Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2449 posts
May 07, 2008
3:23 PM
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Hey Kieth, let me just say that the breed is the breed, regardless of quality of a specific bird...the "standard" is what is designed to ensure those qualities that best represent the breed as indicated by the national body we know as the NBRC, continues on into the future without deviations.
A Birmingham Roller not meeting the standard should not be bred as it does not maintain or advance the breed, thereby weakening the stock available to the public.
Kieth said:
"...Now which would you rather have, pure B.R.that don't roll or color birds that do?"
First off, your questions implies there is no other choice, and there is...
I would rather have a Birmingham Roller that upholds the standard of the breed.
Kieth, I do not hold the position that a color roller is not capable of spinning in a manner that duplicates the performance characteristics of the Birmingham Roller, just that it is NOT a Birmingham Roller.
I think some others hold the position that over time, that breeding these type of color rollers won't hold up in the same manner as a well-bred family of Birmingham Rollers meeting the breed standard would, in the loft of an average roller fancier.
I would agree that the evidence suggest that there are a few exceptionally skilled color roller breeders who HAVE had success with the color roller varieties.
But the question I guess I have is this: was/is the success more due to their special abilities or rather the ability of the bird to easily pass on its rolling and color attributes to its offspring?
If the answer was "both", then the average roller fancier might very well have problems holding the strain together as he does not have the skills required as that of a Turner.
It the answer is the roller, then why have some of the few experienced roller breeders I have spoken with over the telephone admit that it is difficult to maintain the roll?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 3:52 PM
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George R.
628 posts
May 07, 2008
4:35 PM
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Tony
I consider the Birmingham Roller a breed, when I was a kid I use to go to the library and get books on pigeons and the Birmingham roller was always listed as a breed.
I agree with you that it dont mean that Birds with other breeds mixed into them are not capable of Rolling.
I could never justify telling someone " here is a Birmingham Roller" when it is of mixed blood.
There are those that are confortable doing this , for what reason I dont know.
if a Bird of mixed orgins can spin , then yes it could be called a Roller but not a Birmingham Roller.
Example: a quarter Horse crossed with a Thourobred would not be a Thourobred , its just that simple.
I cant understand why some folks cant accept the truth, maybe a hidden agenda? who knows.
I like watching birds perform ( spin ) so I dont really care about color. so it,s really not a issue with me until someone calls a Bird of mixed blood something that it isnt.
I think a bigger in justice is not flying the Birds , this breed is a performance breed , The Birds belong in the air ( of course not during the BOP season).
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 5:27 PM
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smoke747
1056 posts
May 07, 2008
4:56 PM
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Tony, I totaly agree, they shouldn't be called a Birmingham Roller. Should a Birmingham roller that does not meet "the standard" even though it is pure still be called a Birmingham roller? Their is also a performance standard. I've seen fanciers that have pure BRs but their birds don't do anything and they insist on keeping them pure and put color breeders down and can't hold up against them when it comes to performance. We all fell in love with the BR for it's performance not how pure it is. The keep it pure stuff came as we got older. I myself don't breed color birds and I don't knock those that do. They have the right to do what ever they want to do with their birds, but they SHOULDN'T be called BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS. it's that simple
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 5:25 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2452 posts
May 07, 2008
5:12 PM
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Thanks Bert.
As far as this one sounding like any others about color I would have to say I think I made things very clear. It starts to deteriorate when comments like Luis' are made.
They serve to merely muddy the waters and take attention away from the real meat of the original post. I have come to the conclusion that comments made by such as Luis have nothing of value to add to the understanding of the debate and show more of what they do not know than what they do.
I think he proved it when I called on him to explain somethings about color and what he does with it. He had nothing to say but to sound like his birds are not delivering the goods.
As for colors; the Ash Red Series and the Blue Series are enough for me as they seem to be the traditional colors recognized in the oldest known families. In other words, there is historical precedent to hold my position.
There might be differing opinions about certain colors or modifiers, but I will wait for the NBRC which is the official Birmingham Roller authority to announce otherwise.
Dave Kowalski has a nice list of colors and modifiers in his book "True Spinning Rollers". Have to buy it Bert! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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George R.
631 posts
May 07, 2008
5:12 PM
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well said Keith ......
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2453 posts
May 07, 2008
5:21 PM
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Luis, I feel like your recent postings have become troll-like as indicated by those most recent ones regarding this debate and which I find are really short of any substance or of any interest to me at all.
You certainly seem to want to mix it up but I find your comments lately mostly sophomoric and boring.
