Mayo
71 posts
Jan 18, 2009
1:21 PM
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Let's all sing (Pigeon poooooooooooooooooooooo on my sholdersssssssssssssss make me happyyyy! My Rollerssssssssssssss in the skyyyyyy make meeee smile! lmao! MaYo
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Ty Coleman
512 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:19 PM
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Agree or disagree about James Turner's roller pigeon accomplishments, he DID SOMETHING! How many can say that? LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Tony, I hav'nt ever thought about it like that. Every time someone has a negative remark or comment to make about the family it sure does say something for them.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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cballlofts
18 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:59 PM
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Ty,
I'm not trying to argue with You or start another war on here, But,The 20-Bird Kit that Charlie Stack won the FF with consisted of a couple Turners,a couple Jake-N-Bakes and the rest were straight Danny Horner based Jaconettes. We cornered Him at the I-85 Fly-Off last year and that is what He told everyone.
Chuck
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Ty Coleman
514 posts
Jan 18, 2009
4:13 PM
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I heard different but I'll have to agree with you.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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wa1tmaster
GOLD MEMBER
6 posts
Jan 18, 2009
5:09 PM
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Hey Chuck the Nov Dec 2007 nbrc bulletin say the Clarlie Stack winning kit was make up with 13 jac and bake {carter] 4 south carolina [turner] 2 reed that 19 leaving only room for ONE HORNER. LOL
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until next time.
THANKS,
WALTER PORCH
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 5:13 PM
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cballlofts
21 posts
Jan 18, 2009
6:07 PM
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Sounds like one of the rumors that were going around made it to print. Like I said, Charlie told Me and the Triad Guys what I posted before. Probably never know.
Chuck
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 6:08 PM
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macsrollers
8 posts
Jan 18, 2009
9:14 PM
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I've only been on this site a few weeks now but I see, as on every other site, the big debate about color birds not being Birmingham Rollers. Some even call them mongrels. Some say color birds are not pure bred so they aren't Birmingham Rollers. But when it comes down to it the Birminghams were crosses of different breeds of pigeons to creat the roll. I have seen Andulisians, Opals, and Almonds that can roll with the best of them, including my top quality Ouellette blood. What it really comes down to is the only pure bred pigeon breed is the original wild rock dove or pigeon! Whatever you want to call your rollers all that really matters is what please you in your loft and in the air. Don't get me wrong, my start in rollers was thru Doug and Don Ouellette and they are as hard core Birmingham roller breeders as they come, especially Doug. Anyway, my 2 cents worth and enjoy whatever color or bloodline that makes you smile and enjoy this wonderful hobby!
Sincerely, Don M. Macs Rollers
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spinningdemon
196 posts
Jan 19, 2009
5:40 AM
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AMEN!!!! Don.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
96 posts
Jan 19, 2009
11:33 AM
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Don
You said .."I have seen Andulisians, Opals, and Almonds that can roll with the best of them."
Have you seen a kit of twenty Andulisians, Opals or Almonds that have won a major fly...?
I like Almonds and have them around but can't say that... they roll with the best of them..if they did both you I would be flying a kit of twenty Almonds in this springs World Cup...that is not going to happen and have a kit that is going to place well.
The feather merchants are alive and on the prawl in this hobby..who would want to buy a blue check, red check when you can get a pink , orange or green from.. a feather merchant that they claim is just as good.
Bwinward
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nicksiders
3220 posts
Jan 19, 2009
11:52 AM
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Almond may have always been present in the Birmingham Roller. Andulisian and the opel were bred into the Birmingham Roller after it was declared a set and specific breed of domestic pigeon.
I have known a breeder or two that added almond to thier family by crossing the Oriental Roller into thier family of Birmingham Rollers in very recent years; many of them even carried thier wings under the tail. Are they still Bermingham Rollers? I think not, but hey I don't know shit. You will believe what you will and I probably will not say anything to the contrary. You are what you confess to be and your birds are what you confess them to be as well.
