bman
608 posts
Sep 03, 2008
7:32 AM
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Some one posted above about wasting a judges time with a kit that doesn't have a chance! Well in two weeks I am flying in the regionals,maybe I shouldn't waste the judges time since this is my first fly and I know I don't have a chance! Guess wanting to support the fly and meet some roller men doesn't count for much!
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Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2008 7:33 AM
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maxspin
250 posts
Sep 03, 2008
8:02 AM
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Ron,
The statement about not wasting a judges time is for the most part about the 2nd kit flown. On the West Coast the BOP don't even leave most of us enough birds to fly (1) good kit.
When I put up my 2nd kit for the world cup regional this year it was all 08 birds. The judge asked me which of the (20) kits I wanted judged! LOL!
I push every year to get guys to fly in the big fly's whether they think they are ready or competitive. Therefore I will lead by example and put up (2) kits no matter what I have to put up.
Now if the schedule was tight I would be honest about what made up the 2nd kit. I would take the DNF if it would get the next flyer a better fly time.
Keith Maxwell
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bman
609 posts
Sep 03, 2008
8:56 AM
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Thanks Keith, my region is apparently scraping bottom trying to get flyers that I know are out there. And my RD never question the fact that I am three hours one way out of the way. I am thrilled to be able to fly and have the judge's opinion on my birds,good or bad.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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fhtfire
1483 posts
Sep 03, 2008
9:26 AM
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Ron,
I was talking about the second kit...not the first kit...the first kit you are flying no matter what...unless you dont have enough birds or BOP rip you up. Our region has traveled hours to watch new fliers fly. In out region you are flying your first kit regardless..unless you plain cant....we will NEVER not show up because of inferior kits or new fliers.....Sorry I should have clarified...now you second kit to me is optional....and we leave it up to the flier...if I dont get a phone call telling me otherwise..we will be at the fliers house for the second kit....
This is what usually happens...we fly everyones first kit.....Scott Campbell has 800pts...Dwight Wallace has 650....Ken Firl 525....then Joe Smoe has a B-team kit and he is 1hr drive from Sac..and calls me up..hay Paul..dont waste your fuel buddy..I am not flying my second kit....there is no way they will score that many points..I know my birds...they are just a bunch of young birds.....no problem Joe...Hey thanks for putting up you 1 st kit....blah blah....that is how it works....or We get the call like Chuck ROE...who ALWAYS FLIES>...Paul...I have been torn up by hawks..I shut down...I cant fly....DNF..due to bird of prey...still counts.....
If a new flier calls me and says Hey Paul...I want to fly my second kit..I know I wont win...but I want the judge to check out my birds...No prob...we will be there at 0830 as scheduled...Thanks...even if they are on the edge of our region.
WE NEVER TELL PEOPLE THEY ARE NOT FLYING>>IT IS UP TO THE FLIER TO LET US KNOW>>>AND THAT IS SECOND KIT ONLY>>>FIRST KITS YOU FLY NO MATTER WHAT.....Now a couple years ago...I flew both kits...because my A team was on a windy day...and the scores were low....SO I flew my B-team...ONLY because the scores were low and if I got lucky they may do AOK..well they choked..but I had to try...now if the scores were were high...I would have called and said dont waist your fuel......and I too have done that....
Ron...we have lots of new fliers and bring them in with open arms...so no problem....We have even had fliers give another person a kit becuase one flier lost all there birds....Scott C did that for me...Gave me a whole kit..just so I could fly...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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bman
610 posts
Sep 03, 2008
10:03 AM
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Paul,thanks for the clarification. I really don't have a dog in this fight but if my RD told me I would have to pay for two kits to enable me to fly I would.JMO
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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bman
611 posts
Sep 03, 2008
10:07 AM
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Paul, by the way the lavender hen of Tony's you had for a awhile (I think it was you) I got a 4 month old hen out of her that is really looking good.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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J_Star
1730 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:13 AM
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Cliff,
If I could make it to the convention, can I hook up with you guys?
