3757
1073 posts
Dec 03, 2008
12:02 PM
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"You're pissing on my leg and calling it rain..." LMAO
Bill Pensom has done more for the roller hobby than any man living or dead!
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2035 posts
Dec 03, 2008
12:18 PM
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Ezeeda, Paul didn't think it was silly..it was Scott...
but that statement to me is putting the man down in my book..
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Ralph
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fhtfire
1693 posts
Dec 03, 2008
1:25 PM
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While we are on the subject, Paul, just who out there is just as knowledgable as Pensom was? The rollermen on your list? I would bet that practically all of them learned from studying Pensom.
DUH!! That is how most people learn by studying past legends....Genetics people study Darwins theories.....but they are so far ahead of Darwin...but I guess because they studied Darwin...I guess they are not as smart....Officers study War tactics from past war legends...but does that mean the Generals of today are not as smart as past generals......I know that Napoleon would know exactly how to operate a Predator drone.....or the wright brothers....Engineers still study there plans and how they came up with aircraft design...but I guess the engineers of today are not legite because they studied the wright brothers..Pilots and aircraft designers study old designs...did you know that the flying wing bomber (stealth Bomber) or stealth technology and the wing design is from WW2...The germans came up with the idea...but I guess the US government is not as advanced as the WW2 engineers because they studied the old technology.....and they are not as smart either....yeah right.....
Second why write a book....you can get plenty of information from the internet....I have learned more form breeders on this site then I ever did from a book of 50 years......
rock and ROLL
Paul
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BA Rollers
141 posts
Dec 03, 2008
1:27 PM
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I've made it publicly known when asked that I am not a Pensom-ite and don't hold him to some high regard as some others choose to. He was the first knowledgable guy to bring birds to this country. He was blessed with the gift of gab, the gift to be able to put thoughts into words better than most, the gift of having a higher-than-average animal husbandry sense which he could easily describe.
While some people treat him as though he is the roller pigeon Christ or some kind of roller pigeon Messiah sent from the perches of Zion, the reality as far as I am concerned is he was an estute man with many talents that were simply better than most other people he shared a fancy with. And because of his ability to see what other people were not conditioned to see and because he could put his thoughts and ideas into words that made sense to others, he was regarded with a higher principal.
As some have said numerous times in fact, Pensom was a man most likely that was before his time. The words he wrote and the opinions he shared 50 years ago, if said today for the first time, would not hold the same reverance as they did so long ago. Hence what we are experiencing here is the chosen loyalty to a man who simply figured things out a little better than most others of that time. I've read his book twice. The first time I read it was in the first year back into rollers. I gleaned some interesting information from it. But it didn't take long to figure out that what was Bill's ideal wasn't mine. He spoke of the individual and I breed for the team. The allowances, opinions and decisions are often different between the two as I see it.
I read through his book once again a few years ago and didn't come away with anything that I felt would improve my understanding of these pigeons. I have shaped my own understanding over the years, and not surprisingly much of it is simply pigeon common sense as far as I am concerned.
So yes I agree with the statement about his book being for the book for beginners because it gives them a sense of direction from an authorative point of view. However in my opinion that is where it ends as what is required to excel today has evolved since the time that Bill was flying pigeons.
Paul--you asked a question in your last post asking Paul F to name people who are just as knowledgable as Pensom was. In only need to name one. Monty Neibel. I learned more from Monty's knowledge than I have from reading Pensom's book. That isn't to take away from Bill's accomplishments and knowledge, but you asked for someone to name one, and I just did.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2955 posts
Dec 03, 2008
1:47 PM
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Every roller man is a bricklayer, some have laid no brick while others have laid more than they will ever get credit for.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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deano
152 posts
Dec 03, 2008
1:59 PM
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you put cat among the pigeons their john loll
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ezeedad
842 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:05 PM
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BA... How did you learn from Monty Neibel? Most of what I learned about him came through Brian Krog....
Gomez
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j .wanless
509 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:06 PM
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hi all deano cant get a good topic going on the u.k site so i thought id stir a little on this side .but this is better than any roller book ive ever read.thats the beauty of this site its not what one man thinks its about everyones oppinion.keep it coming .
