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What Requirements To Fly 11 and 20 Bird Fll Fly?
What Requirements To Fly 11 and 20 Bird Fll Fly?
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Ballrollers
1443 posts
Aug 31, 2008
2:44 PM
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Scott,
Geesh, you just don't get it do ya? There was no ghost kit in my region. Jerry Allen lost most of his A-kit in an overfly...I think he got 6 or 8 back. That is a DNF. For those of you who fly ghost kits, I know that every DNF looks like a ghost kit, but there is a BIG difference. That's the whole point. I see that this is just not getting through to you, though, is it? Earth to Scotty!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 8:19 AM
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sundance
775 posts
Aug 31, 2008
4:32 PM
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I bet many , if not most of us fly without really thinking we have a snowballs chance in h*ll of actually winning. Speaking for myself only, I fly because ,#1, I enjoy the competition and fellowship it provides. #2, I fly to support the club and the fly. Every fly I try to learn something. I also set a bar for myself to try to do better next year.
If so-n-so gets a few points, great. For me its not if I win or lose. its simply whether or not I play the game. and supporting the "game" (the fly) ensures I`ll be able to play next year and so on. So, I`ll continue to support the game in whatever way I can.
These types of arguments , in my point of view, can only tear the club, and the hobby down. I see no real point in pursuing this. Will the club be better if the rules sre changed? will the fly be as successful if the rules are changed? Will any of this help insure the club will be here for us in anouther 10 years? or 20 years? I dont think so.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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dave
385 posts
Aug 31, 2008
5:28 PM
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Butch, I agree with you. It's all about supporting the region. Most people fly in our region to support the few that has a good kit. They know they don't stand a chance but they still fly. They have 2 kits but why fly a second kit when you already flew one and know they won't have a chance to win? Why keep the judge or RD for another 2-3 days just for the sake of flying that 2nd kit? If this is only for teams that stand a chance then please put that in the rules so the others don't have to even enter and pay the fee.
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Scott
1129 posts
Aug 31, 2008
5:34 PM
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Dave and Butch, you guys nailed it, I flew my team off last year a week or two before the fly last year so I put a kit of youngsters up just to support the fly,that is how it works.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sundance
778 posts
Aug 31, 2008
5:56 PM
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BINGO ! LOL.
But some day I do hope to fly with a chance to win ... I`m gettin there.. s l o w w l y ...LOL
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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kcfirl
482 posts
Sep 01, 2008
7:06 AM
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Cliff,
your region entered a guy who didn't fly and yet he counted, Scott called you on it after you've gone on and on about being ethical, and now Scott's a dufus?
I expect more from our national fly director. Oh I get it, your region an do it because your the director.
I see the rules are still working the way they always have.
Ken Firl
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Scott
1130 posts
Sep 01, 2008
10:14 AM
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Cliff ,just curious, who is Nathon Ball,is this a new flyer ?
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2008 10:18 AM
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sippi
506 posts
Sep 01, 2008
5:00 PM
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Cliff I usually like to gang up on Scott. But here I have to go with him. How much would it cost me to "ghost" nine more kits?? Or even eight more?? There hasnt been an entry in my region in quite a while. There may never be, who knows. So I will either have to fly with your region or Alabama. I also dont see where it hurts regardless because the cream will rise to the top. As with this year yeah I could ghost nine and qualify but my birds arent squat now and I would be "found out" in the finals. Might be a little tougher in the WC trying to come up with half those ghost kits.
Forever amused
Sippi
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PAUL R.
6 posts
Sep 01, 2008
10:50 PM
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My thoughts on this, It just opens up for the RD to charge more money per kit. In hopes to ( manipulate ) the number of qualifiers. In our region we went from flying 2-kits @ $50.00 in the fall fly. This fly only requires 10 flyers or kits to have 1-qualifier. But for the World Cup Fly it went up to $60.00 for 2-kits. So with all respect, I believe there using the additional money collected to pay for these ghost kits. And, to top it off, The RD has been using there own club members to judge these flys.
NBRC should only allow ghost kits when a NEW REGION is being formed, not an established region. And if he can not get flyers to participate, then he should really check himself as to why people dont want to participate. Im sure theres many of good reasons.
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kopetsa
1450 posts
Sep 01, 2008
11:02 PM
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How many ppl usually try to fly in the WC every year usually?
