|
The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Color Position Paper
Color Position Paper
Page:
1
2
3
Ballrollers
1359 posts
Jul 23, 2008
8:12 AM
|
Tony,
Why is the Color Position Paper passworded? Don't you want everyone to be able to access it? How do I get a password? I'd like to check it out!
Cliff
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2719 posts
Jul 23, 2008
10:43 AM
|
Hey Cliff, just gearing up to get the Color Position Paper Team access which includes those few guys who represent both sides that I invited a while back in the last Great Debate.
I will be uploading the postulates you emailed to me along with a few ground rules of my own to guide the team as we build a consensus.
The Color Position Paper forum is to be private, the details of this discussion are not meant for public viewing at this time. Perhaps in the future, the portions of the discussion can be made public or I will publish them in future RPDC publications.
In any event, I will be in contact with you and the rest of the team soon.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
sundance
667 posts
Jul 23, 2008
2:13 PM
|
Private ? huh? Whats up wit that guys ? Cant we all play?
I`m telling MOM !!!!!
LOL
----------
Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2720 posts
Jul 23, 2008
2:42 PM
|
Hey Butch, sorry about that! LOL
Seriously, everyone who had something to say, said it on the last color debate thread that grew to over 8 complete pages!
We will use those comments and other color thread plus additional materials that are available to build a consensus that most reasonable thinking people can agree on and honors the Birmingham Roller standard first and foremost.
We are not looking to re-debate the issues but find common ground and go from there.
Unfortunately, an audience will only make doing this more difficult.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
bertie
408 posts
Jul 23, 2008
2:45 PM
|
Well no matter how you write it their is always going to be 2 side of that coin, and never change anyone's mind on either side.
Bert
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2721 posts
Jul 23, 2008
3:02 PM
|
And that Bertie is why you were not asked to be on the team and not to mention you are still learning to fly birds.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2008 3:04 PM
|
Scott
958 posts
Jul 23, 2008
3:42 PM
|
Color bird = Mutt , thats mine in a nutshell,hope it helps
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
showlow
52 posts
Jul 23, 2008
4:03 PM
|
Hope Scott isn't in that debate!!!!!!!!!
|
bertie
410 posts
Jul 23, 2008
4:07 PM
|
See, theirs that coin.Both sides. I knew which side Scott is on! I'm neutral on the subject. I get yelled at enough on everything else.
Bert
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2723 posts
Jul 23, 2008
4:57 PM
|
Hey Bertie, there are times keeping a low profile is best! LOL I didn't mean to sound so mean to you, sorry!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
bertie
411 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:08 PM
|
You never said a word to Scott or Andrew, Hmmmm, guess this site is not for me. Thanks for all the abuse and lots of none color information.
Bert
Bye all! And don't try voicing an opinion new guys in less it goes with the flow.
|
George R.
912 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:11 PM
|
"And don't try voicing an opinion new guys in less it goes with the flow"
Bert
I dont believe that is true.
George
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2724 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:12 PM
|
Hey Scott, you know I have tremendous respect for your efforts and knowledge. I have made that clear to you in the past and your tenacity on the subject is to be commended.
I agree with you that the Birmingham Roller is an actual breed. But there are weaknesses to the position that demand intellectual honestly.
That is why I could really use your influence and perspective when it comes to Cliff and his own bulldog efforts as well.
If you can't see working with us to create a position paper for the site, I understand, but this paper will be what gets promoted to ALL the new people who come to the site in an effort to move past the controversy that creates so much confusion and ill-will between site members from time to time.
It is my desire to see an intellectually honest document written that will address the concerns, strengths and weaknesses of the two sides (which there are several in my view) that can be promoted within the hobby.
I would be great if you could be a part of that dogmatism aside.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2725 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:19 PM
|
Hey Bertie, I guess you don't know "wit" when it hits you. LOL Whatever man, this time really is your last time to tell us you are moving on.
Let me say, Scott was banned from this site for about 10 months before we got past the differences. BTW, he actually has some thing to contribute of extreme value, you are just a whiner from the way you handle yourself.
