Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1199 posts
May 01, 2008
1:55 PM
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Val. First thing is we are not on the other site.Me being a Moderator on that site has nothing to do with what I posted on this site.You on the other hand brought up the other site as an example of Trolling which was downright Baiting.Which you as a Moderator on this site should already know what the posting policy is.
Saying I am stirring the pot.Is what I posted so bad it has to be called stirring the pot.Lets get real here.We have been debating this topic on this site long before you were even around.
But as I was following this latest thread I did notice I belong to the Largest Birmingham Roller Club in the World and surely they should know what color or factors are allowed in the BR.
By the way I do have Pencil but not Toy Stencil.So I guess I have one thing that is not a Pure BR color.LOL. David
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Ballrollers
1185 posts
May 01, 2008
1:55 PM
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Tony,
Regarding your request, "I think an in-depth report published on RPDC on this issue would probably clear up all the confusion. Who wants to help?",
I will be happy to present the data and scientific background representing the perspective of those men who breed and fly Birmingham Rollers of families that contain modifying genes for color and patterns that are the result of spontaneous mutation; and those that may be the result of breed outcrossing 40-50 years ago.
Just let me know.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 01, 2008 1:57 PM
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Ty Coleman
241 posts
May 01, 2008
2:01 PM
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Tony that sounds like a great idea to me. I also wanted to add that my son is out of the hospital and doing well and i want to thank everyone for the emails and prayers.Ty
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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fhtfire
1312 posts
May 01, 2008
2:06 PM
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luis,
Great we both DO NOT advocate cross breeding...great..then why argue..LOL!! That is right...my very point that you stated..why do it when it takes to long to get it back....I never ever said that breeding color into a roller and have it still roll could not be done....I know it can...the whole question is WHY!!! You just answered the question yourself...why do it...it takes to long to make it right again....second you do not advocate crossing..then why argue the crossing point.
Second....it is just not breeding for X amount of generations...it is about breeding each generation to a pure bird...with every generation the color gene % gets smaller....and gets dropped further down the genetic chain......so....again..if you are breeding crosses to crosses..you will never be pure....if you have bred an F1 for 5 or so generations...with each generation breeding to a Pure bred and never seeing color blood again....you may have the gene floating around..but the odds of getting color are about the same as getting a web foot...of course the gene will still be floating around.....and there will be a occasion here and there where it pops up...So I agree with you....guess what...if we keep the breed pure....you would not have to worry about a toy stencil laced son bitch popping up....if we bred for the standard in the begining...nobody would ever breed for color..if they truly believe in the Standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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PR_rollers
1009 posts
May 01, 2008
2:12 PM
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Amen Ty good news to my ears ....glad he is out and your spirit is high...
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Ralph....
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2424 posts
May 01, 2008
2:36 PM
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Luis said:
"Now that Luis has been cornered",Damn Tony there you go again with your OPINION!Do you have anything of relevance to back that up?"
Luis, you have been owned and don't even know it. ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Electric-man
1525 posts
May 01, 2008
2:37 PM
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Your right David! I'm wrong! How's that?
I should have never questioned a man of your integrety!
My appologies!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2425 posts
May 01, 2008
2:54 PM
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See David, I knew there was a reason I locked this thread...they never lead to a satisfying conclusion for any parties.
After the World Cup, we should start a "mastermind" group to publish a paper collaborated on by those who are vocal about it on both sides, that they feel adequately represents their position.
I can already think of a couple people I want to ask to be a part of it. Let's get past the World Cup and see what we can get started.
While there may not be agreement on the final conclusion of the facts, maybe at least we can put together a document that can expose the strengths and weaknesses of both positions.
At least it can be said an honest accounting of the issue has been undertaken and fairly represented and can be released to the roller fancy.
Thoughts??
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1200 posts
May 01, 2008
3:17 PM
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Tony.It would be a good thing.And I agree both sides have laid the groundwork but in all honesty I think that the NBRC should step up and either clarify what they represent or change the PURE word.They can't have it both ways.Just my opinion.David
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Phantom1
206 posts
May 01, 2008
3:21 PM
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Tony,
I would contribute to this proposal depending on the specifics. I might suggest that you send those in mind a private email with the breakdown of the idea you have. I won't be offended if I'm not one of the group. However, I do think I could contribute on unique level. So email me if you would like to discuss it more detail.
Thanks,
Eric
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2427 posts
May 01, 2008
4:03 PM
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Hey David, I would agree, but as has been pointed out already, the club seems to have already articulated its position through its publications and charter?? That's enough for them??