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Andrew
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gotspin7
1801 posts
Sep 02, 2008
4:42 AM
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Paul, that is cheap still..lol
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 4:42 AM
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Ballrollers
1445 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:43 AM
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Dave,I think Region 9A flew 38 kits. Do you think all those kits had a chance? Most men who fly two kits, do so without stopping the judge from keeping to the regions fly schedule. It takes a plan to fly 38 kits and have only 2 DNF's. If you have a crap kit and want to support your region, fly the crap kit But if you want an extra qualifier, meaning more than one, it would be a good idea to fly the second kit. If your region is only getting one qualifier and your region is scraping to get 5 flyers and you only get the judge for 2 days for the whole region.... I would still fly that second kit. You will learn something every time you try to set up a kit. If you learn nothing, you may benefit from get a better mentor or better pigeons. I guess, some can look at it from the put up or shut up mentality. I will tell you this, even the big winners, flew their share of kits that did not have a chance at some point in their lives. You have to learn to loose before you can win. Loosing teaches us several things, one of which is humility. If 9A can get 4 qualifiers with 2 DNF's and if you have no inclement weather, no hawk problems, have the number of birds to fly a kit, if you have no reason NOT to fly..... Try to fly. There is no written NBRC fly policy that remotely suggests that it is acceptable to fly one kit if you enter two. The same goes for if you enter even just one kit. The WC fly does accept 50% flown. If you only enter one and can't fly, then you (RD) ( somebody) must explain to the judge why you can't fly. If you have a good excuse, the judge may allow your kit to count towards the qualifier numbers. The NBRC chose to avoid that whole hassle and use the honor system, and only ask that each flyer intend to fly the kit or kits he enters. looking at last years stats, the system works for most regions. A few could try harder, maybe they will this year. If the DNF's remain low and most regions try to follow the NBRC fly policy, I think things will rock along as they are now. If you want fly in the NBRC ..FLY! If you want to support your region and can't fly, have a poor kit, what ever reason you have not to fly.... Donate money to your RD, House the judge, take the Judge to dinner, etc., do what ever you can to otherwise support your region. It is a whole lot easier to drop a check in the mail (donation to the fly) to the RD, than have a judge come look at poor pigeons. Lots of ways to support your region if you choose NOT TO FLY. If you intend to fly ....FLY. If you can't.... and you honestly tried, fine by the NBRC. You do not have to make any excuse to anybody if you try. Winners try, guess what losers do? They don't ever try. What if the big dogs DQ, get hit by hawks or high winds? You fly the next day, no winds no hawks..... you could WIN! But you never will if you don't try to fly. Amen and pass the plate.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1446 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:45 AM
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Scott,
Interesting concept you mention. I really did not even think of your well earned placement in the WC 2008. Do you think the MF program should give points that were earned from kits NOT FLOWN? Please explain that to me. If the master flyer program was established to recognize flyers competition wins, where points are awarded, based on the number of kits he competed against. If the kits did not fly, the winner cannot win over them. One can only win, over kits that score or receive a DQ. DNF's to me, mean is same as saying "DID NOT FLY-DID NOT COMPETE." ie....NOT FLYERS. Flyers fly but not all entrants compete. How do you feel the master flyer program, should award points.... kits entered but NOT FLOWN? Kits you did not compete against? hmmmm. I think the exact wording for regional fly MF/FF points, is calculated from.... "FLYERS" only. So as long as each flyer can document that his Regional FF and WC points were calculated from KITS FLOWN or FLYERS, everything will be fine. If someone has been figuring his points based on KITS ENTERED, he may need to make sure that the KITS entered is exactly the same as kits flown. There is no doubt that the MF program regional points (WC/FF) are calculated ONLY FROM KITS FLOWN/FLYERS. Is that the way you read it too?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1447 posts
Sep 02, 2008
7:47 AM
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Butch,
Something you said got me to thinking, so indulge me for just a moment. I know time is precious and the best fly times are fleeting, I know cars break down and life can get in the way of pleasure. But to me, these pigeons are just a small part of the bigger picture. I need to slow down and enjoy this ride we are on. I want to meet each flyer, be introduced to his wife, meet the kids, see his loft, learn his hobbies, pet the dog. Many great flyers I will never meet, never shake their hand, never look them in the eye, cause they are gone. The young flyer I meet today, the kit I had to DQ today, could win the NBRC fly , next year or next decade. I may never pass this way again but I can say I knew him when. Maybe if we feel pressured to squeeze in a day or two more than we feel comfortable with, more than we feel we should be away from our families, just to many days on the road..... Maybe we should look for judging opportunities that work within our time frames. We (I) need to enjoy these men who fly these birds as well as fulfill our judging duties. To rush through a judging tour, to say Hi and Bye here's your score..... is a chance wasted to know a flyer.... we may never meet again.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1448 posts
Sep 02, 2008
7:52 AM
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Scott,
The 11 bird fly is gaining in popularity each year.
The flyers in many regions now fly an 11 and a 20 bird kit so the region gets a qualifier in each venue. (No ghost kits!!) In regions where both 11 and 20 is offered, the 20 bird as but a slight advantage in kits entered, when averaged. With the ever increasing problems with BOP, I think that in the near future the 11 bird fly will close that gap. To the 11 bird flyers, "their fly" is just as important as the 20 is to you. The MF program recognizes winners/consistantly near the top, it does not concern itself with which national, inter national or regional NBRC or WC fly you win. There is no loophole there to close on this point. Thankfully your disdain for the 11 bird fly is not shared on a national level.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1449 posts
Sep 02, 2008
7:56 AM
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Butch,
