George R.
1103 posts
Oct 24, 2008
8:17 PM
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hey Scott and Pete are you guys still having a fly off..????
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elopez
1776 posts
Oct 24, 2008
8:24 PM
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Yeah, what happend to all the fly offs?
Scott vs Pete
Scott vs Paul Gomez
SGVS vs LVRC
???? maybe next year...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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George R.
1104 posts
Oct 24, 2008
8:27 PM
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I thought they would be lots of Fun ,,,
George
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elopez
1778 posts
Oct 24, 2008
8:34 PM
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Hey George,
Are you going to try to set up the Las Vegas Challenge again for next year? Let me know, because I would like to enter and support it.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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George R.
1105 posts
Oct 24, 2008
9:57 PM
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Thanks
George
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Scott
1202 posts
Oct 25, 2008
8:11 AM
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Pete ? who
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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BA Rollers
92 posts
Oct 25, 2008
8:15 AM
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Efren, I think it was supposed to be Scott vs. Abel.
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spanky
629 posts
Oct 25, 2008
8:25 AM
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I WAS TALKING TO SCOTT AT THE VISELIA SHOW AND HE DOESNT WANT TO FLY AGAINST ABEL.
SPANKEY
SGVS
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fhtfire
1594 posts
Oct 25, 2008
9:10 AM
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Hey,
Make a team fly..take Pete and Paul and fly them against Scott and I....add up our points out of 2 flys.....I am not flying against Abel...he is on fire...LOL..I never heard of Abel and Scott challenging each other....but I think it would be fun to have Pete and Paul taking on Scott and Paul....
To ABEL...congrats on the fly!! good job....Miss talking to you like the old days when you had you AD3 website....anyway...good luck in the finals.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2008 9:11 AM
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fhtfire
1596 posts
Oct 25, 2008
1:38 PM
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Thanks...my mistake...all this time I thought it was the same ABEL....lol...give me the site for the race cars...I like everything fast...bikes, quads, cars, girls and rollers...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1597 posts
Oct 25, 2008
3:46 PM
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Awwww..he is the Mazda guy...drag racer right...rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1203 posts
Oct 25, 2008
7:05 PM
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(I WAS TALKING TO SCOTT AT THE VISELIA SHOW AND HE DOESNT WANT TO FLY AGAINST ABEL.
SPANKEY
SGVS )
LOL Spankey
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2008 8:28 PM
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Ballrollers
1537 posts
Oct 26, 2008
6:17 PM
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Paul,
I am amazed that you and Scott can afford to risk your good birds on challenge flys! You were just explaining to Earl's list, all the reasons your regions flyers can't fly, the kits they enter, in the NBRC fly because of the all the BOPS eating everybody up. I guess it depends on a lot things. LOL! Then Scott posts he has no problems to speak of with BOP'S. I guess it is a real selective BOP problem in some areas. Since you now have options as to when you fly your regional NBRC fly, I take it you will fly at the most advantageous time, to avoid the hawk migrations, high winds and all those things that are seasonable? It should make things better for you guys. If I am still the NBRC fly director next year, I hope to see the hawks and winds give all the regions a break next year. I hope all the regions' qualifiers can fly in the best conditions possible so we can level the playing field as much as possible. Good luck in your finals!
Cliff
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Scott
1204 posts
Oct 26, 2008
9:02 PM
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Paul, Abel would be who to challange if you want a real challange, personly I think he's got a hot team right now from the noise thats being made .
I don't have such a team right now, but the beauty is things are always changing.
(BA, I do remember Scott taking up the challenge to fly against Abel when Abel was calling everyone out.)
I think it was the state fly that we talked about, could be wrong though, I'm pretty good at putting my foot in my mouth LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2008 9:04 PM
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fhtfire
1598 posts
Oct 26, 2008
9:26 PM
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Cliff,
If you remember correctly....I flew two teams for the Fall fly...I do not have to much of a hawk problem.....I had my first hawk fly through today since about Feb or March. Did not go after the birds...just flew through. Scott has stated that he does not have to much of a BOP problem either....If you remember on Earls...I stated that there was a combination of reasons fliers did not fly...BOP was just one reason..the other reasons were losses and just plain old did not have a reason to fly if there 2nd team was not up to par. That may have been the reason Scott did not fly a second team....Scott lives a good 1.5 hrs one way from my place and again..for the same reasons..why travel 3 hrs for a team that is not ready...everyone has there reasons to fly.
