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What Requirements To Fly 11 and 20 Bird Fll Fly?
What Requirements To Fly 11 and 20 Bird Fll Fly?
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elopez
1655 posts
Aug 26, 2008
12:32 PM
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Hey Cliff,
Can we compete 2 kits in the 20 bird fly and 2 kits in the 11 bird fly for the Fall fly? Please let me know.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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Scott
1106 posts
Aug 26, 2008
12:35 PM
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one each or 2-20 or 2-11
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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elopez
1656 posts
Aug 26, 2008
12:44 PM
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ummm, I'd rather fly 2 teams in the 20 bird fly, but it will depend on how the bop will be treating me these next couple of weeks.
Thanks for the info Scott.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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Scott
1110 posts
Aug 26, 2008
12:46 PM
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Keep in mind that not every region flys the 11, you need a total of ten 11 bird kits per qualifier
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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elopez
1657 posts
Aug 26, 2008
12:48 PM
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I'm keeping that in mind as I would like to help our region fly the 11 bird comp. So we'll see.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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Ballrollers
1412 posts
Aug 26, 2008
1:14 PM
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Thanks, Scott. In many regions the guys will fly one 11-bird kit and one 20-bird kit because they just don't have enough good birds, Efren.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 1:15 PM
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Ballrollers
1413 posts
Aug 26, 2008
2:03 PM
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Efren,
In addition to Scott's statement, not all regions fly 20 bird kits either. If just 5 flyers, fly two kits each, a region can earn a qualifier in either the 11 or the 20. Ten flyers entering two kits each, could possibly get an 11 AND a 20 bird qualifier, if the split was exact. You have to find what the flyers in your region want to fly. It is best to give options and see what they prefer. As I said, it depends on who has what birds. Many regions offer both and get qualifiers in both. There is no right or wrong, both are fun and both are sponsored by the NBRC. Some men prefer one over the other.
Some regions, as I believe Scott's does, pays for two 20- bird kits per flyer, but many will only fly one kit. That way, they get two qualifiers in the 20-bird. There has to be an intention to fly the kits, however, and a legitimate reason given for not flying a second kit, or the judge can disqualify the flyer. Personally, I would rather see a region fly the same birds in a 20-bird and then in an 11-bird, than to fly only one kit and pay for two. It's an ethical thing. Some have conjectured that there are flyers that may be hiding quality issues behind all the activity in a 20-bird kit. These quality issues are much more apparrent in the 11-bird comps.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 2:08 PM
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elopez
1658 posts
Aug 26, 2008
2:17 PM
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Thanks Cliff. I believe most of the members in our region would rather fly in the 20 bird comp. Hopefully we will have enough to get a qualifier in the 11 bird comp.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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Scott
1111 posts
Aug 26, 2008
5:29 PM
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Some regions, as I believe Scott's does, pays for two 20- bird kits per flyer, but many will only fly one kit. That way, they get two qualifiers in the 20-bird. There has to be an intention to fly the kits, however, and a legitimate reason given for not flying a second kit, or the judge can disqualify the flyer.
(For the NBRC it is strictly kits paid, you don't even have to fly one kit legit reason or not, unless there has been a recent change of which I don't think so, as for the W/C you must fly one of the two, if you don't fly at least one only then you need a legit reason, it is purely optionl to fly the second kit)
Personally, I would rather see a region fly the same birds in a 20-bird and then in an 11-bird, than to fly only one kit and pay for two. It's an ethical thing.
(Not hardly, it is a choice and nothing else,it is part of the rules and has always been)
Some have conjectured that there are flyers that may be hiding quality issues behind all the activity in a 20-bird kit. These quality issues are much more apparrent in the 11-bird comps.
( A poor judge will score poor birds in a 11 bird kit as they will in a 20 bird,a good judge won't score poor birds in either, nor can poor birds be hid whether it is an 11 or 20)
Cliff
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 6:57 PM
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Ballrollers
1416 posts
Aug 28, 2008
7:31 AM
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Scott,
Do we need a rule for every time an ethical question comes up? The NBRC sponsors a fly for men who want to fly, not for men who want to manipulate qualifiers. There is no way that a flyer who does not fly can win. If you don't want to fly ....DON'T ENTER! The NBRC expects everyone who enters a kit to make every effort to fly that kit and get that kit evaluated by the judge. That is an "understood gentleman's agreement." Unfortunately, there are some men who are not gentlemen and look for ways to manipulate our qualifier system to get more regional qualifiers than they deserve. They say, " there is no rule against what we do!" and sadly, the NBRC looks the other way. Ghost kits were kits paid, but not flown, in order to increase the number of kits and get an extra qualifier. There is no intention to fly Ghost kits. In fact , they may not even exist. Then, a few years back, a new nation did not understand the WC rules. They looked at the rules and used a huge club as their region. Each flyer who paid dues also paid to enter the WC, whether he intended to fly or not in the WC. This new WC country got many, many qualifiers and did very well in the finals. The USA objected, the new country stood by their understanding and forced the WC to come up with the 50% kits flown rule, which, in my opinion, is still a poor compromise. So, today, the WC has accepted 50% ghost kits. Which has led a few members in the NBRC to feel that the same rule applies to the NBRC fly. Why not just let flyers BUY a qualifier position, then? WE have NBRC regions doing that now, right Scott?! Every NBRC region must address these ethical questions that do not have a specific rule against doing this or that. Sometimes, all we have to go on is history within the region, a gut feeling, and a good sense of right or wrong. The NBRC is not a moral compass. The direction a region choses to go is dertermined by the ethics of the men with in that region. Until the NBRC firmly addresses this "gray" area, men will disagree as to how to handle Ghost kits. Another "CHOICE" we have to make...... Do we follow the rules or do we exploit the weakness in the rules that do not cover every situation? Is the need to win, greater than the need, to intend to fly a kit and get a judge to evaluate that kit? It is that simple.
