossing in breeds to their rollers and they don't know what they are doing , they will die of old age before they see a single flip. We have Birmingham rollers in every color of the rainbow. Pick what ever color turns your crank.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1178 posts
Apr 29, 2008
2:24 PM
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Paul,
You are not understanding. Turner went through the genetic procedure to create a color bird back and forth to the BR until the final birds carried enough of the BR genetic material to be considered "genetically pure". Just as in any other livestock cross. The Santa Gertrudis was 15/16 but it is genetically pure just like the colored BR. He did it by accepted genetic procedures.
If you can't tell a turner blue check is different from a Pensom blue check, and if you can't tell a Turner spinner from a Pensom spinner, Turner did a fine job.
Have you seen the color birds at Randy Gibson's loft? What did you think? He's one of us, you know.
Cliff
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George R.
558 posts
Apr 29, 2008
2:32 PM
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Cliff
Randy G. is flying a great kit Full of andys, I am not sure why he didnt fly in his region for the World Cup but I can gurantee anyone ,it's possible that he is flying the best kit in Southern California right now.
I can honestly say he would have given Abel a run for his money.
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fhtfire
1302 posts
Apr 29, 2008
2:45 PM
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Cliff,
My point exactly....if they are 15/16 and showing blue check then they are considered pure from a genetics stand point....that is why it is a blue check and not a lace....as you breed the roll back in...the colored gene keeps falling down the genetic ladder....further from the top.....show me a 15/16 lace.....I really do not think you could.....everytime you breed back to a pure roller...the colored gene....keeps falling back.....to the point it is 15/16 and it is so burried in the genetic pool....that you will need another colored bird or unpure bird to try and get it back out.....then back to the BR...to get the roll and back and fourth.....it is the exact same thing I do for performance with my pure breeds....start losing traits that you want...you go back to the originals...to get our trait back.....the only difference is that I breed withing my pure breds...and colored breeders breed within there pures and mixes to keep the color...
I just want to say....colored birds do roll...no doubt about that.....that is a fact....the meet the standard..but they don't meet the name because of being unpure.
and above comments...if it rolls like a Birmingham then it is...that is a crock...again..I have seen some tumblers ball up like a br....but guess what just because they meet the standard they are not a br....if I took a fantail and clucked it on the head...and all of a sudden it could fly and ball up like a br....you could not tell the diff..in the air....no matter how much it meets the standard it is still a fantail.....CLiff you are an educated man....I know you can see where I am coming from......Cliff....if you have a kit full of blue checks, grizzles and they go back 5 or 6 gens to a colored bird and have been bred pure each gen and each gen never seeing its colored blood again...then you have BR.....that is why they no longer carry the paint job...my point has been answered by you....keep it pure and you will lose the color....do it the other way....and you will lose the roll.....
Again..just because it rolls like one does not mean that it is one....read my last posts.....and the definition...to be a BREED it has to be pure..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Hector Coya
114 posts
Apr 29, 2008
3:24 PM
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You guys need to learn how to ENJOY your birds,and quit worring about what your fellow breeder is doing in his own back yard,,,
Hector Coya
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Windjammer Loft
277 posts
Apr 29, 2008
4:55 PM
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Paul.. Iam not trying to beat you down. But you have mentioned the AKC numerious times when making your comparisons. I too have been into Dogs(in various aspects)for over 30 yrs. If you really go back far enough just about EVERY dog that IS, was brought about by putting other dogs in the mix. Mainly, all dogs are mixtures of other breeds of dogs that were added to the mix. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you. The Breed is the Breed and the Standard is the Standard. We definately need some clairification from the governing bodies on this matter. but this AKC thing is a horse of a different color....lol. Just thought I'd add my 2cents worth.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 4:57 PM
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sippi
202 posts
Apr 29, 2008
4:59 PM
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If Brown was put in in 1982 and a bird bred once a year since then would be .00000143% impure. That is close enough for me.
I got a brown grizzle last year out of my stock birds. Purist just call it dun to mask the color.
Pensom also raised yellow but didnt like them, they just sold well. Was he really a color breeder in the closet?
When color gene are set as a phenotype they are there for good and if you bred one into your loft you would only get it out by selecting for color first by your example. If you bred best to best then you would have to see. It might take over your whole loft. Depends on how good the bird was.