So..as far as challenging...I have no problem with flying with Scott...we are the few in our regions that do not have huge problem.....so I have no problem flying...I have two strong teams right now and a about 18 in the young bird team..so the risk would be minimal...the whole reason we fly these things is to compete...I will compete anytime....it is all in fun...if I lose so what...if I win...so what..it is all in good fun. So...After the Finals...I would fly against Abel or anybody..again it is all in fun...He may get the whole sandwich...but I will get a bite out of it...lol....So Cliff....what are you trying to say.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2008 9:26 PM
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fhtfire
1599 posts
Oct 26, 2008
9:31 PM
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Cliff,
You have to remember too that our region is HUGE...I live in a totally different City and it does make a difference...I live 8 miles from Chuck Roe and he gets more hawks then me...but he is on the edge of a green belt so more hawks...I am on the edge of the city with about elevendy billion commies at the grain yards and a hop skip and a jump from a wild life refuge.....so Hawks have plenty of viddles in m neck of the woods.....In Sac(innercity) they have a huge problem....and Scott is about 1 hr from sac so again total different Geographic locations....So are you saying that our region cheated...I sure hope not.....The fliers that flew had the birds to fly for the second teams...it was THERE CHOICE not to fly. The option is always open.....again......would like a written statement from every flier on the reason they did not want to fly.....so that you can sleep at night.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1205 posts
Oct 27, 2008
5:25 AM
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Paul, you don't have to try and justify anything
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1538 posts
Oct 27, 2008
7:02 AM
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Paul,
I'm just trying to make some sense out of the communications on the internet and the appearance of a higher number of DNFs than usual. When questions are asked, I'm supposed to have all the answers, as Fly Director, you know! LOL! It's not about accusations or justifications.....The NBRC used to limit the regions flying their NBRC regional fly to a very limited time period. The regions brought their concerns before the EC and they voted to give much more latitude to the regions so they could pick a time that was more favorable to their flyers. One reason for this was to encourage more members to fly their birds and get their kits evaluated. I have high hopes that all the regions, as well as 9B, will utilize this change in policy and make every effort to find a time-frame where flyers can fly their kits and fly as many as possible.
Cliff
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 27, 2008 10:31 AM
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fhtfire
1600 posts
Oct 27, 2008
10:57 AM
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Cliff,
Take a look at history...there are no more DNF's than years past....this is the way It has been done since I started the fall fly in 04 or 03.......So there is no change in our region since I have been in the Fall fly ad according to the old timers it has been that way for a long time....so there are no more DNF's then usual..
So if people ask...just tell them to look up the rules and then they wont ask and you dont have to answer....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1539 posts
Oct 27, 2008
11:47 AM
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Paul,
The comparison being made is not this year verses years in the past in 9B. It is 9B, 9A and one or two other regions being compared with the rest of the regions. I, personally, see what your regions does and there is no explanation necessary. But from the number of questions I get, many don't understand how your region operates. I think most can see what you are doing now. You mention that yours is a "huge region"? That "huge" is relative to Nick's region (5)or the Texas region (6), and both of them seem to have far fewer DNF's than your region, and maybe even a greater hawk problem, based on what you are saying. Either your region is just a tuff place to fly; or most other regions are just more committed to flying their kits than you guys are. I don't have the answer. I suppose we are kicking the perverbial dead horse at this point...
Cliff
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BA Rollers
94 posts
Oct 27, 2008
11:49 AM
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It doesn't matter how many DNFs there are for the NBRC Fly. Only the WC specifies 50 percent flown. The NBRC doesn't demand any certain amount flown, it only mandates 1 qualifier for every 10 kits entered. The rest is irrelevant until the flyers vote to have a numeric value placed for the number of kits required to be flown. Until then anyone can think what they want but it just their opinion.
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fhtfire
1601 posts
Oct 27, 2008
12:12 PM
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I know about Nicks region..and that is fine they have more fliers then us and if they all choose to fly two kits good for them...I wonder what a gallon of gas in the midwest is compared to California....and they may have fliers that have two real strong kits and feel that they may have the kit to knock the top fliers of there perch...they may have more seasoned fliers too.....who know...I know we had a lot of new fliers this year as well as fliers that just stepped up ONLY to get our region qualifiers...4 fliers were not even going to fly and only flew when they heard we could get an extra qualifier and there A teams were not even ready...so...that is fine.....
