ezeedad
598 posts
Jun 02, 2008
11:03 AM
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There has been so much talk on this site about having the "True Birmingham Roller". But why is it that when the twizzle is mentioned, a consensus seems to agree that "we have moved on"... Or "the standard has been changed".
So, what has happened to that "polished individual who is capable of rotating in plate-like fashion at the end of a first class spin at very high speed"
According to Pensom, the champion would combine first class spins, twizzling as well as mad tumbling. He said, "OF ALL THE FAMOUS BREEDERS I KNEW, I DID NOT DISCOVER ONE WHO DID NOT MATE HIS BIRDS TO MEET THAT IDEAL"
I therefore believe, that if this kind of bird no longer exists, there is no such thing as a "True Birmingham Roller"
Paul Gomez
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Ballrollers
1326 posts
Jun 02, 2008
11:45 AM
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Paul,
It is basically an arbitrary decision as to what constitutes better quality. The twizzle is really a fast roller's effort to stop rolling....his failure to just pop out, if you will.....showing a little less character, control, and balance. So it was decided that a roller with the ability to pop out of the roll is superior, and that's what we should be breeding for. Pensom may have had his own reasons for appreciating the twizzle...but I have never seen them in print.
Cliff
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J_Star
1609 posts
Jun 02, 2008
11:51 AM
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So the Champion in Bill's eyes is not a champ in ours. What gives!!
Jay
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1261 posts
Jun 02, 2008
12:17 PM
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Jay.My opinion is that the BR has progressed since Pensom's time to where it is today.And will continue to Progress in the next 50 years.Might only be subtle changes but things do and will change with each generation of people.David
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J_Star
1610 posts
Jun 02, 2008
12:29 PM
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I believe the same Dave. Which leads me to believe that some of Pensom writings are no longer valid in today’s sport. The same thing as he changed his mind as he progressed, we have changed as we progressed. Therefore, we should not use Pensom’s writing as gospel.
Jay
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ezeedad
599 posts
Jun 02, 2008
12:31 PM
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Cliff,
I disagree. The twizzle is a distinct type of performance. A bird can go directly into the twizzle. True, though, I have seen rollers do different kinds of gyrations at the end of a roll. But who is to say that they were done in an effort to come out of the roll?
The changes to the breed have come as a result of efforts to score high in competitions, not necessarily to make a superior bird. I would even say that in view of what Pensom said, today's rollers are more limited in their talents. We have changed a virtuoso into a one trick pony.
Paul G
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Scott
704 posts
Jun 02, 2008
12:58 PM
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Unless they are at an unsafe ht. you can keep the twizzle, although I think this is another one mis- read as he goes into detail many times over the years of birds going into the spin and out of it.
Cliff nailed what the twizzle is , it is a fault coming out of the roll if at a good ht., at unsafe ht. it is control,nothing more nothing less.
If you want to see the twizzle, tumble ext. and the end of the roll check out my A team when at a un safe ht.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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BA Rollers
18 posts
Jun 02, 2008
1:00 PM
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I'd very much prefer a kit of one trick ponies that nut it up and rain down like the bottom fell out over rollers that can do different acrobatics in the air such as twizzling at the end.
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4nkroLLs
56 posts
Jun 02, 2008
1:05 PM
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I've heard of the twizzle my friends has a bird that rolls and ends with a twizzle i like it but he thinks its sloppy idk ...
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D.T.R.C
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ezeedad
601 posts
Jun 02, 2008
1:27 PM
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BA,
I think that when you think in terms of judging a whole kit, having birds do different things it could look like chaos. Is it because it's just your personal preference, or because you would be penalized by not having that kind of bird scored?
There is nothing that I like better than seeing a deep spinning bird. too. But truthfully, I've never seen a bird twizzle the way Pensom described it. I think to me it would be an added feature. I'm not talking about plate rolling or switching wings.. but I would guess that those were probably part of the original bag of tricks.
Gomez
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ezeedad
602 posts
Jun 02, 2008
1:34 PM
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$nkRolls,
Is the bird you saw spinning like Pensom describes? "..in plate-like fashion at thr end of a first class spin at very high speed"..? and. "They describe their movements without any apparent loss of altitude.."..?
Pensom said that he had seen very few of them...
Paul G
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ezeedad
603 posts
Jun 02, 2008
1:47 PM
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Scott,
I know that my birds perform differently when they are low... It's like the altimeter light flashes red.. their style changes.. (the smart ones). But still... It's there in plain English... "Of all the famous breeders I knew, I did not discover one who did not mate his birds to meet that ideal."..pg15
So... I can only conclude that all the famous breeders that Pensom knew thought it was best to have birds that twizzle. If someone can show some documentation of where he contradicts this statement, I would like to see it. I'm feeling guilty anyways, because I've done the same as most others...eliminating the ones that switch wings...just going for that straight speed...like a fanatic..!!