I tire from the aurgument that the Birmingham Roller was created from several other breeds. All breeds of domestic pigeons were created from other breeds and sometimes several. That being said does not give a breeder license to continue to cross breed into them and still call them Birmingham Rollers. Crossing other breeds into any establish breed should be taboo and openly discouraged. Most of us have given up and say nothing to discourage this practice and make no audible critisism. The breeder always wins the auguement by declaring he pays the feed bill and he will do whatever he pleases with his birds. End of arguement.
I would like to think I have Birmingham Rollers and not just Rollers, but do I?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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spinningdemon
198 posts
Jan 19, 2009
12:09 PM
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Brad, I have seen your almonds they are awesome pigeons tell me why you feel that a person could not raise a kit of them? I know you could with the breeding skills and top quaility birds you have I know there is no reason that they could not be worked into a nice kit.
I saw at Paul Bradfords home a nice kit that had yellows almonds opals etc. so I know a kit could be created again.I have seen opals at Norm Drecksels home that are fast as can be and deeeeeeep. Todd Jenson has some reduced birds that are no less then 20' his birds could use some help on speed but kitting and depth are there. I have not seen an andulisian spin worth a crap but have had folks tell me they have or have them.
It is all in what a person decides to raise. But being new to comp rollers I am still trying to learn the ups and downs.
Feather merchants boy I got burned bad when I decided that I wanted to try comp birds. I bought "Pure Pensoms" had them shipped payed a lot of money and they were the biggest piece of crap I have ever flown. I am not downing Pensom birds at all. I am just stating that the guys selling a name are at times bigger rips.
I think Dons biggest point really is let folks raise what they want no one should tell another person what they can or can not raise.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
97 posts
Jan 19, 2009
1:37 PM
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David
You probably have saw some good rolling Almonds at my loft they roll like a champion for 7 to 9 months then they start coming out of the air by eithier rolling down or willn't fly in kit.
I consider a... good roller... a bird that you can look in your kit box two three years down the road and still have...two or three years later...not a bird that rolled good one day or for a moment in time.
Very few Almonds make it passed the first year at my place...
David ..Don stated..."I have seen Andulisians, Opals, and Almonds that can roll with the best of them, including my top quality Ouellette blood..... He may want to see if Don Ouellette agrees with him on that statement ..I think Don Ouellette raise some almonds himself...if they can roll with the best of them Ouellette would fly twenty of them for the world cup this spring...it not going to happen.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2009 2:14 PM
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Scott
1468 posts
Jan 19, 2009
2:05 PM
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The Oullette Almonds came from an Orientle cross,Don told me that you had to breed many to get a good one once in a while and quit fooling with them some time back,this was 4-5 years ago.
(He may want to see if Don Ouellette agrees with him on statement ..I think Don Ouellette raise some almonds himself...if they can roll with the best of them Ouellette would fly twenty of them for the world cup this spring...it not going to happen.
bwinward 0
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2009 2:13 PM
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spinningdemon
199 posts
Jan 19, 2009
5:47 PM
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Brad, I always wondered about your almonds now I know. I guess that the work involved to selectivly breed for the almonds to be more stable would be quit hard. I know it is very tough just to get a black to meet your criteria.
I had a family of birds when I lived in South Jordan mostly blue and black check birds with a few red checks that was the same way rolled like champs for the first 7-10 months then they went bad just like you described in your almonds.
The funny thing is that people working with that family of rollers win lots of fly's.
I am with you though give me a bird that starts at about 8 months and lasts till you pull it for stock 2-3 yrs later, but that is what the fireball guys claim is it not?
I am still deciding on wich family I have will be my comp family right now I know that I have to many to really get it going so this year is the year that I raise a crap load of babies and fly the crud out of them and decide witch to go with.
Last years birds I found that the birds from Bryan (John Jones )were showing some good speed and depth.
