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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
BRING BACK THE TWIZZLE..!!
BRING BACK THE TWIZZLE..!!
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Steve S.
84 posts
Jun 03, 2008
6:26 PM
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As he explained it in 67,
putting on the brakes, twizzling as in shifting wings or
or shifting the roll to one wing.
Steve
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JMUrbon
494 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:23 AM
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Paul I believe that we both are breeding toward the same goal also. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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4KORNER
42 posts
Jun 25, 2008
10:04 PM
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ezeedad they say these birds are like athletes then just like keith said what hasnt changed since the 60s the ahletic ability of basketball players has changed in time it used to be most b ball players were tall look at the smaller group ogf guys today doing more than what height was offering at that time look at world records being broken in all sports today with increasing knowledge and time how can you expect things to remain the same i there was a good point made about pensom and progression just as his views changed over the years do you think after a great person passes on the knowledge to next generations fails we use his knowledge and embrace the fact he was dedicated and good at what he did in his time. you also said another key word you stated that you use his writings as gospel then brother thats good for you. keep up the good work and keep improving dont get stuck in traditionalism my friend have a great day
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Shadow
136 posts
Jun 26, 2008
6:04 AM
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My own interpation of this is,a bird twizzling when it wants,mad rolling,short rolling,long rolling,covering the whole works,when it wants,this is a top class roller,this I think is what Pensom implied when he said all famous breeders are striving for when putting their breeders together,it shows this bird is in control all the time,and can on occassions show versatility in its actions,but all the time in control,rather than a good roller who is conditioned to one type of roll ,and often you find this is the head honcho,when flying in a kit,and usually your best roller,when on song,but much more to its repotoire than just a a pre conditioned roll,more or less an all round athlete,no matter what type action it does,its done with control and because it wants to at the time,for what can be many and varied reasons,when rolling its rolls are always controllable ,no need to worry going out,coming in,nothing silly from this bird, when there is its only on its terms.
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 6:06 AM
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ezeedad
644 posts
Jun 26, 2008
1:45 PM
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Shadow,
I think you really understand what Pensom was talking about when he described that ultimate package that the original masters of the breed strove to produce.
It seems to me that the breed has changed and become much less versatile than it used to be. If there are no breeders willing to attempt to produce the original type bird that Pensom mentioned in his writings, then we will never see it.
It's the same as the hole. Many have never seen it, therefore they won't try to produce it. Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy.
Gomez
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ezeedad
645 posts
Jun 26, 2008
1:59 PM
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4Korner,
Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all. You are comparing apples with oranges. Basketball players are playing for HUGE MONEY today... that's the biggest change, the whole game has changed.. high school right on up... How do you think Wilt Chamberlain would do in today's game..?? Kareem..?? West..?? Oscar Robertson..?? They would still be great.
In track and field, we have 'em running on tartan tracks, with high tech training...and steroids..or something close as they can get away with.
The best rollers haven't improved...only changed..to a simpler form it seems.
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ezeedad
646 posts
Jun 26, 2008
2:05 PM
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Why don't we all start reading and writing..!!
There are too many people that don't get what the conversation is really about. Why?? Because they haven't been reading what it's about.
I guess they haven't read past the title..
PG
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Shadow
137 posts
Jun 26, 2008
2:10 PM
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ptlofts
Pretty difficult to do both,for any amount of time.,especially if you are gonna breed from your best.
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 2:11 PM
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joyride1
1 post
Jun 26, 2008
4:56 PM
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Interesting topic and train of conversation.
Apparently, the general consensus seems to be that we have reached the heights of our hobby. That a long set standard has been surpassed, or no longer exists, simply because we have never witnessed the feat with our own eyes. This type of thinking, my roller brethen, signals that our hobby might be "flapping" around aimlessly. [No Pun Intended]
I have had the fortune to be raised around--weened, if you will--by some of L.A.'s finest. This gave me the opportunity to see stock that could burn it up. Moreover, it seared into my brain vivid images of what I needed to accomplish while assembling my family.