As far as Andrew, I have no idea what you mean. Now go have a nice day!
_---------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Scott
961 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:42 PM
|
Tony, there is just nothing to even debate, they are mutts, what else it there to know ? they can't even stand on their own so it is pretty hard to take them serious.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
kopetsa
1204 posts
Jul 23, 2008
5:57 PM
|
There I deleted my last post. :) Exactly what I wrote is what I mean..
----------
Andrew
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2008 6:01 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2726 posts
Jul 23, 2008
6:02 PM
|
Yo Scott, I agree, the debate is over. The goal now is to produce a paper that explains the facts and what has actually gone on through the years as far as out-crosses and the imports and the BR strains that Pensom did not import.
Each person who is to be on the team is more or less to be attempting to move toward a document that supports breeding to the Birmingham Roller standard.
Funny thing is, no one that I have spoken to actually supports crossing the BR with other breeds.
Once we can get the team together in "private" and discuss the matter, the hope is we will find that we are closer to agreeing on most of the main points and produce a document that we ALL can be proud of and one that will stand the test of time and the scrutiny of our peers.
Because of your outspokenness on the issue, you have a credibility that would add tremendous weight to the cause.
(BTW, I was secretly hoping you would win the WC...LOL)
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
kopetsa
1205 posts
Jul 23, 2008
6:10 PM
|
I agree with showlow! That debate may be better off.
----------
Andrew
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2008 6:11 PM
|
Scott
962 posts
Jul 23, 2008
6:12 PM
|
Tony, you can't debate deciete and smoke and mirrors,honestly it isn't that important to me, and is really a non issue where most serious flyers are concerned
Honestly I just really like yanking their chain to be honest,a few are so full of shit that it is comical.
As for the other imports, they are also a non issue where I am concerned,don't know what else to say , thanks any way.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2008 6:22 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2727 posts
Jul 23, 2008
8:34 PM
|
K Scott.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
kopetsa
1207 posts
Jul 24, 2008
9:21 AM
|
Scott what exactly do you mean by " Color bird = Mutt".. Just curious?
----------
Andrew
|
Ballrollers
1360 posts
Jul 24, 2008
9:41 AM
|
Tony,
One cannot seriously use the term "intellectual honesty" in association with Scott. The two are mutually exclusive.
He is not interested in resolving this issue or in creating any sense of order or accord in our hobby. What gives him joy is to demean and intimidate men....."yanking their chain" as he puts it. He will not abide by whatever decision is reached anyway. He is willing to disregard all literature searches that disprove his positions by calling it smoke and mrrors. He will disregard all the facts about the many compeition flyers who seriously breed and fly this family....and he is willing to disrespect them in the process. You might as well just accept that fact!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 9:46 AM
|
showlow
54 posts
Jul 24, 2008
9:52 AM
|
Good point,Cliff--I think valid points have been made on both sides of this debate. I don't care to spend time debating with a person that has room for only one opinion in his mind. Tony has a good idea and with luck maybe can give the rest of us some type of closure on this subject. JMO----Bob
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2728 posts
Jul 24, 2008
9:55 AM
|
Hey Cliff, yeah, he revealed his motives (Hey Scott) which is his right. I like the saying "lead, follow or get out of the way". We are leading...
What we are attempting to do IS a good thing for this site and I have to believe for the hobby in general.
Going into our 5th year, RPDC through the participation of its members is uniquely positioned to address this issue and produce a position paper that I feel most thinking people will be able to adopt. JMO
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Dave Szab
172 posts
Jul 24, 2008
11:32 AM
|
Hey Tony,
Let's be honest. The only reason to come up with a position paper for this site, is to placate the guys that fly the cross-bred unusual colors, so that you keep them happy and keep their business. There's nothing wrong with that, it's good business sense, but let's not make it out to be anything else. These guys really don't have a leg to stand on as to whether or not these cross-bred colors are pure or true Birmingham Rollers, and the hard core Birmingham Rollers flyers are never going to accept any kind of position paper that gives any credence to the cross-bred colors being pure Birmingham Rollers, so what's the point except to keep the customers happy?
