Ballrollers
1661 posts
Jan 22, 2009
1:31 PM
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More good points you made, Scott. The propogation of these fallacies has not been limited only to color, but to other closely-associated factors. The relationships are hard to nail down...and again, they may be limited to one's particular experience with his own sub-strain or sub-family of rollers. Certainly there are a few characteristics in rollers that appear to be consistant within a family, or even to cross family lines, but we have to be very careful making those quantum leaps to unjustifiable conclusions.I hate to admit it, but some colors, as well as patterns, (IN SOME FAMILIES), DO SEEM to influence how well the performance will manifest itself. But if we try to prove it, most will fail if we do not use performance as the number one indicator. The only thing I believe is what my eyes tell me.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 1:34 PM
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fhtfire
1773 posts
Jan 22, 2009
4:54 PM
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Cliff...is chuck your brother.....I think I made fun of him on Earls thinking it was you...tell him sorry...LOL
Man...I am off for a couple days and I miss all this fun....damn....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1774 posts
Jan 22, 2009
5:15 PM
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Cliff,
Did somebody clunk you on the head.....you are almost talking like a purist....LOL>>>LOL>>> You are repeating what most of us has been saying all along...ALWAYS pick birds based on performance first..and then look at the character of the bird....then the feel and look of the bird on the perch....to be honest...myself...I am totally color blind when it comes to pulling birds for stock...I also do not mate based on color balancing....I also do not mate based on ancestory....unless it is Father daughter.....or brother sister...I dont mate that close....that is just me....I have better success with cousins (kissing).....Aunts and Uncles......or Grandpartents.....but I have found like you pointed out..nothing is 100% and alot is based on Wives tales or just plain somebody heard it once and preach as gospel....To be honest... alot is gut feeling....and luck...LOL
One thing that I do when picking stock is that I never look at the band number until I have made my decision on what bird I want to mate to what....and then I look at the band number....I never want ancestory to influence my decision on pulling for stock or pairing....the only time I will change my decision is if they end up being brother sister or father daugter or Mother son...then I will switch..I have had NO luck with those matings...so that goes to show you it is from loft to loft...and there are many ways to skin a cat.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Good info guy...and cliff put a bandage on your head.
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winwardrollers
108 posts
Jan 22, 2009
7:57 PM
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Cliff.. good luck with your andalusian family of birds
I didn't realize your family consisted of so many...14 andalusian in a kit.
By.. the.. way.. way to skirt around answering my question directly..Scott's 1491 post is a keeper.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 9:17 PM
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Scott
1496 posts
Jan 22, 2009
8:08 PM
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Brad, I think that would be a base that would scare me,it will be interesting if it's one that can stand the test of time without constant out crosses.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 8:10 PM
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Scott
1497 posts
Jan 22, 2009
8:31 PM
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It is, but don't hold it against me .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
66 posts
Jan 22, 2009
8:49 PM
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Nice .. I have been reading alot and hearing so much about you would like to meet you . Beaver Dayton gave me a start in his line and said you are a good Roller Man ! I didn't no that I have been reading and agreeing with you on your post . My name is Larry and i am new to the club N.C.R.C. and plan on being in it for a long time ..Sorry for changing this post but i would like to know more about how you train birds in Cali.
Nice to meet you not formally but never the less .. hopefully i can meet you at our club fly.
P.S. sorry for the (BUMP) on this post
STUDENT 2 THE GAME
N.C.R.C.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2009 8:50 PM
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Ty Coleman
519 posts
Jan 23, 2009
3:53 AM
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Brad, I think that would be a base that would scare me,it will be interesting if it's one that can stand the test of time without constant out crosses.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Scott, What crosses have to constantly have to be taken back to the original outcross ? I like the genetics aspect of the hobby and I see you post this comment alot so I would like to learn what gene you keep refering to. All of the genes I know of are dominant and dont fade out as you say they do , but if you know one that will please state your findings.I am always eager to learn.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1499 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:29 AM
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Ty,that so called "genetic" side of the hobby will be a chain and ball around your neck where the breed is concerned,thats a shame.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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J_Star
1846 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:52 AM
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The rollong gene will fade out if not harnest correctly...that's for sure.
Jay
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winwardrollers
109 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:04 AM
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scott.. I miss type the post it should read post 1941
Brad
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winwardrollers
110 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:21 AM
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Ty
You stated..."All of the genes I know of are dominant and dont fade out as you say they do , but if you know one that will please state your findings.I am always eager to learn."