Even within this cadre of "dyno" breeders there was solid disagreement on what constituted the standard of the day; however, there was never any disagreement on what certainly DID NOT make the grade.
I've heard it all, "bird so fast that it certainly could not show the hole," or "bird does not have to be fast to show the hole." My all time favorite, "did you see the hole that time, okay you must not be looking!" But, I've never heard anyone say, after a spectacular world class performance, "did that bird just twizzle, ahhh we gotta cull em'."
To me the priority is not what happens after the bird rolls [provided of course the bird rolls in high fashion], it's the speed, style, frequency and ability to get back in the kit. Of course, I do not want birds that exit the roll in the wrong direction; nor, do I want birds that come from the back of the kit and fly counter to the kit pulling them in the wrong direction. However, in my opinion, the added flavor of twizzling at the end of a GOOD performance could be looked upon as the "dotting of I's or crossing of T's."
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Pw_Rollers
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ezeedad
647 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:15 PM
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PW,
Excellent post.
You obviously understand what Pensom defined as a twizzle, and that it is a distinct high class performance, not what the word has been applied to by the uninformed.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 5:17 PM
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-mannyfresh- spins
21 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:18 PM
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in my opinion the twizzle is a good way to stop from crashing...n it also looks pretty kool to me...of coures if a bird is deep the twizzle would make it seem sloppy...in short if a bird is flyin low the twizzle would be good but if its high flying n deep i would not like a twizzle...
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-mannyfresh- spins
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Scott
820 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:38 PM
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A bird twizling at the end is a bird trying to regain control and is a stability issue and nothing else, and yes how the bird exits the roll is as important as a gymnest finish cleanly, it is all part of it.
In my little world any bird that can't exit the roll cleanly is a cull plain and simple.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 5:39 PM
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George R.
820 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:43 PM
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Scott
I agree any Birds that do twizzle are RUBBISH.....
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Scott
822 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:47 PM
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they are dog doo George, it is simply a weakness fault and poor breeding if they twizzle at the end of the roll
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
823 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:50 PM
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yes Scott the parents to the Bird(s) that Twizzle would also be on my Rader
The Novice
George
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joyride1
2 posts
Jun 26, 2008
5:54 PM
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Gomez,
Hopefully, we will be able to provide clarity on dogmatic topics such as the one at hand. I belive that clarity is reached by informed debate and dialouge--not simply because somebody says that the way it is.
Keep bringing provacative posts to the list, we all learn from them.
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Pw_Rollers
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gabe454
1080 posts
Jun 26, 2008
8:20 PM
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Here we go again!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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Shadow
139 posts
Jun 26, 2008
11:43 PM
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The antis in this debate are apparently fixated on the Twizzle,and rightly so,no one should breed twizzlers to produce yet more twizzlers,unless it floats your boat,if you go back to the post regarding athletes,my parlance would be,Pensom was implying this bird though top class in his own field.would be a multi task very capable top class athlete in any field,track,gymnastics,football,basketball,etc,but a master of the one we choose for him ie,rolling,its a rarity,and possibily why he mentioned top class flyers were always trying to produce,about as difficult as a top class athlete multi tasking,and if 95% of his efforts are top class rolls,why should it be a cull,reject,because,it does,mad rolling,twizzle,stiff wing,slow rolling,if you have got one of those you dont want,I will have it,there are not many about,I had the pleasure of owning and flying one,and now thirty tears later,those who saw this bird ROLL still talk about it,myself I saw this bird at one time or another exhibit twizzles,stiffwinging,slow rolling,mad rolling,and many more non appealing gyrations
on occassions,three of the giants of the sport Bill Barrett,Bob Brown,and John Lenihan,watched a twelve bird kit in competition one evening in which this bird was flown,and all agreed ,it was possibily the best display they had ever witnessed by a roller,I wonder now,what they might think,if they had seen some of his exploits,that I had been privy to, if I have learned anything from rollers its never blinker your outlook,or learning,and only condition your rollers.