Cliff
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kcfirl
479 posts
Aug 28, 2008
8:45 AM
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Cliff,
there you go changing the rules again. There is nothing that I am aware of that says there has to be any intent to fly the second kit.
When will the NBRC move out of the bush league and get it together with written rules, approved by a defined process, and post them for all to see.
Please post the official rules on the website so we can all see what they are.
Regards,
Ken
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Square
440 posts
Aug 28, 2008
10:45 AM
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This topic is right on time for me... I had some conserns on the ethic thing when I first learned it would be more benifital to four our own region wich I am in the process of now... This is because it it really not worth a persons time to come see one kit in the middle of nowhere... no matter how good or bad that kit may be... Just not really worth it and I can see this point... In addition this open's the door for people to minipulate the rules, for the Ghost Kit thing and plant the seed that the judge will see 15 kits instead of 7.. however the waist of time thing is still there. I have learned that thease rules can be minuplated and have looked back and seen it done.. With this being said I really know what we have to do to fly our bird's in comp,,, and now I am willing to do it. I know how many actual and how many Ghost kit's we will have,,, Mostly everyone will fly two kit's I personally will fly one 11 and one 20,,, and willing to work it however for the benifit of all. I am a ferm believer in a Gentelmans agrrement and will hold myself to those values in this sport. I'm not lookin to abuse te program, as I am serous about flying!!!
Truly Booker
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Ballrollers
1420 posts
Aug 28, 2008
11:01 AM
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Ken,
I am not challenging the NBRC rules, I am challenging the idea that men enter a fly they don't intend to compete in. If you have two kits and "INTEND" to have two kits evaluated, that is great. But to enter kits that don't exist, to enter kits that you don't intend to fly for a judge, kits you don't care if they are evaluated, is not in the sprit of fair competition. The NBRC AND WC flew under the same exact fly rules just a few years ago. It was the WC that voted to "LOWER THE BAR" and encourage 50% kits flown and did so without any vote of the flyers; for economic reasons. The NBRC has never encouraged such an idea. Unflown kits, Ghost kits, are not mentioned in the By-laws that I have. There is not a competition unless there are real kits to fly. You were on the NBRC EC when they discussed this issue. They did not want to encourage kits, that would not fly.... did they? Wasn't it said that whatever figure they used, the flyers would only fly what they "HAD TO"? We only have to examine the WC fly records to see how few kits actually fly for a score, sometimes. I have seen a few regions where only 4 kits got a score at all, and many in which less than 50% of entered kits post a score. DQ's and DNF's proliferate with each passing WC FLY. That is what the NBRC is trying to avoid. The NBRC appreciates regions that participate with as many kits as possible... FLOWN. NOT all NBRC regions fly 50%, many NBRC regions fly 80-90% of kits entered. The NBRC chose not to mention a figure for fear the kits flown would suffer the same decline as seen in the WC. The NBRC chose to let the region make "allowances" for men who couldn't fly for personal or emergency needs that arise in dat to day lives. You were there, did they tell you to fly ghost kits? Did you hear the number 50% flown is fine by them? The point is the NBRC and the WC do not look at this issue the same way. Just because the WC allows 50% kits NOT FLOWN, the NBRC would "prefer" as many kits as possible be flown, flown and expect a score. The NBRC does not have a hard and fast rule to cover kits flown but it is NOT the WC either. Therefore: Each region must answer this question for themselves. In the spirit of fair competition will you "try" to fly as many kits as possible or will you blur the lines between the WC and the NBRC? Your choice.
Cliff
PS The official rules and Fly Policies were published in the last (May-June) NBRC Bulletin.
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2008 11:03 AM
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Ballrollers
1421 posts
Aug 28, 2008
11:07 AM
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Ken,
You were on the NBRC EC when the by-laws were addressed. This topic came up and NOTHING was changed one way or the other. How can you now, disrespect the system that you were part of creating?
Cliff
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kcfirl
480 posts
Aug 28, 2008
11:35 AM
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cliff,
I was an RD for 5 years - every year the national fly director would decide how he wanted to implement the rules. I consistently asked for the rules to be clear and concise and published. They were not.
I can complain about the system I helped to create because the postion I took was not what was implemented.
Sort of like voting for George Bush and then being pissed with where we ended up.
I do not sisrespect it - I merely ask that you, as national fly director make the rules clear and publish them for all to see.
Respectfully,
Ken Firl
Former NBRC RD and member
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Ballrollers
1422 posts
Aug 28, 2008
12:32 PM
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Ken,
I have nothing but my "opinions" and they are not fly rules. These are GRAY areas.If I was the RD in my region, I know how I would handle it. The next RD may handle it differently......Yeah ol George kinda hung us out to dry. I agree with you........ Hey! Start a petition to get the NBRC EC to address this issue. I've been trying to bring clarity into the rules and into this position for three years. Yes, we have made progress, and we still have a long way to go. As an appointed official, I have about as much pull as a weak frayed rope. ;0(.
Cliff
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Scott
1115 posts
Aug 28, 2008
12:58 PM
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Scott,
Do we need a rule for every time an ethical question comes up? The NBRC sponsors a fly for men who want to fly, not for men who want to manipulate qualifiers. There is no way that a flyer who does not fly can win. If you don't want to fly ....DON'T ENTER! The NBRC expects everyone who enters a kit to make every effort to fly that kit and get that kit evaluated by the judge. That is an "understood gentleman's agreement." Unfortunately, there are some men who are not gentlemen and look for ways to manipulate our qualifier system to get more regional qualifiers than they deserve. They say, " there is no rule against what we do!" and sadly, the NBRC looks the other way.