It doesn't bother me what guys want to breed and fly in our competitions, and they should all be judged the same in the air without any prejudice, but they should never be called pure or true Birmingham Rollers, because they will never be.
Dave Szabatura
|
Ballrollers
1361 posts
Jul 24, 2008
11:47 AM
|
Dave,
That's a load of crap. Tony has no need to cater to those of us who fly this family anymore than those who fly any other family. I've seen guys these guys disrespect the Jaconette family, dilutes...anything that is outside their small sphere of experience, as well. I've been a patron of this site for many, many years..through all the color wars....and I'll probably be here through many more, as long as these guys keep posting rumor and opinion as fact.
I believe that Tony is making an effort to distinguish the rumor, fiction, and opinion, about the history and make-up of the Birmingham Roller from fact, based on a search of the literature, not the delusions of a few men with an agenda. And I believe he would like to see the two sides treat each other with a little more respect, once these facts and conclusions are posted. Do I expect the guys with the pruist agenda to accept it? No way. You want to modify Pensom's performance definition of a True Birmingham Roller to include only your notion of a "pure" Birmingham Roller? Have at it...but it's bulls&%t. Pensom never defined the True BR as pure. He knew better. Will you ever convince us that any one family constitutes the only real deal? the only "pure" breed? Not likely. We know, based on the literature, that these birds have been crossed up for a century. Do I expect guys like Scott and Kenny to acknowledge that fact and suddenly develope display respect for guys like me, Jay Yandle, Joe Bob Stuka, Clay Hoyle, Alex Hamilton, Dave Strait and many, many more competition men who breed and fly this family? Of course not. They will, forever, exist in a state of denial, and choose to respect only those who are more silent on the issue, just as you do. I understand that behavior.....on both sides of the coin. But it is what it is. Let's not delude ourselves. Scott and Kenny are what they are. But at least men who are coming into the sport, or are new to this site, will have a more centered view of these pigeons and what they are about. You may correct me if I am wrong, Tony.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 11:59 AM
|
Dave Szab
173 posts
Jul 24, 2008
12:08 PM
|
Cliff,
It's not a load of crap, it's just my opinion. My post was not against your particular family of birds, or their performance, it was about one simple fact, any bird that has a cross-bred unusual color in it's background is NOT a pure or true Birmingham Roller. The guys that fight this on your side, always tried to cloud over that one fact because it is a simple fact. Any other breed crossed into the Birmingham Roller, once it was established as a breed, is not a pure Birmingham Roller, it can't be refuted.
As I said in my last paragraph, I have nothing against these cross-bred rollers, or their owners, and I believe that they should be judged on their performance without prejudice to their color or origin. That does not mean they are pure or true Birmingham Rollers.
You may not agree with my opinion of the position paper, but it's a fact that this subject turns up the heat whenever it is brought up on the forum. Tony is between a rock and a hard place when he comments on those posts. If he sides with the guys that have the same opinion that I do, he pisses off the cross-bred color roller guys, which means he could lose business. It helps Tony out to find a middle grund on this subject, that's all, nothing wrong with that.
Dave
|
155
671 posts
Jul 24, 2008
12:15 PM
|
It doesn't bother me what guys want to breed and fly in our competitions, and they should all be judged the same in the air without any prejudice, but they should never be called pure or true Birmingham Rollers, because they will never be
-----------------------------------------------------------
So for the birmingham roller guys, so what family of bird's or color should we fly for use to be called a true brirmingham roller guy....My thing is what is a color bird for you guys, let me know explain out of you true birmingham roller nauludge...What is a color roller to you guys...Well you consider my family of birds colors or tru birmingham rollers I fly higgins, masons....Not trying to disrespect anyone I just a piece of your nauludge just so I can sucuide in this hobby LOL..............................