Go read up on other animal breeds and learn something about how the breeds and standards are maintained by the governing bodies, once you have some grasp, then come back when you have something to say that might actually add something to the conversation.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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pigeonflipper
36 posts
May 07, 2008
5:37 PM
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i realy dont see the point of argueing this one out,,,but i look at other lofts from england and hienys and i see coloured birds,,i guess my point that i want to add to this thread is colour dont matter,its performance that does,,if you cross something in to get a colour ,well and good,,,but say its a cross breed,,,,there is no shame in being honest,,,,cheers
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FLY HIGH=ROLL DEEP
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 5:37 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2454 posts
May 07, 2008
5:44 PM
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Luis said:
"By looking at a bird can someone state with 100% certainty what the genetic makeup of that bird is?If not,how can anyone claim what it is or what it is not!"
Well Luis, if you look into the night sky can you tell how many stars there are by looking up?
No you cannot, does this mean their are no stars? Of course not.
The only way of knowing with 100% certainty what the BR is genetically is for the NBRC to establish what the DNA is of the True Birmingham Roller, simply because they have not and probably will not does not mean the primary characteristic of a Birmingham Roller is not in evidence as demonstrated by the performance that meets the standard and shows the Ash Red and Blue color series.
The continued breeding of such a specimen and its offspring will eventually bear out its purity as the colors remain consistent through the generations by not showing the so-called rare colors.
Just look around at the lofts with established families that resemble BR in type, performance and color and you will not run into a rare-color roller.
Until and unless a color standard has been established in the BR breed by the NBRC, color is not an official factor in identifying the breed.
*Apparently many breeders of the Birmingham Roller Breed, recognize Andalusian as a color contained within the Birmingham Roller, as breeding techniques have taken place over sufficient generations without the result compromising the performance traits found within the true BR.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 5:45 PM
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fhtfire
1315 posts
May 07, 2008
6:07 PM
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Luis,
I will take a stab at your question....the fact of the matter is that if it looks like a birmingham...does not mean that it is...some of the old folk like to say that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..then it is a duck...that is fine and dandy...but it is not true.
I will say this again...I had a La Mancha dairy goat that was 1/4 Alpine goat and 3/4 La Mancha...now most goats look like goats....but a La mancha is different..they have no ear lobes....so they are distinct in the goat world...just like a Birminham is distinct because it rolls....
Now...this goat of crossed blood that I was talking about...looked like a La Mancha in everyway....and not even an expert or vet or anybody would be able to tell that it was of mixed blood...I mean this goat came out with all the traits of a La mancha...but guess what...it was not and could not be called a La Mancha...because it was not. So....it looked like a duck and quacked like a duck..but it was not....remember...NEVER JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVEr....anyway...my point is this....I could have told anybody that it was pure.....hell I could have even fibbed on the papers and put a different sire and dam just for the hell of it...and tattooed it as a pure bred..but it was not....and could not be called a la mancha breed....it all has to do with being honest and having a love for the breed....I had a love for the breed and I am honest...so I would never claim it to be a La Mancha....
SO just because it looks like a Birmingham..rolls like a birmingham...it is not a birmingham if it is of mixed blood...so the breed is set by the blood...not the standard.....I think I posted this very point about elevedy billion times in the other thread...again...the breed is the blood...the standard is what we measure our birds so that we are always RESPONSIBLE and breed only birds that meet the standard...if you do not breed birds that meet the standard you are most likely going to produce offspring that will not meet the standard....The standard is set so that EVERYBODY knows what to look for in a bird to stock and further the BREED as set fourth by the NBRC....
Now if you cross a bird from another breed...then you are not meeting the standard from the get go and going against the very standard set by the NBRC on what that breed stands for.....
The fact is...it is all about dollars and cents...pretty birds sell...that is a fact...you put a toy lace son bitch in a veiwing cage and put a nice Blue Bar ...and the blue bar is a superior bird...guess what 9 out of 10 times a new flier will pick the colored bird....hell I even did that when I first started...and Joe Urbon will tell you...all I had was a bunch of lawn darts that I could not control or would fall apart after a year or so. We as humans like pretty things...pretty cars....pretty girls.....and pretty pigeons.....
so...Luis..to answer your question...I dont give a dumb diddly dumb dumb do what the bird does in the air if it is of mixed blood...it is not a Birmingham roller....all it is...is a pigeon that meets the performance standard and that is it///because I can GUARANTEE that there is a full blooded bird that will do the same thing....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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gabe454
842 posts
May 07, 2008
6:09 PM
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hey paul i bidded on some of your birds in the WC auction just wanted to know the back ground on your birds if you dont mind.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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fhtfire
1316 posts
May 07, 2008
6:18 PM
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Luis,
You are right...there are times in every animal breed that you may not be able to tell if it is pure or not by its traits....that is a fact...and trust me it goes on all the time....the fact is...the honest people that love the breed want to maintain the breed...so they do not need to hire a geneticist to see that exact gene count....that is the whole point I have been trying to make....it does not matter what it looks like..only the breeder can tell you if it is pure in some instances.....and breeders that are not honest will call a birmingham roller...that is not a birmingham roller......now if it is showing the paint job..then it is obvious........and even then...it could be a freak thing and a bird had a throwback of 10 generations of rollers....but guess what...I would not buy it.....second......if it happened in any other breed....it would not fly either....of course that would mean a color standard.....and there is not a color standard for the birmingham at this point...but I bet Cliff could tell you what colors were brought in...(no disrespect to cliff)....it is just that I know that Cliff knows the guys that did the deed and they could for sure tell you what are not the true colors....and to back up Tony's post...I have to agree that James Turner is an AWESOME breeder to do what he did.....and bring back the roll and keep some color..but it did not meet the standard from the get go by crossing in a non rolling bird...or a bird that was not of pure blood...but I do respect him for being a master breeder...