(Cliff all of this came up before you were around and has nothing to do with your so-called "gentlemens agreement" the powers that be said that it was to be by kits "paid" due to the members that wanted to "support" the fly but could not fly ,and they deemed that it should count towards the qualifier, obviouly it evolves atound extra revenue )
Then, a few years back, a new nation did not understand the WC rules. They looked at the rules and used a huge club as their region. Each flyer who paid dues also paid to enter the WC, whether he intended to fly or not in the WC. This new WC country got many, many qualifiers and did very well in the finals. The USA objected, the new country stood by their understanding and forced the WC to come up with the 50% kits flown rule, which, in my opinion, is still a poor compromise. So, today, the WC has accepted 50% ghost kits.
(wrong again, I was there on the committee and it was before you were were in the sport so not sure were you got your info as it is just plain not true, "compromise" had nothing to do with anything, the must fly one kit (50 0/0)was put in place to elimintate ghost flyers and also so that regions with less than 15 kits for a qualifier could still compete as a region, in other words 8 flyers paying for 2 kits gives them one qualifer,and brand new regions can have 6 flyers paying for 15 kits for a total of 3 years.)
Which has led a few members in the NBRC to feel that the same rule applies to the NBRC fly. Why not just let flyers BUY a qualifier position, then? WE have NBRC regions doing that now, right Scott?! Every NBRC region must address these ethical questions that do not have a specific rule against doing this or that.
(see first response, the NBRC doesn't require to fly even one kit,that is the rules,if you want it different change the rules)
Sometimes, all we have to go on is history within the region, a gut feeling, and a good sense of right or wrong. The NBRC is not a moral compass. The direction a region choses to go is dertermined by the ethics of the men with in that region. Until the NBRC firmly addresses this "gray" area, men will disagree as to how to handle Ghost kits. Another "CHOICE" we have to make...... Do we follow the rules or do we exploit the weakness in the rules that do not cover every situation? Is the need to win, greater than the need, to intend to fly a kit and get a judge to evaluate that kit? It is that simple.
Cliff
(That is a pretty high horse that you are on there buddy, all of these issues came up and were addressed a long time ago, from the NBRC ghost flyer too the must fly at least one kit in the W/C.
There are two reasons for both, one being the obvious and very important one that being the extra revenue it brings in,change the rules and knock out this extra revenue if you feel so strongly about it.
And the other is that it allows the smaller regions to compete where they could not other wise due to not being able to meet the min. requirements for a qualifier,
Are you tell them that they can longer fly if you feel strongly about them paying for two kits when they only have one,of course you aren't , the rules aren't a fluke, whether we agree with them or not they were written and fine tuned the way they were for a reason )
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2008 7:37 PM
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Ballrollers
1424 posts
Aug 29, 2008
10:44 AM
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Ken,
Did I refer to this issue as a "gray area?" That means there is little to guide us. But to think that just because the rules do not specifically say what we should do, does not mean we should follow the WC rules. BEFORE the WC adopted the 50% kits unflown rule........ What was the commonly accepted rule for both the NBRC and WC? What did common sense tell you when there was nothing to guide us? And what ever answer you come up with, do you think that answer will be the same region to region 100% of the time? Could we refer to this as a gray area? That is why we have "regional differences" to our fly rules, many regions "interpret" the same rule, DIFFERENTLY. Correct?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1425 posts
Aug 29, 2008
10:59 AM
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Scott,
Yes, all my information is second hand. So there was no Country that had all it's club members pay up front to fly in the WC, even those that were not going to fly in the WC? And they did not get several qualifiers and they did not fly at least 50 % of their kits? And you were there ? So tell me what all that was about? The WC has always said 15 kits per qualifier. Everyone knows that going in, why tell me small regions had to have a break to NOT FLY KITS. They had to understand the WC qualifications. Did the WC change them too? The NBRC tried to fly 15 per qualifier and found it was too much of a burden on the smaller regions, so what did the NBRC DO....tell everybody to adopt a 50% flown rule? NOPE! the flyers voted to DROP the number of KITS to 10 per qualifier.... What a novel idea (and it makes sense too). What it takes to be a WC region is on the books and what they do is their business. The NBRC has no 50% rule written or otherwise. So in these large regions with many flyers .....why shouldn't they fly 90% kits? OH, I see the 50% rule. Yes, I see, make perfect sense. NOT! I will agree finances are more of an issue for the WC, but we are more interested in the NBRC National Championship and why men think the NBRC has a 50% rule. If a flyer wants to support the fly but has no birds or the hawks are bad, etc., donate to the auction, donate money to the region so men with birds, men who want to have their birds evaluated....can! There are lots of ways to "SUPPORT" the fly other than buying ghost kits. The WC has changed the rules, what once or twice? That is fine by me but the question I am addressing is the NBRC fly and the fact there is NO 50% flown rule. Would you like to address that?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1426 posts
Aug 29, 2008
11:01 AM
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Scott,
The NBRC qualifiers are calculated from the numbers of kits paid.... Correct. The question is: is it ethical to use non-existent kits (Ghost kits) or kits we don't want an evaluation of, to count towards the numbers for a qualifier? The NBRC rules do not expressly address this issue. It is my opinion that, ethically, we should strive to fly as many of the kits as possible. The NBRC intentionally did not want to state a minimum number to avoid exactly what we see in the WC regionals...... fewer and fewer kits actually flown and scored. I think, if you compare the FF to the WC, using the same regions, you may find that in several regions the NBRC, flys and scores more kits, in spit of BOP moigration and the molt. If it is a positive thing for the fancy, to pay for kits we do not fly, what is next? Where we should be encouraging men to fly and get their kits evaluated, it seems we are going the other way. Until this issue is resolved by the NBRC, each region will have to make their own determination. Which ever way you go, no one will tell you different. Your way to get the numbers for a qualifier is just as valid as mine. I choose to ask men to fly their kits if at all possible, If something comes up and they can't, it is no big deal. If you choose to use the WC method in your region, there is no specific rule against it. All I can tell you is: If you fly two kits..... you DOUBLE YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING! :0)))))
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1427 posts
Aug 29, 2008
11:04 AM
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Scott,
I agree with you on small regions being given a break to get to fly one qualifier.....no problem. But to get a second qualifier, that region must have the kits. If not, we are subsidizing regions with money and we shouldn't be. To get two qualifiers, you should "INTEND" to fly 20 kits, pay for 20 and intend to fly 20. Is that too much of a burden? These small regions need a break 'till they get up and going, but don't expect me to say it's OK to get two qualifiers using the WC system in a NBRC sponsored fly. The next fly director may think it's just peachy.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1429 posts
Aug 29, 2008
11:11 AM
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List,
Consider this.......Which region is more competitive; a region that flys 20 kits, or a region that pays for 20 and flys 10? They both get the same amount of qualifiers, but who more deserves the two qualifiers? Which region exhibits the most Sportsmanship? Which region do you want to be a part of? I can't tell you. The NBRC rules can't tell you. You must choose wisely, you may take either fork in this road. One is the high road, the hard road, "the road less traveled." The other road is the one many take. I ride a high horse cause I stand 6 foot 7 and my legs would drag the ground on the ones most ride. LOL!