There are ressive genes..and some think the roll is connected to a ressive..I'm not a fan of that.
bwinward
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
224 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:41 AM
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Both Hollander and Quinn assigned the propensity to roll the genetic symbol "ro". The lower case to signify that it a recessive trait. Isn't amazing that the trait we covet the most in these birds is recessive?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1502 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:50 AM
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I don't think that it is that easy by any means Joe, if it was flying good birds would be just too easy,and would be as easy as breeding R/R,I think that there a multiple of things that play in ,and for every effect there is another effect.
They need to stick to color genetics,if they had it dieled in they would be flying great pigions,but they don't.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:56 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
225 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:57 AM
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Scott, I don't disagree with you that it isn't that easy. But being a recessive gene, it doen't take much to breed away from it and destroy the roll or at best retard it. Their game went way beyond just colors.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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J_Star
1848 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:03 AM
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Joe, you are making a general statement with your last sentance...Have you seen their birds? I would love to have some of Cliff's andalusions. Brian McCormek (Black Elvis) family was made from andalusions and the likes and he flyes some awsom birds I was told.
Jay
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
226 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:10 AM
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Jay,
I wasn't talking about Cliff or Brian. I was talking about Quinn and Hollander. I thought that was who Scott was referring.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
227 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:13 AM
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Jay,
I've got some Andys and Indigo bars that can wrap it up also, so I'mcertainly not dissing the color.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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J_Star
1850 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:15 AM
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Thanks Joe for clearing it up. I missunderstood your post. Thanks.
Jay
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Ballrollers
1662 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:44 AM
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Paul,
I have been saying the same thing all along. Some of you guys just persist in believing that a man competing with a family of rollers with color modifiers, must be a color breeder. WRONG! I think the message may finally be getting through, though...... Yes, Chuck is my brother. He breeds and flys, Horner Jaconettes.
Jay,
You are correct about that, and it would make no difference if all your birds were a certain standard color or if we were discussing my birds. The fact remains, if we don't put performance first, the "RO GENE" will fade with each passing generation. There are a few breeders who understand how to breed for colors and retain the performance...... VERY FEW! And I don't count myself in with that group. I have my hands full just trying to follow the roll. Turner was and is a Master at it.
Scott,
As a matter of fact I have been gradually culling out Joe Bob's and Jay's family crosses (Jay has a line of Henry Cook Crosses). They are lower in percentages and all my good stuff is coming from the pure Turner lines. So my plan is to stick with what is working for me.
Bwinward,
I have two kits of '08 Indigo and Andalusians (and blacks) that I will be selecting from as well for my competition kits....
Cliff
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 9:39 AM
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Ballrollers
1663 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:35 AM
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Scott,
I would compare your statement, to when WHP voiced his concerns over his opinion that competition would harm the performance characteristics he wanted preserved. It is your opinion that something is going to be a ball and chain, if we try to understand the genetic side of the birds. I enjoy the study of genetics but it does not change what I see in the air or what I bred for. It is just another interesting part of my rollers. Pedigrees don't make a roller roll, colors don't make a roller. The "RO GENE(s)" makes the Roller roll. Why wouldn't we be interested in the study of genetics?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 11:40 AM
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wishiwon2
128 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:56 AM
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Hollander and Quinn assigned the propensity to roll the genetic symbol "ro".
It is my belief that there are multiple genes that influence rolling behavior. Some genes work simply as modifiers for other genes, thus making it more complicated to identify. If it were simply 1 gene,recessive or dominant, it would be a simple task of identifying and selecting for it. We all know THAT isnt the case.
"there are many mental and physical traits that piggyback color or factors."
Scott made an excelent point here. Due to the complexity of the genetic influences that control rolling, I suspect some are scattered around at different loci and perhaps even different chromosomes. This doesnt mean that there is a color cause and effect relationship.
--- -------
Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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Scott
1505 posts
Jan 23, 2009
1:23 PM
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(Pedigrees don't make a roller roll, colors don't make a roller. The "RO GENE(s)" makes the Roller roll. Why wouldn't we be interested in the study of genetics?)
Cliff,pedigrees are the make-up of the bird,but also my culls have the same pedigree as my best.