A red grizzle from Bryan is a super nice bird of the 30 or so I had it shines far above the rest.
The Hilton birds from J.P. were real deep and had some speed also.I raised 6 and I am keeping 3 all females.
Blake gave me a kit when his friend died they ended up being some real fine birds as well.
The birds from Rod ( Starley)are on eggs now so I will be able to see from there also.
Turner birds from David Straight these were a gift and I have not flown any yet still trap training them.
Fireballs, I am told that these birds are to deep and would not have a chance in a comp. But if we give points for depth and quailty if they are fast would they not score well?
So see I need to pick one and just go for it. Each one have their good points and bad. But I tell you what color has no bearing on it. I know I will not have a comp kit by world cup but I will by FF and that will be my first ever comp.
I still have to build better kit box's etc but I am excited about this years breeding.
Thank you for your comments,
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
99 posts
Jan 19, 2009
10:45 PM
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David
You said "But I tell you what color has no bearing on it"
You were going to fly... last fall.. now you are not going to fly in the spring..You want to start this fall.
Look at the list of birds you must have...
If color has no bearing ...you have time.. breed a kit of yellows or almonds and fly them one year from now.
Bwinward
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Ty Coleman
515 posts
Jan 20, 2009
4:16 AM
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Just because you have trouble with one color of birds or family of birds does not mean the entire family or all the birds of one color are junk. It means you had trouble. For every one person who has trouble I am sure there is one who had great birds.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
516 posts
Jan 20, 2009
4:25 AM
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Ty, you don't breed for it, that is what he breed does,personaly I enjoy fielding my birds against the best of the country and the world,but thats just me , good luck what ever you do!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott, I have not seen it written that this is the only way to breed rollers, they can be bred many way's and there is nothing to say twenty have to roll at one time. That is just were the rules of the NBRC have taken your breeding to. The 11 bird fly means just as much to me as your 20 bird fly. Just because you don't like the 11 gives you or no others the wright to discredit it. Like the post on other list, the sissy fly or fly with the big boy's. Man I left grade school many years ago.Some need to grow up a little.
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 4:27 AM
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Scott
1470 posts
Jan 20, 2009
5:39 AM
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Ty, if your birds aren't breaking together it is due to a reason,and it probaby goes back to instability,or very possibly just youngbird fast trigger stuff which again is a form or instability but normal, but don't fool yourself there is a reason for it, you just don't understand it.
You can stroke yourself all you want about the 11 bird fly,but the big boys don't play in that sandbox,that is just a fact.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 5:56 AM
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spinningdemon
202 posts
Jan 20, 2009
6:52 AM
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Brad, thats the plan to fly this fall not next spring I want to put up a kit of young birds in the FF
I lost most of all my birds from last spring due to the kid I hired to feed my birds when I went on vacation did not. I lost 30+ birds most of them stock birds. I was not able to put up a kit. ( I thought you knew that though ) Any way I would love to put up a kit of something and I dont care what color I have if they fly and spin and make me smile thats all I need and if I score a bunch of points or not I will still be having fun. I cant remeber if I mentioned that this is a hobby and hobby equals fun for me.
I only have one almond I do have a few yellow mottles so I will breed a bunch and see what happens. I am not a master breeder by any means but I am up to a good challange.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Ballrollers
1651 posts
Jan 20, 2009
8:08 AM
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Scott,
Ty's birds ARE breaking together. During the 11-bird, he has many 6-8 bird breaks. They are young birds also, to which he is adding some 08 birds to develope a 20-bird kit, but that will require flying time together before they develope good synchronous performance.