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 11:52 PM
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pacos bill
48 posts
Jun 26, 2008
11:46 PM
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Gentlemen.
This is the true fact we have better rollers now days as far as kit birds, but I have yet to see the flying acrobatics of the new rollers match or even come close to the overall performance of a true Pensom / Birmingham Roller that we had 50 years ago, we all talk speed but look at most (most not all) of the videos of our kits the roll is not ball nor an H or donut hole but some form of tumbling in shape of a W for three turns, now I know that we have real fast birds and very frequent up to 3 time or more per minute.
I have some old school 514 stuff, but so far they lack depth and frequency, they are only rolling 5 to 20 feet and 20 feet was considered minimal 50 years ago, however to roll 1 to 2 times a minute was above average for the early birds and hardly kit worthy today.
As I see it we have the Show Rollers 3 parts Modena 2 parts old Dutch tumbler and a little roller, and I bet they are hard pushed to fly much less perform.
We have the world class spinner or kit birds and they or great.
we don’t have the good old Pensom / Birmingham Roller which would just amaze us with its acrobatic tricks and breath taking depth and speed, we need to bring back just for our enjoyment the old deep fast roller of yester year and try to breed in more frequency that is my goal twizzle and all.
(Cull out the Tumblers)
Pacos Bill Just my Old School Opinion
Last Edited by on Jun 26, 2008 11:48 PM
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pacos bill
49 posts
Jun 26, 2008
11:50 PM
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Gentlemen this is the true fact we have better rollers now days as far as kit birds, but I have yet to see the flying acrobatics of the new rollers match or even come close to the overall performance of a true Pensom or Birmingham Roller that we had 50 years ago, we all talk speed but look at most (most not all) of the videos of our kits the roll is not ball nor an H or donut hole but some form of tumbling in shape of a W for three turns, now I know that we have real fast birds and very frequent up to 3 time or more per minute.
I have some old school 514 stuff, but so far they lack depth and frequency, they are only rolling 5 to 20 feet and 20 feet was considered minimal 50 years ago, however to roll 1 to 2 times a minute was above average for the early birds and hardly kit worthy today.
As I see it we have the Show Rollers 3 parts Modena 2 parts old Dutch tumbler and a little roller, and I bet they are hard pushed to fly much less perform.
We have the world class spinner or kit birds and they or great.
we don’t have the good old Pensom or Birmingham Roller which would just amaze us with its acrobatic tricks and breath taking depth and speed, we need to bring back just for our enjoyment the old deep fast roller of yester year and try to breed in more frequency that is my goal twizzle and all .
(Cull out the tumblers)
Pacos Bill Just my Old School Opinion
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Scott
824 posts
Jun 27, 2008
1:06 AM
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Shadow,they don't twizzle on purpose trying to multi task LOL , it is nothing more than trying take control of spin while the impulse is still engaged, but you will see it in first class birds that are in control when it is at an unsafe ht.
Pecos Bill, you need to get out, there are still good birds out there and short birds and or poor style are still garbage,
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2008 1:26 AM
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Shadow
140 posts
Jun 27, 2008
2:07 AM
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Scott
See your point regarding twizzle being a saftey factor for lots of good rollers and certainily agree with this,No I think what Pensom implied regardin top class breeders trying to produce was the complete package,warts and all,namely a top class bird capable of always being in control,regarding what it was at,not just twizzling,mad rolling,stiffwinging,flick overs rapidly,many things,which are not appealing to roller men,but the onus would always be on control,with the bird in effect implying rolling is only one of my many aspects,with the rest of his repotire not appreciated by fanciers,and consequently we condition it do whats appealing to us Rolling,in top class birds,the type that Pensom,wrote that top class fanciers were trying to achive,when mating,this is the package that I think they were trying to produce,and when performing,and conditioned to do so,produceing top class rolls,which are almost always perfection,but when left somewhat to its own devices,sometimes can exhibit these traits that we as roller men are conditioned to find displeasing.Again this is only my interpetation on this,but did see all those traits,in possibily the most complete rolling pigeon I ever had the pleasure to observe.