If the rule is going to change...make a qualifier for every 5 fliers entered regardless of kits and problem is solved.....it is the exact same math on the region end...but the math will only hurt the NBRC on the other end...now you have 100.00 per qualifier instead of 200.00...if someone pushes to change the rules...they need to be hit in the head with a ball hammer...because they need to be knocked to there senses....the NBRC or mother ship would lose money...so.....my wisdom for the day
NEVER TRIP OVER DOLLARS TO PICK UP PENNIES!!!!
rock and ROLL
paul
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Ballrollers
1540 posts
Oct 27, 2008
1:01 PM
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BA,
Do you think the NBRC should adopt the WC fly policy that specifies 50% kits flown? When the NBRC looked at the fly rules, it made recommended changes and those changes were voted on and accepted by the flyers, they chose NOT to use the WC fly policy. From what I gather, the thinking was that any policy stating any number of kits necessary; that is what the regions would end up flying. If 70% was used, the regions would fly 70%. So they left it up to the regions to fly as many kits as possible and let the honor system prevail. The NBRC did not want to have the judge determine if the flyers excuse was plausible, so it was left as it was (before the WC made their decision.) I have no problem with whatever system is used to calculate the qualifiers, but I can assure you not all NBRC regions use the DNF status the same way. Most regions average 3-4 DNF's for 2 qualifiers, some even use less. Then a few regions use many more. As you mention, a region gets 1 qualifier for every 10 entered. When some regions record 10 or more DNF's, it gives the appearance to some that a qualifier was simply bought, and that kit did not earn its place in the finals. I have to answer questions such as, "Where are the rest of the scores?", "How can they do that?" "I see 3 qualifiers but I see only 17 scores. What happened?" These regions get to choose the most advantageous time of the year to fly their regional fly and still they can't fly a high percentage of the kits entered. Then I get, "If so-and-so region can get that many DNF's why can't I? I want to buy another qualifier." If all regions had the option to buy a second or third qualifier, and used 10 or more DNF's to get a second or third qualifier, then It would be fine. But not all regions understand this the same way. But I agree with you. "Opinions" are not fly policy and this is just another gray area that needs to be addressed sometime in the future.
Cliff
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BA Rollers
95 posts
Oct 27, 2008
1:42 PM
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Cliff, some of the regions you mention who have say 10 flyers enter 20 kits (2 each) and fly them all, usually don't have much choice beyond that. A vast number of regions in this country are only dabbled with flyers, one here, one there, hours apart, etc. Coming up with 10 flyers is generally a challenge in and of itself. Then you have areas like California where there are roller flyers all over the place. There are more people who have rollers and don't fly competition than there are guys who do fly the two big flys. Every region can work within the flexibility allowed by the system. Whether right or wrong, the system does not stipulate a mandatory number of kits that must be flown, either in summary or individually. There is no mention of an honor system in the club fly policy. The forebearers of the current rules and those who voted them into being left this subject wide open. Maybe for good reason. I don't know.
Here's some good and F'ed up 411 for ya. You recall my email to you with concern about our region in September. A bunch of guys in our region hated the RD at the time and asked to fly with another region. So they rallied up about 12 guys from our region and got them to fly with another adjacent region. Surprisingly this migration doesn't need any other approval other than that of the two region's RDs. Not even you nor the Prez have a say in this type of mutiny. The rules are clear. What resulted was both regions working harder to sign up more flyers. In the end both regions ended up with just over 20 flyers, each entering 2 kits each. Each region flew 50 percent of the kits entered although that is not mandatory. Numerous flyers flew both of their kits too. So the end result was those guys who didn't want to fly in their geographical region because of a beef with the now previous RD ended up having four qualifiers between their numbers and the flyers from the other region they joined. Guess what, all four of their qualifiers are right here in our (their) region. The actual region they joined didn't manage to beat the invading guys from our region. Our RD also managed to get more than 20 flyers, each entering 2 kits each and thus, four qualifiers. We have now, 8...yes that is EIGHT...qualifiers within a 30 mile radius. All of which would have been in the same region before the exodus. It is possible we could have had five or six qualifiers if nothing had changed.
So you can see just how ridiculus some of the rules are. There is no "gentleman's agreement" or "honor system". It is work within the rules and let the chips fall where they may. Anyone who doesn't like it need only to petition their RD for change. The only changes you can inflict upon the system are actually rules changes. Opinions matter not.
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Scott
1206 posts
Oct 27, 2008
2:16 PM
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Exactly Brian, the NBRC is kits paid,plain and simple,that is the rules.
All of this was determined prior to Cliff being on the scene and was pretty close to when dues went up along with kit costs to the NBRC went up due to the fly not supporting itself.