I am purchasing new home that will close at the end of Sept and moving in after that. So I don't know if I am going to be able to make it this year :( but I am debating and it will be just myself this time!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2008 11:13 AM
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Ballrollers
1468 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:30 AM
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That would be awesome, Jay! We are meeting in DFW at the airport on Wednesday, arriving between noon and 2 o'clock. I will have a rental car and we will all pack up and head to Austin (Rick Mee's). We'll find a local motel Wednesday and begin flying more birds Thursday AM, then head back to Dallas and the convention Thursday evening. Let me know if you can schedule your arrival during that time. If not, we can hook up somewhere else. Keep me posted.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1469 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:35 AM
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Way to go, Keith. That's all anyone can ask. You've got a great attitude! Hey, when are you ready for me to ship your birds?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1470 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:42 AM
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Scott,
"Kits entered" could mean kits paid OR kits flown. Is the glass half full or half empty? The NBRC only asks that each region treat every other region fairly and all regions use the same procedure to arrive at the number of qualifiers they enter in the finals. To do that the NBRC gave us this fly policy. Most but not all regions, interpret this correctly, most regions look to get their kits in the air before a judge. In this case, I would suggest ....Let YOUR CONSCIENCE BE YOUR GUIDE. Each RD must make this choice. I am dealing with this here because you made an off the cuff remark that the NBRC does not expect men to try to fly. You know that is not correct. This kits paid/kits flown controversy has been around for a number of years. The NBRC has never addressed this issue, no need to. Most regions fly as many kits as they can, we can't improve on that. The NBRC addressed the entire set of fly rules and fly policy 2005-2006 and did not see the need to change the fly policy. The few problems seen are regional in nature and can be solved regionally. The NBRC tries to stay out of regional problems. But there is also a need to air these things out every once in a while, let the RD's understand the fly policy from different points of view, understand their responsibilities to their region and all the other regions.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1471 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:48 AM
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Scott,
My "opinion" seems to be shared by a large majority of the NBRC regions, as is clearly evident by the 2007 FF average DNF'S. Or were reported to be DNF'S. I am, here, discussing different methods to understand the NBRC fly policy. It is an issue that was brought up during this thread. It takes two to discuss an issue. If you felt it was something that should not be discussed here (for what ever reason you are insinuating)...... you should have E-mailed me privately and we could have had a private chat. Silly me, having a discussion on a discussion forum. LOL!We have RD's on this forum, we have future RD's on this forum. We have flyers on this forum, we have future flyers on this forum. These are issues that they will face at one time or another. They need to have more of an explanation than just "our region has always done it this way and we do it this way." They need to know there is a "right way" and a "not so right way" to secure their qualifiers. Let the men see these issues now so they can make up their own minds on how they want to handle these issues; these things that some sought to figure out. These RD decisions not only affect their regions but indirectly affect all the NBRC regions. The NBRC is only as strong as its weakest region. Choices!......
Cliff
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Scott
1144 posts
Sep 03, 2008
11:58 AM
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The NBRC only asks that each region treat every other region fairly and all regions use the same procedure to arrive at the number of qualifiers they enter in the finals. To do that the NBRC gave us this fly policy.
You are making things up as you go as you don't have a clue what the policy is,which is why this all of this is a futile exercise.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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maxspin
252 posts
Sep 03, 2008
12:30 PM
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Hmmm……
Ron,
Did I read that correct?
Your RD is FORCING you to pay for (2) kits?
Now that may raise a red flag!!!