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2008 2:10 AM
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ezeedad
648 posts
Jun 27, 2008
9:08 AM
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Shadow,
You are right on the money...every time..!! I meant to tell you that I appreciated this post too...'
Pretty difficult to do both,for any amount of time.,especially if you are gonna breed from your best."
LOL..!!
The trouble with this issue is that there are some that truely believe that they know more than Pensom knew. And yet they don't even know what a true twizzle is, but continue to misdefine it based on their own observations or what they have been told by the uninformed.
Your example of the bird that "had it all" and how it was appreciated by the top breeders must have been ignored
"There are none so blind as they that will not see.."
Gomez
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ezeedad
649 posts
Jun 27, 2008
9:14 AM
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Pacos,
Glad to see there are people around who are continuing to breed for the highest standards of the breed. There is sort of a mob mentality (or maybe I should say follower mentality) which is so focused on winning a trophy or contest, and will compromise and deny truth that was there before they even knew what a roller was.
Keep up the good work.
Gomez
Last Edited by on Jun 27, 2008 9:49 AM
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WaTtS UpP
1023 posts
Jun 27, 2008
9:16 AM
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whats up gomez aint you suppose to be at work teaching that good stuff huh ahah..lol how you been
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Watts uppp homeboy
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PR_rollers
1320 posts
Jun 27, 2008
9:48 AM
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Bill Pensom had a vision once when he said competition was going to ruin the Birmingham roller .he knew what a Champion bird was capable of doing mad tumbling ,It can tumble as many times as it wants to ,spin and Twizzle.He can do it all..deep spinning short spinning he can adjust to anything and he has heart to go back and do it again and again.--------but times have change and what the competitioners have now accomplish is a beauty all in its self. but we must not ignore what was there once and how we got here now. 'Time is all about changes.
Ralph
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ezeedad
650 posts
Jun 27, 2008
10:23 AM
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Ralph,
So was Pensom right? Has competition caused the Birmingham Roller to degenerate into less than what it was?
Degenerate:
1 a : having declined (as in nature, character, structure, or function) from an ancestral or former state b : having sunk to a condition below that which is normal to a type ; especially : having sunk to a lower and usually corrupt and vicious state c : DEGRADED 2
2 : being mathematically simpler (as by having a factor or constant equal to zero) than the typical case
I think the breed is being simplified for the sake of competition.
Let me ask you a question.... What came first?... the breed or competition? The breed was not created for competition. Competition was started in an attempt to turn rollers into a sport. So I think we can see that the breed is being changed in an attempt to win that sport.
Gomez
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Scott
825 posts
Jun 27, 2008
12:48 PM
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When Pensom made that statement he also said "under current rules" the competition rules of that time were competition "TUMBLER" rules where there were no min quality or depth standard.
As for competition making breeding simpler B.S. , I can assure you breeding twizling culls are far easier to breed,try wasting perch space on on muff,color or crest projects and see how you fare in the competition world where the "only" focus is on breeding strictly for performace where the quality and depth multipliers are awarded extreamly heavy.
Competition sets the standard and puts the birds where they should be,in the air and not just in someones imagination or behind rose colored glasses of back when.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
652 posts
Jun 27, 2008
1:01 PM
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Scott,
I think that the quality and depth multipliers are not nearly enough. I think they should be at least triple what they are...
Gomez
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Scott
826 posts
Jun 27, 2008
2:37 PM
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Paul, not if the judge is judging by a min quality standard
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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PR_rollers
1323 posts
Jun 27, 2008
8:45 PM
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Ralph,
So was Pensom right? Has competition caused the Birmingham Roller to degenerate into less than what it was?
