glenn
194 posts
Jan 31, 2009
5:21 PM
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Mr. Coleman:
You may be right about that, just as there was a lot of junk being sold during the so-call Dual-Purpose days. The color breeding thing is just as bad as the Dual purpose thing was in the 70's...Glenn
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Ty Coleman
555 posts
Jan 31, 2009
5:36 PM
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I was not around during the dual purpose day so I cant comment. There has'nt been a color standard written buy anyone in the hobby with any weight so far, only a performance standard. Until we have pigeon police to dictate what I fly, I will fly my color rollers that do meet the performance standard written for the Birmingham roller.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Mayo
92 posts
Jan 31, 2009
5:39 PM
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Glenn, My Pure Jaconettes have been called many things.....Rolldowns, Barn Thumpin Lawn Darts, Junk o Nets LOL , Jerk a Nets,LOL Funk o Nets,LOL Who cares what line of Roller someone has, as long as they are Happy.........So show Me The SuperMan of the Roller World....There is No one...If so, They would be the only (Winner) of all Competions...W/c and FF..............MaYo.. the FireStarter....LMAO!
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Mayo
95 posts
Jan 31, 2009
6:48 PM
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Like I said before.... Show Me the SuperMen of the Roller World....................There are None!...MaYo
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2009 6:49 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
228 posts
Jan 31, 2009
6:48 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
TY and Mayo,
Tony is a business man, I highly doubt he would outlaw the 90% here that have colored "Birmingham Rollers" or the % that have "Crested Birmingham Rollers"...
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Mayo
96 posts
Jan 31, 2009
6:50 PM
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You are so right, Mike....................MaYo
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Ballrollers
1687 posts
Jan 31, 2009
8:33 PM
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Nick, You are wrong about the Tippler crosses. I have provided literature documentation of the tippler crosses into rollers in order to bring in the grizzle factor. It occured around the turn of the century.The only issue is at what point along the developement of the breed does one draw the line and say....from this point on they are "pure" and anything else that is brought in is no longer "pure". The breed has been under development for a century, with new color modifying factors and flying styes being brought in from breed outcrosses at periodic intervals to improve the breed...just as in other breeds of pigeons......and it continues...like it or not. The problem is that not every breed outcross was documented way back....it wasn't a big deal since they were pigeon men who were creating and improving the breed. The question is, is the breed now a static entity, and if so, at what point do we call it so? It's all a moot point, anyway. The points cannot be proved on either side.....The only thing that matters is performance. All the rest is nothing more than chest-pounding, self-righteousness and prejudice.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2009 8:41 PM
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Scott
1622 posts
Jan 31, 2009
9:19 PM
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Where is that documentation of this accross the breed on a whole Cliff ?
The Tipper and Birmingham came out of the same pot to begin with and has a common ancestry,and Grizzle was part of that.
like I said though, where is this documentaion that is was crossed accross the breed for grizzle ? it makes no sence what so-ever.
(with new color modifying factors and flying styes being brought in from breed outcrosses at periodic intervals to improve the breed...just as in other breeds of pigeons......and it continues...like it or not. )
The fact is these so called new color modifying factors "cannot" stand on thier own, now tell us how on earth a non performance cross for color improved the breed ? you gotta be joking
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2009 9:45 PM
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Ty Coleman
556 posts
Feb 01, 2009
4:59 AM
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The fact is these so called new color modifying factors "cannot" stand on thier own.
BS Scott
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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3757
1159 posts
Feb 01, 2009
5:24 AM
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This truly reminds me of two people who have different religions trying to convert the other and it is not going to happen. It is really funny how we know that all pigeons have the same ancestors but when it comes to man we throw it all out the window as racism and prejudice abounds throughout the world! I guess our common great great etc grandfather is turning over in his grave. I bet Bill Pensom and Bill Richards is doing the same thing as the mess never stops. Bill Pensom always advertised (as well Smith) that they bred the true Birmingham roller. Most do not even understand what they were trying to do and it seems as if their efforts went out the window. I think if we are only arguing and no knowledge is gained we should cease. It reminds me of the old dual Purpose debates I remember in the 1970's and it flowed into the early 80's.