Cliff
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Scott
1116 posts
Aug 29, 2008
11:36 AM
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Cliff, I know what my region will be doing, and that is getting as many qualifiers that are allowed by the rules !
That is what good RDs do !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
481 posts
Aug 29, 2008
11:42 AM
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Cliff,
I was told by past fly directors that they wanted us to enter as many kits as possible, as long as each person flew at least one kit. They said that was how they could afford the plane tickets to fly to the small, out of the way regions. I also saw that many regions were flying only 1 kit for every two entered.
Now you are implying that some regions lack common sense because they are tryig to mazimize the number of qualifiers within the letter and (previous) spirit of the rules.
Instead of bad mouthing regions who are only trying to fly by the rules and are funding the whole thing, why don't you propse and campign for rules that make sense and mean the same thing that they say in writing?
You are the fly director, correct?
This is exactly the kind of behavior that has pushed the NCRC Fall fly down to a level below the WC fly and makes me seriously consider not flying.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Scott
1117 posts
Aug 29, 2008
12:19 PM
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Scott,
Yes, all my information is second hand. So there was no Country that had all it's club members pay up front to fly in the WC, even those that were not going to fly in the WC? And they did not get several qualifiers and they did not fly at least 50 % of their kits? And you were there ? So tell me what all that was about?
(most certainly this was a real issue , but there was no compromise made)
The WC has always said 15 kits per qualifier. Everyone knows that going in, why tell me small regions had to have a break to NOT FLY KITS. They had to understand the WC qualifications. Did the WC change them too? The NBRC tried to fly 15 per qualifier and found it was too much of a burden on the smaller regions, so what did the NBRC DO....tell everybody to adopt a 50% flown rule? NOPE! the flyers voted to DROP the number of KITS to 10 per qualifier.... What a novel idea (and it makes sense too). What it takes to be a WC region is on the books and what they do is their business. The NBRC has no 50% rule written or otherwise. So in these large regions with many flyers .....why shouldn't they fly 90% kits? OH, I see the 50% rule. Yes, I see, make perfect sense. NOT! I will agree finances are more of an issue for the WC, but we are more interested in the NBRC National Championship and why men think the NBRC has a 50% rule. If a flyer wants to support the fly but has no birds or the hawks are bad, etc., donate to the auction, donate money to the region so men with birds, men who want to have their birds evaluated....can! There are lots of ways to "SUPPORT" the fly other than buying ghost kits. The WC has changed the rules, what once or twice? That is fine by me but the question I am addressing is the NBRC fly and the fact there is NO 50% flown rule. Would you like to address that?
Cliff
(Cliff, I'm not the one to talk to about this stuff , I am only pointing out what info that I remember from over the years)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1430 posts
Aug 29, 2008
12:59 PM
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Ken,
Those regions do not in fact "fund the whole fly" as you suggest. Not by a long shot. And, in fact, I have been campaigning for three years to eliminate the gray areas. We have clarified many, published as the Fly Policies in the last NBRC Bulletin, but we still have a ways to go. But I get shot down for trying to chage too much too fast....on the basis that "everything is just fine as it is. Why fix something that's not broke" I hear that so much I want to puke. That's why we are having these discussions. So you can express an opinion to your RD when it comes up for discussion. You HAVE registered for the list to be made aware of EC discussions haven't you? Or are you even a member?....seems like you said you are not...if not maybe you will want to re-consider so you can help make a difference. You won't do much good complaining from the outside.
What I am saying is: These NBRC regions do not all use the same understanding when it comes to these poorly written fly rules/ fly policy. In your region, the RD's made a decision based on their history. Someone did so it must be all right. The rules don't expressly forbid it so why not take advantage of this weakness in the rules? BESIDES THE WC DOES IT! I am not talking about the funding, I am taking about FLYING the kits you enter. What is wrong with that? The funding is exactly the same if you fly two kits and enter two kits, if you fly one kit and enter two or if you fly zero kits and enter two. We are going down a road to cyber flying by looking for ways to NOT FLY KITS MEN ENTER. Until the NBRC makes all regions adhere to one simple rule, this controversy will remain. How we understand that you don't have to, need to, or should fly the kits you enter is curious indeed. I remember several years ago Ken Easley volunteered to act as national fly director. He got on Earl's and laid down the law that only "kits flown" would count towards qualifiers. Guys got hot under the collar and strong language was heard. In the end, regions did as there always have. Some regions try to fly all kits entered, some regions try to get as many qualifiers as possible with little regard to how many kits are actually flown. If my grand daddy robbed banks does that make it right for me to? You guys make your own history and history will judge you for it. Send me the money and follow the rest of the rules and the NBRC will deal with any abuses they feel is warranted.... If any. I am sure all regions will do what they feel is in their best interests and abide by the letter and intent of the rules. You will fly ...or you will not...men use all sorts of excuses for not participating. I've seen them all, believe me.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2008 1:13 PM
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Scott
1118 posts
Aug 29, 2008
1:11 PM
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Scott,
I agree with you on small regions being given a break to get to fly one qualifier.....no problem. But to get a second qualifier, that region must have the kits. If not, we are subsidizing regions with money and we shouldn't be. To get two qualifiers, you should "INTEND" to fly 20 kits, pay for 20 and intend to fly 20. Is that too much of a burden? These small regions need a break 'till they get up and going, but don't expect me to say it's OK to get two qualifiers using the WC system in a NBRC sponsored fly. The next fly director may think it's just peachy.