This all is real simple Cliff, take it to the EC for a change if it bothers you that much, I wouldn't hold my breath though due to the potential of loosing revenue.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1602 posts
Oct 27, 2008
5:30 PM
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Cliff,
We flew over 50% of our kits...you keep saying honor system...what does DNF have to do with the person earning the third qualifier....Again for the millionth time......we CHOSE NOT TO GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS in our region to SAVE GAS MONEY AND TIME>>>>>it is always that way....Like I said..we could have spent 100.00 extra in fuel....and time and watch a bunch of young birds fly in circles just so you and all the complainers can be happy.....no problem.....we could have put all zeros down or DQ if it makes you feel better...would a bunch of zeros and DQ make you and everyone else feel like the last qualifier was earned....and not bought....you know Cliff....there are folks in our region that had to scrape up to pay the 45.00 and to hell if I am going to force my fliers to spend more money just to go through the motions.....WHO CARES IF THERE ARE MORE QUALIFIERS.....
You seem to be bringing up our region so much...so are you saying that I am not honorable.... are you saying that we bought a qualifier...or we just chose to not fly for good reasons...not reason...reasons. We flew over half our kits...is that ok...man...why dont you tell the other jack asses that are complaining....to look at the rules...and shut there yappers....plain and simple...and if there is a problem...bring it up the the EC and I will fight tooth and nail to keep it the way it is ..becuase it brings money to the NBRC....and it give regions the OPTION to fly....and will keep fliers interested....and the more qualifiers..the more that will compete.
Everyone keeps bringing up "Bought qualifier"....so a person who qualifies with the DNF is not a legit qualifier....becuase that person did not beat out a bunch of young birds or kits that arent ready...or a kit getting ripped apart by a BOP.. or a kit that is not ready and DQ's....man...that makes it seem so more legit..THat is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.....How about if there is another qualifier and he or she put up a top kit...and was in the order in line that he or she made it...you tip your hat and say good job....I have never seen so much childish shit in my life.
NO WONDER WHY YOU CANT GET RD'S....its shit like this...I am even wondering if I want to be the RD next year....screw this....you follow the rules and get ridiculed...boy that makes me want to keep flying....and spend time to be an RD and then get ridiculed for following the rules...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 27, 2008 5:35 PM
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Scott
1207 posts
Oct 27, 2008
6:10 PM
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Pirate Paul,you really should take it easy on Cliff so that maybe next year he will let us borrow his sons name to use for a W/C qualifer, that is if he doesn't need it again LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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SpinCityRollers
228 posts
Oct 27, 2008
6:44 PM
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Sound Like the reason I am going to Quit Competition after this fly111
Thanks so Much For all the good times. And you guys can enjoy all the bikering and bitching and fighting while the birds still do all the work !!! what a shame the relationship we gain and loose over the love of one command thing the birds Itself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enjoy your birds today and the friends they bring becuase tommorrow you may not be here Roll on roller friends
This shit need to stop !!!!!!
Ladies and Gent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MADmAx
TheNew
P/S
Question yourselves who made us judges
Leave the things alone God sees all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and they will be exposed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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fhtfire
1603 posts
Oct 27, 2008
7:13 PM
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Loco,
I am a little fired up.....lol...you follow the rules...some people would mess up a W@#T dream...some would bitch if they won the lottery...anyway...I said my piece and that is it..rock and ROLL
Paul
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SpinCityRollers
229 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:16 AM
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Paul am with yah Just fly and be merry
That all
MAd max
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Ballrollers
1541 posts
Oct 28, 2008
7:27 AM
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Paul,
If the average DNF's were 10-15, then each region would be all understanding the rules the same way, but that is not the case. It appears, either all the other regions are wrong and the rules need to be better written so all the regions understand it the same way or something else is wrong. As you so eloquently pointed out, it is easier, cheaper, less work, less birds lost to hawks, less problems, etc., etc., to not fly all the second kits that were subsidized by the region. And I agree with every thing along those lines. But why is it so few regions follow that and do the same? It is also true that the only written rule states only that for every 10 kits entered the region gets on qualifier. The thing is...there are many regions that believe these rules only apply to kits that are flown because without kits flown ... there can be no regional competition. Kits must be flown to win, kits must be flown to compete. As you know, along with the "letter of the law" there is the "spirit of the law" and many regions believe while a region can follow the exact letter of the law, they can possibly misconstrue, the spirit of the law. This could be the case