Keith
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Ballrollers
1472 posts
Sep 03, 2008
12:46 PM
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Ron,
Congrats on intending to fly. Not only will you be supporting you region, meeting the guys and the judge, you will get an evaluation of your kit and a keepsake by way of an NBRC fly pin. With each fly you will learn more and more about your birds and how to get the most they have to offer, and you will begin to bring your breeding program into focus. You will make mistakes and you will learn from them. For a man who wants to learn this sport, the entry fee is well spent. I have had poor scores but never a poor time.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1473 posts
Sep 03, 2008
12:52 PM
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Scott,
Sounds to me like Paul (as well as several of these other guys) has a good understanding of the NBRC fly policy. He has not once said "you don't have to fly any of your kits, not even one." He has encouraged all flyers to fly one kit and fly the second if time permits and if the flyer wants to fly it. I think that is exactly the spirit of the NBRC policy. No one should have any problems with that. If I am making this up, I guess most all the other regions are making it up too. How weird is that? I don't understand how we have this "FLY OR DIE," PUT UM OR SHUT UP" MY BIRDS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR BIRDS, and when a fly comes along, some scramble to look for reasons not to fly the kits they entered. Why enter? Want to support the fly? Send a check to the NBRC for expenses, but let the regions earn their qualifiers the old fashion way.......... FLY your kits or at least intend to fly your kits. Either one works. What is not acceptable is using the WC rules of 50% kits flown, to fly in the NBRC. Different contests, different rules, different fly policy....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1474 posts
Sep 03, 2008
12:55 PM
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Scott,
This long list of posts are not excuses, nor are they futile in any way. They are explanations and discussions designed to help others understand the NBRC fly policy. The only excuses I am hearing are those from you, and why you don't accept the fact the NBRC has no 50% kits flown rule. I believe the WC does, though. But I think you already know that. LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2008 12:57 PM
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Ballrollers
1477 posts
Sep 03, 2008
1:34 PM
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Keith,
There is probably a good reason for requiring somebody to fly two kits...usually it's distance the judge has to travel and cost-related. We have some large regions that have different requirements for their flyers. I have heard some require 3 kits need to be entered to make it worthwhile to send a judge to an outlying area. It is a function of the judge's time, also. There is no one way to define how each region meets the requirements of their flyers. Some regions are small and flyer dense. What works for them may not work in a large multi-state region where flyers are thinly-scattered. In fact, some flyers fly in adjoining regions because of the distance between lofts. And worst case scenario; some flyers are so far away from any other flyer, they are not invited to fly with anybody. As was brought up on this thread, money often influences the time and distance covered by the fly.
Cliff
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Scott
1145 posts
Sep 03, 2008
1:42 PM
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Cliff, let see how that policy works,this year I'm paying for two kits and flying only one,I refuse to waste any ones time on a second kit,if the policy is stated than this should be against the rules,but it isn't so I will be paying for two and flying one,I refuse to lie or bullshit about it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Square
450 posts
Sep 03, 2008
3:00 PM
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Ballroller thanx for your input.. I know you two guys are guality and sometimes it takes a diffrence in opion to see eye to eye. scott I mett you a the Thundrer bird show a couple of weeks ago... and thanx agin for the snoose,,,, LOL I will have a full can of your flavor when I see U agin hopefull it in my back yard... LOL.. you folks need to look at the big picture... Im a "esel" a blank piece of paper in this sport,, you guys can groom me an have, withen reason to this post and all the info you provide..All I want is to make this right so that we/I am not looked at as someone trying to get over in this sport, For the sake of flying rollers. all is in order as far as us fourming this region... I will send out the paper work the first of next week.. We have the flyers... and the commitment.. I truly respect you guys and hope to see you sooner... thanx for your time..