I am sure you are aware that there is talk of separating the 11 from the 20. If a National 11 bird fly was flown separate from the 20 do you think there might be a better response from the West coast (BIG BOY) flyers? I have often heard that most flyers just want to compete, no matter what the rules or fly flown. I have a feeling that "kit sensitivity" has more to do with unison performance than we know. But I see that the more you breed for a certain trait, the more you should see the results in the air. Historically, the early English roller flyers were not interested in unison performance as in other types of aerial performance. It was something that evolved as the fancy grew, as Ty alluded to. The unison performance is a wonderful thing to watch but the single deep performer has its place in our club also. It is a choice our members enjoy. I think it is good you have the right to your opinion but give others who do not share your opinion that same courtesy.
Cliff
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Scott
1475 posts
Jan 20, 2009
8:44 AM
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Cliff you are right,if the 11 bird fly was flown different I would also fly it,make no mistake,if the 11 bird fly is seperated out it will be 20 bird flyers dominating it.
As for a place for the deep ones,hog wash buddy, if they don't have the mental strength to zing back to the kit like shot out of a slingshot the quality isn't there anyway and such birds won't score as Ty found out in the finals but couldn't understand.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 8:46 AM
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Ballrollers
1652 posts
Jan 20, 2009
9:42 AM
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Scott,
I think we have room to disagree about the definition of "returning to the kit" and the time it takes a 40-60 foot bird to do it, especially if the kit is not setting up for breaks. It just takes time for a deep bird to catch up. A bird that does not return to kit in timely manor will not score many points and a deep bird that does not return to the kit at all, will often cost more points than it scores on its first spin. Hog wash? Another term that brings to mind something unpleasant. I am sorry but I disagree with your reasoning that the 11 bird fly is just a mini twenty. The 11 bird fly was intended for different performance standards than the 20, in terms of depth and quality...But You are right. The current rules may very well allow "the 20 bird flyers" to dominate the 11. Time will tell, though the statement is sorta irrelevant. What's a 20-bird flyer anyway? Around here we all fly one of each, as do some of the other regions. So do we qualify as a "20-bird flyer"? LOL! Or are you saying that the West Coast flyers, who fly mostly 20-bird kits, will dominate?
Anyway, I bet Ty does better as he matures in the hobby. I bet you did not hit the ground in your first fly with all the maturity and wisdom, you have today, either.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 9:44 AM
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winwardrollers
100 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:17 AM
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Scott
For sure..For sure
"Cliff you are right,if the 11 bird fly was flown different I would also fly it,make no mistake,if the 11 bird fly is seperated out it will be 20 bird flyers dominating it."
Bwinward
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winwardrollers
102 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:24 AM
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Cliff
We don't even fly the 11 bird competition in our area any more..did for a year or two then became disinterested. The guys want to spend their money on a best of the two flies.
bwinward
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Scott
1476 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:35 AM
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( and the time it takes a 40-60 foot bird to do it, especially if the kit is not setting up for breaks.)
Such a bird is controlled by the roll(stability) and will either get a handle on it and break with the team or just fall apart,one or the other,but won't stay where it's at.
I have had 40-60 fters that had absolutly no problem
with the kit,of course these good ones are harder to come by,still not a reason to excuse out a mentaly weak bird.
(Or are you saying that the West Coast flyers, who fly mostly 20-bird kits, will dominate? )
The bulk of the country and the world flys 20 bird teams,it is the standard, only small pockets of the US don't,all of this is pretty obvious since there were only 13 eleven bird finalist verses 43 twenty bird finalists,and the bulk of the 13 eleven bird finalist came out of regions that mainly fly the 20 bird.
if a bird isn't good enough to score in the 11 bird it should not be scored in the 20 bird either,but you allready know where I stand on judging.
(Anyway, I bet Ty does better as he matures in the hobby. I bet you did not hit the ground in your first fly with all the maturity and wisdom, you have today, either.)
I absolutly agree,not only do we grow but our eye becomes much more sharper and critical on the birds,at least it should.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 10:39 AM
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maxspin
338 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:38 AM
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Cliff,
Do the math. Most 20 bird comp fliers goal is a kit of birds that break once per minute 20 ft rollers.
Lets say that they were on the short side and none went over 20.