here. You ask "who cares" how many qualifiers there are? Some savvy flyers know full well, you double your odds to win if you fly two kits. That same mathematical logic holds true if a region flys one kit or two kits or three kits in the finals. With each kit flown, your odds of winning go up. Right? The fly would look a lot different, wouldn't it, if EVERY region were buying an extra qualifier or two with 10 or 12 kits they know will not be flown? We could allow one qualifier for each region but we have more flyers in some regions than others, so that would not be fair. So to find a way to make it as fair as possible to all regions, they came up with the 10 for 1 rule, without ever thinking that someone would think that not flying is the way to go. These fly contests are for kits to fly, NOT for entrants who say it's to too hard to fly the kits...just reward my region with a qualifier and I will be happy. Was that qualifier "EARNED" if the kits were not flown or was that kit bought? We have two opinions on this question. We have two ways of looking at this question. The Flyers have responsibilities to their regions who they represent and to the NBRC as the sponsoring organization. To fly a kit , any kit, is work, is a gamble, does show some degree of responsibility, and should be a chance to have those birds evaluated by a judge for a score, not just to get a DNF. Please don't disregard the regional flys, these are chances to compete, chances that are lost with each DNF taken. With every kit flown, there is a challange and a chance to learn. It makes no difference if they are good birds or youngsters, it is a challange to get the most out of even if ,the most you can ask, for is for them just to kit for 20 minutes. I will not be bringing this before the EC because most all the other regions post so few DNF's . But I will state my opinion if asked, as I know you will also. I truly believe, these are regional differences in interpretation and nothing more. It was this way before I got here, just like you are doing as was done before you. I'm not bustin' your balls, Paul. You're a good rollerman and a good RD. Without a better written explanation found in the fly policy......... We, both, are right about this issue!
Cliff
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Scott
1208 posts
Oct 28, 2008
8:40 AM
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( The Flyers have responsibilities to their regions who they represent and to the NBRC as the sponsoring organization. To fly a kit , any kit)
Cliff, just because "you" make stuff up as you go doesn't make it so, the flyer has no responibility to fly even one kit let alone two.
Last year you guys didn't even fly 10 kits in the 11 bird or the 20 bird and yet you still had a qualifier in each, not that it matters the NBRC is kits paid not kits flown,just very hypicritical is all.
In the W/C your region had actual ghost flyers (made up flyers) not sure what your agenda is here other than I'm in this region,for your info I am new in this particular region so you may want to spew you nonsence elsewhere as Paul and this region doesn't deserve it unless you just want to punish them for taking me in.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 9:51 AM
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Scott
1209 posts
Oct 28, 2008
8:42 AM
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PS Cliff , why did you feel a need to hijack this thread ? this thread had nothing to do with you or this silly topic.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1542 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:59 AM
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Scott,
Nobody is punishing anyone. If it were some other region posting the higher number of DNFs, we'd be using the letters of that region. It's not personal so quit making trying to make it personal. You are correct that our region had a few DNF's. Most all regions do. That is not the issue. The issue is... did we have 10 or more DNF's, either in the 20 or the 11, that would give the appearance that a second qualifier was bought? The average DNF for 2007 was less than 4 DNF's per region that had more than one qualifier. I think we can all accept that. Does anyone not understand that DNF's are a part of this system and has a small part to play in most regions earning their qualifiers? Why would region 9A fly in 2007, 38 kits and earn 4 qualifiers and use 2 DNF's if it was easier, cost less in gas, loose fewer birds, make it easier on the judge, get through quicker, etc. etc? Why would their flyers go to so much trouble? Why don't all regions fly low percentages of their kits? I guess the majority of the regions prefer to do it the hard way, prefer to fly kits entered, exibit sportsmanship; what a novel idea! I went over this with you before about the WC and there was a kit to back up each and every DNF for each and every flyer who entered. The WC runs different from the NBRC , you know that. Maybe you should go to the WC and get the rules changed to suit you.... If no one flew "one kit, let alone two," as you say, we would have a real small fly with little or no competition. I am very glad to report this idea is not widely accepted in a majority of the NBRC regions. Most flyers support the "PUT UM OR SHUT UP" as accepted Roller policy. From looking at the fly reports from 2008, most the regions reporting so far flew a high percentage of their kits. After the fly is over we can do another study to determine what regions utilized the most DNF's and why; the fewest DNF's and what the averages were for the NBRC as a whole. That's all we are looking at.
Cliff
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Scott
1210 posts
Oct 28, 2008
10:22 AM
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Cliff, it isn't any of your frigging business how many DNFs any region has,even if there is one DNF you can say a qualifer was bought, you are abusing your position by abusing RDs that are following the rules just because you have an agenda.