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Ballrollers
1478 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:41 PM
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Scott,
The NBRC knows full well the hardships that can be involved in men's lives. It is not fair to a small region to set up a finals, get a judge, have exactly the right number of kits to get one qualifier... and at the last minute a guy must pull out. His wife gets sick, a kid must go to the doctor, the guy is called in to work or out of town, any number of good reasons. So should the other men in this fly suffer, should this region not get a qualifier? The NBRC says they should get a qualifier. All flyers intended to fly so the DNF is counted towards the qualifier numbers. Usually the DNF's are small in numbers, in the FF 2007 the national average was a little over 3 kits per region. Even my region had 3 kits that could not be flown for one reason or another. We have to have a way to bend to these unpredictable things that come up. That's life! From what your RD said, your region understands the NBRC fly policy as it was intended. I am beginning to think we are arguing over semantics and not differences of opinions.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1479 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:43 PM
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Scott,
In our region, a DNF, is a flyer who has a kit, wants to fly that kit, intended to fly that kit when he entered, but due to any number of reasons, he could not fly his kit or kits. A ghost kit is a kit that either does not exist or was never intended to fly. This more aptly applies to the WC, where men enter kits they know they do not intend to fly. The WC allows for this within their 50% flown rules. The NBRC does not address this issue other than rely on RD's integrity to see that the understood reasons for a fly is carried out to the best of their ability. To paraphrase the NBRC fly policy: You are allowed as many Qualifiers as you can enter kits, that are intended to be flown. For every 10 kits, you get one qualifier. Is that simple enough? Does the NBRC fly policy specifically state this? NO! But enough understand as I have paraphrased it, to where it is not a big problem as shown by the 2007 stats. There are a few regions that experienced poor conditions and did not fly as many as "INTENDED." But the sprit of fly policy was upheld.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1480 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:47 PM
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Scott,
The Fly Policy will work the same this year as last year, and the year before that and the year before that. Your RD will educate your NBRC members, of the NBRC Fly Policy to the best of his ability. The honor system only works if you want it to. You do not have to lie or bullshit about anything, anytime. Most all the other regions, can fly or intend to fly the kits entered, but you seem to need things to be your way and have misunderstood the NBRC fly policy. I have tried every way I know how to get through to you. It is an integrity thing Scotty, you either got it or you don't, you either fly by the NBRC fly policy or you don't. You are the only one involved in your decision and only you will be held responsible for your action. The only man you must answer to is the guy in the mirror. Enjoy the NBRC FLY and good luck with your kit.
Cliff
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Scott
1146 posts
Sep 03, 2008
9:03 PM
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Good luck to you also Cliff.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1488 posts
Sep 03, 2008
9:28 PM
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Ron,
I put her on a Half mort Half Ruby Lavender cock that is the best bird I have bred to date...and I just pulled a hen out of the A team and put her in the stock loft from that hen...She was Black w w/f...so she is 3/4 Ruby....and was a rocket....I do have 3 more birds in my Ateam from that hen..she was dynomite. Anyway..I put that cock she was with on his grandmother and put the offspring form that hen on her uncle...so I am really excited...anyway that lavender hen of Tonys passes on the motor..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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kcfirl
483 posts
Sep 04, 2008
6:23 AM
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Cliff,
I have spoken directly to every Fall fly director for the last 10 years and they have all said something slightly different. It used to actually be encouraged for guys to enter kits with no intention of flying anything,! (to support the club).
Now you are changing the policy again based on your respectfully limited understanding of how we got to where we are and slander those of us that have been through this much longer than you have.
I am out of the Fall fly until you get your act together.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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J_Star
1733 posts
Sep 04, 2008
6:44 AM
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Ken, with all due respect, seems like when you disagree with things about the FF in this forum, you always throw your threat to pull out of the FF!! I have been on this forum for a long time to notice this behavior. How is that supporting the club or the fly as you claim!!!
Cliff, I confirmed my hotel and airline reservation. I will be arriving at DFW on Wednesday 15th at 10:45 am. I will be waiting for you guys to arrive. I will be sending you an email for the details.
Jay
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bman
612 posts
Sep 04, 2008
7:04 AM
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Keith, no what I meant was if that is what was needed I wouldn't have a problem paying for two. Anyway one kit $40
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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bman
613 posts
Sep 04, 2008
7:06 AM
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Paul,This little hen is 4 months old and doing 20-25ft fast.I have lock her down to next year,couldn't stand to lose her.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
1481 posts
Sep 04, 2008
7:50 AM
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Ken,
You have already told us you are not an NBRC member. You have your reasons, I am sure, but this thread started AFTER you said you quit. Therefore, your coming or going, has nothing to do with me, so don't try to lay the guilt trip thing on me. I am sure your RDs are correct about what they said. But as you remember, just a few years back when Ken Easley made his mark on this position and informed the club that it would be "kits Flown." Like I earlier stated, the fly policy has had its "REGIONAL UNDERSTANDING" passed down from RD to RD. If your RD decided that 50% kits flown is what he liked.... that is what was passed on... Right or wrong. Not all regions have the same understanding. That is made quite obvious from the 2007 stats and the average number of DNF'S. I can understand the use of DNF's in small regions trying to get one qualifier. What I don't understand is the need for half the kits to get DNF'S to get the second qualifier....... Unless there are extenuating circumstances. To me, that indicates a region simply buying a qualifier and that qualifier has not earned that position fairly competing against the other kits flown in that region. The WC condones that behavior, the NBRC has a fly policy. There is a difference. If all regions had the option to buy a qualifier, this would be a non issue. A majority of NBRC regions adhere to the NBRC fly policy. It works if the region wants it to. Like you stated before, each National Fly director has his own twist of the fly policy. Looking at the DNF stats from 2007, my position is the norm and not the exception. Good luck with your birds in your backyard, Ken.