Gomez
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birdman
590 posts
Jun 02, 2008
2:12 PM
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Could it be that the twizzle was thought as a safer way of stopping/slowing the bird before it crashed into a chimney or other structure?
Russ
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1262 posts
Jun 02, 2008
2:36 PM
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Myself I like the new version. Straight and fast.I have never seen a twizzle like Pensom described.If they are straight and fast for 25 feet they are close enough to a Champion for me.LOL.David
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JMUrbon
484 posts
Jun 02, 2008
2:45 PM
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I believe that we all as breeders have changed the BR and will continue too. I have never taken Pensoms writings as the gospel nor have I taken any other literiture out there. It all boils down to what I am looking for in a bird. I am not breeding these birds for Bill Pensom so therefor the standard that I breed for is my own standard.
I watched kits of birds 30 years ago that would definately roll but very seldom and there were alot more 100-200 foot rollers but none of them that I remember had the speed, Style or the heart of the birds that I see these days. That too me is improvement and not the opposite. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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155
497 posts
Jun 02, 2008
2:49 PM
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JMUrbon
good post
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ezeedad
604 posts
Jun 02, 2008
3:21 PM
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Joe,
I agree that we have changed the BR as you do.
As far as Pensom's writings, they have been my main source of information as they are a direct link with the traditions of the breed, written by one brought up in the area of their origin. He would not put that statement out there and subject himself to the ridicule of other breeders if it were not true. Of course we are all free to interpret the standard as we see fit, but in changing the breed are we making a new breed?
I saw speed equal to today's birds in several that I owned in the 60s and 70s. The style actually was better back then. I had many that showed the hole. Heart....?? Hmmm... That's a new one.. but I like it..!!
But I guess it all comes down to what we as individuals have seen then as well as now.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 5:49 PM
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Scott
705 posts
Jun 02, 2008
3:30 PM
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I don't want no stinken twizzle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
606 posts
Jun 02, 2008
3:45 PM
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Scott,
Say what you really mean..!! LOL..
So I guess we gotta call 'em US Rollers...
Paul G
Or maybe North American Rollers..??
How abour Altered Birminghams..??
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 3:48 PM
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ezeedad
607 posts
Jun 02, 2008
3:58 PM
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George,
Pensom said all the famous breeders bred for it... Guess you know better than him...
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George R.
739 posts
Jun 02, 2008
4:12 PM
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Paul
I dont believe everything that people write .. do you ?
Most people forget that anyone can pick up a pen and start writing .. does it mean that everything they write is TRUE ?
Documentation is important , but you have to remember that it is still written by Humans , and Humans make mistakes.
When a person reads something it's up to them to take what they can from it and then compare it to the REAL World .
Then they can decide if they want to believe everything they read..
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COYOTE33
115 posts
Jun 02, 2008
4:14 PM
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Paul, i agree with you when you said it had to be something
about a twizzler or else pensom would not have put it in his book. i'm not trying to breed this type of bird but if i saw it, i would look at it for what it is.The problem with some of these guys is they don't get excited like we did back in the early 70's when we heard PRC, infact they are a new breed in themselves, when it comes to this hobby. Ford couldnt keep the patent on cars thats why we have hynundai's today. like one guy said everybody has their standard, i guess thats the way it is!
coyote
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 4:17 PM
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JMUrbon
485 posts
Jun 02, 2008
4:17 PM
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Paul I give credit to Mr Pensom for what he did for the breed but that doesnt mean I have to do what he says or fail. I have bred for what I want and have no regrets for the family I have. They work well for me and thats all that is important to me. As for the " Heart". what I mean by that is I seen alot of really deep birds that could actually hold it for 1-200 feet but seldom had the " Heart" to return back to the group after 1 or 2 times. I have no doubt that there were some great birds back then but I can only speak on personal experience.
I also think you will find that most breeders that have had rollers for any length of time would like nothing better than to have the depth that you speak of but getting a kit of them is difficult if not impossible and so we will all just have to settle for the few great ones we do get. The last kit I built for the WC I had at least 14 birds that would hit 30 feet and it took me 5 years to build that kit. Many others have done the same only to watch the roller gods take them in one bad overfly. Its just plain difficult to build and maintain a great holdover kit. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Oldfart
694 posts
Jun 02, 2008
5:56 PM
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Scott, have you tried the strawberry, or the licorice, oh but wait that's confection, not pigeon!
Thom, ;-))
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nicksiders
2812 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:01 PM
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Twizzling is ugly. That opinion may be something I have learned over the years via pressure from my peers, but never the less it is my opinion.