----------
EVILLOFT'S
|
Ballrollers
1362 posts
Jul 24, 2008
12:57 PM
|
Dave,
I don't know of anyone who flies this family of rollers, including myself, that has ever contended that these birds are "pure" anything. That has never been the issue. However, according to the geneticists, you know as well as I, with your basic education in genetics, that after a certain number of generations of breeding back to the original, that the genetic variation is negligble, not pure, but neglible. That is precisely the basis for the "purist" camp's notion of purity in the BR breed, in spite of the Tippler light print outcrosses, West of England outcrosses, Oriental outcrosses and God knows what else that occured many moons ago at the turn of the century. You guys conveniently disregard those outcrosses, yet base your claim against the Turner family being "cross-breds" for the same process that occurred! LOL! That inconsistency is what makes your argument illogical.
Cliff
|
J_Star
1672 posts
Jul 24, 2008
1:18 PM
|
Tony, Why do you need a password for the Color Paper thing!! It is being discussed out on the open.
There we go again!!! We all are in this country made from a melting pot. So why the importance of BR to have the issue of purity!! Why do we have to find something even in an innocent hobby to start the desegregation and the demeaning of things and group of people to make some of us feel superior!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 1:18 PM
|
Ballrollers
1363 posts
Jul 24, 2008
1:32 PM
|
Jay,
Jay Great idea! I think it goes back to the dim beginnings of the roller hobby, where the mantra began "MY BIRDS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR BIRDS." This is the same thing but with a different twist. This chest beating hairy roller man description seldom applies to any man in the NBRC HOF. Most serious rollermen couldn't care less about a color on a feather. They care about performance as we all should. Just because one can fly a good kit of birds, is no assurance that the flyer has class or knows normal reasonable courtesy. This is a fan sport like football, baseball, etc. How far would the team get by degrading the fans? Where would we be if NO ONE came to see our birds, no need for a club? No friends? Piss enough folks off and we all suffer, one way or the other. How hard is it to say something nice instead of jabbing a guy in the eye with a sharp stick? There are ways of stating ones opinion without discourse and hurting feelings. Example: you don't say your wife is over weight, you keep your mouth shut, or say what a lovely day it is or how good her cooking is. The difference is, as I see it, you are showing RESPECT to your wife by not saying something you know will harm your relationship. Here on this board respect is often lacking for others "OPINIONS." If you can't respect others opinions, respect them as club members. The thing that brings us together is the love of this performance Roller. Call it what ever your opinion defines the bird as, but show a little class when dealing with others opinions. If some are ethically challenged, remember, even though they may fly good birds, they may be undesirable men who lack character and do not know how to respect others. Where would we be if all we did is "jerk each others chains"? Think that will start friendships and foster camaraderie or lead to arguments and bad feelings? Show your class, read the by-laws, act responsibly, act in a gentlemanly manor. Treat others as you want to be treated. OR just keep doing what we are doing and see where it leads.
I think Tony's plan is just to narrow the field a little in order to see what conclusion we can reach as a comittee, and considering all the input from the entire group in the past....hopefully logically and without so much emotion! LOL! Then I feel certain he intends to open up the thread for all to see. I'm sure there will be discussion at that time. By the way, did you get that Andy cock down on eggs?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 2:19 PM
|
Ballrollers
1364 posts
Jul 24, 2008
1:35 PM
|
Dave,
You are an educated man. You understand the written word. When the genetic texts explain how to cross and bring that cross back to being defined as genetically pure, I believe it. That is the basis for many of the enhanced breeds we see today, including the BR. And when WHP used the phrase TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER, he was using it to distinguish between a common tumbler and bird that meets or exceeds the performance standard. It had nothing to do with genetic purity. The family of birds I fly, carries a few more color genes than some of the other families. They are bred for performance and they have, in WHP terms, earned the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. The Birmingham Roller was made from ODT and WOE, among others. All the colors found in those birds should be found in the BR, after all the BR is nothing but a cultivated tumbler. Again WHP's words, not mine. As long as the fancy is performance-based, there is room for all rollers to prove their worth, regardless of color, factors or name. Turner crossed in a colored roller into his Pensom based family. Was a cross for color, made somewhere down the line?...ABSOLUTELY! Does that define these birds more than their performance.....no matter how long ago, rare colors have been in the BR gene pool? One drop of blood of one cross, made before you were born, shall define birds, that meet and/or exceed, the performance standard? Sorry Dave, but in MY opinion these birds can earn the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. What do you call a family of birds, that have peds back to England but never even flip, couldn't spin if their life depended on it, couldn't earn the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER? Don't "TELL ME", those birds are Birmingham Rollers... "SHOW ME IN THE AIR" birds that can earn the title of a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. The color on the feathers is just that and has nothing to do with performance. There are performance families with few color modifiers and then there are performance families with several color modifiers. We have a choice.