11 birds x 20 minutes = score of 220
Now if half of the birds roll over 20 feet
6 birds x 20 minutes ten to twenty feet = 120
5 birds x 20 minutes = over 20 feet = 200
Total = 320
The scores that are dominating the 20 birds flies are breaking every 30 seconds
11 birds x ( 2 x 20 minutes) = 400
Yes,
I would say that the BIG boys from the 20 birds comp. would also dominate the 11 bird fly regardless of coast country or family of birds.
Keith Maxwell
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Ballrollers
1653 posts
Jan 20, 2009
11:59 AM
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Scott,
I don't know how many 11 bird contests you have flown in, and I don't know how many 11 bird teams you have personally flown in your back yard, but you certainly seem to think you know all about the 11 bird fly. I would submit to you that some 11 bird men do not breed their birds for the same characteristics as the 20 bird men. To make a wide sweeping statement that a bird must be unstable since it does not break as a team, when we are discussing an 11 bird team, may be untrue. Some, NOT ALL; BUT SOME, couldn't care less if their 11 kits breaks as a team, they actually prefer birds that waterfall so that each individual performance can be visually enjoyed and appreciated without the distraction of other birds rolling at the same time. And I do not believe that is a function of instablitiy; kit sensitivity, yes...insability, no. So it can be bred toward or away from depending on one's preference. This may come as a surprise to you, but all the men and women that fly rollers do not walk in lockstep with your idea of what family to fly.....what constitues an unstable bird....or what color a Birmingham Roller can be. If the WC would offer a different venue or if all regions offered both types of contests, we might see a change in tastes. If you lived in an area where the standard was the 11, why would you think the 20 is the standard? Many regions in the East are enjoying both the 11 and the 20, along with some regions in the Midwest. If the West coast was not included in the calculation of total numbers of 20 bird kits vs 11 bird kits; for the rest of the USA, the differences would not be so one sided. So the rest of the country, with the exception of the West coast, has embraced the positive aspects of the 11-bird fly. The sheer flyer density in California throws off the averages nationwide. Hehehehe..Do the math.....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1654 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:05 PM
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Keith,
I agree, the frequency of a good 20 bird team will beat out a higher quality deeper 11 bird kit most of the time, if that was your point. The way the rules now read, I see the mini twenty being dominated by the same birds that win in the twenty bird fly. The good thing is, if we separate the 11 from the 20, we could have another competition to fly. And if the 11-bird rules are modified to represent what was truly intended originally....for example a 30 foot minimum depth, significant points for quality deeper birds rather than turn scoring, etc. then you would begin to see the champion individual performers begin to assert themselves in competition. But the way things stand right now......you are correct.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 12:06 PM
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Scott
1479 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:09 PM
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As I stated,there is a reason why they roll on thier own and or waterfall,sure is easier to breed such birds though,it just the nature of the breed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 12:11 PM
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Scott
1480 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:13 PM
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Buddy you can try and excuse it out all you want but the fact is there was only 13 eleven bird finalists verses 42 twenty bird finalists,any way you shake it under the current conditions the 20 bird carrys a side fly (11 bird) with little interest.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 12:14 PM
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Ballrollers
1655 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:42 PM
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Scott,
So it's easier to breed 50ft+ birds with stability, speed and quality??!! I gotta call BS on you, buddy.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 12:50 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
140 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:46 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I think the reason Mayo started this thread is that he has probably been accused of color breeding or raising mutt's like many here have. By using a breeder with the stature of Turner as an example, and a question of what to call these birds was right on. Who here has the credibility to be able to take anything away from Turner? The answer is no one....
I think I am going to name my loft "Up North Mutt's"...I think it has a nice ring to it...