The average DNF is 3 kits per region. Some regions average a little more...some a little less. That's fine. I am not saying DNF's are bad or not honorable, they happen, even in my region. But most regions don't plan for them in order to get more qualifiers. This whole discussion is trying to show the difference in the WC 50% kits flown rule and the NBRC fly policy. As you can see from last years figures, all regions but one flew more that 50% of their kits. I look at these figures and I know the NBRC fly policy is being understood and followed by a vast majority of the NBRC regions. That is the way it should be and usually has been in past NBRC flys. The "PROBLEM" is the few men who have twisted the NBRC and WC fly policy together to create something that is not what the NBRC intended nor supports. That being the WC version. As is clearly visible when you look at last years stats, that almost every single NBRC region is following the NBRC fly policy correctly, everybody is on the same page, everybody understands what is expected of them and everybody is doing a fine job. The system works! It works with the fly policy now in place. The NBRC fly policy is enforced by the nothing more than the "HONOR SYSTEM." The NBRC fly policy is in your hands....NOT MINE. If someone tries to tell you, the NBRC fly policy is non-existent, you don't have to fly your kits, you can fly one if you enter two. Kindly, understand that not all men are men of honor and that a tiny few are just not with it. We are all in this club together. We all fly by the same set of standards, and we all have to be aware that each one of us has to maintain the integrity of our fly rules, our fly policy and do the best we can to follow those written guidelines. That's all we have to do. I look at regions like 9A who got 4 qualifiers and only 2 DNF's and I ask , How did they do that? That shows us it can be done, the fly policy is working. MEN WANT TO FLY THEIR KITS! If there are time restraints and the region must finish the fly, of course men can volunteer to take a DNF. The point is a few, a very few regions are trying to manipulate the numbers to "GET AN EXTRA QUALIFIER." If the regions are doing things to make the regional fly go more smoothly and getting an extra qualifier is NOT... the objective, Fine! Do what you have to, use common sense and enjoy this experience. If you have been following this thread, then you know exactly what I am referring to. I will bet you 99% of the guys reading this are doing it right. They know what the rules are and they know what is and is not expected of them. THEY KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG. They know the differences between the NBRC rules and the WC rules. That 1%.... is a regional problem, and that region must address that problem. You all know the rules, the fly policy, do what you know is right and not what someone else tells you is right. I am looking forward to a great NBRC finals fly. Let's all do our best to follow the rules and hope for the best weather we can have.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1450 posts
Sep 02, 2008
8:29 AM
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Scott,
Nathan Ball is my 24 year-old son who has been living with me. (He did not fly in the NBRC, which is the fly that we are disucssing.) I gave him a couple kits early this year....last year's B-kit and some young birds...to let him get his feet wet......hoping he'll get the bug. He has always taken a lot of interest in rollers and in competition...helps me feed and fly them. He was home during the winter and spring recovering from ACL replacement surgery. It doesn't look like he will be going back to Europe to play ball again, though. So now he's getting those resumes out....Time to go to work!
Cliff
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Square
445 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:28 AM
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Man I have been following this tread in hopes to get some guidance,, And I am still alittle confused,,, but not descourged... It is amazing howmany diffrent view points people have ,, some are the same just worded diffrent. I knew this building of a region thing would be challenging.. I can truly say our region what ever it may be will do everything to up hold the integrety of this sport.. however I we/ would like some more guidance from you "super savy folk's". I know comming into this we need to learn the handshakes,, just need to know howmany.. I really thank those who have helped me in the prep of this new region thing,, you know who you are.. I know it's more than having acouple of kits of rollers redy to fly,, just really didnt relize all the political B.S... I have found myself jumping trough more hoops than a circus seal, but am willing to do so... so when I read the smaller regions need a break thats us..!! please feel free to e-mail me or contact me with some positive reinforcement.. Truly,, Booker
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Ballrollers
1451 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:35 AM
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Hey Booker,
Don't let this political crap affect your committment to enter the competitions. FLY! You will learn more about rollers and advance your breeding program and the quality of the performance of your birds significantly by doing so. Most flyers never hear about what goes on on these internet sites. Participate on line if it trips your trigger. Otherwise, enjoy the comraderie of your regional competitons.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1452 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:39 AM
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Firl,
If you cannot see the difference between one or two DNFs caused by a man loosing his kit in an overfly, and large numbers of DNFs in regions who pay for kits that are never intended to be flown or do not exist, then you are part of the problem...not part of the solution. Or maybe you just like to shoot the messenger because you have an alterior motive to do. What region did you tell us that you fly in??
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1454 posts
Sep 02, 2008
12:33 PM
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Sippi,
The sad truth is in 2007 FF, we had 4 regions fail to come up with a qualifier. FOUR! In a whole region, they could not find 5 men to fly 2 kits each, much less 10 NBRC members to fly one kit. Hey, why not one man to fly one and pay for 9! LOL! If you want to form a region .... go for it. If we can form regions that have no interest in flying......what does it matter how many kits are flown, entered or paid for, or even whether or not they really exist?......the thrill of learning all the minutia details behind the initials of NBRC. :0( I know it sounds like I have become cynical....but we need to tie up all these loose ends....in a BIG way.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 12:33 PM
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Scott
1132 posts
Sep 02, 2008
1:04 PM
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Cliff, you have to be one of the most hypocritical and dis honest people I have ever met.
Your own region even uses ghost FLYERS and ghost kits, and you are well aware of it,not that it matters because it is well within the rules,you also used your own sons name to hit the magic 30 for the number 2 qualifier,you deny it and I will call you a bold face liar.
Why don't you just come out with what your agenda really is here
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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dave
388 posts
Sep 02, 2008
1:33 PM
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Cliff,
You don't see the point that it is time wasted to fly a 2nd kit if that kit has no chance at all. If a person wants to fly his 2nd cause they feel they have a shot then it's fine. You got to remember that it is hard enough already to get a judge in for a weekend. Our club only charges $50 for 2 kits (1-20 and 1-11 team). That barely gives us enough money to cover the expenses of driving the judges (prelim and finals), food, and maybe even lodging. You raise the price and you will get less participation. I bet that most of the guys don't fly cause it cost so much in their region to fly, not for the fee but the extra money for EXPENSES. I've heard some regions cost $100 for 2 kits. How much do you guys charge for your region?
The region you mention flies exclusively 20 birds only. Have you asked that region how many days it takes to judge their region? Granted there were only a few that flew their 2nd team and yes I think they thought their 2nd team was good enough to qualify cause I some of them. Imagine if they flew the 20 bird team and they also flew the 11 bird team comp, I just wonder how many days or weeks it would take and who would be willing to be their judge.