Cliff
|
nicksiders
2994 posts
Jul 24, 2008
1:39 PM
|
"Mutt" is okay, I think. I have learned you just can't use "mongrel". It can get you banned.....indefinitly, too. I don't think you can use the term "bastarizing" either. It is not what you say, but how you say it is the problem.
From what I am hearing from the people who have mongrels and mutts or are into bastardising the breed; what they like to hear is "crossbreeding". That same group also like to say that the words "Birmingham Roller" does not refer to a specific breed, but a level of performance.
Some of my best friends are them.
Wierd, ain't it?
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 1:41 PM
|
nicksiders
2995 posts
Jul 24, 2008
2:02 PM
|
Cliff,
Why do you think or feel that if a breed was mongrelized a "long time ago" that it is no longer a crossbreed because it was a long time ago that it was mongrelized?
The Birmingham Roller is a specific breed and not a performance level. Some will perform better than others; that is how it is and that is how it has always been. You are cloaking the real thruth by what you want to believe about crossbreeding End of story.
You mock those that believe crossbreeding to be taboo and should always be discouraged.
If you know by obvious signs or understand it to be a crossbreed and you continue to breed it; you are crossbreeding. It is not rocket science.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Dave Szab
174 posts
Jul 24, 2008
2:05 PM
|
Cliff,
The difference is that crosses made over a century ago were made on performance breeds, to affect performance, and to set the breed. Once the breed was set, bringing in different breeds just to get different colors, is not a cross for performance and does nothing but dirty the gene pool, which weakens the performance of the breed.
Let's not cloud that issue, you can't keep pointing to the performance breeds that were used to set the breed, as an excuse for crossing in non-performance enhancing breeds to bring in a rare color. Most of these color birds that were crossed in were show birds that had no aerial performance abilities.
Yes, I agree, that over the years if you keep bringing the color crosses back to pure BRs you are moving toward a pure BR, BUT you know, as well as I, that wasn't always done. Most of these rare colors were lost if you kept bringing the birds back onto pure BRs. So what did these guys that brought in these rare colors do? They crossed the crosses together, or sometimes back onto the F-1 crosses, to get the color back. After all, what was their reasons for the original crosses? It was to get certain colors, or patterns. If they started losing the colors or patterns, they would stop putting these birds back onto pure BRs.
Cliff, everytime you mate 2 rare colored rollers together, even if they don't have much of the original cross in them, what are you doing? You are moving away from the pure Birmingham Roller, not moving toward it.
Performance is performance, and that's all that I really care about, but a pure Birmingham Roller is just that, it is pure once the breed was set. I will say as I have many times, but you don't seem to hear, I have no prejudice against these cross-bred colored rollers. As long as they perform correctly I love to watch them in the air, and would judge them accordingly with no prejudice, I just don't care to own them, and do not consider them pure Birmingham Rollers, and they should not be called pure Birmingham Rollers.
Dave
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 6:18 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2729 posts
Jul 24, 2008
2:22 PM
|
Hey Dave, I can appreciate your point of view, but you got it all wrong. The motive you are attributing to me is flat out incorrect. You can apologize anytime! LOL
I love the BR as much as you or anyone else that has ever held one or flown them. I have much at stake to put myself or RPDC downrange of the jabs and criticism which is happening already.
Before anyone judge what we are doing, why not just wait and see what we are able to come up with.