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BA Rollers
142 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:11 PM
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PG, there have been numerous articles/letters written by Monty posted in the NBRC bulletin, online and many of them on Earls over the years. I have several saved on my older computer I can try and dig out. Krog and Mee have shared numerous ones with us too. Does that answer your question?
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ezeedad
843 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:13 PM
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Paul,
You wrote this...roght after Scott's post.
"Guys PLEASE!! Nobody is knocking Pensom...."
It was clearly a knock to call his book silly..
I do know that it is complicated to write a book... This is [robably a bad time to mention this..., but I have one about 95% finished. I want to get it to the printer next month... It will be kind of silly...in some parts...
Paul G
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deano
154 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:16 PM
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i agree john to many people messing around on uk thats why people stopped posting?
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ezeedad
844 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:18 PM
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BA... Great...!! That's just what I was saying... that we need to hear from those kijnds of guys.... Monty Neibel was a legend.... But you could drop the attitude...LOL..!!
Paul G
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fhtfire
1694 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:44 PM
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Paul G.
You took one word that Scott said and ran with it....Scott is Scott and if you know him as well as I do....you will know that he was not knocking Pensom....It was a figure of speech....That is why I said I dont think it is silly.....Scott was saying the book was silly compared to his other writings....read his whole text...
Scott did post this....."Certainly not to me, all that matters to me is my own little world in my backyard,but next year I will be pitting them against the best once again,and I can thank Pensom for giving me the ancestery of his birds to do such."
His last line...I CAN THANK PENSOM>>>>for being able to fly against the best....Why dont you run with that whole post...obviously Scott has a respect for Pensom.....
Or how about this post....
"Why would that be ? my birds all go back to Mc Cully and are considered as old line Pensoms as there are."
So why would a man Knock Pensom when his birds go back to Pensom...and scott has kicked ass with his family......
Again..reread the post....it is a silly little beginner book.....compared to his other writings....Most things to old timers are silly when you look back....Hell...here is an example...when New firefighters throw ladders in the academy.....they have to yell out everything they are going to do...Prepare to bed ladder...Bed Ladder...Prepare to Beam Ladder...Beam Ladder...Prepare to Raise Ladder..>Raise Ladder....PRepare to extend ladder...Extend ladder.....Now when these new little firefighter actually get on the fireground.....and start yelling commands...theses SILLY commands I stop them and say....Throw the gosh damn ladder and put the silly little commands in your back pocket.....
Now are the commands truly silly...know....in the academy they are LEARNING and yelling out the commands builds teamwork...and they are learning to throw a ladder without commands and dont even know it.....but as 20years in the fire service and a Captain...I tell you this....on the fireground those commands are SILLY>...get my drift....Am I knocking the person that invented the commands...or IFSTA or the NFPA...nope...I am saying it is silly when you get experience...it is silly compared to the real fire ground...
So the book is silly compared to Pensoms more advanced writings....was it a word I would have used no....but Knowing Scott on a personal level I know what he meant..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
845 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:46 PM
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Paul.
"Second why write a book....you can get plenty of information from the internet....I have learned more form breeders on this site then I ever did from a book of 50 years......
The problem with getting knowledge from the internet is that there are so many opinions, and a lot of the opinions are coming from people who aren't really thinking what they are saying through.
For instance, If I wanted to hear about what Monty Neibel thouight, how he managed his birds, etc, I would prefer to hear it directly from him.
What I like about the internet, on the other hand is that you learn that there are a lot of ways to look at a particular issue, and you can get feedback. It's great... We can learn from everyone. Sometimes a long time breeder can learn from a newbie...
You also say... "come on Paul....everything improves over time......Pigeon husbandry...even improves...."
But Paul, we all start off from a place of ignorance. We don't start off from where Pensom left off. It would be great if this knowledge was somehow transmitted genetically, and we could come into the world experts, and improve from where we started.
Accessibility to knowledge has improved..true.., but it is only as good as ones ability to incorporate it what he is doing. There will always be good breeders and not-so good breeders, regardless...
I agree with most of what you say... I'm just focusing on our differences.... Sorry...it's just a few things kind of stand out.