Cliff
(Cliff, my feeling is and allways has been that if I don't have a second kit worthy of flying than I'm not going to waste the judges and RDs time with it.
As long as the rules allow I will continue to do what has allways been done in countless regions accross the country since the beginning.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2008 2:16 PM
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BA Rollers
35 posts
Aug 29, 2008
2:48 PM
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Kit entry fees pay for the fly from fly pins and score sheets to funding the entire logistics of the finals fly. It was determined a few years ago that without "extra" kit entries, the fly would financially fail. This is even more important now. Unless the club was to suddenly befriend a wealthy benefactor who would finance the fly, it is important that each region try to get as many paid kits as it can. One, to help fund the fly itself and Two, to get one more qualifer in the finals. Yes, each region should be responsible and suggest to each of its flyers that they "should" fly at least one of their kits. If you want to barter on ethics, simply kick out the second kit after the first kit is done scoring and DQ that kit and move on to the next flyer's house. There are many "work-arounds".
There are only a few choices
1. Let the club run out of money?
2. Find a fat cash friend to fund the fly?
3. Work within the flexibility of the rules to at least allow the club to still have a fly.
FYI, go to last year's FF qualifying scores. You will notice that only a very small portion DNF. I mean, a very small portion. If you were to conclude that all of the DQs were not kits that really shouldn't have been flown, you still would fall short of 50 percent. But for fun, combine the two and you end up with up to a 50 percent reduction in the funds paid to the club to finance the fly. Cut 50 percent of the income and the result is...????????? Doesn't take a brain scientist to figure it out.
You have to have some "bend" if you don't want to break when the wind blows.
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sundance
765 posts
Aug 29, 2008
6:23 PM
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Now I`m confused. Did someone else sign on as cliff??? Am I reading this wrong? So it is ok, due to the fact that the club needs the fly dues to finance the fly... which they do.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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dave
384 posts
Aug 29, 2008
8:06 PM
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When we start flying the bop are getting pretty heavy. It goes for the FF and the WC. They start moving in before the FF prelim and then they begin to move out during the WC prelim. If you don't believe me then read the FF finals report for me for last year. Guys in our region "intent" to fly but sometimes the bop make it so that they can not fly. Heck, I just lost my best '08 kit a couple of weeks ago that was induced by our sky friends.
Another big problem for us is getting judges in. It is almost impossible to get a judge that can get 2 weekends off and this is with guys not complaining about fly time. One reason we suggested that our southern fliers break off and form their own region. We can fly our 2nd kit but if they are not good enough then why waste the judges time. They have already given enough of their time and I'm sure they would like to get home as soon as possible.
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Scott
1120 posts
Aug 29, 2008
9:29 PM
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(expect me to say it's OK to get two qualifiers using the WC system in a NBRC sponsored fly. The next fly director may think it's just peachy.
Cliff )
Cliff,you have absolutly nothing to say about it, the rules are the rules and the W/C rules have nothing to do with anything, in fact like I said in an earlier post where the NBRC is concerned you don't even have to fly one kit.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ErnDog
7 posts
Aug 29, 2008
10:43 PM
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hey efren i have a question?so you would be flyin 2 kits for the same fly
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Ballrollers
1433 posts
Aug 30, 2008
6:25 PM
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Butch,
BA Rollers is not Ballrollers. He did not post his name.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1434 posts
Aug 30, 2008
6:26 PM
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Scott,
The NBRC RULES do NOT specifically allow or disallow, for entered kits NOT to be flown. The WC has specifically allowed 50% kits do not have to be flown. If you only have one good kit, enter one good kit. The regions do not pay the judge on the number of kits he judges....last I heard. If the second has few good performers, fly in the 11 bird fly. If that is not your cup of tea, see if you can get the second to at least kit and fly the time. It is only 20 minutes. Countless regions making choices based on weak, vague rules is NOT ALL regions. Not ALL regions try to look for ways not to fly kits, many if not countless, try to fly all kits entered. Which brings us back to "As long as the rules don't forbid it .... it must be fine so we will do it." Which is how we started his discussion. I hear the challenges back and forth put um up or shut up. Here, the NBRC offers a fly for men who wish to compete and what do we hear? WA Wa Wa The rules don't say we have to fly all the kits so I will just fly half the kits but I will enter two but just fly one cause then, our region will get more qualifiers. SO, to that I SAY.... PUT UM OR SHUT UP! What is good for one flyer is good for all the flyers. I realize I will never get through to you. But maybe a new RD or a man that may become an RD will read this discussion and someday he will encourage his flyers to take the high road they should "intend" to fly all kits entered and the qualifiers will have earned their place in the finals Honestly and fairly. Think about the regions where only 4 kits got scores, did that qualifier really earn his place in the finals? I know which regions play by the rules and which ones slither along. Where is the integrity in this sport? We have a fly, you can enter two kits. For every 10 kits entered you are allowed one qualifier. WHERE DOES IT SAY YOU GET A QUALIFIER FOR NOT FLYING KITS? But somewhere, sometime, some regional RD decided "let's interpret that to mean you don't have to fly your kits." We can get more qualifiers if we all enter two kits, it doesn't matter if you have two kits ... just pay for two kits. So we all think that is the way to act with pride integrity? Hmmm Sounds just like when Clinton said "I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN"..... Well, it depends on what your definition of SEX is. Here, what is your definition of the NBRC fly policy? Must the NBRC tell us that if you enter a kit you need to intend to fly that kit? Do we? Must we?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1435 posts