By your example (Paul) you would be breeding for color would you not? We disagree again because you just jumped back over the fence. Funny thing about color breeders there probably isnt one on here that posts on a regular basis. I dont know anyone who is serious about thier rollers that crossbreeds.
Sippi
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Ty Coleman
240 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:02 PM
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Some use the excuse that it may be a rare color but it performs like a brimingham so it is...that is a FALSE statement. I will take Dairy Goats....if you cross in another breed...it takes 5 or 7 generations(can't remember) to be able to register that goat a a purbred and have the ped to prove it.....that means ....5 or 7 generations of breeding PURE goats together.....now if you breed pure Birminghams together with a colored bird for that many generations....well..you will lose the color...it will sooner or later revert back...so why f up a pure bird just for a color that will only last a couple generations...to keep the color you have to continue to breed mongrel to mongrel....get it...so you never get pure again....
Paul this is from your post,if i took it wrong im sorry but a couple means two where im from and these are not facts because they are not true. Indigo is in my birds and has been in this family since the 80's with out being introduced since.Not trying to be rude just posting the way my family of birds are.Guys dont be to hard on me because i wont be hear to defend myself they just put my 7 month old son in the hospital with a respritory infection so ill be out for a few days in the hospital.Keep us in your prayers thanks Ty
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 5:30 PM
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fhtfire
1304 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:19 PM
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Read my post way back when...I stated that EVERY breed started with a mix somewhere...I know that...I use the AKC has an example if using records and keeping a data base policing the standards for shows on what a breed should look like and the point that they have teeth...anyway...re-read my post...I believe that I said that most domesticated breeds have been crossed with other breeds way back when....and most pure breds have been crossed to make new breeds....I know that.
Cliff...I not attacking our birds....lol....I AGREE WITH YOU>..if you have not added color for 20 generations or whatever you used...and the birds are not showing toy stencil...then you are saying that they are pure...I have to take your word on it...that is ethical...I even agreed that my own birds may have a cross 50 years ago...I have no way to prove it...but if one of my birds is showing a toy stencil I will not say that it is a Birmingham roller....but the fact is...if it has been bred pure for 20 years...I doubt very seriously that the toy stencil will show through.
I am not talking about guys that put color in birds 25years ago...and then bred pure back into the birds for all those years.....those are not the colored birds I am talking about....the birds I am talking are like the one on the picture of that damn white bar thing on the NBRC site...There is no way to prove anything unless it shows the paint job..that is why I keep saying integrity and ethics....I agree with you...your birds are most likely all pure breds if you have been breeding pure for 20 years....and a colored bird was in the mix way back when....LAST TIME>>>>I AM TALKING ABOUT THE GUYS BREEDING COLORED BIRDS THAT ARE SO CLOSE TO THE CROSS THAT THE PAINT JOB IS ON THE BIRD>>>>IT IS OBVIOUS AND THEY ARE CLAIMING IT IS A PURE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER>>>>>that is all...if you have a loft full of blue checks and grizzles and they meet the standard and 20 years ago they had a cross in the mix...OBVIOUSLY it has been bred out if you are showing the normal colors....It is not about you Cliff...it is about the obvious.....and you know as well as I know if there is an ice laced white bar bird in a picture and it says birmingham roller...then that is a lie....if it is still showing the paint job..it is not pure.
Same goes with my goats that I had...if I crossed and it still shows the floppy half nubian ears on an earless lamancha and it is 4 gens down from the cross...I can't claim it is a pure lamancha...because it is still showing the cross...that is what I am saying...but if it is 6 gens out and no sign of a cross...then it is now pure....and its offspring no longer shows the cross..it is pure....it is not brain surgery.
Look..if a cross is done....and that F1 is bred to a pure br....and then that offspring is bred to a pure br and so on...then when that color no longer pops up and it is showing blue check and bald like your birds and the offspring no longer show the color...then that is a pure bird....but it has to be bred out....
again...if it is showing the paint it is not pure....if you have ethics and it is 3 gen and not showing the paint it is not pure...make sense...that is all I am saying.....Cliff..I am not faulting your birds...you are ethical and have stated that your birds do not show color but have had color way back when..it appears that it has been bred out.