Clff - I have information on the grizzles in the Pensom birds that came from Harry Young in the 1800's. All of the Pensom grizzles (those from Smith, etc go back to Bellfields old grizzle cock that was bred by Harry Young.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 6:06 AM
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gotspin7
2224 posts
Feb 01, 2009
6:03 AM
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Laron, I agree 100%! Hey and there you have it....
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Sal Ortiz
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Ballrollers
1689 posts
Feb 01, 2009
7:50 AM
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Let me make a few comparisons here. We all have seen the beer commercials "TASTE'S GREAT" from one side and "LESS FILLING" from the other side. Right? OK let's see if we can expand on that? 100% pure pedigreed BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS are the best? OK, now everyone who agrees with that statement yell "TASTE'S GREAT!". 99% Pure BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS are the best? Now everyone who agrees with that statement yell "LESS FILLING!" EXCELLENT! The color factors carried in a ROLLER determine if the bird can or cannot be identified as a BIRMINGHAM ROLLER? TASTE'S GREAT! The color on a rollers feather determines the performance characteristics? LESS FILLING! A "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER" MUST BE A CERTAIN COLOR? TASTE'S GREAT! A "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER" CAN BE ANY COLOR BECAUSE IT IS DESCRIBES THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF ROLLER PERFORMANCE? LESS FILLING! The Birmingham Roller as a breed has reached its full potential and ultimate development? TASTE'S GREAT! The Birmingham Roller as a breed is still being perfected and improved upon? LESS FILLING! NO ONE IS TRYING TO IMPROVE UPON THEIR BIRDS PERFORMANCE, FREQUENCY and DEPTH?… TASTE'S GREAT! EVERYONE IS TRYING TO IMPROVE ON THEIR BIRDS PERFORMANCE, FREQUENCY and DEPTH? LESS FILLING! Super bowl is coming up and I need to do a tad more research. LOL :)
Cliff
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nicksiders
3229 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:08 AM
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Two nestmates from a pair of proven Birminghams; one rolls very well and the other is a stiff. Are both nestmates Birminghams?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
233 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:26 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Great Posts guys....
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birdman
690 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:41 AM
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Nick's Quote: ("Two nestmates from a pair of proven Birminghams; one rolls very well and the other is a stiff. Are both nestmates Birminghams?")
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Nick, tell me what YOUR definition of a Birmingham is and I'll take the bait.
Russ
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Ballrollers
1690 posts
Feb 01, 2009
10:37 AM
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Nick,
Pensom said it very well. Read it in the post above. Who among us is qualified or willing to assert that they know better than Pensom on this issue? Not I, that's for certain. According to WHP, It can only be called a Birmingham Roller if it performs like one. The nestmate is nothing more than a common tumbler...no matter what it's pedigree looks like....and probably no matter what color it is....or if it has one of his West or Oriental breed outcrosses in it's background, though the latter statement is pure conjecture on my part based on what Pensom said.
Cliff.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 10:41 AM
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Ballrollers
1691 posts
Feb 01, 2009
10:40 AM
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Mayo,
Do me a favor and e-mail me the band numbers of the two pair of birds that you got from me...the reduced cock...the black self hen.... the andalusian cock and the black white flight hen. I forgot to record them with all the guys arriving for the CCPRC meeting that day.
Thanks,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 10:42 AM
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gentle johnnie
6 posts
Feb 01, 2009
11:14 AM
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Once again great post guys I would like to thank each of you for sharing you knowledge. Keep up the good work to uncover what is true and not!!!
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3757
1160 posts
Feb 01, 2009
11:16 AM
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Cliff - I cannot agree with this one
"The purist will certainly cry out that none of these ever made it into his main line. But you and I both know, as pigeon men, that if Pensom produced a quality performer that had one of these Wests several generations back in the pedigree."