As for genetics,lets not confuse the issue,we know where pigeons are concerned so called gentetics evolves around color.
We can talk about the so-called genetics and ro gene until we are blue in the face,but it still won't help anyone breed better Rollers,in fact it is just the opposite.
If you want to talk about what is important talk about the physical and mental aspect of the breed,the only thing important to breeding better birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 1:25 PM
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Ballrollers
1664 posts
Jan 23, 2009
1:41 PM
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Scott,
"Cliff,pedigrees are the make-up of the bird,but also my culls have the same pedigree as my best."
I presume you are agreeing with me that pedigrees don't make the roller roll, and a cull is a cull, even one with a pedigree. It breaks my heart sometimes, cause I will swear that a certain pedigree has got to produce. But it's best not to even know the the pedigree when evalutating the bird in the air so it doesn't jade one's evaluation of performance.
Genetics includes the study of all inherited characteristcs....color, roll, physical, and mental aspects of the breed. Those men who have a handle on the inheritance of those aspects of breeding are able to breed better rollers. Turner is a prime example. He has the best handle on these aspects of genetics of any roller man I know today.
So when you said to Ty, "that so called "genetic" side of the hobby will be a chain and ball around your neck where the breed is concerned", I have to strongly disagree. Of course, I suspect that what you really meant is that the genetics of the inheritance of color genes and modifiers might be the perverbial ball and chain around one's neck. But it's certainly not the knowledge of this type of genetics that is the problem. It's how we choose to use that knowledge that could interfere with the breeding of performance...but not necessarily so, depending on the knowledge, experience and committment to performance above color. We have to be carful of such broad sweeping statements that don't really say what we mean to say. It creates a great deal of confusion.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 1:49 PM
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spinningdemon
217 posts
Jan 23, 2009
2:06 PM
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Brad,
You are right I am in it for a hobby I have no interest in selling a bunch of birds or winning a bunch of trophies my goal with my birds is to breed them to the performance standard as best I can.And have a bunch of fun doing it. I will take the county fair comment as a complement as that is where I first learned about rollers some 35 years ago from such great breeders as Paul Bradford, Norm Drecksel and John Fife sr. The county fair is not a bad thing. I have as you know just started with my comp birds mostly to meet and talk rollers with the guys and gals. Still a newbie for this aspect of the hobby.
I was wondering with people being into the sport of this little bird why does one care if the bird falls apart after a year or 18 months ? They have already won a ribbon so if they break down after a bit, it is really not a concern, or is it and why? Also are their no one flying kits of almonds because no one wants to take the time to develop a family? or is because someone will fault that breeder and make them feel like crap? Or are their piggy back genetics that cause an almond to be weak? and where are the genetic studies to prove it?
Brad these are just questions because I am still learning I am not debating.
Scott,
To be a breeder of any animal with a goal of improving you must study genetics including all aspects of that particular animal we need to understand what makes them tick or not tick. It is true with pigeons color is the most talked about as far as genetics but by far not the only inherited factor.
By keeping records of what produced spin, mental quailities, frequency etc you are actually studing genitics. And its a lot fun to.
Cliff,
Thanks for your comments, I was wondering how long you have been working on the andulsian color, I have heard a lot of good about your project and would love a bit more info.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1506 posts
Jan 23, 2009
2:14 PM
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It is a ball and chain and nothing more,barn thumping lawn darts are easy to produce,theres the handle on the ro gene for you that some have LOL.
Genetics is about color and nothing else it plays no part what so-ever in breeding better pigeons,now you are trying to muddy the water and impress the inexperianced flyers with bullshit, but hey, it sounds impressive LOL.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 4:01 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
229 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:32 PM
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Scott,
That last post is pretty outrageous, even for you.LMAO
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1507 posts
Jan 23, 2009
4:35 PM
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Scott,
That is interesting Cliff,they crossed trying to hold them together, I surely hope what you consider "good ones" are more than just a flash in the pan and aren't just giving you a false indication of higher percentage, good luck !
Scott
(As a matter of fact I have been gradually culling out Joe Bob's and Jay's family crosses (Jay has a line of Henry Cook Crosses). They are lower in percentages and all my good stuff is coming from the pure Turner lines. So my plan is to stick with what is working for me.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 4:37 PM
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Ty Coleman
520 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:20 PM
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That is interesting Cliff,they crossed trying to hold them together, I surely hope what you consider "good ones" are more than just a flash in the pan and aren't just giving you a false indication of higher percentage, good luck !