In any event, newbies in the hobby who frequent RPDC will get an earful of this position paper and be better informed and knowledgeable on the topic and will be able to make up his/her own mind and not get caught up in or mis-directed by provincial arguments.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Ballrollers
1365 posts
Jul 24, 2008
2:26 PM
|
Nick,
Where did you ever get that idea? I have never said anything of the sort. I only said that after so many generations, based on the predominant genetic theory, that the out-cross is negligible at that point. And I have always spoken out in oppostition to breed out-crossing, today. Please don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's for that matter. Try to hear precisely what the person is communicating before you draw conclusions rather than hearing what you want to hear. If you are not sure of the esact meaning, it is more effective to ask, whether than make incorrect assumptions. That tends to piss people off.
Cliff
|
JMUrbon
595 posts
Jul 24, 2008
2:28 PM
|
Those that know me know my views and opinions on this matter. However it may be I think that the opinions on this subject are mute when it comes to the reasons we fly these birds. In the end they are all going to be judged by a non biased judge and who really gives a crap what somebody thinks of the birds as long as they are able to perform in the air to the performance standard. I dont like to see mutts or crossbred birds any more than the next guy but the truth is once they get in the air I CANT.When they start getting judged prejudicely then we will really have something to discuss. Until then we are simply worrying about another mans opinion of our birds and you know what? Hes entitled to his opinion as are you.
Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Dave Szab
175 posts
Jul 24, 2008
6:55 PM
|
Hey Tony,
I never said that you didn't love the Birmingham Roller, as a matter of fact, from your postings during the many color debates, I believe that your stance on the subject is probably pretty close to mine.
Now let's be honest here though, you've had to play the politician on this subject in the past and placate both sides. This is a great site you have here, but it's also a great business for you. You sell any supplies that any pigeon man could ever need, and unproven young birds at $50 to $60 a pop, you can not afford to piss off any block of your customers. That's just good business sense, and even if you don't admit it on the forum, I still think there's at least a little truth to it. Come on, give me a little wink or something....LOL!
Why do you need to create and display this position paper? The pure Birmingham Roller guys will never accept it if it gives ANY credence to the cross-bred for color guy's stance that the color birds are pure BRs, and if the paper comes to the conclusion that they aren't pure BRs, then the color roller guys will be upset. The paper is more likely to come to a muddled conclusion somewhere in between, which will not be accepted by the pure BR group, but which will placate the color roller guys. That goes back to my original premise that the whole reason for this position paper is to placate the cross-bred color roller guys, if not to keep the customers happy, then for some other reason, but the outcome will be the same.
I guess the bottom line is that I just don't see a good reason for this paper.
Dave
|
Ballrollers
1366 posts
Jul 24, 2008
7:14 PM
|
Dave,
Well, I wasn't around in the early part of the last century AFTER the breed was set when the Tippler light print grizzle was crossed into the breed. You can naiively believe that those guys were only interested in the enhancement of performance, if you choose. I know pigeon men well enough to recognize that it was for the color as well. And I cannot believe that you also buy into the misguided notion that anyone of the veteran flyers I have mentioned is breeding back to Pensoms for any reason other than experimental lines in a quest for the perfect roller. I thought you knew better. JOe Bob coached me several years ago to be sure, if I crossed in other lines, to be sure to keep several lines of the pure Turners to go back to for the speed, quality and work rate. So it actually the opposite of what you believe. Maybe I misunderstood you.