Aug 30, 2008
6:31 PM
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BA,
I agree with you up to a point. " Yes, each region should be responsible and suggest to each flyer that they "should" fly at least one of their kits." Where is your documentation to support that flying one kit if you enter two is fair and the intention of the NBRC fly policy? That is WC fly policy. I am not suggesting we bankrupt the NBRC, I am suggesting that the written NBRC Fly Policy does NOT give flyers the OK to not fly their kits. It is a mathematical fact you double your odds of winning by flying two kits. The only thing I am suggesting is that the flyer "INTEND" to fly the kits (kits) he enters. If things come up and he can not fly , there is no penality. It is a function of the primary purpose of having a fly.... to fly kits. We have gotten so tangled up in the QUALIFIERS, we are lossing sight of competition. The fewer kits flown in these regions the less the competition. Is that what we want? Is that what the NBRC "INTENDED" when they wrote the fly policy the way they did? The NBRC Chose NOT to go the way the WC did, if that is what they wanted, the NBRC would have a 50% kits flown policy.... WE DO NOT but men continue to say it's fine to do so. Many many regions do ask men to fly all the kits they enter. It is the right thing to do to EARN the qualifiers. We have regions paying for qualifiers who have NOT EARNED that position by fairly competing with all the kits entered. If we had fewer qualifiers in the finals , the cost would have to be less to the NBRC. What is in-flexable about asking men who fly, to INTEND to fly their kits? What is in-flexable about publicly frowning on the idea Ghost kits are fair and proper? If we are not going to fairly compete for the right to fly in the finals...... Let's raffle off chances to men in each region who want to fly in the finals. We may find another way to fund these flys? Every man would have the right to buy as many tickets as he could afford. That sounds fair to me inlight of the way it is done now. The NBRC may find themselves rolling in big bucks. Maybe BINGO cards, each man buy cards and the first to bingo, is a qualifier. Don't forget darts, darts are fun too. Feel that breeze from this ol' blowhard? Nothing will break if men who enter the fly, actually TRY to fly their kits.... will it? NO! Just more kits will be flown that entered. That's all. OR petition the NBRC to adopt the 50% kits flown rule and make what is now going on legal. Hmmm Think about that implication.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1436 posts
Aug 30, 2008
7:00 PM
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Here's your Bulldung, Scott. NBRC 2007 FF
Both 11 and 20 are included in the qualifiers where both are flown:
Region, Qualifiers, DNF
13, 1, 0
14, 2, 7
1A, 1, 4
1B, 2, 0
1D, 2, 3
3A, 3, 3
3B, 2, 2
4, 2, 2
5, 2, 0
6, 3, 4
7A, 2, 1
7B, 2, 3
7C, 2, 1
8A, 2, 1
8B, 2, 8
9A, 4, 2
9B, 2, 10
9D, 3, 5
9G, 2, 6
Totals: 18 regions, 41 Qualifiers, 62 DNF, 3.4 DNF, average per region 1.5 DNF average per qualifier As you can see, we do not have DNF kits subsidizing the fly. A few regions could do better, OR they are not enjoying the same understanding as most regions, and many regions make every effort to fly the kits entered. Regions 9A and 9B are particularly interesting because of the graphic differences in the average DNF per qualifier. 9A averaged .5 DNF per qualifier where 9B averaged 5 DNF's per qualifier. 9A is 10 times more efficient in flying their kits than 9B. Although statistics can lead us to questionable conclusions, they can also show things we might need to take a closer look at. In defense of 9B, the weather could have disrupted the fly or other things could account for the highest average DNF in the NBRC. If we continue to see figures such as this 2-3-5 years down the road, then maybe we need to take a closer look at.
Cliff
PS Sorry guys. When I posted this all my nice verticle columns get compressed. I hope it makes some sense. I can't figure out how to fix it.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 9:20 AM
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sundance
769 posts
Aug 30, 2008
7:04 PM
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LOL ... How do some of these threads get started anyway???
Cliff, sorry about getting confused between yourself and Ba rollers.
You asked how bad it would be if everyone who entered 2 kits actually flew 2 kits.
In some cases it would mean more time on the road away from home for the judge. A couple years ago I traveled our region with the judge. 5 states and most of a week. I`m glad there was nobody flying a made up kit just for the sake of flying a second kit, that they knew they had no chance of being competitive with.
Also, on this particular trip, money was tight. So anyone "donating" money in the name of a second kit, I`m sure was very appreciated.
There is undoubtably 2 sides to this story, maybe even 3. More kits entered means more Qualifiers. But extra kits entered also helps with the expense of traveling for the judge. Then there is the moral issue, which looks to be the peg you are hanging your hat on ,Cliff. It is honorable. But I look at it like this, ... would changing the rules make the fly, or the club any better?
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Scott
1122 posts
Aug 31, 2008
7:14 AM
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(You asked how bad it would be if everyone who entered 2 kits actually flew 2 kits.
In some cases it would mean more time on the road away from home for the judge. A couple years ago I traveled our region with the judge. 5 states and most of a week. I`m glad there was nobody flying a made up kit just for the sake of flying a second kit, that they knew they had no chance of being competitive with.
Also, on this particular trip, money was tight. So anyone "donating" money in the name of a second kit, I`m sure was very appreciated.