Bill Pensom experimented as a young man to learn about pigeons as many young men do when they start out. He was a master breeder of Modena's and rollers and he also stated time and time again that nothing came good from cross-breds. He was adomant about that. His records are clear and procise as well as to the origins of his family of birds (See PRC pensom booklet Doucet 2009) If he had outcross birds in his pigeons he would be the first to say that crossing is ok. Well, I am labeled a purist but I think that we are discussing apples and oranges here anyway. It is nothing wrong with being a purist with a gentic family as the McCully Pensom rollers etc if someone like to breed Andulusions, white bars etc that is thier choice and as Ty said he is a purist with the Turner line. I do believe that the newbie should know the origins of the birds they are working with especially if the family has something else in it. To me it would be like getting a German shepard that had a little Rottweiller in it. Sure, we know it is a dog but is it still a German shepard? Genes in pigeons and people are amazing and the study of genetics is an ongoing process.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 11:21 AM
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Scott
1624 posts
Feb 01, 2009
11:20 AM
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Cliff that is a whole lot of speculation , Pensom stated (I have no time for big or little crossbreeds )that is a direct quote, no speculation on that one.
He also mentions Birmingham Roller as a breed countless times over,no speculation there,it is also listed as a breed, that is a fact, just another hijack by crossbreeding clowns to justifly mongralizing the breed for color and useing deceit to do so.
This "not a breed" stuff was started faily recently by those that crossbred for color to justifly what they do,but without a doubt many are "Birmingham Rollers " in name only, yep,there is alot of truth in that statement,and it holds true in every breed and domesticated specie there is.
Also why don't you give us the entire artical on the Wests instead of a cherry picked sentence along with your speculation,running a mutt accross his family makes no sence what so-ever,plus he even states that he has no time for crossbreds,I tend to over ride your speculation with common sence.
As for the other speculation, splat, splat, boom,boom I see such breeders as a black eye on the sport,not much breeding skill required there,nor can they stand on thier own due to it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 4:55 PM
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Scott
1625 posts
Feb 01, 2009
11:52 AM
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(The background on this family of birds show that ALL the color factors were introduced from other Rollers some 50-60 years ago. You make it sound like we are still introducing other breeds.)
WHICH IS IT CLIFF ? of course we both know the truth to this one ,shhhhh
(with new color modifying factors and flying styes being brought in from breed outcrosses at periodic intervals to improve the breed...just as in other breeds of pigeons......and it continues...like it or not. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1692 posts
Feb 01, 2009
1:16 PM
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Scott,
Tastes Great? I say "less filling." Frigging pigeons flown by pigeon geeks who are non-issues in the big picture anyway? I never thought I said these birds are not a "BREED." They are a breed unto themselves, like no other. Who is not trying to improve their birds? Reinvent the wheel? NO...but the wheels of today are a heck of a lot better than the ones 50 years ago.
I am just quoting from Pensom's wrotings...no speculation here, except for the statement that LaRon called me on...and he is entitled to do so. The conclusions that he and I draw from these facts I presented are conjecture and speculation at this point. Either one of us may provide addtional factual spport to validate our perspective. That's just part of logical debate. I respect his point of view, that as Pensom evolved in the sport that he may have left his breed outcrossing ways behind him. That is quite possible. He may have culled everyone of them and he may have culled every bird that he pinched from other roller men in his years in the hobby....maybe there is absolutely no blood of any of those birds in your family.....but it is just as likely that THERE IS. Nobody knows for sure if those West and Oriental Roller outcrosses were completely deleted from the family he developed. I say he put performance first.....that once he had the performance and type where he wanted it from these outcrosses, THEN, he recommended against further breed outcrosses...again, purely speculation on my part...just as it is speculation on your part that he culled it all and started over with something else. I have another reference where he talks about throwbacks that he is getting to his Oriental Roller crosses. There is enough room for doubt that you have absolutley no basis for a claim to have the only pure Birmingham Rollers; or to crticize anybody else's family of birds as mongrels because of a breed outcross in its distant past...like Indigo in the 1930s, about the same time Pensom was outcrossing to Wests and Orientals, which we see now may also be in the background of your own family. Some of these conclusions ARE speculation. Everyone is free to speculate on the impact of these facts on their own conclusions about the various strains of rollers. The basic facts as outlined by Pensom are not....as to the fact that he DID engage in breed outcrossing, as did others before him...and as to his definition of the Birmingham Roller as a performace basis. Those are his words, not mine.... But then we didn't really expect you to let a little thing like FACTS have an impact on your self-righteous purist agenda, Scott, now did we!? LOL!