Back then he was right the Birmingham has degenerated from the standard that was set back then.....back then rollers roll deeper competition came around and now we have a different standard ...birds that roll not so deep for the sake of getting back to the kit on time to score. Not scoring individual birds but birds that roll together as a team five or more see now they are different standards that are set for our birds why because the change of times.
"I think the breed is being simplified for the sake of competition.
Paul when it comes to competition nothing is simplified,their is nothing simple about training these Birmingham rollers to compete. everyone has there own unique way of training these aireal acrobats.but its not simple to get 20 rollers breaking together or rolling with quality.it take hard work and dedication being a scientist in your laboratory.take skills .skills that I know you know about.. It easy to breed a deep roller mate two deep roller and you get a deep one but it hard to breed a 15 to 25 footer fast tight with that Umm thats leaves your mouth open.
Let me ask you something do you think if Pensom was around would he be happy to see what we have accomplish with the Birmingham roller today ?.
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 6:36 PM
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ezeedad
654 posts
Jun 28, 2008
7:19 PM
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Ralph,
I have to give credit to the dedication that kit competitors give to the sport. But you say yourself that the bird has changed with the times.. We both see that.
Kit competition requires a lot of strategy, skill, planning and commitment. Everyone also knows that luck also has to be on your side.
But when you ask what I think that Pensom would say about todays rollers...?? Knowing his high standards he would probably say (privately)that 98% are "rubbish"...
He would probably like your birds tho... I think,,
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 8:30 PM
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Scott
834 posts
Jun 28, 2008
7:29 PM
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Thats 100 0/0 speculation Paul , you don't have a clue what he would think , and as a backyard pigeon keeper you don't have a clue whats flying out there.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 7:56 PM
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JMUrbon
564 posts
Jun 28, 2008
7:40 PM
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Paul until you or somebody else can show me just what a quality twizzle looks like I will continue to cull them. As for Pensom calling the birds of today Rubish I say that is rubish. I feel that Pensom as well as anybody else would have to appreciate what the Birmingham roller has evolved into. I think that it is just plain insulting to say that the breed has gone backwards. I have heard your side and I dont disagree with some of it but there was a time when you had to travel if you wanted to see a quaility group of birds. Myself I did get deeper birds when I started out but they were much more infrequent and there were many more that couldnt control it. If I sacraficed anything it has been the depth and that was for control. Instead of the 50-75 footers that usually killed themselves I settled for the 25-40 footers that live another day. My choice but if that is going backwards then I will catch up eventually and survive more doing it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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ezeedad
655 posts
Jun 28, 2008
9:03 PM
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Joe asked me to speculate... So I did... 100% tho..I think not... I have his words to go by, concerning what he thought the effect of competition would be. I have his written description of what constitutes a champion.
He even said..
"I have found so many conflicting opinions regarding the qualities of the Flying Tumbler in all its phases among certain sections of the fancy of late years, that I feel, unless such confusion is checked, the HIGHER VIRTUES of the breed will suffer sadly and may even BECOME EXTINCT."
To me it sounds like he was talking about things like the hole.... and the TRUE TWIZZLE.. not that crap you guys keep talking about..
I'm closing in on 50 years raising rollers.. I have seen hundreds of guys birds fly, many thousands of rollers. I haven't been blindfolded in my backyard all that time.
Scott.. what has happened to the hole? Is it endangered? Almost extinct I would say. The true twizzle always was rare.. So it probably is extinct in Birmingham Rollers...
Gomez
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ezeedad
656 posts
Jun 28, 2008
9:17 PM
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Joe,
It sounds like you made the same type of choices that I made when putting my family together. I hate to have birds roll down. Speed and control is what I bred for. Now I want to get the hole back in a a clearly defined way. The twizzle will probably always be just a dream for me.