P Gomez
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Scott
1304 posts
Dec 03, 2008
3:55 PM
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Brian, you are right about Nieble , he had real "depth" in his thinking where the breed is concerned.
I'm going by his "own" writings here, what these guys give is is something to ponder, but like anything it can only go so far before we have to pick up the ball yourself and learn hands on,good post.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 3:56 PM
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Scott
1305 posts
Dec 03, 2008
4:35 PM
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(Paul and George,
If you say can't see that calling Pensom's book a silly little book for beginners is a knock on Pensom, then there is a big gap in your credibility as far as I'm concerned.)
It is a book of basics for beginners ,nothing more and nothing less,if you aren't beyond it I'm not sure what to tell you Paul, and no "not" everything in that book applies.
Most of what I know about these birds are an accumulation of a lot of info from alot of different people coupled with hands on experiance, cut and dry.
But also Pensom spring boarded much of the info out there today, mostly concerning the mental aspect of the birds.
Sadly though some misinterpet the context of what was written and actualy think that breeders should be picked off the ground instead of flying them out hard and then evaluating them off of the ground to balance the matings.
Me, I'm a flyer,plain and simple, I look at these birds as the athletes they are not some conversation piece to play with that has noting to do with why the breed was developed to begin with.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 4:50 PM
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fhtfire
1695 posts
Dec 03, 2008
4:58 PM
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Paul=
You posted....
"The problem with getting knowledge from the internet is that there are so many opinions, and a lot of the opinions are coming from people who aren't really thinking what they are saying through."
So many opinions...that is what you want to learn...try different things....The many opinions is no different then reading many different books...everyone has an opinion....and you take what you can use from every opinion..you try it if it works you keep it.....and as far as some not thinking about what they are saying....well..you weed through it.
"For instance, If I wanted to hear about what Monty Neibel thouight, how he managed his birds, etc, I would prefer to hear it directly from him."
This makes NO SENSE....of course it would be better to hear it directly from him....but last time I checked...YOu are not hearing it directly from Pensom and neither am I....so you comment makes no sense at all...I would love to hear about AMerican history for George Washington...but well...he is dead too....
"What I like about the internet, on the other hand is that you learn that there are a lot of ways to look at a particular issue, and you can get feedback. It's great... We can learn from everyone. Sometimes a long time breeder can learn from a newbie..."
This part goes against what you said at the begining...see above...
rock and roll
Paul
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winwardrollers
49 posts
Dec 03, 2008
6:54 PM
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Give me a book of... How to breed animals... By J Leroy Smith and you would have my attention.
I personally think he is the... Main... reason we have some great rollers today in the USA after Pensom imported.
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 8:20 PM
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Canspinners
274 posts
Dec 03, 2008
7:21 PM
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Lets be respectful and expand our knowledge ....I want to hear more about other breeders and competitors such as Bob Brown the man dominated in the competitions in britain . would like to know more about his birds .
John Can you tell me more about his birds ? compared against Barrets or Pensoms What was the difference with the brown line?
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Canspinners
275 posts
Dec 03, 2008
7:34 PM
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Rock and roll paul you you speak the truth ...some of these guys are just yanking your chain
Pensom deserves credit for what he did in the US hoever there were other greats as well that did not reach the US
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winwardrollers
51 posts
Dec 03, 2008
8:36 PM
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John Wanless has..... great birds ...I would be interested in learning about ..John Wanless is alive.
Brad winward
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Scott
1306 posts
Dec 03, 2008
9:22 PM
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(Give me a book of... How to breed animals... By J Leroy Smith and you would have my attention.
I personally think he is the... Main... reason we have some great rollers today in the USA after Pensom imported.
Brad Winward )
Killer thought Brad,but it takes more than overall breeding knowledge,but is another piece of the puzzle to producing the right birds in better percentages.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 9:30 PM
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J_Star
1799 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:40 AM
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Most of the knowledge about rollers are nothing more than pigeon common sense.
Jay
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Ballrollers
1612 posts
Dec 04, 2008
8:21 AM
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Good perspsectives, Paul. For some reason, anyone who speaks out objectively trying to put Pensom and his writings into proper perspective in the history of the hobby and make it relevant today, is immediatley attacked as the anti-christ. What's up with that???????