Cliff
P.S. My "limited understanding" is based on my experience in several roller organizations; in a large number of responsibilities I have taken on in the last four years; my third year as National Fly Director; participation in local, national, and international flys during that time; attending every NBRC convention during that time; participation in roller flys all accross the east coast; visiting the lofts of roller men all accross the country; vigorous participation on a number of internet roller discussion sites; hours of discussion that resulted from all of the above and the years and years of experience from various RD's in my area....not bragging, just refuting your accusations. And just as you got your "understanding " based on the RD's before you ... same here. The big difference is clearly seen in the DNF's from the last FF. If one of us is wrong, I want to be with those who I feel are supporting the NBRC fly policy as I do .... And as long as I am in the majority, I feel my position is grounded in fact. It is FLY POLICY not fly rules! Look, Paul is probably going to fly more than 50% of his kits if he can. All that is asked, is that he TRY. Last time I looked that is not slanderous.
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2008 9:33 AM
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kcfirl
484 posts
Sep 04, 2008
8:48 AM
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Cliff,
my understanding is not from previous RD's, it's from direct discussions to attempt to clarify the rules with national fly directors going back to 1999. Half the RD's have no idea what the rules are and have never taken the time to read them.
I thought I was seeing positive steps being taken by the current NBRC administration, but you have convinced me otherwise.
It's no guilt trip, it's just a simple statement that I do not wish to be associated with a competition run in such a manner. A supposed national competition wherein the national fly director makes up rules as he goes.
Regards,
Ken
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Ballrollers
1482 posts
Sep 04, 2008
9:02 AM
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Ken,
If you can read all of this thread and still prefer to parrott what Scott has said rather than thinking for yourself, then best of luck to you. I don't make the rules. We have merely been clarifying the difference between NBRC and WC rules on this issue. Incidentally, you should know that the previous World Cup GC, Dave Szabatura was furious over the number of ghost kits posted by this same region year before last. He felt the region should be disqualified at the time, as did some of the other RDs in the World Cup. It was decided that the issue would be tabled and brought up to be settled, after the competition was over. Then Operation High Roller hit, Dave resigned and the issue was not brought up again. So there are many men throughout the hobby who do not support the idea of ghost kits.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2008 9:03 AM
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Ballrollers
1483 posts
Sep 04, 2008
9:41 AM
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Jay,
That sounds terrific! I am looking forward to spending some time with you again, and seeing some good kits together! You will arrive first...Don Simpson comes in at noon. So grab some lunch at the airport and meet us in the American Airlines baggage claim area. The rest of us will arrive at 2:30 from Greensboro on American. I have a mini-van reserved for us through Enterprise. See if you can find out where they are located in the airport while you are waiting! That will save us some time. I'll have a GPS to get us to Rick Mee's place.
Cliff
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J_Star
1738 posts
Sep 04, 2008
10:43 AM
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Cliff,
Excellent. I will be coming on US Airways at terminal E. What terminal are you guys getting off at! I will check with Enterprise for the info. I am excited about getting together again with you guys. It will be fun.
Jay
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kcfirl
485 posts
Sep 04, 2008
12:29 PM
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Cliff,
I don't support the idea of ghost kits either. Too bad the rules are so ambiguous that ghost kits have become the norm through the interpretation f the rules by previous fly directors and now you, the current National fly director feels he can change them on a whim.
That's the part I can't put up with.
Ken
PS. The WC is a different fly that you have no jurisdiction. Please just work on clarifying, communicating, and publishing the current rules in written form. As opposed to legislation by whatever idea pops into your head.