Anyway....since there is no standard on color...that is beside the point...the point is...regardless of the paint job.....pure is pure....the color does not dictate...the roll does not dictate..the blood dictates the BReed..]
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1317 posts
May 07, 2008
6:22 PM
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My birds are Ruby Rollers and Mort Emami...my breeders are damn near split 50/50...This year all my offspring are crossed...Rubys to Morts....I have been working on the crosses since 04 and I am VERY happy with what I am getting......so that is why this year I crossed everything up....I even have a couple stock birds that are 50/50 and they have proven themselves too....so the crosses are producing with great results.......anyway...feel free to call me at 530-867-2288....we can talk on the phone.....rock and ROLL
Paul
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gabe454
843 posts
May 07, 2008
6:36 PM
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Thanks paul for the info my friend ill call you tommorow.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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katyroller
147 posts
May 07, 2008
7:58 PM
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Smoke747,
Good post. I've often asked why some members have to always attack others for asking a color related question or posting pics of "color" birds. I'll leave saying that I agree with you.
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sippi
224 posts
May 07, 2008
8:05 PM
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Paul you said "the roll does not dictate the breed, the blood dictates the breed"
I have to differ with that. The roll as stated by Pensom dictates the breed. Without the roll you have no breed. You just have a pigeon.
I wont re-debate the issue but they now have DNA testing for birds. I will bet that there would be some more ever suprised people if they tested all those supposed "PURE" birds.
I will report my progress with my mongrels along and along. They will be in the WC next year if they are up to snuff. And you cant tell a book by the cover. I could probably post my whole kit and no one could pick out the color birds unless they knew really what to look for. The Indigo does show on some, other than that they all look like any other bird on this forum.
sippi
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2460 posts
May 07, 2008
8:08 PM
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Hey Katyroller, exactly WHO was attacked for asking a question about colors? Where is it at? I may have to remove it. Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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azpigeonman
1 post
May 07, 2008
8:18 PM
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WOW?! is this quite a discussion.
I read, with great interest, the comments on this topic.
A Birmingham roller isn't a Birmingham Roller if it's of mixed blood? So a roller crossed to different breed then the babies back to Birmingham's for 5 generations aren't one percent Birmingham's?
So is there a color chart that dictates what is a Birmingham and what isn't? Blue bar, yes... recessive red, no...
Frankly a fancier can do whatever he wants with his own pigeons as far as I am concerned and IF he beats me on the day of the fly, then he had the better birds on that day regardless of what he calls them or what color they are.
If they are bred down from Birmingham rollers, have the correct quality and meet the standard, they are rollers.
To use the "logic" presented here by some posters, unless you can trace your rollers to Birmingham England and the black hills country, THEY aren't really "Birmingham's" are they? Taking it the next step, unless the pigeons in one's loft were ALWAYS bred in individual breeding pens, parentage can not be guaranteed making their pedigrees useless and there ancestry questionable.
Frankly, I don't raise "color rollers" but I believe if it's a good roller, whats the logical problem??? Put 'em up and let's see who's are better....
This discussion is pure personal opinion and pretty much that's all...
This reminds me of the old dual purpose roller debate from the 70's and 80's....
History repeating it'self....
just my opinion..
Quite entertaining.
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"The" AZpigeonman
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katyroller
148 posts
May 07, 2008
8:38 PM
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Tony, Simply go to the search Roller-Pigeon.com feature and type in "color". Read some of the endless posts on the subject. The best part is that after you read some of these posts you start to notice a trend developing, it seems the same individuals always have to throw around insults and turn posts into worthless trash rather than educational debates. I think there has always been three camps of thought on this subject: 1)the camp that says anything of "color" is taboo 2) the camp that says they breed for color and performance and 3) the camp I belong to, the one that says to each his own as long as everyone is enjoying this hobby and keeping it alive.