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Ballrollers
1456 posts
Sep 02, 2008
1:45 PM
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Scott,
Your statement seems to run counter to the Posting policy but nevertheless, I will try to address your post, once again. The crux of this matter lies in the fact there are two distinct and different Fly policy's. You keep melding the two into one. The WC's requires only that 50% of the kits be flown and my region has always met that requirement. We fly at least 50% of the kits paid. That is the rule and that is what we did. The NBRC however, has no 50% kits flown rule, never has. But some act otherwise. There is no written NBRC Fly Policy support for flying fewer kits than entered. There is common sense that tells us that some bending is allowed and even expected. So instead of grown men having to explain why they could not fly a kit for various honest reasons, the NBRC chose not to implement the WC fly policy in any shape or form. The NBRC fly policy asks only, that each man who enters a kit or kits, intend to fly and have those judged. Our region met that requirement also, as I have explained in a previous post. If you cannot understand the difference as I have explained it to you in very simple terms, then I am sorry about that. My "agenda", as Fly Director and as a participant, is for all NBRC regions to understand the NBRC Fly Policy and understand the differences between it and the WC 50% kits flown rule. Simple enough. It is quite obvious that not all regions are operating under the same understanding. But since the majority of the NBRC regions and flyers do understand and are following the NBRC fly policy and are upholding the honor system, the NBRC Fly Policy is working in most cases. So I am only addressing those who do not. Is it sinking in yet?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1457 posts
Sep 02, 2008
1:56 PM
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dave,
I understand that completely. That situation you are describing is not a ghost kit. The flyer entered a kit and the decision is made for the sake of time, not to fly the kit. In some cases the judge will verify that the kit exists, in some cases he will not, depending on the judge and the situation in the region at the time (weather, number of flyers, time, etc.)
I did not write the NBRC fly policy. I did not change the WC fly rules to read 50% flown. I had nothing to do with any of that. All I do is help coordinate the finals schedule, buy plane tickets, etc. If you have problems or questions concerning these issues and how they are handled, please consult with your local NBRC or WC RD. I have given you my best understanding of each way to calculate a region's qualifiers based on their individual rules/policy. If you don't like it.... I can't help it. If all the other regions can do it; so can the rest. I would expect, because transportation costs continue to rise, fly fees may also go up at some point. As feed costs rise, as BOP's continue to drive men from the hobby, fewer and fewer men may compete, causing a greater financial burden for those of us who do. That's just a fact of life. We need to start looking for new blood, new flyers to help us transition into overcoming these obstacles, instead of small regions, we may need to combine some regions. These problems are what they are, nothing more, nothing less. When a majority of the regions can't meet the present fly policy, then the NBRC may enter into a discussion to see if change is necessary. A judge's time spent with a flyer is never wasted. The judges I know, are fully aware of how few, good to great kits, he will probably witness. Not all poor scores are due to poor birds. Poor weather conditions, too many hawks, and flyer error often are the cause for low scores. Don't look for reasons not to fly, look for reasons to fly, then be disappointed if you can't. Then you will enter the ranks of rollermen.
As you can see the National average for all DNF's was a little over 3. 3 X 12= 36, 36 X 25$= $900 rounded off to $1000. With the high transportation costs today, that $1000 may come in handy for the NBRC, but it could easily cover that several ways. Some of those are legitimate DNFs, but some regions abused the NBRC fly policy and publicly thumb their nose at the majority understanding. The problem will come about when other regions see them do it and get away wirth it. The only option left would be to enact our own minumum kits flown and agree to a number 90-80-70-50% to keep everybody on the same page. All you have to do is look at the WC stats and see what is happening. If you like what you see there, and like the idea of regions with flyers with cash getting the most qualifiers, then I rest my case.... Fine....Adopt a 50% kits flown and leave it to the judge to weed through the excuses. The only place that currently registers Ghost kits, are the regions who try to apply the WC 50% kits flown rule in the NBRC fly.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 2:29 PM
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Scott
1133 posts
Sep 02, 2008
2:29 PM
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Scott,
Interesting concept you mention. I really did not even think of your well earned placement in the WC 2008. Do you think the MF program should give points that were earned from kits NOT FLOWN? Please explain that to me. If the master flyer program was established to recognize flyers competition wins, where points are awarded, based on the number of kits he competed against. If the kits did not fly, the winner cannot win over them. One can only win, over kits that score or receive a DQ. DNF's to me, mean is same as saying "DID NOT FLY-DID NOT COMPETE." ie....NOT FLYERS. Flyers fly but not all entrants compete. How do you feel the master flyer program, should award points.... kits entered but NOT FLOWN? Kits you did not compete against? hmmmm. I think the exact wording for regional fly MF/FF points, is calculated from.... "FLYERS" only. So as long as each flyer can document that his Regional FF and WC points were calculated from KITS FLOWN or FLYERS, everything will be fine. If someone has been figuring his points based on KITS ENTERED, he may need to make sure that the KITS entered is exactly the same as kits flown. There is no doubt that the MF program regional points (WC/FF) are calculated ONLY FROM KITS FLOWN/FLYERS. Is that the way you read it too?
Cliff
(Cliff I can assure you that every master flyer used the same criteria,including (you guessed it) the points that you have)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 3:21 PM
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Scott
1134 posts
Sep 02, 2008
2:36 PM
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Scott,
(The 11 bird fly is gaining in popularity each year.