I suggest you take to someone that gives a monkeys ass about your opinion,because buddy, from this end you are sounding like a drunken circus midget on meth.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 11:15 AM
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Ballrollers
1543 posts
Oct 28, 2008
11:29 AM
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Scott,
As a flyer and competitor, it is as much my business as it is every other flyer's to both ask and answer questions about any region who posts scores that are significantly different from other regions. I am discussing a regional issue. Where you fly is not a concern. We are discussing how different regions utilize DNF's and does overuse cause an unfair advantage to regions who use far fewer DNF's. There are two lines of thought about if it is acceptable for a flyer to enter a fly, who has no interest in flying and should his kit or kits be considered in the numbers to earn a qualifier. Some think it should and some think differently. If anyone takes this personally, they should not. It is not about a person. It is about a concept that the rules seem to not address clearly and can be interpreted differently. The question is, why are you so bent outta shape about it. My Grandmother always told me....well....never mind. Yeah, I should have started a new thread. Sorry, if I hijacked your thread.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1544 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:01 PM
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Scott,
...Sounds like you have personal knowledge of drunken circus midgets on meth! Hmmmmmmm. LOL! Look, since you gave your opinion on this issue, I have the same opportunity,as does everyone else. I have not asked for, or made any demands for explanations. I am merely pointing out the public fly records. The explanations and reasons for why they look the way they do, were volunteered as part of the discussion. If that makes you uncomfortable, sorry, bud. This is not personal. This is a discussion to show competition flyers that they have options, and responsibilities: to themselves, to their region and to the other club members. We are in this together and you are free to take exception with that. The competitions are a success because of the teamwork between the flyers, the Regional Directors, the judges, and the Fly Director. Without everyone working together, we couldn't pull it off. Most regions seem proud when the fly records show they flew a high percentage of the kits entered, and they have a right to question regions who do not. To me, and to others, it indicates a commitment to the underlying sportsmanship principles. But, to each his own.....Like I said, I will not push the issue. One DNF will raise no eyebrows, in fact, one DNF is way below the average. Two or three doesn't get a rise out of anyone. Everybody expects that. But when 10 DNF's (or over 10) are used and 10 is the magic number to get a qualifier, can't you see why others are scratching their heads?
Cliff
PS. Looking back, I see that we got off on this tangent when I asked Paul how you guys could afford to fly these challenges when most guys in the country are having trouble fielding kits right now because of BOP. It sorta snow-balled from there. It wasn't intentional, and I apologize, once again. To be honest, I usually don't pay much attention to the name of the thread....the discussions seem to stray from the original topic quite a bit. I can see how you might have taken it as a personal attack, though. Peace out.
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 12:18 PM
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Scott
1211 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:18 PM
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Cliff, I could care less about a regions DNFs and doubt anyone else could either,the broken record stuff is just getting really old.
The rules are the rules, like I have said a thousand times,get them changed if they bother you that much,and until that time I will keep supporting the NBRC and the region by paying for two kits regardless of whether I fly one,two or none at all.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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BA Rollers
96 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:26 PM
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Until the day comes when the RULES disclose the "spirit of the rules and competition" and specifically outline the difference between flown and non-flown kits, any region not maximizing its potential is working at a loss. I don't care what another region thinks about my region. I don't care what a group of flyers think about another group of flyers. The system allows for the paying flyers to pay for up to two kits and it doesn't say they have to fly them. The rest is a mute point. Cliff you might want to see about getting the rules changed beause otherwise many of us aren't buying the "spirit of competition" speech.
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PR_rollers
1838 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:33 PM
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A better topic for this post should had been Scott Campbell verses Cliff Ball.. This thing keep going around and around in circles never going no where.if this post would roll with quality it be a damn good one ..This is the kind of thing that will turn off a newbie competitor.sounds personal at times take it somewhere else or email each other..you already got one guy above saying is going to quit next year..lets try to end this if is never going to go no where,,which it looks like its not....peace out...
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Ralph
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gabe454
1319 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:38 PM
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This kind of stuff makes you want to quit and not support the NBRC fall fly.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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BA Rollers
97 posts
Oct 28, 2008
12:59 PM
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This kind of stuff makes you want to what????????
Man, you guys definitely weren't in the military were you!
Anyone who lets words typed onto an html internet page change their outlook in any hobby or any facet of life has bigger issues he might want to have looked at...lol.
This game isn't all Kum-by-yah and happy go lucky. If you want a warm, cozy, sit by the fireplace and sing Christmas carols-type of hobby......let me tell you a little secret.....This Ain't It Homie!!!!!!