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fhtfire
1320 posts
May 07, 2008
9:15 PM
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Again...the roll does not dictate the breed..that is a true statement....the Standard dictates the proper roll for the breed. If I have a stiff or a roll down they are the Breed Birmingham Roller......no matter what....the standard is what is percieved as a birmingham roller..or what makes it a special breed......you can have a crappy specemin in any breed..that is why they are standards...no matter what the bird, dog, cat, horse or whatever...if they are pure..regardless if they meet the standard..they are of that breed...the standard is what makes it good enough to breed from....a crappy quarter horse that hates to run....is still a quarterhorse..because it does not meet the standard of the breed it is just a crappy quarter horse..just like a stiff is a crappy birmingham roller....the breed is blood...the standard is what the breed is measured by...gosh..this is not rocket science...LOL....a lab that will not get a duck or hates water is still a lab...regardless if it meets the standard...the standard is what the breed is measured by...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
634 posts
May 07, 2008
9:18 PM
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thanks Paul
thats as clear as it can be ... If anyone doesnt understand.. then theres is nothing that will change thier minds.
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fhtfire
1321 posts
May 07, 2008
9:20 PM
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I have to differ with that. The roll as stated by Pensom dictates the breed. Without the roll you have no breed. You just have a pigeon.
WRONG---if there is no roll you have a birmingham roller that does not roll or meet the standards of the BREED....you have the breed no matter what...again...if I have a lab that will not fetch...is scared of water....and has a short tail......it is not just a dog...it is a poor excuse for a lab..but no matter what..it is still a lab....so again..without the roll if you have a stiff birmingham roller.....not just a pigeon....every pigeon breed is just a pigeon..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Is it me or am I just beating my head against a wall....lol
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Santandercol
2446 posts
May 07, 2008
9:37 PM
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Don't have the energy or inclination to even read all this about colours and pure BRs.Sounds like a Monty Python skit to me.
Tony,I think you are just trying to keep ahead of me in posts.LOL.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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smoke747
1057 posts
May 07, 2008
10:49 PM
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See now we are discussing. The new people don't want here this crap , they want to learn.
thanks katyroller, fire,azpigeonman, and tony
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 10:50 PM
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MILO
993 posts
May 07, 2008
11:31 PM
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Great point Keith.
So, what does the new fancier want to hear about?
Also, how do you keep the veterans interested, and returning to Tony's site.
Just wondering.
c
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smoke747
1070 posts
May 08, 2008
12:06 AM
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The new guys want to learn by hearing others success and failiers and taking advice that best fits them. The experienced guys can have friendly debates on any subject in regards to the breeding, flying, culling, cultivating the birmingham roller or crossed rollers as long there are no direct attacks on any individual/s as to why or how they work or not work their program.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 12:15 AM
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sippi
226 posts
May 08, 2008
8:01 AM
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Now I know that ice, toy stencil, and pencil have not been in the Birmingham roller for any period of time so we will concede that those colors dont count. But see if you can recognize this quote. The bold print is mine.
"Among the many colors and shades of colors we have the self or whole colors, which means one color without any other interspersing color. We have them in blue check, red check, blue and black, the blues always carry a darker blue bar, BROWN, YELLOW, CREAM, in checker and plain ....... and a HOST OF OTHER COLORS."
"there is an extensive range of spangles and mottles IN ALL COLORS."
"We have grizzles in ALL COLORS"
"Tortiose shell is a most attractive color scheme, and strangely enough, a most dominant contributor towards producing high class birds. They are usually made up of dark blue, BRONZE, and white............. By all means let us maintain a variety of color.
Seems to me the "purist" have advanced a line of thought that suits them and not the supposed teachings of the Great Master, of whom I was quoting, W.H. Pensom himself. I have read it written over and over that yellow and brown werent "pure Birmingham colors". This should put that idea to rest. But now I dont have any rare colors showing in my birds at all now that I found bronze. Everyone in this debate that hasnt read the above referenced material should drop out and listen and learn instead of being sheep and led around by the flock. I have read this several times and came across it while hunting the origin of brown. This destroys your contention Tony that only ash red and blue series are the real colors.
The actual article I was hunting when I came across this again was the re-introduction of Oriental roller into the breed in the mid 1950's. I will find it again.
These quotes are from "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" pages 59-64. And yes I fly Birmingham Rollers.
Sippi
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fhtfire
1322 posts
May 08, 2008
8:14 AM
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I love colored birds myself...the ones that are on the norm....I have mottles in my loft, baldies, torts and grizzles...actually Chuck Roe and Ken Firl had both made comments about my "colorful" kit....so don't think that just because you are a purist....my loft is not a bunch of blue checks and blue bars and blacks....one of my best birds is lavender...oh and a blue bar..lol....so basically what I am saying is that as a purist it has nothing to do with color itself...it is that crossing in other breeds for color and not performance...I would feel the same way if breeders were crossing in other breeds for any reason....it is not about a colorful pigeon...I myself like to look at a colorful pigeon.....