From reading several different authors and several different opinions from those authors, from men who raised and flew performance Rollers, I reached the "OPINION" that the Birmingham Roller is a "BREED" based on performance NOT PURITY. I am sure one could read the same books and reach other opinions. I do not call my birds PURE anything. I use the same phrase WHP did and say my birds earn the title of True Birmingham Roller. You may have a different opinion and you are welcome to whatever opinion you wish to use but you cannot tell other men what to call their birds. You cannot enforce your will or your opinion on others any more than I can. Share the source of your information that supports your opinions. State chapter and page, as I have, and I will see if I need to change or alter my opinions. When a friend on mine, who I trust and respect; a man who has decades of experience with these birds, tells me, as well as others, that Opals are found in the Birmingham Roller gene pool, it has been there for years, I believe him. I have seen his birds perform and they are TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS in every sense of the word. I don't raise these birds for their colors, I raise them for their performance. There are good color rollers and bad color rollers. There are good non color rollers and bad non color rollers. There are good Birmingham Rollers and bad Birmingham Rollers. But in the end, all the good ones perform to the standard and this earn the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. That is fact, not opinion. In my opinion.:0)
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 7:16 PM
|
nicksiders
2998 posts
Jul 24, 2008
7:31 PM
|
I may be off or even wrong on my history. The Tippler was added in North America. That breed then became known as American Rollers. The Birminghams that we are flying do not have Tippler genetically implanted. I cannot verify whom I got that information from; it is something I have carried around with me sinse I was a kid. Now, if you can prove to me that I was wrong; I will erase that information from my memory bank and jot down the new found fact.
It is not the first time I have heard the Tippler thing and I just ignored it. I know longer have enough time left to ignore all things(LOL).
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 7:33 PM
|
Dave Szab
176 posts
Jul 24, 2008
7:51 PM
|
Cliff,
Man, you always take this debate to heart too much. I'm not attacking your, or JoeBob's, or Jay's, or Clay's birds, I consider all of you guys friends of mine. I've seen the birds that you guys fly, they are real deal rollers of high quality, no doubt about it, but that's not the debate is it? I also did NOT say that you guys are crossing in non-performance birds for color, I DID say that when the original crosses were made that non-performance birds were crossed in for the desired color. I then disproved your contention that these colored rollers were made almost pure after many generations, which is only true if you keep bringing them back to the pure strain on all those generations. I can't really believe that I have to go over this all again, your a smart man and you know what I wrote, you are just trying to cloud the issue, and twist my words. If I didn't know better, I would think that I was arguing with Kenny! LOL.
Dave
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2008 8:21 PM
|
nicksiders
2999 posts
Jul 24, 2008
7:55 PM
|
Cliff,
The problem is, there are a lot of new people and some very young that will believe your OPINIONS as fact because of your possition and place. They believe these opinions to be fact and that is how they carry forth to others that it is a fact. Then those carry the same "fact" onward to others. So on and so forth.
Your opinion that the Birmingham Roller is not a specific breed counterdics every definition I have ever read what a breed is; any breed. The same opinion is also contrary historical data about the breed.
It is my opinion that you are just spinning all known facts about the breed to match some kind of agenda. An agenda that I am not sure why you have spawned.
Is it due to a love affair you have for certian crossbreeds from a breeder or breeders that you have struck up close relationship with?
I am stymied here. I really don't want you to respond to this because I will only get another dose from the spin doctor of the same spin.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Scott
967 posts
Jul 24, 2008
10:30 PM
|
(I am stymied here. I really don't want you to respond to this because I will only get another dose from the spin doctor of the same spin.)
That is it in a nut shell Nick and is why there is nothing to debate.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
kopetsa
1211 posts
Jul 25, 2008
12:32 AM
|
"Color bird = Mutt" is a false statement in my opinion..