The flyers in many regions now fly an 11 and a 20 bird kit so the region gets a qualifier in each venue. (No ghost kits!!) In regions where both 11 and 20 is offered, the 20 bird as but a slight advantage in kits entered, when averaged. With the ever increasing problems with BOP, I think that in the near future the 11 bird fly will close that gap. To the 11 bird flyers, "their fly" is just as important as the 20 is to you. The MF program recognizes winners/consistantly near the top, it does not concern itself with which national, inter national or regional NBRC or WC fly you win. There is no loophole there to close on this point. Thankfully your disdain for the 11 bird fly is not shared on a national level.
Cliff )
Just more hypicritical bullshit, the 11 bird finals has 15 flyers verses the 20 bird finals having 30 flyers,and the same points given for the top 10 for both, and you call this no loophole and fair? funny when it benifits you it's okie dokey.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 2:37 PM
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Scott
1135 posts
Sep 02, 2008
2:51 PM
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But since the majority of the NBRC regions and flyers do understand and are following the NBRC fly policy and are upholding the honor system, the NBRC Fly Policy is working in most cases. So I am only addressing those who do not. Is it sinking in yet?
Cliff
Cliff, this is what , your 3rd or 4th NBRC fly ? and now you want to change policy ?
Instead of slamming near every region with your opinion, why don't you step up to the E.C. and snivle to them ? then get back to us.
But of course that won't happen
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 3:20 PM
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Scott
1136 posts
Sep 02, 2008
3:32 PM
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My "agenda", as Fly Director and as a participant, is for all NBRC regions to understand the NBRC Fly Policy and understand the differences between it and the WC 50% kits flown rule. Simple enough.
The W/C is 50 0/0 fly and the NBRC is kits paid ,both are different policys, and that is what your own RD uses also.
As the fly director you are passing BUNK information and making things up as you go, if you weren't we wouldn't be here discussing this and regions (including your own) wouldn't be useing ghost flyers and ghost kits.
By the way, even we don't use ghost flyers,but if you ever see my wifes name on a regional report such as your sons name was you can bet your ass that we needed just one more flyer to make the number, big difference is I wouldn't flat out lie about it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 4:17 PM
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Square
448 posts
Sep 02, 2008
4:24 PM
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Man This is kinda intence! LOL you folks are stern and I really think its awsom... reguardless of posting policies.. it is a valuable tool for me to read each view point,,, as it is right on time for my objective in this sport. Thanx Ballroller for the input, and I agree we should combind regions,, however that isn't a option for me,,it would be alot less work jumping on a established train. I would love nothing more than to fly with region 9F like I have been for the past couple of years they have some good birds and flyers. But I relize the distance and gas thing,, plus If you want to compete you need to sattle up in thease parts,,, and I am all for that.. truthfully all this would make me a Backyard flyer for life,, never to deal with all thease hoops just to prove I have good roller's and can stand a chance aginst the topflyers. I am willing to do whatever as now it is a challenge on top of a challenge and I dont give up easily...LOL.. Im gonna make this thing work and be reconized in this sport..as well as the rest of the flyers in tow with me.. thanx for all and keepit up,,, my eye's are open!!!
Square
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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sundance
785 posts
Sep 02, 2008
5:18 PM
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Cliff,
I`m with ya on the taking time to visit and get to know the other fliers, see their lofts, check out their birds. Thats the fellowship that I think almost every club or club website has posted in its mission statement. But during a judging trip like we had here 2 years ago, before we split the region, that was a 3000 mile trip. probably closer to 3500 miles by the time the judge got to the starting point and then back home. I tell ya, I`m dang glad we didnt have anyone flying kits just for the sake of flying a kit, knowing dam well they were wasting the judges time and gas money..
I absolutely hate getting caught up in these threads. I personally think they are bad for the club and the hobby in general. My instinct is to sit back and ignore them thinking "I aint got a dog in this fight". But WRONG! I do. Seeing this club survive is my dog. You see Cliff, If this all was for making the club better, I`d be tickled pink. You said yourself, " 99% of the guys reading this are doing everything right" So all this is after just 1% ??? Man, thats some pretty high expectations for a population of any kind to get 100% compliance.
Some regions do have a tough time getting enough fliers. But WE NEED those fliers to be able to participate. The rules need to be "flexible enough" to allow those not fortunate enough to have fellow roller fliers living down the street, to be able to fly. To me the more who participate the better for the club. Better for the club = longevity for the club. Bad for the club = you, Scott, Paul, Sal, Rudy, Dave, Sippi, Tom, Dick and Harry with no club. Now I dont know about you but I actually enjoy this hobby. I really dont care if the "flexible area" of the rules allows someone and extra qualifier, or a master flier point. I`ll do whatever I can to help the club be better. I donate extra money every year to the flies. I judge our small area for the state club and hope to be good enough some day to judge more if possible. If I can find some other way to benefit the clubs, I will. It just ticks me off to see all this time wasted on something as trivial as this, which as you stated yourself, "affects only 1 % of us". You`re obviously a talented writer, an accomplished flier and breeder, and, you are willing to step up to a position in the club which is probably , in general, one of those thankless positions. Cant we all just get along?