I just find it funny...that I remember a couple years ago when someone asked if they could cross in a parlor roller to get more roll...and everyone...said DO NOT CROSS IN SOMETHING ELSE>..why mess up what is already there...use selective breeding and never breed unless it is for the roll........and some of those guy yapping were some of the old colored guys....and I am like...they do the same thing...but for a different reason...anyway....just thought it was funny....if I had more time ...I would try and find the post...but just goes to show you....everyone is hung up just becuase of the color..lOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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sippi
228 posts
May 08, 2008
8:33 AM
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Parlor roller has already been crossed into the "pure" lines. I will find that one also. It was by one of the old timers that made the admission years after it had been done. Believe I dont advocate crossing. But James Turner found the colors he had in the Birmingham breed and intensified them not crossed them. I have another article on genetics and the study of the roll and what happens when it is crossed with a non flying breed but dont want to hunt it today.
Basically when a cross between a nonrolling breed and a rolling breed is made the RO gene is immediately lost.
sippi
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Ballrollers
1194 posts
May 08, 2008
8:35 AM
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Tony,
Are you saying it is easy to breed any performance roller?
Are you saying breeding a performance BR is easier?
Are you saying breeding performance from a color bird is any different that from a BR? Can you see any difference in a BR red ck and a indigo red ck? Both phenotypes are the same and the performance is the same...If both aren't BR's , What are they?
100 years ago someone had to breed spread, grizzle, RR, into the mix to get the performance started. Or did these colors/factors just go along for the ride cause they were in the other breeds already? We kow for a fact that that is not completely true. We are not sure of what or how they proceeded with the early developmental stages of the Roller but we do know the guys in Birmingham England did something right. But did they care about colors? Did they keep clear and concise records? Did they have the genetic knowledge to correctly identify all the colors and factors found in their birds? Do natural mutations occur in pigeons?
So where do we draw the line for purity? Before or after 1900 when the grizzle was added through tippler crosses? Before or after the 1930s when indigo and dominant opal was added? Before or after the indigo mutation was discovered in rollers in 1934?
If a bird performs to the standard set by the BR clubs, WC, etc. What would you call it? A performance roller or a BR? (I find no club that currently advocates a color standard.) NONE! As long as we continue to suggest to men that the study of genetics has no place in the Roller fancy, we will continue to have guys not knowing a rare color from a common color. Soooo, kinda sounds like a mute point to me.
How about RPDC restrict its members to only having roller pigeons of a certain color? Or a certain strain proven by its pedigree? Think that would increase your bottom line? Lead to a more uniform type of costumer? Help guys breed better rollers? Increase membership in the NBRC or more flyers in the WC? On the other hand, how would it help support the sport if we had NO controversy over what a man called his birds IF they performed to the standard, looked like the BR but a few brave souls happen to have a few birds with rare colors? Would it help if we burned men at the stake that called a opal factor 40 foot spinner "H" type, a BR? Who would it help? It wouldn't help much, or somebody would already have a color standard in place and there is none. The NBRC has watched roller clubs come and go for over 4 decades without any color standard and I bet it "COULD" do quite well for the next 40 years, if the feds and the hawks let us. EGO? Would it help egos? Would it help men who look for reasons to say " My birds are better than your birds"? ABSOLUTELY! Yes it would. It would help these poor creatures who must have something to bitch about. I think we have solved the riddle of why.
Next is who cares? Well, I think we all know that one. HEH HEH HEH
Cliff
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glenn
115 posts
May 08, 2008
8:40 AM
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Hello:
I guess I will go up to Scott's house & borrow his Rose Colored Glases, pick up some hip waders so I can wade thru the BullShit....You know this reminds me of the pigeon wars in the seventies...Dual Purpose I think it was call....intresting....Glenn
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 8:40 AM
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MILO
998 posts
May 08, 2008
8:47 AM
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Well since Cliff came back, guess I will.
Tony, you get the stake, I'll get the matches.
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2462 posts
May 08, 2008
9:03 AM
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Hey Cliff, there you go getting all hyperbolic again. LOL Relax, man. I am your friend...
Let us use some deductive logic and common sense to come to some reasonable hypothesis that most serious persons can agree to.
In order to establish the breed and so forth, we should have a historic start and a stop time if that can be ascertained. This makes sense to me.
What earliest date would you like to start with and why do you think it would have the widest support? Let's talk about it.
Then we can work through more later...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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sippi
229 posts
May 08, 2008
9:04 AM
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I went back and read this thread over and seems I got off course a little. I feel like debating today so I will address all your questions that you posed in the beginning of the thread.
1. "I think some others hold the position that over time, that breeding these type of color rollers won't hold up in the same manner as a well-bred family of Birmingham Rollers meeting the breed standard would, in the loft of an average roller fancier."
I hate to sound uppity but I think that breeding any type roller family wont hold up in the loft of an average roller fancier over time. If they would there would not be so many switching families or trying to obtain certain families. Animal Husbandry is an art, as well as a science. If it wasnt there would be thousands of families out there instead of hundreds.
2. "I would agree that the evidence suggest that there are a few exceptionally skilled color roller breeders who HAVE had success with the color roller varieties."
I think the evidence more that "suggests" this to be true. It is a proven fact that there are roller fanciers out there that have had success with color roller varieties. The facts are recorded on the score sheets.