----------
Andrew
|
Ballrollers
1367 posts
Jul 25, 2008
6:35 AM
|
Dave,
It's called attempting to communicate...the conveyance of ideas with words that we are struggling with, here. Dave, I must have missed where you disproved "my contention that colors birds can be defined as genetically pure." If you disproved that, you must have "proved " the books are wrong and you did not do that, as far as I could see. We are talking about a "ROLLER" being used to bring in a color gene into a Pensom based Roller family.The genetic texts explain it all to my satisfaction. Are your assumptions based on texts? If so, give me the chapter and page so I may go read where you get this idea. If you have no written info to back up your claim, where else do you get this information? From what I can understand from Tony, this "color position paper" will include ideas based on fact and those based on opinions. I doubt any concrete world changing ideas will come to light. What I do hope happens, is that a calm representation of ideas will be made where both sides of this issue will be clearly stated and where "choices" are offered to those who wish to educated themselves about the color factors available within the roller gene pool. He doesn't have to take a side and jeopardize his site, as you say. It has been stated that the color debate is a non issue when it comes to performance rollers. If they are the "REAL DEAL OF HIGH QUALITY" which I agree and appreciate, how could this happen without breeding from True Birmingham Rollers? The color factors are not involved in picking breeding choices, performance, character, feather quality, etc., are. These birds have been bred this way for many many generations without regard for color. Colors just go along for the "ride." It's just a paint job over a Birmingham roller motor. There are factory paint jobs and then they are exceptional "after market" paint jobs but the MOTOR, the heart and soul of these birds is only proven in the air. Now, if you are saying there are good color birds and there are color birds unworthy of being called TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS, Sure I can agree to that. But that is a two way street where there are good Birmingham Rollers and Birmingham Rollers not worthy of being called TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS. Choices.
Cliff
|
nicksiders
3002 posts
Jul 25, 2008
6:37 AM
|
Andrew,
We are talking about those so-called "rare" colors that was implanted into the Birmingham Roller using another breed......that would make it a mutt.
Katolivee?
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Ballrollers
1368 posts
Jul 25, 2008
8:59 AM
|
Tony,
I am looking forward to trying to figure out a way to show the different sides to this issue, as well pointing out all the areas where we agree. We have many many areas we agree in, they are the real places we need to share our opinions. I look at it this way...YOU ARE EITHER PART OF THE SOLUTION and participate, OR PART OF THE PROBLEM and avoid working towards a compromise. There is very little BLACK AND WHITE when it comes to Roller Pigeons, gray areas are where the most controversy arises. There are areas where opinions differ and there are written words to help understand how different opinions are logically based. All this has a place in our Roller history and each man is free to base his understanding on whatever information he choses. All I hope we do is be able separate the fact from the fiction, the truth from untruths and work to build a better stronger hobby where we all can appreciate and respect one another's opinions. I think it is possible with everyone's help and understanding.
Cliff
|
Ballrollers
1369 posts
Jul 25, 2008
9:10 AM
|
Nick,
You said, "Your opinion that the Birmingham Roller is not a specific breed counterdics every definition I have ever read what a breed is; any breed. The same opinion is also contrary historical data about the breed."
You must learn to read and discern what you are reading more precisely, Nick. I have never said that the BR is not a specific breed! What I have repeatedly said is that the breed is not a pure one based on its history.
"It is my opinion that you are just spinning all known facts about the breed to match some kind of agenda."....so now who is doing the spinning, Nick, in twisting my words above?
"Is it due to a love affair you have for certian crossbreeds from a breeder or breeders that you have struck up close relationship with?".....I am merely trying to get all the facts out there so everyone can draw their own conclusions based on the many literature searches....not just latching on to a judgement or opinion from some roller guy.... which is what we hear and read so much of in the sport.
Nick, read the definition of a BR from the NBRC. Then read and define what the WC bases it's fly on. Then ask what you saw when you judged. PERFORMANCE, the same performance that the Roller books advocate. NONE of the roller-based organizations say one word about size, weight, beak length, keel length, muffs, COLORS, etc. The only standard is the performance standard. Now what about Levi? How many birds did he report on? Did he raise them all? Fly them all? Or just report on what he saw? How many Rollers books/publications did Mr. Levi have published? One last time... The Birmingham Roller pigeon is a "BREED" defined by it's PERFORMANCE. That understanding is based on passages from WHP and others who raised and flew roller pigeons. If you want to base your understanding on Levi's book, that is fine too. Your choice.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2008 12:21 PM
|
Scott
975 posts
Jul 25, 2008
2:48 PM
|
( He will disregard all the facts about the many compeition flyers who seriously breed and fly this family.)
What family Cliff ??? I don't know of any families of nothing but color mutts that have done well in major competion ,you lost me
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2008 3:09 PM
|
Post a Message
|
|
|