Nick
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ezeedad
608 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:02 PM
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George,
Certainly you don't have to believe it if you haven't seen it. But how could you imagine that someone the status of Bill Pensom could make a mistake in saying what he said?
I have also talked to pepole who have been in the hobby for years, but say that there is no such thing as the hole...
I wonder if anyone will say that they have seen a genuine twizzle...? Actually, Scott said his twizzle when they are low.. in an effort to put on the brakes, I guess..
Paul G
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ezeedad
609 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:17 PM
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Coyote,
I think that most of us, myself included, have taken the low road when it comes to breeding these birds and when it comes to defining our own personal standards. That's why I have so much respect for the few breeders who actually brought the original BR into existence.
Pensom set such a high mark for us to aim at, that just about no one will be able to hit it. So we have adjusted the standard to bring it to an attainable level. But we shouldn't mislead ourselves by saying that we have improved the breed.
Paul
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ezeedad
610 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:31 PM
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Joe,
It is really hard to take what Pensom said seriously. It just seems too incredible..!! I don't think that we have failed in producing today's BR, but I don't think we have improved it either... Maybe we can just say that we've changed it. After all, there is a physical limit to the performance of a bird. If you approach that limit and reach that limit, you have done about as good as is possible.
I would say that your WC team must have been very close to the limit.. I assume the quality was there...
Paul G
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ezeedad
611 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:37 PM
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Nick,
You said "Twizzling is ugly. That opinion may be something I have learned over the years via pressure from my peers, but never the less it is my opinion."
I had the same pressures. But I think that the term was misapplied to include floppers, plate rollers and switching wings.. Have you seen the twizzle that Pensom described?
Thom.... WHAT YOU TALKIN 'BOUT, FART..??!!
Gomez
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Ballrollers
1327 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:49 PM
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Paul G
I have no doubt that the rules of competition have had their effect on what the flyers breed for. It may very well be a one-trick-pony but it is not an easy trick by any means. We may have, in our desire to "CREATE" a better Birmingham roller, reduced its various aerial maneuvers. But if "WE" are guilty, all the others world wide are also guilty. For all of WHP's wisdom and understanding of these birds, in the end, he only gave us his best opinion. If we read all of WHP writings, we should see his opinions change once or twice during his time with these birds, as he gained more experience with them. It is just a natural progression and not to be taken as a slam. History will be our judge, as performance is the name of the game.
Cliff
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sippi
302 posts
Jun 02, 2008
7:11 PM
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Ezeedad the twizzle is alive and well. Pensom says twizzle and then describes a plate roll/spin. The Twizzle is in the repetoire of Orientals, Galati rollers, and Fireballs. I personally like to see a bird do a good plate spin. The Galati's are exceptionally graceful at doing this after three ten to fifteen foot rolls with a hitch between each one. I dont want to see my Birms do it. Simply because they wont be scored and no other reason. A lot of the Orientals do it after a deep roll with extreme velocity. I think they do to decelerate from the spin. A lot of them will roll with incredible speed in an axle position so all they have to do to stop is start the twizzle. I doubt anyone that has only flown comp BR's has ever seen a good twizzle.
Sippi
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Scott
706 posts
Jun 02, 2008
7:18 PM
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(But if "WE" are guilty, all the others world wide are also guilty.)
Good one Cliff !!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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4nkroLLs
57 posts
Jun 02, 2008
9:23 PM
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ezeedad the twizzling bird i seen twirls like a spinning plate to the side kinda like a kartwheel like if the bird is learning how to roll but enjoys twisting
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D.T.R.C
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ezeedad
612 posts
Jun 02, 2008
10:22 PM
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Sippi,
Very good information... about the skills of the different breeds. It makes me think that the twizzling must have come from the Oriental ancestors of the BR. It's interesting to see how certain types of performance can vary among the different breeds.
Scott,
Probably the effect of competition has been what has changed the bird worldwide. Guess there's no going back to the original BR.
Paul G
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ezeedad
613 posts
Jun 02, 2008
10:32 PM
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Cliff,
I think you have a very fair and unbiased view of things. The fact that Pensom himself changed is mind about things is true. But how could he change his mind about what all the great roller breeders considered as the ideal?
The book was published in 1958.
Paul G
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Santandercol
2579 posts
Jun 02, 2008
10:33 PM
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I like twizzle it ain't ugly that's why I have the Doneks too you get all kinds of stunts the Birmies don't do.I like every thing my birds do in the air.Variety is the spice of life!!!