Scott
(As a matter of fact I have been gradually culling out Joe Bob's and Jay's family crosses (Jay has a line of Henry Cook Crosses). They are lower in percentages and all my good stuff is coming from the pure Turner lines. So my plan is to stick with what is working for me.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Scott, that sure is alot of digging and trying to write between the lines to come up with this statement. Pure Bull from you on that one buddy !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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spinningdemon
218 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:21 PM
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Scott,
Lets see what webster has to say,
Main Entry: ge·net·ics
Pronunciation: \j?-?ne-tiks\
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Date: 1905
1 : a branch of biology that deals with the heredity and variation of organisms
2 : the genetic makeup and phenomena of an organism, type, group, or condition
So genetics deals with all aspects of the organism "Roller Pigeon" not just the color.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1509 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:33 PM
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How do you know that Ty ? you just been around since last year,it is no secret.
(Scott, that sure is alot of digging and trying to write between the lines to come up with this statement. Pure Bull from you on that one buddy !)
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:51 PM
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Scott
1510 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:37 PM
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Sure it does Dave, pick up any pigeons genetics book and tell me what it's about, or better yet get Turners genetics tape were he is mongralizing the breed for color,get back to me with your findings.
(So genetics deals with all aspects of the organism "Roller Pigeon" not just the color.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:38 PM
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Ty Coleman
521 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:52 PM
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Scott,were I was 10 years ago or yesterday makes no difference. The Turners have been bred true without outside birds being brought in longer than I have been in the world. And I asure you they are not falling apart. I don't tell you whats going on in your yard because Ive never stepped foot in it, So don't try to tell me whats going on in mine. I'm there 365 day's a year.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1511 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:15 PM
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Ty, and they crossed why ? I know why , I was told by them why, I don't pull this stuff out of my arse .
My birds are a major pain in the arse keeping down once mature,web toe can also be a major problem,I see no reason to try and keep secrets.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 7:19 PM
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Scott
1512 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:40 PM
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Good luck Cliff !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 7:58 PM
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Ballrollers
1666 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:56 PM
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Not only a priority, but a committment, Scott. Readers who have followed my posts over the years know that accuracy is paramount in my posts. I post every reference I can lay my hands on to substantiate my position on these issues, rather than being content to sit back and disrespect other roller men and their famlies of birds, the way you do. When it comes to exposing your distortions and fabrications about a family of rollers that you have never bred, trained, flown, and only seen flown on a single occaision or two; when you set yourself up as such an expert when you know so little about them....I'll be there to set the record straight. You do yourself and your credibility no honor when you engage in this kind of behavior, but I realize...You just don't give a flip! But then we have been down this road many times before haven't we?
Cliff
PS I see you have deleted some of your inflammatory posts...good move.....and I have never known anyone breeding this family of birds that has EVER produced 60% rolldowns. You must have me confused with someone else. But you will believe what you will. Facts are of so little importance to you when they do not support your agenda.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 8:07 PM
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Scott
1513 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:01 PM
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You have me Cliff, your right, they crossed for fun and I was lied to by them for the reason,and you were just joking about the 60 0/0 lawn darts a few years ago when you were new.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1514 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:04 PM
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Yes I did, but I will say it again , honesty isn't a strong point with you,never has been.
(PS I see you have deleted some of your inflammatory posts...good move.....)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1667 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:15 PM
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No, actually they crossed for a number of good reasons in their quest for the perfect roller, as they have shared with their friends......refinement of wing postition...slower butterfly-action wing beat......more variable depth of spinning.....As Joe Bob always says, "But I always sacrificed something.....I always had to go back to the pure South Carolina (Turner) line to get back to my best speed, depth and quality of spin." Jay's Henry Cook crosses are a side line. Based on his pedigrees that he has shared with me, the majority of his birds are highly inbred directly off James Turner's 007 or Rambo lines, with no other family outcrosses.....And you can take that to the bank.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 8:20 PM
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Scott
1515 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:19 PM
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Your right Cliff, I made it all up, good luck !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 8:29 PM
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Ballrollers
1668 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:26 PM
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Thank you for finally admitting it.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1669 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:28 PM
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" The breeding of pigeons and the scientific study of birds are complementary activities. For some reason it has never been possible for me to separate the study of pigeons , from the breeding of pigeons. Each new discovery or insight adds enjoyment of a personal kind, to my hobby or raising pigeons. Scientists began studying the breeder arts. For the most part, a cooperative relationship existed between the scientists and the breeder....... there was a mutual interest in understanding the mechanisms involved in pigeon heredity."