Now....Turner did what he did....good for him..it is a gifted man to get a close cross to roll...but that does not mean it was pure...it may be now....and jumping back and fourth from roll to color is how you keep both....if you breed for performance ...OVER TIME>.the color will vanish...if your breed for color...OVERTIME the roll will vanish.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
952 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:22 PM
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"But after giving this a great deal of thought, I believe this discussion, and the concerns of the purist pedigree guys, is all based on fear.....fear that something better has been developed in rollers...fear that this family is winning more and more....fear that they have become in heavy demand......fear that Turner's skill in pairing rollers for perfomance is one of the best ever...fear that they may be wrong about these birds (or their own)....fear that the color birds may, indeed, be better performers than many of the "pure pedigree" families."
Man, I was hoping to see some progress when I cam from work, and I find this. What a crock of shit. Why do you make things personal Cliff? Why would you make such statements. Sounds like a young cocky punk taunting a schoolmate. Who is being divisive now? You are no better than the other side you oppose. I was hoping to see you dig deeper, but you show me quickly why guys like Scott don't even bother with you anymore. I'd tell you where to stick your Turners, but I don't feel like getting moderated.
c
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fhtfire
1305 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:31 PM
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Ty
If you have indigo in your loft since the 80s and you have not re introduced it and you are breeding birds that carry the gene and have not introduced pure then you will keep that gene floating around.....to breed it out is just as much work as putting it in.....if you have the original stock carrying indigo and you keep inbreeding and so on...then that indigo gene will stay...because you are not breeding it out. without introducing new Pure Blood the gene will float around through breeding within your own strain...same goes with my birds...if I have a mealy bar gene floating around and I never add new birds from the outside...and continue to breed from my original birds then the gene will stay......to breed out something you have to keep breeding new pure blood every generation..if you do not do that it will hang around....that is not just for color...that is for anything...to get it out each year of offspring have to be bred to pure...and every year the % of color gene or what have you drops....anwyay...
Just like if I had my goats and did a cross ....if I do not breed the offspring from that cross line to pure blood every year..for 5or 6 gens...then that cross will never be bred out...but if I take the second gen and breed it to another goat that is 3 rd gen cross...and then breed that off spring pure and then breed the next gen to a 4 gen cross....you will never be pure...it will take forever....same goes with the birds...if you breed crosses to crosses...you will continue to get crosses...
rock adn ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1306 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:41 PM
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ty,
and when I said a couple gens...that is what I meant...in a couple gens the color would most likely not be showing...but the gene will still be there.....ad three more gens of pures and the color gene will be buried real deep....so I guess I was not being clear...LOL....I am not saying that it will not be a colored bird in a couple gens...the color will be few and far in between after a couple gens...but will still not be pure....Sorry..I was mixing apples and oranges.....do I make sense now...or am I still retarded...it is kind of like this...after a couple of gens....the color gene gets watered down...kind of like taking two thirds of your beer out and adding water.....still smell like beer..may taste a little like beer...but it sure as hell don't look like beer...lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1307 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:43 PM
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milo...am I speaking another language...am I making sense...I am going to have a high ball and then come back...lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
445 posts
Apr 29, 2008
5:52 PM
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("But after giving this a great deal of thought, I believe this discussion, and the concerns of the purist pedigree guys, is all based on fear.....fear that something better has been developed in rollers...fear that this family is winning more and more....fear that they have become in heavy demand......fear that Turner's skill in pairing rollers for perfomance is one of the best ever...fear that they may be wrong about these birds (or their own)....fear that the color birds may, indeed, be better performers than many of the "pure pedigree" families.")
Cliff, I gotta know ,
how did crossing in a show breed for color make them better ?
Once the cross was made were they bred back to the show Breed or to pure Birmingham ?
If back to pure Birminghams,why ?
If back to pure Birminghams how did the cross make them better than the pure Birminghams
What did Turner accomplish in the fly arena ?
Why are other families being crossed in by so many that have them (Turners)?
Why are you calling other peoples families Turners even though other families were crossed in on them ?
Who is flying only straight Turners in thier kits that are doing well ?
Thanks , Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 6:27 PM
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Velo99
1672 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:12 PM
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Gee guys,
The thread wasn`t about color. It was about the origins of the Birmingham Roller and it`s lack of positive identification by a club named after it.
Cliff want to go into a pseudo psychological evaluation if those who differ in opinion. Milo wants to see what we come up with in our discussion and Paul has relentlessly defined breed and the definition of purity in the same.
So can someone answer the question? What is the true Birmingham Roller? Lets get together here and do something productive instead of splitting hairs.