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Ballrollers
1328 posts
Jun 03, 2008
6:51 AM
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Paul G
Not knowing what WHP was talking about, it is a puzzlement that I have no answer for, other than WHP did like it but the majority of other rollermen ....not so much. Today, any activity, other than to head directly back to the kit, after the end of the spin, is frowned upon. Think about this. The judge would have to judge the spin, estimate average depth and quality and count the birds. THEN judge the Twizzle, estimate the average depth and quality, count the birds that did twizzle.... and not miss the count on the next break, while judging the twizzle. :))))
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1329 posts
Jun 03, 2008
6:53 AM
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Scott,
What I meant by that statement is, does any other country besides the USA look on any other performance, other than the spin, with favor? Who else approves of the twizzle? Maybe we are wrong, if other countries wish to judge other performance than just the spin. I stand ready to be corrected.
Cliff
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JMUrbon
486 posts
Jun 03, 2008
8:18 AM
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Paul everything that we as humans breed evolves into what we as breeders presume is best. Weather Pensom would agree or disagree we as breeders have bred the BR to our liking as did he. To say that we have not improved it is a personal opinion at best. Not a bad opinion but your opinion. You obviously seen birds long befor I did and so I guess that would leave you in the position to say that but from my standpoint I strongly disagree because what I seen when I started is no were near the birds I see today. At my loft or anybody elses for that matter. I see a much better controlled bird. I see a larger concentration of good to great birds and I see much fewer roll downs. That to me is progress. I am not saying that there werent great birds with great speed and style there just werent as many of them in MY OPINION. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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ezeedad
614 posts
Jun 03, 2008
9:58 AM
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Joe,
I'll agree that today there are far less roll-downs, but also far less deep rollers. I think you are probably right about having a higher percentage of good solid spinners too.
But when it comes to the very best, and I don't want to use the "C" word... but I will...champion... I don't think it can be improved on. That ultimate bird that Pensom described is the very limit of what is possible in a roller.
I guess that's why no one tries to make them anymore.
Paul G
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sippi
304 posts
Jun 03, 2008
10:01 AM
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I agree that it would be very difficult to judge birds of varied performance under todays rules. That is why the Oriental kits only have three, five, or seven birds in the U.S. and only three in Europe. You cant judge every spin, twizzle, plate roll, dive, spiral, and roll of a large number of birds. I was just involved in tweaking the rules for judging Orientals and we tested it. Too much action to differentiate so we tweaked them to make them easier for the judge and added quality multipliers to compensate for the rest.
Sippi
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JMUrbon
490 posts
Jun 03, 2008
10:13 AM
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Paul I think that your perception of a champion and mine are different.I breed for a champion in every pairing I put together the difference that you are talking about here is that I dont/wont breed for anything that I consider a cull and I consider twizzlers a cull. If Pensoms Ideal roller would twizzle than I would disagree with him also. No disrepect just a difference of opinion. I breed for hard fast 30 feet. Do I always get that? Of course not but that is still my goal. No Twizzlers though.LOL Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 3:25 PM
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ezeedad
615 posts
Jun 03, 2008
2:51 PM
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Sippi,
Those Orientals seem like they would be amazing to watch. I can see that they might be next to impossible to judge though, especially if you are judging them as a kit.
I guess that you and Alan might be some of the few people that have seen the real thing (twizzle) in this forum.
P. Gomez
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ezeedad
616 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:18 PM
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Joe,
In reading what you say, I can see that we breed for the same thing.
Pensom was getting relly "old school" with us, I believe, and he was letting us know what the original BR was capable of doing. He probably knew that they were already becoming a thing of the past. He says as much when he says that most of them had no interest in the competitions that were gaining in popularity back in nthe 1920s.
Paul G
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smoke747
1171 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:24 PM
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Cliff your 1327 post is right on the money.
Paul of all the things that have changed world wide since the 60's, why do Birmingham rollers have to remain the same?
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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ezeedad
618 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:39 PM
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Keith,
I agree that Cliff and Joe also, are right on the money.
Things change. Thinking things through with the input of what others have said has helped me better understand both, why things have changed, as well as why Pensom wrote those things concerning the ideal.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 4:40 PM
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smoke747
1173 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:44 PM
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Paul, are you still going to get some birds up before bop season?
SMOKE747
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Keith London
ICRC
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ezeedad
619 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:54 PM
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Keith,
I'm training (first group) and weaning (second group) and breeding (next groups) right now.. Matter of fact one did something that reminded me of a twizzle...
Paul
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smoke747
1174 posts
Jun 03, 2008
4:59 PM
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Good to see you flying again Paul. Hope everything works out for you.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Scott
708 posts
Jun 03, 2008
5:50 PM
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(Scott,
What I meant by that statement is, does any other country besides the USA look on any other performance, other than the spin, with favor? )
No Cliff,of coarse not, hard roll, clean in and clean out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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