You shouldn't have asked me such a hard question..
Paul G
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JMUrbon
565 posts
Jun 28, 2008
9:34 PM
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I can respect that Paul. I just am not very receptive to somebody saying that we have gone backwards in this breed when from what I have witnessed I just dont see it that way. In my roller world, that being what I personally have witnessed I see it entirely different. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
835 posts
Jun 28, 2008
10:18 PM
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(The true twizzle always was rare.. So it probably is extinct in Birmingham Rollers...)
With God willing the twizling would be extinct, but I think not due to what causes a bird to do such, as for the hole , it never was common and then as today most didn't even know what it was,those that talk about it non stop dont have it either, as long as they are tight smooth and fast I could care less about it, obviously that is how most feels about it.
I will say this, if Pensom truely valued twizling as a "performance" (which I doubt very seriously) I could give a rats ass what he would think and my respect for him would take a major dive as why a cull does such is pretty basic stuff.
Personly I think it is another one of those things where the context of his message was lost, I'm going to look though his later writings on this.
Talk comes easy, flying is where it stops, when are we pitting our best against each other ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 11:41 PM
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George R.
836 posts
Jun 28, 2008
10:34 PM
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Hey Scott
I need a Fall Fly prelims Judge are you available ?
The Novice
George
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Electric-man
1764 posts
Jun 28, 2008
10:51 PM
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Sorry Scott, but Paul isn't making personal insults to you, no need to throw them at him!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Scott
836 posts
Jun 28, 2008
11:20 PM
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Val, it wasn't meant as a personal insult, I was just stating the fact that he doesn't know what is being fkown out there as he is a backuard pigeon Keeper.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 11:42 PM
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Scott
837 posts
Jun 28, 2008
11:43 PM
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George, we all fly Rubish and the Birmingham Roller is extinct, from this point on I'm staying in my back yard and starting a muff and Almond project while sitting at my computer with my rose colored glasses on talking about how good they used to be.
I suggest you do the same,but I will come there for free gaming tokens!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 11:57 PM
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pw_rollers
4 posts
Jun 29, 2008
7:11 AM
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My thought on this is as follows; once you SEE the hole there is no turning back--it is truly a higher standard of performance. I can remember a good friend of mine telling me stories of rollers in Canoga park, CA, Pensom's House. His recollection, which i trust to the hilt, was that the hole was present a large degree of the time in bird's that Pensom flew; needless to say my friend chose these birds to start his own family. His name was Cornell Norwood.
He definitely produced SOME of the finest rollers I had ever witnessed; but, unlike Pensom, a smaller percentage[that I witnessed] rolled with the hole. He never, never, never stopped talking about creating birds that rolled in that fashion.
The act of twizzling does not define the bird, as so many that have responded want to offer. The twizzle that I am talking about is a rarity, and it is definitely not Donek like in any way. You would, on your best day, in an extremely high quality family, probably never see it. But when you did, accompanying the hole, you would feel as if you died and went to heaven.
Paul Gomez has raised an incredible family of rollers. Either publicly, and sometimes privately, many have injected their own projects with his bloodline. Speed, he got it! The ability to produce and select producers, got that to! What he does not have is the patience to judge his birds by a substandard judging system.
Who are we to judge that?
This follows a long tradition of roller-people that have viewed the current kit competition rules as deleterious to the sport. They opted instead to employ individual style competitions, which definitely separated the "wheat from the shaft." And, served as a barometer of sorts to guage where we were going in our absolute facisination--or fanaticism--with securing the "ideal."
The "backyard" comment was meant as a "dis" and I say that's cowardly...and speaks to the character of the owner of those words. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard...
The idea that we have magically begun to create "ideal" rollers in numbers greater than before is ludicrous. What we have created is rollers that are fun to watch, pretty fast, and a very popular way of judging them. This conversation about the twizzle, and to some large degree the hole, serves to act as an indicator on how undervalued the "ideal" standard has come.