-Written by Joseph W. Quinn
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 8:28 PM
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Bill C
186 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:40 PM
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Ty, nobody could argue with that. Except 20 bird break is breath taking as aposed to three birds that roll 50 feet and are lose and end in a dishrag roll.
You did say you like the real spinners so I know you do not have any color experiments going on in your neck of the woods! Keep those perfomrace birds performing. Bill C
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spinningdemon
221 posts
Jan 24, 2009
2:12 AM
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Cliff, Thanks again for you comments.
Bill C., You are right no one wants to breed birds that end in loose dishrag. But 50' deep with good style and speed count me in. but a 20 bird break with loose dishrag rolls has no interest to me but a 20 bird break with style and speed count me in. I guess style and speed are what we should be breeding for.
Real spinners are what I want to breed and so does Ty, Cliff, Scott and all the other folks on this thread. So it is simple like Cliff said air first, hand second and perch third.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Ty Coleman
522 posts
Jan 24, 2009
3:20 AM
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Bill, A 50 foot bird that does everything correct is a rare find, but they are out there. I am fortunate to have several also. I also have a twenty bird kit going for the WC. It has 16 08 birds in it so Probably want be to great on the score card. My kit is breaking around 6-10 with a large waterfall behind the breaks. My past 11 bird kit would full turn very often Which I will admit was cool but just isnt my main goal with my birds. I have crossed many breeds for years until I started getting serius about my rollers, I got rid of all of them and bought a pure roller family and started trying to understand the breed. In the process I picked up a bird from the Turner Family, settled it and began flying it with my other family and it was very aparent I was starting with the wrong family. I culled them and went on the quest to get the Turner Family. Many people sell this Family, but very few can tell you how they got them and most can not be tracked back. When you find someone who has them they most likely want be for sale. I have no out cross projects in my Birmingham loft and will not as there is no need for it. Performance is there and there are a few colors along for the ride. I am working on a cross for my Orientals to try and tighten and speed up the roll while keeping the size and character of the bird. I do not sell birds so it doesnt matter with the Orientals to me.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1525 posts
Jan 24, 2009
7:16 AM
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If you are going to be breeding them straight you better figure it out,for now it looks like it went over your head though.
(You propose that understanding the "Physical and Mental aspect" of Rollers is the only thing important to breeding better birds? I don't know, Scott, understanding the mental aspect of a bird? With all the different lines of education open to us, and you want to try to understand the mental aspects of Rollers? OK, I'm game! Please list the texts that discuss how understanding the mental aspects of Rollers will help us raise better rollers. I must have missed these books.LOL! Come to think of it, I have never had an in depth conversation with any of my birds.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 8:33 AM
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Ty Coleman
523 posts
Jan 24, 2009
8:22 AM
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If you are going to be breeding them straight you better figure it out,for now it looks like it is over your head though.
(You propose that understanding the "Physical and Mental aspect" of Rollers is the only thing important to breeding better birds? I don't know, Scott, understanding the mental aspect of a bird? With all the different lines of education open to us, and you want to try to understand the mental aspects of Rollers? OK, I'm game! Please list the texts that discuss how understanding the mental aspects of Rollers will help us raise better rollers. I must have missed these books.LOL! Come to think of it, I have never had an in depth conversation with any of my birds.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Scott. Do you have your family figured out ? are they over your head ? If you bred a cull this past year then you dont have them figured out yet, and of course you would win the WC and Fall Fly every year and everyone would fly your strain and then the roller pigeon would be no more.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
234 posts
Jan 24, 2009
8:28 AM
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This thread started out bad and has gotten progressively worse. It is now nothing more than childish drivel!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1529 posts
Jan 24, 2009
8:38 AM
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Ty, you completly missed the context of the message.
Joe, we reserve that right, what the hell do you expect, we are grown men that play with pigeons LOL
(It is now nothing more than childish drivel!!)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
235 posts
Jan 24, 2009
8:39 AM
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You are right, I lost my head. What was I thinking?lmao
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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