If we know the origins were Dutch Tumbler,FOR and Tippler,the characteristics of each breed should come into play in the genetic makeup if what we now have.
Old Dutch Tumbler:
Muffs: shanks with heavily feathered wide round muffs, covered with gradually shorter growing feathers tapering toward the knee joints; feathers overlapping regularly without gaps or long, misplaced feathers sticking out.
Color:
Unicolored - White, black, intense red and yellow; black barred blue with black barred tail; silver blue with dark wing and tail bars; grey-blue with regularly speckled head and neck; yellow silver with colored wing and tail bars.
Tigered - Unicolored over the whole body; wings show alternating small white and colored feathers. Occurs in black, red, and yellow.
Whiteshield - Entirely unicolored with the exception of the wing shields which must be pure white, exactly limited on all sides. Occurs in black, red, and yellow.
Whiteflight - Entirely unicolored except for seven to ten primary flights which should be pure white. Occurs in black, red, yellow, silver-blue and grey-blue.
Whitetail - Entirely unicolored except for twelve tail feathers which must be pure white. Upper and lower tail coverts are completely colored. Occurs in all colors and patterns.
Whiteflight-Whitetail - Here is a combination of seven to ten primary flights with a pure white tail inclusive upper and lower coverts which must be clean-cut from the body.
Magpie - Head is pure white as well as a large part of the front neck and occiput. This oval-shaped bib pattern must extend from 2 1/2" to 3" under the beak, exactly limited on right and left. Small round spot on top of skull; colored badge (moustache) of 1/2" long and 3/4" wide grows slightly downward at each side of beak. Spots and badges are closely and as uniformly as possible limited. Breast is full colored, reaching almost as far as the thighs; colored tail; abdomen, back, rump, hocks, and muffs are pure white. Occurs in black, red, yellow, blue, and dun.
FOR:
All colors are acceptable, they should be as intense as possible. Almonds and Grizzles are to be considered as solid colored birds. Blue series, T-pattern, Checkers, Bars or Barless should be considered in the same class. The same for the Ash Red and Brown series. White patterned birds, if allowed, should be considered as AOC (Any Other Combination) and not eligible for Champion status. AOC would be any color and White (Baldhead, Badge, Beard, Whiteside, Saddle, Monk, Priest, Gazzie or any other known combination.)
I like this line that begins this description.
Tippler:In this sporting breed less importance is attached to this category than to any other. With no preference given to any color or pattern, credit should be accorded to the success evident in approaching (We could insert performance here instead of the color description),pattern definition and achieving richness of color. Tipplers are permitted to any color, pattern or marking.
HMMM sounds like the BR.
These are show standards.Some of the patterns we get are simply imperfect markings.
If you want more of the physical characteristics of these birds I can paste em in.
So now we are down to the question of honesty among the breeders of the true Brimingham Roller.
Next....
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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sippi
204 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:21 PM
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Thank you for finally posting some facts. AOC white marked birds are not allowed in performing Orientals.
Sippi
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dmitch
65 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:23 PM
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The true origin of the Birmingham Roller was the Dutch Roller and Wire Leg Tumbler.
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Velo99
1673 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:30 PM
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ok Mitch
show us your facts.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Scott
446 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:33 PM
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(Paul Mother Nature can and does play funny tricks. That is why the drooped wing will pop up every now and then. The hard liners will kill it and keep it a secret. Those that dont care will fly it and just not propagate it. That is the Oriental ancestry. Genes and gene pairing is a really peculiar animal. If two lined up correctly you could concievably get any bird that was used in the make up of the Birmingham roller. )
Paul, not so, it is due to weak upper back muscles and tenion strength, you will also see it on many birds after a hard fly and especially with hard workers once they land.
You will also see it with old birds as they loose strength and muscle due to age.
It has nothing to do with Orientals, if it did you would see birds with more than 12 tail feathers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1674 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:39 PM
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Found this on an FOR site. Makes me feel a litle better.
There has been much work done with the Roller by men such as Dale Husband, Dave Camomile, and Mr. Drexler, all towards perfecting show birds and the trophies they win. In a few generations it is possible to breed out the characteristics that make up the Oriental.
This separation of aerial and show strains of a breed may also be noted in the Birmingham Roller and it is this "show" mentality that is responsible for the general loss in the quality that all breeds are experiencing today. When was the last time you had a bird as good as your birds of twenty years ago? - In any breed.
We`re NOT alone!
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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