There is undoubtably 2 sides to this story, maybe even 3. More kits entered means more Qualifiers. But extra kits entered also helps with the expense of traveling for the judge. Then there is the moral issue, which looks to be the peg you are hanging your hat on ,Cliff. It is honorable. But I look at it like this, ... would changing the rules make the fly, or the club any better? )
Butch you just hammered that one, and that is it in a nutshell
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1123 posts
Aug 31, 2008
9:15 AM
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Cliff, maybe you should straighten out your own region first, going by what you have been harping on your own region shouldn't have had a qualifier in either the 20 bird or the 11 bird as only eight actualy flew in the 20 bird , and only nine flew in the 11 bird, plus to top it off one of your DNF in the 20 bird is a "Ghost" flyer.
But the fact is all of this is nothing more than "your" RD getting the maximum amount of qualifiers under the rules.
Here is your regions regional report below
Region 1D
Regional Director: Julian Yandle
20 Bird judged by Jay Yandle
(10 kits) Name Depth Quality Score
Charlie Stack (qualified) 1.40 1.50 1029.00
Clifton Ball 1.30 1.40 485.94
Clay Hoyle 1.30 1.40 134.68
Charlie Stack - kit 2 1.20 1.20 129.60
Don Simpson 1.40 1.40 88.20
Chuck Ball 1.00 1.10 28.60
Chuck Ball - kit 2 1.20 1.20 7.20
Joe Bob Stuka DQ
Allan Miller DNF
Sandy Hoyle DNF
11 Bird judged by Wendall Carter
(10 kits) Name Score
Clifton Ball (qualified) 351.00
Clay Hoyle 296.00
Don Simpson 157.00
Joe Bob Stuka 79.00
Frank Canup 62.00
Jerry Allen 7.00
Marty Belk DQ
Julian Yandle - kit 2 DQ
Julian Yandle DQ
Jerry Allen DNF
(Your regions W/C below of which YOU are the RD of , your 2nd qualifier came from the DNF, maybe your region "also" wants theier qualifiers alowed to them under the rules )
Southeast Region Judge - Wendell Carter
Name Breaks Quality Depth Total
Cliff Ball #1 7-5-7-5-5-6-8-8-6-5-6-11-5-5-5-5-7-5-7-6-8-513-7-7-8-5-6-5-7-10-16-12-9-5 1.4 1.5 682.50
Joe Bob Stuka #1 5-5-9-6-12-6-5-5-5-13-16-14-7 1.5 1.5 402.75
Charlie Stack #1 6-6-8-5-7-8-5-7-8-6-8-7 1.3 1.3 253.5
Clay Hoyle#1 12-5-8-6-8-5-7-5-6-11-5-5 1.5 1.4 222.6
Charlie Stack #2 7-6-5-5-11-8-5-7-11-7-7-6-5 1.2 1.3 174.72
Joe Bob Stuka #2 9-6-5-5-7-5-6-5-6-9-6 1.3 1.3 116.61
Chuck Ball #1 6-11-8-8-11 1.2 1.3 102.96
Joe Mitchell #1 7-5-7-12-7-6-5-7 1.2 1.2 97.92
Don Simpson #2 9-9-6-6-7 1.4 1.5 77.7
Dennis Cook #1 5-5-6-8-9-5 1.2 1.2 54.72
Mike Mullis #1 6-5-8-5-6-6 1.2 1.2 51.84
Jay Yandle #1 7-6-5-5 1.2 1.2 33.12
Ned Phillips #1 6-6-5-6 1.2 1.2 33.12
Marty Belk #1 5-5 1.1 1.1 12.1
Tim Dover 0
Nathan Ball #1 DQ
Nathan Ball #2 DNF
Toby Brady#1 DQ
Toby Brady #2 DNF
Frank Canup#1 DQ
Frank Canup #2 DNF
Don Simpson #1 DQ
Cliff Ball #2 DNF
Clay Hoyle #2 DNF
Joe MItchell #2 DNF
Chuck Ball #2 DNF
Dennis Cook #2 DNF
Mike Mullis #2 DNF
Jay Yandle #2 DNF
Ned Phillips #2 DNF
Marty Belk #2 DNF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 9:37 AM
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SpinCityRollers
149 posts
Aug 31, 2008
9:31 AM
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LOL very funny I love the soap opera
It all there in black and white
To be ContinueD
LMAO
MAdmax
www.spincityrollers.com
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Scott
1124 posts
Aug 31, 2008
9:48 AM
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Here is a quate from him Max
(The NBRC sponsors a fly for men who want to fly, not for men who want to manipulate qualifiers.)
I gotta be honest,this isn't the first time I have sat here scratching my head LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1438 posts
Aug 31, 2008
9:51 AM
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Scott,
Thank you. You made my point precisely. We are talking about the NBRC, not the World Cup. The World Cup rule states that only 50% of the kits must be flown. My region abides by that rule. Men automatically transpose the WC rules to the NBRC competition, just as you are doing in attempting to muddy the waters in a pitiful effort to discredit me, rather than dealing with the issue....in typical Scott Campbell style! In my region's NBRC fly we had two DNFs in the 20-bird and one in the 11-bird. We are not talking about eliminating DNFs completely. There will always be flyers who get hit hard by hawks, have things come up in their personal lives, etc. and there will always be a few DNFs in a region. Those neither subsidize the fly nor are they unethical because the men INTENDED to fly. It's the 3 or 4 regions who automatically sign every flyer up for two kits, never intending to fly the second, and whether or not they even have a second kit, in an NBRC fly that are being unfair to the rest, that we are discussing.
As I pointed out 1D NBRC had 2 Qualifiers and 3 DNF'S. The average is 3.4 DNF's per region, nationally. I also stated some regions had a little over the average some a little over the average. There is nothing wrong with what I posted. The figures speak for themselves. Same with the WC a 50% kits flown minimum was followed. If you do not understand, I cannot make this any clearer. I hope Your RD can figure this out. What ever happens, it's the RD's responsibility to bring to the NBRC EC any problems they may observe as to the Honor system being violated when it comes to if an excessive number of kits were not flown and it appears that a region has knowingly entered kits just to get a qualifier they don't really deserve. As you can see from last years NBRC fly, a majority of the regions DNF's were within the average. That means to me the RD's are doing a great job in policing themselves and making sure they "INTEND" to fly all kits entered.