Cliff
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fhtfire
1696 posts
Dec 04, 2008
8:50 AM
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Jay Star...you are a front line winnner.....you win the cigar.....that is why I keep saying it is not brain surgery....common sense.....most make the mistakes of looking into it way toooo much.
Cliff...are you talking me Paul or The other Paul....but If it is me you agree with....then god damn I am buying a lottery ticket today...we agreed on something...LOL...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
1209 posts
Dec 04, 2008
8:52 AM
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Cliff
I think the about that old saying " The truth hurts"
The novice
George
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ezeedad
846 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:49 AM
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Scott, Paul,
Scanning what you guys have written, I think there is one truth that stands out. It is that whatever information we get, we will still have to put it to the test, and let the birds show us what is right.
Paul G
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Alohazona
504 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:03 AM
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George,
Paul,is the only guy on this whole thread that personally knew Pensom,was offered up good birds from him,was and is still inspired by him.It must be hard for Paul to even sit in his chair and listen to people go on babbling about some one they have sized up by reading his book.
Paul is a teacher,the lesson being taught here is on one hand you Thank pensom for delivering quality birds to the U.S.,but now that I am beyond the level of his book,I can discount it as kidde dribble.
My lesson is this,be Thankful the birds are here for us, and leave it at that.To continue on about people we don't even know personally, is a waste of time.Time is better spent looking after our familys and our little performers...Aloha,Todd
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ezeedad
847 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:07 AM
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Paul the Fireman,
I am starting to think that you just like to argue... Maybe a lot of down time between alarms..?? Good...!! But, you are not right about what I wrote. I did not contradict myself... Aren't there both good and bad things about the internet, etc..?
Second, Pensom wrote his book...so when you read it you are reading it straight from him... Right??
But if someone does not take the time to gather his thoughts and to put them in a form that is consistant them all we can get is a hodgepodge of ideas.
I would like to see J. Wanless write an article or two about what he really finds most important about breeding and flying rollers. He is highly respected.. Plus he started this thread, and now is chuckling at how the guys are going at each other. I think it's time to put the heat back on him...!!
Wanless...!!! Are you listening..!!?? Write something...!! We don't want you to become lost in roller history.
P Gomez
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maxspin
324 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:24 AM
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J. wanless,
I would love to read that old piece on all of the old fanciers before and after Pensom. Sounds like it would be good reading. Is there any way to cat a copy of the journal over here across the pond.
Keith Maxwell
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ezeedad
848 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:36 AM
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Hi Todd,
Thanks a lot.. I do feel a fairly close connection to Pensom and to his book. Pensom gave me my first copy... free.. It was an overprint and didn't have a cover..... I got over a dozen birds from him, and practically all of them rolled with a hole..
I think that those who dismiss the book as simple should read more carefully..
The way I see it is that unless there is someone who can match his birds as well as explain how to produce more of the same, then I would be doing myself a favor to ignore the "experts", and continue to rely on his advice.
Have a happy holiday season Todd...
Paul G
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j .wanless
516 posts
Dec 04, 2008
11:04 AM
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hi all
1st paul tell me what you want + i will write it no prob. kieth we have many journals but most of it is about present day flyers .with a few pieces on the old fanciers.that ken white wrote i think there is 6 pages.i will phone our secretary tomorrow + if she agrees i will put her email adress on so you can work it out how much it would cost to get it to you.
they cost us about 3 £ which in dollars are about 6$.
ive just been looking through some old stuff that i will post on the more u.k imfo,but something you might be intrested in was the pensom book was advertised it was in 1960for 1£ which was2$.
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ezeedad
849 posts
Dec 04, 2008
11:55 AM
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J.Wanless,
Thanks... I would really like you to tell us what is most important to you in breeding rollers. Like what to you look for when selecting your birds. How long have you been breeding your strain. Where did the foundations of your srain come from?
Also who were the greatest rollermen in the past. Why were they considered the best? Are there any strains that have been maintained as they were from the old days?
Is there a divide among British rollermen as far as what types of rollers they strive for? Do you have any individual bird competitions like in the old days?