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Ballrollers
1546 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:12 PM
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Hehehehehe...good point, BA!
Scott,
By the way, I don't think I've taken the opportunity to congratulate you on achieving Master Flyer staus awarded at the convention. Sorry you couldn't be there to receive it in person in front of all your colleagues in the sport. That is no simple or easy accomplishment and we do not take it lightly. By the way, if you ever get the time and wish to volunteer for the National Fly Director post, you may find out all kinds of things that are important to others, that you did not know before. I am pleased that you will to continue to support the NBRC and your regional flys. That's the Scott Campbell we all know and love (choke)....LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 1:17 PM
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fhtfire
1604 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:29 PM
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Cliff,
"But why is it so few regions follow that and do the same?"
Cliff...because the regions dont do it the same does not make it wrong. Do I give a Ratts ass what other regions do. Maybe they dont want to pay the extra money.....maybe they dont support the region like we do....who knows.....we wanted an extra qualifier so I I pushed to get everyone to enter a second kit...with the option to fly if they wanted too...some fliers say that there second kit was not up to par....so what they supported the region...so the second kit was entered...I bet that if the scores were like top score 70 pts...then you would have saw a lot more second kits flown....they all had the option....
I think the way the rules are written...it is STUPID not to enter as many kits as possible to get the most out your regions.....and get the NBRC some more money..you kill two birds with one stone.
Now if the kits were true ghost kits then you could bitch....or complain or whatever you are doing...and I still have not figured that out....I would be pissed only if they were ghost kits...but we could have flown all the kits if we wanted too...but we chose not to for numerous reasons again.....
CLIFF>>>WHY WOULD ANYBODY WANT TO WASTE TIME AND MONEY IF THEY DONT HAVE TO>>>THAT IS A NO BRAINER!!! THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE TO ME BETWEEN A DNF AND A BIG ZERO>>>OR A BIG DQ WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE>>>>would everybody feel all warm and fuzzy if they were all DQ's or zeros or 5 or 10 points...I know my youngbird team would get a zero..they dont roll yet...lol....
Cliff...to be honest I really do not know what your problem is....the rules are what they are...I mean...I would hate it if you were a cop...pulling somebody over for going 55mph...and they tell you that is the rules and the posted speed limit...and then you say...Well...I am going to give you a ticket anyway..because Most of the traffic on this bumpy road is going 45...so I feel it should be 45...so here is your ticket...even thought the RULE is 55...that is what you are doing...making up your own rules.....then backing up your own rules because others did it one way or the other....
Other regions can do what they want....Maybe the others did not have a second kit to fly, or maybe they felt it was not worth 20.00 to enter a team of young birds just for a qualifier....if I were you as the RD for the NBRC...I would shut up and let the money keep coming in.....do you realize that in our region alone...if we chose not to enter our second kits the NBRC would have lost 300.00.....that is a one way plain ticket midwest the California....just on DNF kits....
Maybe the other regions should support the NBRC and there regions and enter the extra kits to let the next best flier go to the big show....you know the fliers that are all on the bubble.....usually some regions will have 2 or 3 real strong consistent fliers...if you have two spots...the guys in the middle feel that if the top fliers dont choke they will never have a shot...guess what...that extra spot in our region opened the door to a first year FF flier and he is excited as a peach orchard bore....so if we had two qualifiers......then ...get my point...
Cliff..maybe I need some color crayons and draw you a picture...I am getting very irritated with the way you are handling this.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1606 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:39 PM
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Cliff,
The rules are written so that a 3rd grader can figure them out...not to hard to read...kits flown....so that is a lame excuse....the rules are being followed by all regions...kits entered..some chose to not enter as many kits for whatever reason....
Cliff..I am going to ask you in an open forum...ARE YOU ACCUSING REGION 9B of CHEATING AND NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES>>>YES OR NO>>>
CLIFF>>>ARE YOU ACCUSING REGION 9B OF NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES BECAUSE OTHER REGIONS CHOSE NOT TO ENTER SECOND KITS
YES OR NO
CLIFF ARE YOU ACCUSING REGION 9B OF HAVING GHOST KITS>>>>
YES OR NO
Maybe you should ask the other regions why they did not enter more kits.....is it money....a poor region....is it time....is it BOP...is it all the above and no extra money for the kits....maybe they did not think about it.....