3. "But the question I guess I have is this: was/is the success more due to their special abilities or rather the ability of the bird to easily pass on its rolling and color attributes to its offspring?"
From my experience with the family I would have to say both. The birds do seem to be quite prepotent. I have four pairs together that I have only seen three of the eight birds fly and all seem to be producing a fair number of acceptable offspring. Some are producing a few above average offspring and one pair which hasnt been flown has produced exceptional offspring. The true test will come when I switch mates to see who is and who isnt. Also the cream hasnt risen to the top yet becuase I havent flown this years offspring long enough for proper evaluation.
4. "If the answer was "both", then the average roller fancier might very well have problems holding the strain together as he does not have the skills required as that of a Turner."
There is no comtemporary to James Turner. There may be some
one out there that is that remains unheralded by choice or neglect. If the average fancier puts color ahead of the roll any family will fall apart. I do not mean to be facetious but the average roller fancier does not have an understanding of color genetics well enough to balance the two. I think maintaining the roll is tough enough for us average roller fanciers without trying to balance the color aspect.
That said there are factors that are imbedded that will maintain themselves. Indigo, spread, and a few others. I also contend that the time honored practice of breeding hard and soft colors together will serve to maintain many of the "color" factors as a lot of them are considered "soft".
5."It the answer is the roller, then why have some of the few experienced roller breeders I have spoken with over the telephone admit that it is difficult to maintain the roll?"
I do not know who the "experienced roller breeders" you spoke to are. Therefore I will not speculate as to why they say this. I will try to stick to facts, hypothesis, and theory. I do believe it is diffucult to maintain both the roll and color. I dont even try. I dont want to try. I am after the roll and just happen to like the family I have chosen which just happens to not fit someones idea of the "proper" colors.
Any intelligent responses will be addressed. Any spawned by bias or ignorance will be ignored. I like intelligent debates.
sippi
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 6:10 PM
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Ballrollers
1196 posts
May 08, 2008
9:06 AM
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No comparison, glen.......the show roller was diametrically opposed to everything that a birmingham roller is by definition. This family REPRESENTS everything that a Birmingham Roller is by definition......unlike many families of supposedly "pure" BR out there...
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1197 posts
May 08, 2008
9:12 AM
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Tony,
Don't worry, I'm relaxed. Hehehehe.
I'm not sure we can use a time line because of the poor records and the obscurity of the history of the birds.....and we can't use blood unless we have a genetic code...and then pedigrees are a waste of time. As I said before, do we just take somebody's word for it? You know as well as I that the only person whose methods that we can REALLY account for is us, ourselves! This will take some thought.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1198 posts
May 08, 2008
9:45 AM
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OK Guys,
I can appreciate your concerns about the continuing potential for pollution of the breed through breed out-crossing; as weel as and your concerns about keeping the breed from going the route of the show roller.....again. Basically, I agree with that effort. Just for the record, as I have said before, I have never done it and I don't recommend it as a practice.
Just brainstorming, here......
This age old color debate has several interesting points of view from which we discuss the issue:
NON Color.....Color birds that don't roll will pollute the BR gene pool.
Pro Color....Pedigree PURE BR that don't perform will also weaken and dilute the gene pool.
NON Color... They are crossbred mongrels.
Pro Color... All BR are Crossbred mongrels.
Non Color.... As of such and such a date the BR is now set in stone.
Pro Color...Where is the timeline to be drawn? The colors, type and performance of the breed have been evolving for a century or two.
Non Color.... Only this color or that color can be a pure BR.
Pro Color... A large majority of Rare colors go unseen or mis-identified.
Conclusions:
There is no written standard for the breed BR.
There is no genetic code or DNA test that will identify the BR.
The only way to identify a true BR is in the air.
A true BR has only so many tail feathers.
A true BR will have a certain look, type, and carriage which is variable within limits.
Many men get swindled into buying Birds based on feather color or pedigree alone, called BR, that will not perform to standard.
The areas of controversy do the fancy more harm than good.
Possible solution:
It seems to me that much of this argument avoided if we could accept a better type of specific nomenclatures.
It has been proven in the air, that Color has nothing to do with performance.
There are written standards in most all BR fly organizations that only address performance.
There are no (NO) color standards in place at this time.
Example:
Birmingham Roller Breed
KGB Family (?)
Scott Campbell variety
Birmingham Roller Breed
Turner Family
Cliff Ball variety.
If this could be discussed and agreed upon, we could find other areas to argue about. But we could all fly under the same standard, same fly rules, same club affiliation.
(I can see it now, " I have BR with all the colors of the rainbow."
Scott: "Yeah but they are from that mongrel family of Turner birds."
Cliff: "Yes , they are Scott but would you care to compare fly records from the men who compete with the Turner family?"
Scott: "NO not really but both families win their share. I hate them mongrels birds but that is just my honest opinion."