What strains of rollers are the most respected in England? What has happened to the competition type rollers that Pensom brought to the U.S. to demonstrate the differences between roller types?
Can We in the U.S. subscribe to any of the British journals? Do you think that Tony could network with your journal archives to help get some of this stuff out? .... Uhh.... I better stop... I'm getting carried away..
Paul G
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j .wanless
518 posts
Dec 04, 2008
12:37 PM
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hi paul
would be a pleasure to answer your questions.i will put my home adress up at the end of the post as you may have some thing i may be intrested in.
the most important things i have to have is control as i live in a built up area with 2 storey houses all around me.but speed + style are my other prioritys.
my main cock is a 94 bird almost all my loft come through him + another cock i used i bred in 1988.the 1st cock we call him the 45 i had his father he was born in 83.the 83 cock was a cross off a graham dexter hen +a barry shackleton cock.the great great grandfather to the 1988 cock which was no 54 was a bob brown bird.lots of people say they have the old familys theres still 1 or 2 i think have kept them pure but would not swear on it.one person i think as kept pure is a dave mossely ,he keeps ollie harris birds theyre deep + fast. in my area we have supposedly got the fastest birds that there is so every one that visit my region say.most of the rest of england seem to fly a slower bird but they seem to have a bit more activity than oursin general.we dont have single bird comps any more.but we do have a national individual in with the kit + also in the aerc which is our biggest club we have a rose bowl individual again they are flown with our kits.these are the best y/b or o/b in the country. i would have to say the most sought after birds are my own ,george mason ,and deano fosters. by competition rollers do you mean what we call the badges.they are very very short but break all the time.if so they are numerous in birmingham areas.but we have nothing to do with them.i will try + put our secratarys adress on tomorrow for the journals as i sell them for the aerc
+ have 2 boxes of them .as for tony using them i cant see why not but will have to check with my commitee.
paul my e mail adress is
wanless_john@yahoo.com.
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Scott
1312 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:07 PM
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(Scott, Paul,
Scanning what you guys have written, I think there is one truth that stands out. It is that whatever information we get, we will still have to put it to the test, and let the birds show us what is right.
Paul G )
That is the entire package in a nutshell Paul
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1313 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:09 PM
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(by competition rollers do you mean what we call the badges.they are very very short but break all the time.)
Yes he was talking about competition tumblers,different breed all together
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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spinningdemon
34 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:11 PM
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Winward rollers,
I have a great article by smith that was actually written about his oriental rollers ( Wich he also exceled in ) If you would like a copy let me know.
Smith was an animal breeding great with cattle, pigeons and some of the finest light brown leghorn chickens ever.
Smith was a very tight inbreeder as proved by his peds. That should tell use something.
I agree Smith is one of the top breeders. Winward rocks to!
David Curneal
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ezeedad
851 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:13 PM
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John W,
Thanks for your response... Those names.. That's what I like hearing... Dexter, Shackelton, Harris, Bob Brown, Mason... Names I've heard repeatedly, but I don't get a clear picture of.. David Mossely.. I don't recall hearing about him...and Deano either...
I was curious to know why your George Mason and Deano Fosters are the most sought after.?
Yes, those birds are called the competition badges. Have any of the guys been sneaking some of that blood into your competitions? How do you prevent it?
Control and speed have been my main priorities too far years, because I was in an area with practically all roof tops and concrete.
I would like to get some of those journals, and subscribe if possible. Do you have back issues?
Paul G
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ezeedad
852 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:18 PM
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David,
You said.. "Smith was a very tight inbreeder as proved by his peds. That should tell use something."
More people need to see that... There is too much crossing of strains...
Paul G
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j .wanless
520 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:30 PM
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hi all
paul yes we do have back dated journals leave it with me + i will sort it for you.the 4 names i have gave you are probaly the most succesful flyers in the u.k.
there was a rumor that someone did try once to cross the badges to rollers but its only a rumor.as for the badges like scott says they are really tumblers so they dont intrest most roller men.although 1 or 2 do fly them.but thats further down the country .where i live most people have never seen them.
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p,robo
6 posts
Dec 04, 2008
1:44 PM
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excellent post john,ithink you have got the whole of the usa talking rollers,great stuff,keep flying.