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Ballrollers
1656 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:48 PM
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Bwinward,
"Color has no bearing on performance" but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low. I think Scott has already addressed that even with his excellent stud of birds, it takes 2-3 years to field 20 birds that he would willing to compete with. If I asked you to put up 20 birds that were all blue check, bald, "V" tail and W/F ... THAT WERE GOOD SPINNERS, it may be a hard task to accomplish in a single year, right? The old Bald-head roller clubs had the same problem.....too much emphasis on color rather than performance. The exact mathematical logic holds true with any factor/pattern you choose. If you have rare factors carried in the Rollers you choose to breed, the odds of getting good performance birds depends of how well you handle your birds.......... NOT WHAT COLOR THEY ARE. The Roller fancy, particularly the competition rollers, offer the roller enthusiast many choices of colors, pattern and factors. The more involved the factors become, the lower the odds that a good performance roller in that factor. Hence, I breed for performance only and the colors just come along for the ride.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 12:49 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2347 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:52 PM
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Easy there Mike that name might bring out some prejudice
in competiton judges..keep those Mutts hiding behind close doors till release time..cause what really counts its whats above..
----------Ralph
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Scott
1482 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:55 PM
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(Scott,
So it's easier to breed 50ft+ birds with stability, speed and quality??!! I gotta call BS on you, buddy.
Cliff )
No I said it's easier to breed birds with control issues that roll whenever.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1657 posts
Jan 20, 2009
1:18 PM
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Now that makes more sense.....I can agree with that statement, but it is irrelevant to the 11-bird competition......at least the 11-bird comps that I participate in.
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
142 posts
Jan 20, 2009
1:19 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Ralph,
I dont have that many "colored birds" really. about a dozen yellows, some indigo, two andalusions, and a couple I have no idea what color they are. The two andalusions wont be for sae anytime soon. I do have quite a few with feathered feet. (The Cock birds sure seem to like them pretty yellow hens with the boots running up their legs though..LOL)
I have read here and there about dilutes being weeker than the dark birds..I have kit birds of all the colors outside and lost five birds to the weather this year. There was one yellow dilute, two red checks,one red check white side, and one dark check with white flights...
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Scott
1483 posts
Jan 20, 2009
1:25 PM
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(I think Scott has already addressed that even with his excellent stud of birds, it takes 2-3 years to field 20 birds that he would willing to compete with.)
Not that I would compete with Cliff,as I've flown scrub kits to just support,but it does take me 2-3 years without a major loss to field a team that gives me a woody.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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spinningdemon
214 posts
Jan 20, 2009
2:01 PM
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Cliff,
Thanks for you comments. I have a close friend that flies baldheads exclusivly. I have seen super fast birds in his in all colors. He has spent a lifetime of development.
Cliff wrote, The exact mathematical logic holds true with any factor/pattern you choose. If you have rare factors carried in the Rollers you choose to breed, the odds of getting good performance birds depends of how well you handle your birds.
Thanks again Cliff.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
103 posts
Jan 20, 2009
5:43 PM
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David
You must be talking about Norm Drecksel that has baldheads..I would agree that he has beautiful birds that roll fast...but do you see anyone flying a kit of his birds in the World Cup?...there is a reason...they don't last...I think the differance in our thinking is you are thinking... county fair and I'm think... world cup standards...your thinking hobby ..and I'm thinking sport....Norms Drecksel focus on color and has done a great job with it.
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winwardrollers
104 posts
Jan 20, 2009
6:02 PM
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Cliff
You stated that..."Color has no bearing on performance but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low.
"but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low."
but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low."
but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low."
That is what I'm talking about... Cliff
bwinward
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winwardrollers
105 posts
Jan 22, 2009
7:37 AM
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Cliff
explain....."Color has no bearing on performance but the odds of getting good birds of any color, factor or pattern is rather low."
bwinward
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Scott
1488 posts
Jan 22, 2009
7:57 AM
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Brad, actualy the color should really tighted up in one's loft as times goes by, unless you are just breeding out of many birds that are all over the board and not honing in and around your best.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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maxspin
340 posts
Jan 22, 2009
8:46 AM
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Scott,
That is worth repeating….