We had better do something, as a hobby, about that or we will ultimately destroy all vestiges of the True Birmingham Roller.
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--pw
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George R.
838 posts
Jun 29, 2008
7:31 AM
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pw said "The idea that we have magically begun to create "ideal" rollers in numbers greater than before is ludicrous"
I dont think it is ludicrous
The Birmingham Roller is better today then it has ever been. I had a bird that rolled with the dougnut and I gave it away.
The bird was very nice but was not the fastest Bird in the kit also it was very long cast. I did not breed it , I bought it from a Freind.
Sure she was nice to look at but again her speed was average at best. I think the only reason she displayed the Hole was because of her type ... Long Cast other wise she was just a average Bird.
The Novice
George
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 7:33 AM
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pw_rollers
5 posts
Jun 29, 2008
8:29 AM
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George,
When we speak of the "ideal" Birmingham Roller there is no question of speed nor style. It is not as if you can have one without the other, or vice versa. I can tell you, however, that if you were in possession of the "ideal" True Birmingham Roller it is safe to say that you would have never given it away.
ideal-- 1) a conception of something in its most excellent form; 2) a perfect model; 3) a goal or principle
Maybe we are arriving at a place where folks believe that a new standard or "ideal" should be set. If that is the case you should simantaneously create a new name for your "ideal" because it COULD not be a Birmingham Roller standard, ideals don't work that way.
I, for one, still have a lot of work to do in producing high numbers of birds that reach towards the True Birmingham ideal. I have bred a few donuts in my day and a whole lot of fast birds--ask me what happened to my donuts. LOL
--pw
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Scott
838 posts
Jun 29, 2008
8:48 AM
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(The "backyard" comment was meant as a "dis" and I say that's cowardly...and speaks to the character of the owner of those words. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard...)
Your right it is much easier to sit behind a keyboard talking a good game rather than actualy flying a good game.
PW, we(myself,London, and Abel Ybarra have offered to fly our best against any of the backyard flyers best under THERE single bird rules , what we get back , excuses,
Like you said it is much easier to sit behind a key board , if you guys want repect try walking the talk instead of slamming those that are out there putting them up for the world to see and pitting them against the best in the world,the world is a whole lot bigger than a few backyards in LA buddy.
PS did I read that right, now we have twizlers showing the hole as the ultimate ? LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 9:29 AM
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pw_rollers
6 posts
Jun 29, 2008
9:46 AM
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Scott,
Ahhh, so you are local.
Let me say this to you, and please don't get it twisted, "you've got me bent!" Now, I am not the type of person that simply writes about it--I am about it. If what you are implying is that you want to fly some birds, i am with that 100%, you picked the right one. I don't need to hear about what you and other folks have tried to do, sounds to me like you are trying to drag them into your post. If this is about something else you can put that on the table too--like i said, you've picked the right one.
Now, lets figure out what it is that you are really trying to accomplish and go about handling that. My email address is joyridekids@earthlink.net, i'll be waiting to hear from you.
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--pw
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 9:49 AM
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Scott
839 posts
Jun 29, 2008
9:52 AM
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Pw I'm glad that I got you bent, a man that is willing to put them up I respect , I'm in N Ca. ,lets do it !
Will Arnold Jackson or Marsall Duncan work as a judge for you ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 9:57 AM
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George R.
840 posts
Jun 29, 2008
10:03 AM
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Pw you got a name ? also are you joyride ? I seen some other post by someone with the Handle "joyride"
The Novice
George
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pw_rollers
8 posts
Jun 29, 2008
10:08 AM
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Yeah George, I have been "issues" trying to comment on this site. Tony finally got me all squared away. The joyride1 posts were mine as well--however, i am hoping that pw_rollers will work so i don't have to use that one.
My name is Pete.
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--pw
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