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Ballrollers
1458 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:28 PM
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Scott,
Well, I guess I cannot get through to you. I'm not looking to change any policy here, just make sure these guys understand the existing policies. We will just have to go with majority rules. And we will just have to continue to not understand each other's position. I know that my region is in the majority when it comes to properly adhering to the NBRC fly policy. I know my region also adheres to the WC kits flown rule. It's an integrity thing and I don't expect you to understand it. But I sure do like these little heart to heart chats we seem to come up with, in spit of your name-calling and twisting what I say. Sorry about calling you Dufus. You are not a dufus, you are somewhat better than that.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1459 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:33 PM
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Scott,
About the Master Flyer points. I didn't write them and neither did you. If you have a problem with them, do something about it. If you guys want better odds at winning MF points, I would like to invite all regions to consider flying in the NBRC 11-bird fly. And conversely, I would hope that each region would support the 20-bird fly as well. The NBRC feels that each has its place. Ideally,we would have an 11-bird qualifier and a 20-bird qualifier in every region. That's a tall order folks. Double your fun. :0)
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1460 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:37 PM
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Scott,
I am not slaming all the other regions. Almost all of them are doing what the NBRC fly policy asks. I have heard of no other region doing what you claim to be the NBRC fly policy. I see no other region that indicates that they use the WC fly rules concerning if kits need to be flown in a NBRC FLY. I see no other NBRC region that admits to not following the NBRC fly policy. I see no other region that flys half their kits in an NBRC fly. The fact is that the 2007 FF statistics speak for themselves. The NBRC fly policy is being adhered to by a large majority of the regions. If they can do it, anyone can do it. We had small regions with one qualifier do it. We had large regions, with high flyer density do it, and we had huge regions with few flyers do it. I don't see where there is a huge problem. I see a regional problem that needs a regional fix. If you wish to take it to the NBRC, I think you should. Especially if you think the NBRC and WC use the same standard when it comes to how many kits need to be flown to meet the fly policy. If you ever get over that hump, then you will be all right. I got faith in you Scotty.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1461 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:43 PM
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Scott,
You are making progress...you got it half right. The NBRC written Fly Policy is: "Each flyer may enter two kits. 2 in the 20 or two in the 11 or one kit in each. For every 10 kits entered the region earns one qualifier." NO WHERE do you see "KITS PAID" is used to calculate the numbers need per qualifier. The idea that kits do not need to be flown is only used in the WC. It seems to be "understood" by almost all NBRC regions that it be an "entrant," you want to fly and compete. You have enough pigeons to make the numbers in your chosen fly. If you have no intentions in competing, have no pigeons.... Why would you say you do? Yes, I know, these damn ethical decisions can be baffling to a few of our nicest members. Again, it is understood that the fly is for flyers, Master flyer points are calculated from FLYERS.... NOT KITS PAID but kits that fly, and score or got a DQ. The NBRC "encourages" men to enter to FLY, intend to FLY, make an honest effort to FLY. If we want to allow regions to buy enough kits to get an extra qualifier... Fine by me but first we need to have support from the Fly Policy so all regions have the same benefit. What we see here is kinda one sided, only one region out of 14 needed 10 DNF's to get a SECOND qualifier. With a majority of all the other regions needing 0-1-2-3-4-5 DNF's to get the numbers needed to fulfill their qualifiers....... Why should one region need over three times the average DNF's to get a second qualifier? Did they suffer bad weather? Did they misunderstand the fly policy? or did they abuse the honor system that encourages entrants to make an effort to fly all kits entered? I don't know and I don't care. It is not my problem. I'm just pointing it out. It is one region's problem and one region can fix it. Do the rules or fly policy need to be addressed/changed if a few regions make a few mistakes? I don't think so. We have numerous laws against bank robbers but still we have bank robbers. Would more laws prevent banks from being robbed? NO.......Same here......Some people will never get it. Does that help? I will stay around as long as you need me. 'Til you understand, I am here for you, buddy.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1462 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:51 PM
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Square,
Me and Scott have these little discussions from time to time....on a wide variety of topics. Funny....we rarely see eye-to-eye on things, but, believe it or not, it has happened! LOL!. We never change each other's mind but they get quite interesting, to say the least. I am glad you got a few different points of view which you can carefully weigh, and hopefully use, in the future. That's the whole point. If I can answer any questions for you I will be happy to do so. Scott will help you out too. He is a great flyer and a tuff man to deal with if you have an idea that he doesn't agree with. I respect his determination and his fly record, but we disagree on a lot of things. And, yes, it can get very intense for those looking in. But, both Scott and I are having a great time trying to push each others buttons. And hopefully somebody learns something in the process!
Good luck.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 6:52 PM
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Scott
1137 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:52 PM
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I know that my region is in the majority when it comes to properly adhering to the NBRC fly policy. I know my region also adheres to the WC kits flown rule. It's an integrity thing and I don't expect you to understand it.
Your region is no different than every other region in that it does everything in it's power to secure as many qualifiers as it can.
And by the way, yes I would use Tammy and have her cut loose a scub kit as you did if I needed that one last name to make the quota,i just wouldn't lie about it and try and make my region out to be different from any others.
Cliff, I have been RD of either the W/C or the NBRC far too long not to know how to utilize every advantage that the rules allow,and no you can't bullshit me.
By the way, your fuzzy math is off base also, 62 DNF equels $ 1,240.00 not 900 something, a few years ago they raised the fees due to the fly not supporting itself.