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j .wanless
521 posts
Dec 04, 2008
2:15 PM
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hi robbo cheers mate its just good to talk about rollers with 1 or 2 who know what they are on about.
as our side as gone all to pot in my oppinion.what do you think.by the way you lads across the pond .robbo flys some of the best quality birds in the u.k. after me + deano of course lol.
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fhtfire
1697 posts
Dec 04, 2008
3:43 PM
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Paul G.
First of I was not arguing with you....I was trying to protect the original post when everyone started to hammer the brit and saying he was bashing Pensom...when he was not...second...I have never bashed Pensom in this thread.....or said that I did not have respect for the man.....I was trying to pinpoint some things that you were saying that did not make sense to me...like giving credit where credit is do....nothing more nothing less....it was not even a debate...because i was not disagreeing with what you were saying...I was trying to show that we were on the same page....and Pensom is respected as well as others....you my friend dug in to protect Pensom when he does not need protecting....maybe it was because you knew the man personally....but Trust me...I think Pesnom was a Pioneer and a legend.....and was a stud pigeon breeder in his day and age....I think his book is well written and the best Roller book I have read....for a beginner.....again...we were on the same page and I dont think you even knew it.....as far as reading pensoms book it is coming from him.....well reading Monte's writings is like talking to him....anyway....the internet is the best thing that happened to roller flying and basically everything is better because of the internet....information passed at light speed....what more do we want......it has helped this hobby to the third degree...anyway.....I never thought we were arguing...more or less debating....but not even that...because we were on the same page with alot of stuff..
And remember....I never said the book was not good reading...I still read it...and I never said it was Silly...lOL....The copy is in my Truck and I read it if I am waiting for my son to get out of school..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 3:46 PM
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Scott
1316 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:32 PM
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(...and I never said it was Silly...lOL)
You told me earlier that both are Paul G and the book are wittle silly willys,what gives Pirate ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 4:33 PM
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ezeedad
853 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:37 PM
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Paul,
What I took offense to was Scott calling Penspm's book silly, ect... Then you defended Scott... so did George.. So I defended Pensom's book. Scott has said positive things about Pensom.. true..it would be foolish to deny his contributions, but to call the book which for decades has been considered the bible of the breed..at least here in the U.S... merely a silly little book for begionners is clearly a slap. I don't care what kind of spin anyone tries to put on it..
But OK...!! I understand what you mean... But you see, if you compliment a guy a hundred times, then slap him in the face once, which one is he going to remember most? That is what Scott did.
Anyway, some good things have come out of this thread. I have seen the positive side of what J. Wanless was saying from the very beginning. I think we sort of hashed out the reasomns why things are thia way. I also think that perhaps we can develop a means of acknowledging and giving more credit to the other great breeders of Pensom's era as well as before.
P Gomez
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gotspin7
2064 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:42 PM
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Paul, how much do you really believe in pensom's work?
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Sal Ortiz
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Scott
1318 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:45 PM
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Paul, we have no bible on the breed, if that book is it in your mind where the breed is concerned then you live in a very small world where this breed is concerned,you may want to expand it a little by at least leaving your back yard and LA.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
854 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:17 PM
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Sal,
I believe that there is a lot of truth in the book. I am sure that Pensom knew much more about the breed than I ever will. His father bred rollers. He was widely traveled in the birthplace of the breed. He got birds from the best breeders of the time.
I think the best way to learn rollers is by flying and breeding them, of course.
There are parts of the book that I don't agree with. There are other parts that I wonder about. But that book and other things I have learned by way of Pensom has been the compass that has guided me for the most part.
How about you Sal? Who have you gotten the basics or underlying philosophy of rollers from?
Paul G
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ezeedad
855 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:23 PM
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There you go again Scott... I see a pattern here... Always trying to belittle... First Pensom's book... then again it's me....
I have heard Pensom's book called the bible of the breed several times in the past... That is what I meant.
Paul G
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gotspin7
2076 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:32 PM
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Paul, I will say I do agree with you, the only thing that I guess changed some of my beliefs about Pensom, is when I was given a copy of the writings that Tom put together, you could see were his thoughts were changing (Pensoms).
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 6:04 PM
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