Cliff: "Well, I got to go fly birds, see ya!")
If all birds were referred to in this way , more information would have to get out, about the background on the family of birds. The new guys would have more information than they do now... Knowledge is power. The importance would fall from the un-enforceable, un-seen, broad description of a Birmingham Roller to the very specific back ground of the birds we are working with. Why would this not better than what we have now? Sure, it has its draw backs to some, but it is a place to start. Do we want to identify performance "strains"? Do we want others to be happy with the performance in their birds? Lets find a way to distinguish between non-performing BRs and the real deal True Birmingham Rollers......performance. The rest doesn't really matter, in my book, because none of it can be proven or verified. So it is nothing but one man's opinion vs. another's.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 11:29 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2464 posts
May 08, 2008
10:13 AM
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Hey Cliff, I like you because you are intellectually honest. You gained even more respect from me by requiring some more time to think it through. You're a Good Man Charlie Brown! ;-)
Look, as for dates or other minutia, these can be decided upon by reasonable people in order set an "officially recognized date" as to when the breed was established.
I think that the further back the time, probably closer to the "real thing"?
Once you set a date, then determine what were the color factors at that time. Once completed, find current specimens that can "best" be traced back to these and then do the DNA.
Let this DNA, combined with performance traits or whatever, become the established breed.
This new updated and established for the record "breed" may very well include some of the colors and modifiers found in the Turner rollers and other families.
Too soon to say? Maybe...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
483 posts
May 08, 2008
10:38 AM
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(Cliff: Yes , they are Scott but would you care to compare fly records from the men who compete with the Turner family?)
Cliff who is only flying and winning with kits of straight Turners ? just curious as I don't know of any ,and yet you keep giving Turner the credit.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 12:00 PM
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Ballrollers
1199 posts
May 08, 2008
12:03 PM
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Scott,
That is about as valid a question as asking how many guys are winning with straight Higgins, or straight Oulette, or straight Hendersons, or straight Henry Cook birds, or straight Danny Horner birds, or anyone else that you want to name. LOL! A better question would be, "How many guys are winning with the Turner (HIggins, Oulette, Cook, Hendersons, Horner) family as the core of their breeding and competition program?" Most guys that I know accross the country have a core family...and then a line of an outcross family or two in their search for optimum performance. Some have merged two main families. That, in no way, minimizes the quality of the core family, or any of those being used...whichever one you choose. It merely acknowledges the fact that no family is perfect.
That said, I have listed the guys and their National and World Cup titles many times for you, so I won't repeat it again for you to ignore. Some of those are exclusively Turner family...some are 7/8ths....some are 15/16ths......as a whole for the entire loft...and then individual birds may be 50/50......3/4.......7/8 etc. It would be a very interesting study to analyze the winners of the NBRC and World Cup and the families that comprised their teams. The problem, again, is that few lofts are exclusively one family. I do not expect that the Turners would dominate the entire spectrum...but I do expect that we would see they have held their own against any other family of rollers, including the best of them, especially in the last five years.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 12:04 PM
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Ballrollers
1202 posts
May 08, 2008
12:34 PM
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Sippi,
That was an outstanding post! I suggest that everyone read it and digest the information, because it applies to any family and any man who has developed a family of Birmingham Rollers. Nice work, Paul.
Cliff
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Velo99
1706 posts
May 08, 2008
3:34 PM
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Old Dutch Tumbler:
Muffs: shanks with heavily feathered wide round muffs, covered with gradually shorter growing feathers tapering toward the knee joints; feathers overlapping regularly without gaps or long, misplaced feathers sticking out.
Color:
Unicolored - White, black, intense red and yellow; black barred blue with black barred tail; silver blue with dark wing and tail bars; grey-blue with regularly speckled head and neck; yellow silver with colored wing and tail bars.
Tigered - Unicolored over the whole body; wings show alternating small white and colored feathers. Occurs in black, red, and yellow.
Whiteshield - Entirely unicolored with the exception of the wing shields which must be pure white, exactly limited on all sides. Occurs in black, red, and yellow.
Whiteflight - Entirely unicolored except for seven to ten primary flights which should be pure white. Occurs in black, red, yellow, silver-blue and grey-blue.
Whitetail - Entirely unicolored except for twelve tail feathers which must be pure white. Upper and lower tail coverts are completely colored. Occurs in all colors and patterns.
Whiteflight-Whitetail - Here is a combination of seven to ten primary flights with a pure white tail inclusive upper and lower coverts which must be clean-cut from the body.
Magpie - Head is pure white as well as a large part of the front neck and occiput. This oval-shaped bib pattern must extend from 2 1/2" to 3" under the beak, exactly limited on right and left. Small round spot on top of skull; colored badge (moustache) of 1/2" long and 3/4" wide grows slightly downward at each side of beak. Spots and badges are closely and as uniformly as possible limited. Breast is full colored, reaching almost as far as the thighs; colored tail; abdomen, back, rump, hocks, and muffs are pure white. Occurs in black, red, yellow, blue, and dun.