AGAIN....for the last time...we could have flow on kits but for what reason...to waste Money and time...or how about....just so Clif and the others that seem to bitch about everything....can say....Look instead of 15 DNF..they have 10 zeros and 5 10pt kits...oh....that really makes me feel that the last qualifier was legit...or how about....why waste gas and time for kits that have no chance or BOP or whatever...and be fine with it....I could see you complaining if a member of 9B called you and said....that I did not let them fly the second kit.....everyone had the option to fly a second team..
We are complaining about rules that were not broken...and we are setting the NBRC up to lose a lot of money.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1213 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:52 PM
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Paul, you are doing exactly what every "good" RD does, and that is maximaize the amout of flyers and qualifiers within the rules, Good Job !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1214 posts
Oct 28, 2008
1:56 PM
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(By the way, I don't think I've taken the opportunity to congratulate you on achieving Master Flyer staus awarded at the convention. Sorry you couldn't be there to receive it in person in front of all your colleagues in the sport. That is no simple or easy accomplishment)
Thanks Cliff, wish I could have been there also, not often I miss a convention.
PS and didn't even need the DNFs that don't count LOL
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 2:38 PM
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fhtfire
1607 posts
Oct 28, 2008
2:03 PM
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BA YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! with the below post....case closed.....now lets see if cliff can get the rule changed to no DNF's...and then the NBRC loses thousands of dollars....maybe after that the NBRC will raise our dues to compensate for the FALL FLY dollar losses....if you were a CEO or on that TV show with Donald Trump well...."YOUR FIRED"...LOL>>LOL>. ....but Cliff..you are like a CEO of the fall fly and your job is to make the NBRC money and save money were it can be saved...other then that.....Stay if your corner office...LOL....
rock and ROLL
Paul
"""""Until the day comes when the RULES disclose the "spirit of the rules and competition" and specifically outline the difference between flown and non-flown kits, any region not maximizing its potential is working at a loss. I don't care what another region thinks about my region. I don't care what a group of flyers think about another group of flyers. The system allows for the paying flyers to pay for up to two kits and it doesn't say they have to fly them. The rest is a mute point. Cliff you might want to see about getting the rules changed beause otherwise many of us aren't buying the "spirit of competition" speech. """"
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Ballrollers
1547 posts
Oct 28, 2008
7:54 PM
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Paul,
Well, I thought we had brought this topic to a close, but I will respond to your questions, since you have asked. In answer to each of your questions, the answer is NO. I am making no accusations. I made some observations; you volunteered an explanation; and I have accepted that. I have merely been identifying the observations that others are making and asking about. Why should you care, you ask? Well, you might care because this is not the first time it has come up. The issue was also raised by the World Cup GC a couple years ago about the same region. He was ready to disqualify the region from the WC fly after the scores were posted......because he was convinced that there were ghost kits when he saw less than half the kits posting scores and three qualifiers paid for. As you know, unlike the NBRC rules, the World Cup rules say that 50% of the kits must be flown, but they also strictly forbid paying for ghost kits. The kits must actually exist to be entered. In the WC Executive Committee discussion that followed(I am the World Cup Southeast Regional Director), it was decided to let the fly go forward and a discussion would be held after the fly to determine the disposition of the region and whether the WC fly rules had been violated. Well, the Operation High Roller bust soon followed, the World Cup GC resigned for personal reasons, and the issue never came up again, as the WC struggled to find a new GC, and the hobby reeled under the impact of Operation High Roller. Whether anyone pays any attention to these opinions and observations of other competition flyers and officers of the competitive flys is, of course, your business and up to you guys. But don't shoot the messenger. Believe it or not, I'm only trying to help. There seems to be too much collateral damage to continue this public discussion. You know my personal e-mail address and my phone number.
Cheers,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 7:59 PM
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Scott
1215 posts
Oct 28, 2008
8:53 PM
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Cliff,what the hell are you talking about, I swear that you make this stuff up as you go,you were very new around that time I would think.
Lets give the real story a whirl here shall we :but for starters it wasn't Pauls region,it was another.
The W/C director brought it up on the 2nd kits paid for but not flown thinking that there had to be a legit reason not to fly the 2nd kit right after the rule change that at least one kit had to be flown, it was a simple mis- understanding on his part.
But even if it did go down the way you say (which it didn't) all that is needed is a legit reason not to fly the first kit,the judge must ok it
Prior to the rule change the W/C was the same as the NBRC is today in that it evolves around kits paid, also it wasn't Pauls region it was another, and the only reason that region was brought up in question was because it was one of the first to fly and one of the first fly reports under the new rule.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 9:40 PM
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