Color should tighten up in one's loft as time goes by. You should be honing around your best birds.
I need to print that and put it on the loft wall.
Keith
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Ballrollers
1659 posts
Jan 22, 2009
10:52 AM
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Keith, Scott,
What I meant by "The odds of getting good birds of any color, factor, or pattern is rather low", is, as we have already discussed, the national average is somewhere around the fact that for every 10 birds raised 1 should be a top quality roller; for every 50-100 good rollers one or two may be stock quality. Men who have been tightening up their gene pool, will naturally have fewer and fewer color/patern combinations, as Scott has stated. It tightens up. The natural progression of roller breeding will revolve around a few key birds, mining that vein of gold......the fewer you breed from the fewer the color modifiers but the higher the percentage of good birds....hopefully. You can only expect the colors/pattern/factors found in your key birds to be found in your kit boxes. If you start with grizzles, sooner or later, torts and stork pattern whites will predominate your kit boxes. If you have mostly birds with spread, you will have mostly blacks and lavenders. But even with these few modifiers you will still have only a few really good rollers; hopefully better than the average. As the years go by the color factor modifiers should become more the same with fewer differences. In my loft, the indigo and andalusian selfs are becoming more dominant as I follow the roll. My comp kit consists of 14 andalusian selfs off a few key consistant pairs. The rest are blacks off of these same pairs; and two reds that were just lucky hits off a couple low percentage pairs....no grizzles...no dilutes.....no reduced...no opals....no almonds. In somebody else's loft of a different line of birds the Indigo and Andalusians may suck....and the same goes for any other color or pattern. In 30 years, all my birds may be black or blue checks or lavenders or indigo or some combination of these with a few bars tossed in. Time will tell. But still the color iteslef has no bearing on performance. It just depends on the colors and modifiers found in those key pairs that we start with. There may be general trends within a family...asssociations between color and roll, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it. And I definitely would not make general assumptions about the relationship between color and roll based on your personal experience for your family, but especially for any other family. A lot of roller men in the past have committed this gross error in judgement.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 10:59 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
149 posts
Jan 22, 2009
10:59 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Cliff,
It could not have been put any better than that..Great post!
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Scott
1490 posts
Jan 22, 2009
11:12 AM
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(And I definitely would not make general assumptions about the relationship between color and roll based on your personal experience for your family, but especially for any other family)
Cliff,you are a 100 0/0 correct, and it's easy to do !
I think that many of the old wives tales are from what was seen in someones loft as a consistany,and then was passed down and used accross the board where the breed was concerned, a good example is hard and soft colors,where weakness and strengths do piggyback to some degree,but it isn't completly across the board.
Still many believe not to breed hard color to hard color or soft color to soft color, in reality it all evolves around the charcator of the bird and balancing such with the matings.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 11:19 AM
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Scott
1491 posts
Jan 22, 2009
11:17 AM
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( But still the color iteslef has no bearing on performance.)
It most definetly does play in to some degree, but I think that it is too complicated to fully understand and that there are many mental and physical traits that piggyback color or factors.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
107 posts
Jan 22, 2009
12:19 PM
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Cliff stated.."I breed for performance only and the colors just come along for the ride."
Most of my kits were Lavenders a few years ago and now 3/4 plus of the birds now are black. The spread gene/factor has taken over. One of my best matings is black on black.
bwinward
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Ballrollers
1660 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:22 PM
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Bwinward,
You said...it depends.....Well, almost everything depends on something. Grin! Would you rather pick a good roller from the air, or by its color? Would you rather pick a good roller from its perch or from the air? Does it depend more on their performance in the air, more on their looks, or more on their color? The only thing I can find to be 100% true when it comes to Rollers is......well, nothing concerning rollers in 100% true because it all depends! Smile:) If I am evaluating a roller, I start with performance but I also look at many other things.....but the last thing I look at is the color....even though I do have some purty ones! Smile.
Cliff
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