I think that you trying to dump revenue down the toilet may not be the best idea.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1463 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:54 PM
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Butch,
You're takin' this way to serious, man! LOL! But you are right..it is a serious matter. Basically, I appreciate everything you are saying. But I hope you aren't suggesting that we need flyers so bad that we just look the other way. Hey, what happened to the FDB fly this year? I was looking forward to getting up to see you guys, again, this year. Did I miss it?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 6:59 PM
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Scott
1138 posts
Sep 02, 2008
6:58 PM
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. (For every 10 kits ENTERED)
Cliff, you posted it yourself, it says kits ENTERED , doesn't say flown, like I have said over and over again, go to the E.C. TO GET THIS CLARIFIED,why on earth are you dealing with this here ??????
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 7:54 PM
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sundance
786 posts
Sep 02, 2008
7:07 PM
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Cliff, I know. I told ya I hate this crap. This is suppose to be fun and every time we turn around it turns into some kind of political BS, and I aint smart enough to stay the hell out of it.LOL I might as well stay at work. At least there I get paid listen to it. Man, I really dont need it. LOL
And you`re right. I didnt hear anything of that fly this year. I also would like getting over there again. I met a lot of good people last year, including you! LOL I think J_star was there, Charlie Stack and Wendell Carter. Yep. We do need to do that again.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Scott
1140 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:00 PM
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(With a majority of all the other regions needing 0-1-2-3-4-5 DNF's to get the numbers needed to fulfill their qualifiers....... Why should one region need over three times the average DNF's to get a second qualifier? Did they suffer bad weather?)
Actualy other regions had more than 5 as you know, plus some call their DNFs DQs, so how many are allowed Cliff ? tell me ? can we use ghost flyers like your region did ? if so,how many ?
Now lets here your regions excuse again why you didn't even have ten flyers in either the 11 or the 20 bird and yet just by luck you had exactly 10 names in each fly, and why did some not even fly one kit ? in other words GHOST FLYERS , what is your agenda here ?
Oh by the way, yes we had bad weather Cliff and the reasons for the DNFs ,hows that ? Naw I can't lie , we don't fly them and waste everyones time for no reason.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 9:13 PM
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fhtfire
1482 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:22 PM
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Cliff,
That year we did have bad weather....we also overflys....I know on my fly it was windy. I was going to fly two good kits..but I lost my main kit in an overfly. Now...Chuck Roe and Bill Crider were eaten up by BOP...we had some others have overflys...Steve Bills another...got nailed by BOP..he did not have enough to fly. So there were reasons...for some DNF's...... DO you have to fly your second kit..no that is your choice...if you know your second kit is crappy or young..and no way to qualify...then you DNF...not to waste the judges time....and save on fuel. The NBRC collects there money and that is what the fly is all about...as long as you have a reason....then case closed.....and the price of fuel....why go back and waste money for nothing.
If you want to make it easy..just say for every 5fliers...not kits but fliers you get one qualifier...it cleans it up...But if you do it that way the NBRC loses money on the extra kit...and I know the money is not a ghost..it is real as can be....so if you cant fly..well you cant fly....for whatever reason that is out of the fliers control...then they count....or hell...have everyone fly a second kit...all they have to do is end it quick with the feed can and get a DQ...then used wasted fuel and money....who wants to watch a kit of young birds go in circles...that is what most had....
Hell....my boy wants to fly..I can let him fly the young birds team that is his team..I am teaching him....and I could count him as a flier and that is perfectly within the rules..it is no different then a brand new flier coming in....I think I have see that before...oh yeah...in your region...but that is ok I am not complaining just giving you an example because you broke NO RULES>>>
rock and ROLL
Paul
Not smart for a National director to start nailing regions...you want to piss regions off and start having there own flies and cause turmoil within the club...keep flapping them jaws...
Instead of making accuasition (spelling) about cheating in regions...you should bring it up in an EC forum and see where it goes by voting not slandering...
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PAUL R.
7 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:38 PM
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Talking about Master Points awarded to qualifiers. Theres only room for the first 3-qualifiers. So if you end up being the 4th or 5th qualifier, you aint getting any points towards your master points. Only if you end up being in the top 10 world wide in the finals.
So again, how is these ghost kits helping the flyers?
If indeed its a building a number game to have more qualifiers. I know Cliff, you didnt write the rules about the master points. But, it defeats inpart of flying to be recognize as a flyer world wide.
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Scott
1141 posts
Sep 02, 2008
9:46 PM
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Paul, it would take forever getting your master flyer points off of regional stuff only, you also need the top ten in the finals flys.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2008 9:48 PM
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Ballrollers
1464 posts
Sep 03, 2008
3:52 AM
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Butch,
Wendall, Charlie and I had a great time flying pigeons with you guys in Ohio. The three of us are off flying pigeons again, joining up with JOe Bob and Don Simpson on Wednesday before the NBRC convention at Rick Mees's to fly birds and have a barbecue, then on Thursday, visiting Carlos and Ken Easley, Rex Haas, Darryl Johnson amd some other Texas flyers who aren't flying in the convention tour. Hope to see ya there!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1465 posts
Sep 03, 2008
5:48 AM
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Paul,
Let's see now, should I do things the Scott Campbell way and call you aliar and a hypocrite? No...I won't stoop so low. You are a good man and a competent flyer, Paul, and are generally respectful to those with whom you disagree. So we will take you at your word. You say that your DNFs were valid and I believe you. But Scott said: "For the NBRC it's strictly kits paid, You don't even have to fly one kit, legit reason or not." I contend, that to follow Scott's logic is incorrect and not the intention of the rule. The NBRC encourages all flyers to fly all kits if possible. Without kits to fly ...we have no fly. If your region followed the fly policy and you had hawks, bad weather, etc.........You tried to fly. Then you met the NBRC fly policy. That is all that is asked. That is not what Scott indicated. I believe I also stated there could be extenuating circumstances that caused a region to have more than the national average of DNF's. Scott did not say anything about weather or hawks, that I read. Since we cannot count on ethics and fair play to deal with this issue, the whole point is that the NBRC needs to level the playing field by modifying the Fly Policy in order to clearly define whether it sanctions "you don't have to fly one kit, legit reason or not"....which is entering ghost kits....in order to gain additional qualifiers for a region. I have talked to RDs in some regions who refuse to accept ghost kits in their region, solely on the basis that they don't think it's right. I hope that we can count on your support for the clarification of the policy when, and if, we can get it in front of the EC.