Still scratchin'?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 10:00 AM
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Ballrollers
1439 posts
Aug 31, 2008
10:06 AM
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Scott,
Why did I know that would be your response? Please let me paraphrase what your statement says to me: "My region will be getting as many qualifiers as the vague, non- specific rules allow us to get away with. We will bend the rules to suit us, for there is no one to make us tow the line. The WC allows for 50% of the kits to go unflown and still count towards the qualifier. I helped pass that rule and I will use it in the NBRC competition as well,'til someone passes a rule to stop me. And when I am confronted by this unethical behavior, I will attack any individual who does so, rather than confront the real issue." Smile....
Cliff
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Scott
1125 posts
Aug 31, 2008
10:18 AM
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Cliff,
It isn't a gray area at all, the NBRC uses kits paid and not kits flown,which even your own region took advantage of including useing a ghost flyer , Cliff these "are" the
rules whether you or I or anyone else like's it.
Cliff, if it bothers you this much than I suggest that you bring it to the committee to change the rules, and while you are at it you may want to figure out how to make up the lost revenue or your proposal to them will go no-where.
Personaly I could care less regardless of which way it goes, but you for one should be aware of the rules, obviously you aren't,and you are trying to pass bunk info as you have no power to dictate policy or changing rules .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 1:06 PM
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sundance
774 posts
Aug 31, 2008
1:31 PM
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I just figured out why I continue to sit and read these kinds of threads, while LMAO.!!!
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Ballrollers
1440 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:17 PM
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Guys,
There are reasons the NBRC puts out the stats for each region after each fly. As you can see from this thread, it becomes painfully obvious who is, and who is not, manipulating the number of qualifiers every time a discussion of this issue occurs. It's all about chalkin' up Master Flyer points. Qualify for a region because your region bought your way in and you get MF points. Simple as that. But I can tell you that the NBRC will only act if forced to. Like Scott said, I have no power to change anything alone. It will be up to each region to see the NBRC fly policy is followed to the best of their ability.....so Master Flyer points really mean something. It is fine to maximize a region's kits paid within limits. There is no shame in posting a DNF for legitimate reasons. Those who are the worst offenders will call them all ghost kits to try to legitimize what they do. If you think that should include a region who has triple the average DNF's.....?? If you think it's fair that the ten men in your region are a little short on cash, so they fly ten kits and get one qualifier and Region X flies 10, but has the cash to pay for 20 or 30, so they get two or three qualifiers.....if that squares with you.....so be it. If not, you need to complain to your RD, e-mail me, or your President Jay Yandle. Then, and only then, can action be taken. The proof is found in the stats provided. All I can provide is the knowledge. It is up to you to provide the understanding and the action.
Cliff.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 2:32 PM
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Ballrollers
1441 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:24 PM
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Scott,
If your understanding of the NBRC fly policy is correct, then why is the national average for DNFs only 3 and not 10? I bet every region would love to get an extra unearned qualifier. I wonder why they don't? Can anyone explain to us here, why every region does not have 10 DNFs for an NBRC FLY? I will bet the farm that if any new or old NBRC region, paid for 10 kits, flew one and the rest were Ghost kits.... Something would change. Try it, see what happens. See if the rest of the regions let you get away with it. Like I said this is "OUR" fly, you men are responsible for keeping the integrity alive. The WC was forced to make changes. No difference here, push the limits of fairness and see if we have a few good men that know right from wrong. Scott, if you have documentation in writing that states what you say is true.... Show me! I have been over the NBRC bylaws, fly rules and fly policy and nothing supports your claim. The only thing that you keep saying that is correct , is that the WC fly rules accept 50% kits flown. We are not discussing the WC , sorry.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1442 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:35 PM
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We have a few RD's on this list. Before I see a need to seek clarification from the NBRC EC on this interesting concept from Scott. I would like to see if there is any support for changing the NBRC fly policy from what it is now to something more easily understood? From the stats from last years fly, I feel a majority of the regions are understanding and abiding by the current NBRC fly policy, quite nicely. If that is incorrect, let me hear from those RD's now! (Either right here or privately.) We have the WC history to draw from to show how regions will, naturally, try to maximize their qualifiers by entering kits either unflown or unreal. Is this what we want the NBRC to become? It will have to be addressed in the Master Flyer points and we may have to find a way to see that points are awarded by kits flown only. The MF program is not concerned with funds or anything like that. This program is based on recognizing competition. Kits not flown and ghost kits should not count towards MF points. SHOULD THEY? Have we fallen this far?
Cliff
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Scott
1126 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:38 PM
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(Scott,
If your understanding of the NBRC fly policy is correct, then why is the national average for DNFs only 3 and not 10? I bet every region would love to get an extra unearned qualifier. I wonder why they don't? )
The bulk of them do Cliff,including your own, you only pay for what you need, if you need four(example) for that extra qualifier than it is fuitless to pay for more.
In your regions case even a ghost flyer was used to get that number,which is well within the rules for the NBRC.
You guys used the rules to your advantage the same as we and many other regions did, and yet you still want to spin it,quit digging bud or at least find out whether you know what you are talking about or not.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2008 2:53 PM
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Scott
1127 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:42 PM
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(The MF program is not concerned with funds or anything like that. This program is based on recognizing competition. Kits not flown and ghost kits should not count towards MF points. SHOULD THEY? Have we fallen this far?)
If you want to bring master flyer points in on this, lets also get the 11 bird finals points being the same as the 20 bird finals points loophole shut also !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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