Cliff.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 1:31 PM
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Ballrollers
1693 posts
Feb 01, 2009
1:24 PM
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Scott,
When I said. "and it continues...like it or not" I was speaking of the continued efforts of pigeon men everywhere to improve the looks and performance of this breed of pigeon. Some pursue it through intense inbreeding...some through multiple family outcrosses...and yes, some through breed outcrosses. The show roller fiasco has taught most of us a valuable lesson.....that this is probably not the way to go, lest it get outta hand again......but certainly it is done outside of the mainstream of the sport. I respect their right to do so. They do not have any impact on me and my family of rollers or on you and yours as far as I can see.
Cliff
PS. When I get the time I'll type out Pensom's entire article on the Wests for you.....until then... I'm off to a Superbowl party!....
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 1:26 PM
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nicksiders
3230 posts
Feb 01, 2009
1:56 PM
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Russ,
There is a belief my some that the words "Birmingham Roller" only represents a performance and is not a representive of a specific breed. I wanted to see how many in this forum would be able to argue that it is "not" a specific breed or is specific performce only.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 5:39 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
236 posts
Feb 01, 2009
2:23 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Nick,
I bet if you did a poll of all keepers of rollers the majority would say they had Birminghams... This is one of the dumbest subjects I have seen (not you).. You take a BR and mate it to a Modena you have 50/50 Modena/BR...Easy to fugure out.. This idea that some have the only pure BR is pure BS...If the first pigeon had no color, no boots, no crests, no roll, where did it come from? It came from within, and was pulled out and cultivated...No one bred a white chicken to the first pigeon to get white pigeons.
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birdman
692 posts
Feb 01, 2009
2:30 PM
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Nick, I understand the arguments of others and want to know which side of the fence you stand on.
Right now, you appear to be straddling the 'middle'.
Do YOU believe it's a breed standard or a performance standard?
Russ
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
259 posts
Feb 01, 2009
2:44 PM
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I have tried to stay out of this because I believe it is a BS thread started only to stir up problems. This isn't the first time for the initiater of this thread.
Nick, I believe it is a specific breed and the standard is performance as defined by WHP and other early breeders.
I really think we have had enough of this type thread. There are obviously 2 camps which will never agree so why don't we just stick to performance issues!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
1626 posts
Feb 01, 2009
3:40 PM
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Cliff,so let me get this straight, Pensom reinvented the breed by crossbreeding , then took the text from crossbreeding color breeders on getting the type back and what not by breeding back to the Birmingham Roller,and then turned against crossbreeding after doing such , just one question, do you think that we all are FRIGGING RETARDED where we can be baffled with Bullshit ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 4:21 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
240 posts
Feb 01, 2009
4:39 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott,
I dont think anyone thinks you are retarded...Maybe a little to much wheat and milo in your diet though..LOL
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glenn
196 posts
Feb 01, 2009
5:30 PM
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To all color breeders out there..you guys are way off base period. There is nothing I can say but "May All Your Color Dreams Come True". And Cliff..you should write a book on how color was introduced into the Brimingham Roller and improved the breed. That would be very intresting to know what type of bird was used and how many generations it took to fix the cross bred birds. All the stuff you guys never admit to, I think it would make for an intresting read. A very intresting book I think it would be.
Glenn
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nicksiders
3231 posts
Feb 01, 2009
5:35 PM
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Russ,
After all these years I think you probably know what side I stand on(LOL). I believe the Birmingham Roller to be a specific breed and has been declared that around 1876. So, if you have nestmates born from Birmingham Rollers then they will also be Birmingham Rollers regardless of thier performance levels.