About your idea to improve the understanding to change the calculations on qualifiers. To keep revenues up, but also let every region enjoy the same advantage, an option would be: Each region gets one qualifier for every 10 kits flown and has the option to buy one qualifier over and above the kits flown. You are rewarded for flying your kits, if bad weather, hawks hit, you may still get a qualifier. Large regions could get an extra qualifier if they wanted to but it is an "OPTION." Small regions would definitely benefit; just buy one. As flying conditions deteriorate, this may be a way to keep hard hit regions, in the competitions. There could be problems associated with this idea, that I have not yet considered, of course. The idea is to plug the loopholes, and it needs to be kicked around. All I am trying to do is bring all the options found within the fly policy to light. Scott has helped me do that.... be that with a side dish of rancor. Paul, had you cleared this up early in this thread, buddy, I doubt I would have pushed this issue so hard.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1466 posts
Sep 03, 2008
5:54 AM
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Paul,
Yes, only the top three finishers in the FF/WC regional are awarded MF points. Now, look at how those points go up as the number of flyers goes up. 1-15 then 16-20, then 21-25 etc. Let's use the WC as an example. A region has 30 paid kits they fly 50% =15 Flyers so they "SHOULD " use the 1-15 not the 26-30 to calculate their MF points. It is easily misunderstood. The system is based on the premise that the more kits you fly against, the harder to win, so you should be rewarded more points as you win over more kits. But should that be over kits paid for and not flown? I think not! Where's the sport in that? The intention of the awarding of MF points is that they are calculated from FLYERS (meaning kits that either scored 0-up, or DQ'ed) DNF's should not influence the calculations. Now do you see it?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1467 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:02 AM
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Scott,
In my region, all entrants intended to fly their kits at the time they sent in their money. Our region does everything in its power to secure as many qualifiers as possible.... Within the understanding from the fly policy, that it is "understood" that each flyer intend to fly a kit or kits for the judge. (I apologize for my fuzzy math I used the Average number rounded off to 3 but the point was valid even if my math was a little off. Thanks for catching that.) Let me ask you this: Which is more important: Generating funds for the fly....or generating funds for a fly where all regions secure their qualifiers under the same understanding? See, I would go with all regions operating under the same understanding of securing their qualifiers even if it cost a little more. Taking advantage of fly policy that can be looked at two different ways, is where integrity needs to come into the decision-making process. Once a region makes what ever decision it makes, that understanding (RIGHT or WRONG) is passed down from RD to RD. But that is the risk we run by not having explicit rules, fly policy, fly rules, job description that cover every situation you can imagine. We rely heavily on men's desire to know right from wrong. 99 times out of one hundred there are no problems. When we have problems, they seem to revolve around differences of opinions and not lapses in honesty. But, short answer..shit happens and not all flyers were able to meet their goal to fly their kits. In my region, they had kits, they intended to fly their kits. NO GHOST KITS, not one. No matter how many times you say it, it will not be so.
Yes, a few regions had more than the national average of 3.4 but no region flew only 50% of their kits but one, the rest flew more than 50% and two flew 100%. If judges are mis-using DQ's for DNF's, then the whole accounting procedure is invalid and useless in seeing what is actually going on average-wise. Why would they make that decision? They are two entirely different descriptions, not similar at all. In my discussions with RDs, I have not seen that this is the case. It may happen, but I would say that it is rare, and therefore a non-issue.
But, here we have a perfect example of miscommunication. Had you revealed the information as Paul F did, we may have avoided this lengthy discussion. But I know you love to discuss these issues and give me shit. LOL! And hey... so do I. I have no reason to believe you lie. I think you just leave out salient points when it is convenient to do so,for some reason. Glad we got it all worked out. I hope you understand at least a small portion of where I am coming from on this issue.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2008 6:05 AM
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Scott
1142 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:05 AM
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("For the NBRC it's strictly kits paid, You don't even have to fly one kit, legit reason or not." I contend, that to follow Scott's logic is incorrect and not the intention of the rule. )
Cliff, all I indicated to you is what I know from years back when this was addressed, and I passed this on.
I am searching through old bullitens as it even addressed those club members that wanted to support the fly but not fly, but it is like looking for a neddle in a hay stack.
Cliff, if you know it to be different than there should be no DNFs at all , not open ended,and the rules would state kits "flown" not kits entered , all you have is an opinion and nothing more.
Cliff, this is a discussion forum and nothing more ,like I have said in nearly every post, take this to those that deal with these issues, WHY ARE YOU ON THIS HERE ???????
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1143 posts
Sep 03, 2008
6:37 AM
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Cliff, a DNF is a ghost kit any way you shake it , and a person that flys no kits is a ghost flyer.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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