FOR:
All colors are acceptable, they should be as intense as possible. Almonds and Grizzles are to be considered as solid colored birds. Blue series, T-pattern, Checkers, Bars or Barless should be considered in the same class. The same for the Ash Red and Brown series. White patterned birds, if allowed, should be considered as AOC (Any Other Combination) and not eligible for Champion status. AOC would be any color and White (Baldhead, Badge, Beard, Whiteside, Saddle, Monk, Priest, Gazzie or any other known combination.)
I am not sure of the other tumbler breed. It seems to me any of these colors,modifiers and factors wold be acctepable
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Ty Coleman
257 posts
May 08, 2008
4:32 PM
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Kenny i sure wish that better records were kept in the origon of the breed that way we would know for sure and not have to guess on what the original birds were that made this breed it would put an end to this debate.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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bertie
231 posts
May 08, 2008
5:34 PM
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Well Tony, I hate to say I told you so. Same ole thing over and over with color against non color. Same people defending colors same people against them.
Some very good arguments for both sides.
Bert
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Ty Coleman
258 posts
May 08, 2008
5:39 PM
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what happend Scott you fart? lol i havnt posted in a while you doing good?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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azpigeonman
2 posts
May 08, 2008
6:00 PM
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I am sure not going to waste my time reposting the same information over and over but I will post this.
Define "pure" roller.. dollars to donuts someone is going to list families... nope.. wrong
Rolling in pigeons is a genetic trait and something that has to be bred for or it will disappear slowly.
This is a fact.
Fact two, someone originally started somewhere to develop the first rollers.
Another fact... differing breeds were used to develop Birmingham rollers.. this is documented in many ways in many new and very old publications.
side note;
I was in a racing homer club in the late 70's and won a couple local small races, a fellow fancier aiming to "help" me dropped by my house to see what I was doing. He found I had a barn pigeon hen on a racer cock bird, the only pair of racers I had and proceeded to get me booted from the club because I wasn't raising and racing pure racers...
I beat his "pure" racers in two races by the way...
I was booted because of discrimination.
Anyone here know that the English guys call our rollers here in the states "American Rollers"? Huh?
I know this as my grandfather flys rollers in Yorkshire England... He laughs at me for calling my birds Birmingham Rollers.. again, an opinion, his of course..
This high and mighty purebred BS is just that. ALL pigeons trace back to the Rock Dove guys...
Put 'em up and if they roll why aren't they rollers????
Glen, your right... dual purpose BS lead to show rollers and preforming rollers... the show guys adamantly believe their pigeons are Birmingham's.. they cant even fly right let alone roll. Are they Birmingham's, rollers, even tumblers if they don't perform????
The breed "Birmingham Roller" is a performance breed and the standard is focused around performance NOT bloodline not type.
OK, I've said more than most want to hear...
By the way...
Anyone here compete in the world cup or any local flys????
or are we all here bench racers??? LOL
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"The" AZpigeonman
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sippi
230 posts
May 08, 2008
6:24 PM
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Pensom was a very wise man especially in his day. He had great foresight to not put a color standard forth for the Birmingham roller. That would have been the beginning of the end for the breed and would have more than likely led to the formation of the American roller. To me that would be a more likely name. But too much is at stake to try and change the name now. The breed would not have endured without the standard only.
JMHO
sippi
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2473 posts
May 08, 2008
6:42 PM
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Hey Bertie, the discussion is not done yet...some of us are trying to work some things out, perhaps its over your head like settling rollers?! LOL Just joking with you man!
These things take time to hash through, but I would say some middle ground can be established and we can move forward some more.
However, saying that, I prefer to see posts that actually have something to contribute to the thread. I told ya so's are for armchair quarterbacks.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Velo99
1708 posts
May 08, 2008
7:39 PM
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Purists
Color guys<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Newbie?>>>?>>?>>>>>>>>>><<<><><><>><><>?><
<<<<>>>>???>>><>?>>>>>>>>>>
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 7:40 PM
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George R.
651 posts
May 08, 2008
9:39 PM
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az pigeonman
accordindg to your post , there is no such animal that is a pure breed then ... of course most animals were created by mixing Bloodlines, but after they were refined and a standard was reached thats when Horses, dogs, pigeons, snakes, fish , and Birds, become what most people regard as a breed or type.
And as far as competing I fly in any and all Fly's that allow me to enter.
If you beat a Guy with a barn pigeon then consider yourself lucky.. you may want to try your luck in the Biggest pigeon race in the world THE LAS VEGAS CLASSIC.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 9:43 PM
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Velo99
1710 posts
May 09, 2008
5:11 AM
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Cliff,
Not being to well versed in genetics would you please review the two breeds I posted the color standard for. With this information draw some conclusion(s) as to what colors are "real" colors of the BR?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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