If we all want more, I guess it's up to us, the RPDC site members, NBRC members and others to take a grassroots angle on the issue and put the train back on the track??
Eric, yep, you should be a part. I will put together a small committee to determine the best way to proceed and lay out ground rules that will be fair to both sides.
Maybe we are all on to something here.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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luis
901 posts
May 01, 2008
8:22 PM
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Sure Tony,if you say so.The expertise and wisdom of your words and the others who follow the purist philosophy have owned me!If anybody has been owned here it is the purists.Even the NBRC doesn't back them up!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2430 posts
May 01, 2008
8:38 PM
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Luis said:
"Even the NBRC doesn't back them up!"
My Response: PROVE IT!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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fhtfire
1313 posts
May 01, 2008
10:00 PM
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Luis,
It has not been proven.....Even Cliff said that he did not see any letters or hear of anyone asking for clarification on the matter....for something to go into writing about colored birds...if would have to go through the EC...I am on the committee and have not heard one thing and neither has Cliff....until I see letters signed by the NBRC on NBRC letterhead...then nobody had proven anything.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1314 posts
May 01, 2008
10:07 PM
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Oh..one more thing...it is not about proving anything or keeping score hear....do you know how funny it sounds for someone to complain about purists...the purists are the ones you should be saluting...so that your kids...and your kids kids can have pure rollers that meet the standard....color breeders are the ones that are doing it all wrong and not doing there part by meeting the standard....I would love to see an F1 roll and meet the standard......color breeders are not trying to better the breed or meet any standard right from the get go.
Now...I am talking about COLOR BREEDERS>..not fliers that have birds that were crossed 20 years ago....I am talking full on color breeders that claim the Name Birmingham Roller when they are not....everyone else can have fun in the backyard and cross everything as long as they are ethical and have the integrity to say that the F-1 all the way through the 5 or 6 gen are not Birmingham rollers...other then that...have fun and cross them up.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Again...this is not about who is wrong or who is right...it is about one thing...doing our duty to keep the breed that our for fathers have set for us nice and pure...and breed for the standard with pure birds and only pull birds for the breeder pin that meet the standard...both sire and dam should meet the standard set fourth by the NBRC...now another breed does not meet the standard...so neither sire nor dam should be of another breed...rock and ROLL
Paul
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luis
909 posts
May 02, 2008
12:14 AM
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Paul,are all colors that have been bred into the BR recessive?If the answer is no,you need to look over your statements carefully.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2008 12:17 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2431 posts
May 02, 2008
2:35 AM
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Luis said:
"Paul,are all colors that have been bred into the BR recessive?If the answer is no,you need to look over your statements carefully."
My Response: Why Luis?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2432 posts
May 02, 2008
2:39 AM
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Tony: “2 plus 2 equal 4”
Luis: “But if you take away 1 it equals 3, so you don’t know what you are talking about”
Tony: “Luis, 2 plus 2 equal 4”
Luis: “No, if you add 1, it equals 5”
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
LMAO!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 02, 2008 2:41 AM
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Ty Coleman
244 posts
May 02, 2008
3:46 AM
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Guys after alot of reading and research i have came to the conclusion that neither side of this coin can be proven. Records were not kept during the evolution of this breed.The only standard writen is on performance.With out records to show proof all else is speculation,theory,or opinion. Which will allways be disputed, if anyone has proof of there theory's i would shure like to see it.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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luis
911 posts
May 02, 2008
8:46 AM
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Tony,once again i stand corrected! LOL!
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luis
913 posts
May 02, 2008
9:01 AM
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Well put Ty!On another note, i'm glad all is well with your son.
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Ty Coleman
247 posts
May 02, 2008
2:15 PM
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Kenny -- show me where you got your info on the original birds bred to make this breed. Is that a fact or an theory you read somewhere? Im all about learning so please show me the facts."The breeds used in the creation of the birmingham roller are uncertain,for the lack of contemporary literature" Wendell Levi
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 02, 2008 2:22 PM
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sippi
219 posts
May 02, 2008
6:28 PM
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Ty he is correct as near as can be determined. It is thought they were made up of Dutch Tumbler, Old English Short Face tumbler and Oriental. Almost all rolling breeds owe their existence to the Oriental Roller. The Big Question would be which Oriental roller. There are at least four lines that were bred thousands of miles apart. It would make a huge difference in what colors were there. But more than likely it was the Smyrna line as Ember only occurs in the Kurdistan birds.
Sippi
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ezeedad
485 posts
May 02, 2008
7:46 PM
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Kenny H ... that is great information.... Thanks...
I wonder how West of England Tumbler fits into the equation. They used to come clean legged as well as muffed.
Gomez
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