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Ballrollers
1484 posts
Sep 04, 2008
12:37 PM
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Ken,
"By-Laws of the World Cup Roller Fly
(adopted Fall 1995, revised November 2006)
I. A region must enter a minimum of 15 paid kits to qualify as an independent entity. At the discretion of the particular region, a flyer may enter a maximum of 2 kits composed of completely different birds as long as other flyers are not disadvantaged by the schedule. Each flyer is allowed to pay and fly 2 kits but each flyer must fly at least one kit out of the 2 entered. If a flyer has paid for a kit or kits but due to circumstances is unable to fly he must notify the judge as to the reason, or his paid kit or kits cannot be used for the number of kits for a fly-off representative. Each region must fly a minimum of 50 percent of the kits entered for each fly-off representative, (an example is: 8 flyers paying for 2 kits each equals 16 kits which equal one fly-off representative, 15 flyers paying 2 kits equals 2 fly-off representatives, etc.) NO REGION MAY PAY FOR ANY GHOST FLYERS (my caps), and each region must turn in a fly report......."
I don't post bullshit, Ken. And Scott's labelling anything that he disagrees with as bullshit or irrlevant doesn't make it so. Hell, I rarely post my personal opinon on a subject. I back up 90% of what I say with statistics and references. Yes, I make mistakes and am generally called on it when I do. That's a good thing. And my only agenda is to refute the myths that Scott and Billings try to perpetuate about my family of rollers. And as Fly Directror, my agenda is to make sure that the compeititon is a level playing field and that everyone understands the policies and rules, and recommend to the EC that they modified if they are too ambiguous. I'm sorry if you can't live with that, but that's the way it will be as long as I fly rollers and as long as the NBRC Presidents see fit to retain me as Fly Director.
I am also the Southeast Regional Director for the World Cup. Does this mean that, now, you won't be flying in the World Cup either if we open up a discussion as to why certain regions or individuals may feel justified in flying ghost kits in the World Cup? I know...you feel I'm just interpreting the rules on my own again!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2008 1:59 PM
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kcfirl
486 posts
Sep 04, 2008
4:27 PM
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Cliff,
and here I thought we were talking about the Fall Fly.
I will continue to fly in the WC because as far as I can tell, the application of the rules is consistent in that fly ......... I suppose that would change if you were also the direcotr or national coordinator for that one based on your approach to the Fall Fly.
Regards,
Ken
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Ballrollers
1485 posts
Sep 04, 2008
6:40 PM
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Ken,
I think we have about put that topic to rest, don't you think? You don't find a change in topic uncomfortable, do you? You know as well as I do, I cannot change any NBRC fly rule. The NBRC EC must approve all changes and the NBRC flyers must ratify that change. In this instance, we are discussing the difference in the NBRC fly policy and the WC 50% flown rule. Both, the NBRC and WC flew by this fly policy at one time. The NBRC changed the number of kits needed for a qualifier, to 10, from 15. But at one time they were the same. The NBRC fly policy is very flexible and very easy to follow. The problems come in when someone pushes the limits of fairness to gain an extra qualifier. From those stats I posted, you can see exactly what I am talking about. This is a competition-based fly. We do not buy qualifiers per-say; regions try to fly, or intend to fly, their kits in order to ensure the qualifiers earn their positions fairly. To most of the regions, that is how it works. If a few DNFs are recorded along the way and they tried to fly or intended to fly, that's fine. If all regions had complaints, couldn't get two qualifiers without recording 10 DNF's, did nothing but snivel about this and that, then maybe the EC would look and see what has happened. But that is not the case, the Average DNF for the last FF was a little over 3 kits per region or a little over 1.5 DNF per qualifier. OR unless there was a catastrophic weather condition that blew every kit to hell and back. Each region sets its own time to fly its regional, each region must pick a time most advantageous to its flyers to avoid the main threats to flying kits. There are few reasons to complain if you chose a bad time. That is simply bad luck. Luck can play a large part in any fly. If most of all the other regions can fly their kits and follow the NBRC fly policy, there is NO support from me, for those who can't. There is no support from the EC for those who can't. Sorry if that does not suit you.
Cliff
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