I tried to take the middle road so as to allow others to voice thier actual feelings.........but it didn't work as I had planned(LOL).
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 5:38 PM
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birdman
693 posts
Feb 01, 2009
6:29 PM
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Nick, I agree with you that the BR is a specific breed but thought you were softening on your position...lol. I don't get caught up in the arguments though. I've seen the Indigo and Andalusians that can do it right and don't have a problem with that.
Thanks for being a good sport!!
Russ
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
242 posts
Feb 01, 2009
6:35 PM
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hey glen.....whatever----------
Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
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nicksiders
3232 posts
Feb 01, 2009
7:36 PM
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Russ,
I am not softening; just trying to be polite so as not to piss so many people off.(LOL). Even Cliff prefers the "new" me.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
166 posts
Feb 01, 2009
7:53 PM
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You boys eating tooooo much vetch !!
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De Oppresso Liber
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
244 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:25 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I have sen pretty much the same rollers 20 years ago as today except the few I posted wondering about...Now if you purists can go back that far and change it...have at it....the odds are that your fame to claim are very short lived..
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Ballrollers
1694 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:26 PM
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Glen/Scott,
I know Pensom's own words are stickin' in your throats like a chicken bone....Be that as it may, they are not my words, but his. Maybe he thought you were FRIGGIN RETARDED, as Scott puts it. Too bad he is not alive so you could ask him. The preponderence of evidence that I have seen so far indicates that I have as much right as you to refer to my birds as Birmingham Rollers, and until I see evidence to the contrary, that is what I will do. You can shoot your mouth off all you like, but unless you can come up with something more substantial than name-calling, disrespecting, judgement and criticism of other roller men and their families of birds, the case is closed as far as we are concerned.
Your efforts are duly noted and appreciated by all, Nick.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2009 8:40 PM
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glenn
198 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:35 PM
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Pensom's words are not sticking in my throat. Color cross breeders is what is very bad for the Brimingham Roller. I am not retarded & I dont think Scott is either. I am waiting on your book, so i can really learn how to piss off my birds...Glenn
"May All Your Color Dreams Come True"
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Ballrollers
1695 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:51 PM
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Guys,
We all know the performance standard. It is in place in the WC, NBRC and it is repeated over and over again when we refer to the Standard for a Birmingham ROLLER. Please list for us any and all references to color standards that are accepted by the WC, the NBRC, any local Club you know of. And while you are at it, please list all your references to any other Birmingham Roller standards you can find, which are enforced by any other recognized organization that promotes the Birmingham Roller as a performance breed. In this case, PERFORMANCE DEFINES THE BREED. If that is not good enough for all of US, then take it up with all the recognized roller organizations who promote this breed of pigeons. The Pigeon police do not exist today. All we have is our "OPINIONS", and a few sketchy historical notes found in articles in pigeon magazines and letters from long-dead pigeon men. While I may not agree with all opinions, I support each flyer's right to form his own opinion.
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
246 posts
Feb 01, 2009
9:28 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Ha Ha glen.... waiting for a book to piss off your rollers..LOL... You did that by killing any of their babies that did not meet your hitler like standards..LOL
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glenn
199 posts
Feb 01, 2009
10:10 PM
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Mr. Lipper:
My standars are not hitler like as you state. For one you don't know what my standards are, so your statement is off the wall. So when is your book coming out about how to breed better Rollers by crossing them onto other breeds of pigeons?
Glenn
"May All Your Color Dreams Come True"
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Mayo
104 posts
Feb 01, 2009
10:19 PM
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Damn! ask a question about Indigo and the whole @*%^#&@ Roller Pigeon Word GOs Ape-Pee....Sorry I even asked!...................P.S. Seem no one can put out this FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.MaYo
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
248 posts
Feb 02, 2009
12:28 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Mayo is this not what you wanted? I believe it needs to be addressed...I believe both sides are sincere in this subject..I believe all will come to a conclusion..And the conclusion will be a little of both..
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Sir Frankie
29 posts
Feb 02, 2009
12:29 PM
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I heard the blue bars and blue checks are dominant colors from racing homes. Does this pertain to the rollers too and did the roller blue bars and blue checks get crossed to racing pigeons to get that color?
Thanks, Frankie
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Ballrollers
1696 posts
Feb 02, 2009
6:19 PM
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Hehehehehe...now that's funny, Frankie!
I have a lot more Pensom letters and material to go through. We'll see what other interesting things he had to say about the results of his breed outcrossing....his definition of the Birmingham Roller....his frustration with the unfortunate emphasis on turn performance, etc. I'll keep you posted, guys. As I did above, I will try to quote exactly what Pensom said and you can each draw your own conclusions. When I draw MY personal conclusions, I will try to identify them as such, so you can differentiate between the two. You may come to a different conclusion, from the same information, and we may learn something from each other's perspectives. Name-calling and attempting to disrespect each other will get us nowhere. Fortunately, only a very few engage in this childish and immature behavior on this site.
Cliff
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Scott
1632 posts
Feb 02, 2009
8:39 PM
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Your right Cliff , it is childish and it's gone to far, I apologize
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
2050 posts
Feb 03, 2009
5:12 AM
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I have heard of kite and indigo being confused for each other. Whats the difference?
I get a lot of kite in my birds from one line. When I was talking to a guy about my birds and told him about the kite, he said " you have some of the 514 stock."
He said that 514 threw kites and one of my lines is supposed to be off 514. He knows my birds from before I even got them.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Ballrollers
1697 posts
Feb 03, 2009
5:50 AM
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Scott,
Think nothing of it. If we were not so passionate about our birds, we would not care like we do. I see your position and I respect how you feel on these issues. And yes, my personal preference would be that we all communicate with respect towards each other, even when we disagree. But that won't always happen. My understanding about this topic just leads me to have a different opinion than yours, that's all. In any event, it takes a big man to offer up an apology.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1698 posts
Feb 03, 2009
5:54 AM
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Kenny,
There is no relationship between kite and indigo. They sort of show up similarly....kite being rr or bronze showing up in a t-check....indigo showing up as a bronzing on blue check bird. Indigo is actually blue...intensifies the blue and also deletes the tail bar.....I'm not sure where the red cast comes from. My color genetics is fairly limited.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2009 5:54 AM
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Ballrollers
1699 posts
Feb 03, 2009
6:18 AM
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For some of you who are interested in when and if the breed came into existance (Nick), I came accross the following by Pensom in 1932, "The Feathered World":
"Seeing that H. Mitchell does not favour the name, British High Flying Performing Tumbler and Roller, and that I am responsible for this suggestion, let me point out that we are not making an alteration, as the variety has never had a recognized name, and the great majority of birds even in Birmingham today do not answer to the description of a true Birmingham (which is a deep roller). They are mostly Tumblers, which is a correct definition of them....I suggest we find a new name for our variety as well..."
I notice, at this point, that he refers to it as a "variety", not yet a breed....
Then in 1934 in "American Pigeon Keeper", he says,"I want readers to thoroughly understand that it is the Birmingham Roller with which I am cocerned. The definition of same we are all familiar with, namely that outlined by the late Lewis Wright. I have no fear that we need seek further than this description from his assertion, which we know to be correct,"a Birmingham Roller can only be so termed from its performance in the air," and it is here where the difficulties of most fanciers lie...resulting in the most regrettable state of affairs of calling anything that performs a "roller" whether it rolls or not....the pedigree without correct performance is worthless and to allude to well-bred moderate performers as "Rollers", one might just as well call a Modena a Strasser".
Then he goes on to say," The difference between any breed and the Birmingham Roller is that other breeds have a standard to which the respective fanciers cultivate their stock, and until such is attained, they value their product accordingly whilst those of us who breed Birmingham Rollers avoid our standard...how many fanciers know how to use historical material is another matter, of which I will say nothing, escept that the true Birmingham Roller is conspicuous by its absence."
It appears at this point that he is attempting to establish the variety as a breed.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2009 6:21 AM
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