spinningdemon
288 posts
Feb 03, 2009
7:37 AM
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Great info Cliff. Thank you for sharing that bit of history.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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spinningdemon
289 posts
Feb 03, 2009
7:51 AM
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This is not a big nasty fight like I first thought it would turn into I have learned a lot as I reveiw the posts. I do want more of the history though!
Cliff I would be interested in the west complete article as well is there a way to shoot me a copy?
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1633 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:11 AM
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Cliff,you are completly missing the context of his message,and you need to re-read that first paragragh.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1700 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:17 AM
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Tell me what you are seeing, Scott.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1701 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:20 AM
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Another interesting tidbit from Pensom in 1930:
"I say breed for good looks as well as performance; it can be done. The rolling tendency, in my opinion, is too well transmitted to give cause for anxiety for spoiling by introducing good looks as well…..I feared I might spoil the performance of the offspring by trying to breed beauty, but my opinion has altered. It is just as easy to combine good looks with performance as it is to breed for performance only………..I should mention that I have had marvelously good results from every point by careful inbreeding, and I am convinced that, as in any livestock, inbreeding in Rollers is the way to success. I have proved it both with performance and good looks….”
Cliff
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
266 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:40 AM
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Cliff,
Thanks for ferreting out these gems. I tend to agree on the last post but I wonder if he changed his mind because his later writings seem to conflict with this idea. I think he was right as long as you still place the highest value on quality of the spin and are dogmatic about that. No compromises for color.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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3757
1162 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:51 AM
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Cliff - In all actuality Bill did not consider any of the birds Birmingham’s but the Black Country birds which he stated is where the standard spinning pigeons were located.
Cliff - I have done a mixed method approach the last 40 years and have much of my information from interviews from individuals who were very close to him. I will personally send you something this year to enhance your research. Bill did not even consider the Whittinghams Birmingham rollers even though they performed but in his view "not to standard." In his view there were only a few individuals who actually had Birmingham rollers.
The only thing I am against is that many have lied about the breeding. Recently, an individual purchased a family that was suppose to be the old blood (site unseen) and he produced birds that had weird colors. After investigating he found out that the individual had a family that was crossed at one point for color. To me this is deceiving. I think that the fanciers should be informed so that they can make their own decision as to what they want in my opinion. Look at what happened to the flying West. Go try and find a West that has not been crossed and you may find one or two guys back east who may have some but that is about it.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
268 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:05 AM
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LaRon,
Good to hear from you. I agree that the problem is false advertising. Since WHP has been dead for 40 yrs now there are no "Pensom Rollers" but there are many birds that carry the blood from birds he raised. Anyone buying pure "Pensom Rollers" should view that claim with skepticism.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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3757
1163 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:17 AM
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Joe - Thanks as I am feeling a lot better. I undertand what you are saying but Pensom rollers by definition was not confined to those birds bred by Bill himself as many think today. Smith (38 years called his birds Pensom rollers) Lehmeyer (Same) Perkins (Same) etc etc. If we use the logic of only bred by the individual there are no fireballs, Caspersons, Smith, Plona or whatever for that matter. The Pensom rollers by original definition were those birds that traced back to the original imports without outcross. Some may say why but that is what they were called in this country 35 years prior to Bills death and up until the early eighties. I agree with you on the word strain. Did you ever see Bill's add? He said breeder of the true Birmingham rollers! He really _____ a lot of people off with that add. The funny thing about it is that people really take this stuff so serious (I included) and when you really think about the entire spectrum of life it is just a bird. All of the trophies, world cup wins etc really is nothing when we really examine life. Thanks again Joe and I hope you are well also.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
269 posts
Feb 03, 2009
10:09 AM
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LaRon,
I understand what you are saying, the vast majority of my birds are Pensom based as the go back to Bob Evans's imports from WHP. A small related family have some Turner blood crossed into them but are still Pensom based. I would not consider any of them as "Pensom Rollers" nor would I claim that they are but that is just me, others may disagree.
Believe me I understand what you mean about life, after 2 bouts with cancer and a heart attack I cherish every moment I have on this earth!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
1702 posts
Feb 03, 2009
11:53 AM
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Scott and David,
Here is the complete article on the Wests from which I obtained the quote:
Rollers- -West and English
(1931)
I was interested to read letters of G. Manning and E. Overy concerning Rollers. I have often wondered why this subject was not brought up before; i.e., the difference between the West of England Tumbler and the English Roller, and the showing of these birds. I was, unfortunately, unable to attend the Palace Show this year.
I have very little to do with “Wests”, but what I have been led to understand about them is that they are bred chiefly for long time, high flying. I have been pleased to read of the good times put up by these birds. All this is quite in opposition to the Roller. I have crossed Rollers with Wests and the result was vigorous flyers. However, I plead ignorance as to what constitutes a West. I should be glad to know the true value of the West as a performer.
Regarding the showing part of this subject, I have always noticed that West of England Tumblers were in the majority in classes allotted to Rollers. Usually every variety has a name, and only by its name can it be judged. Is the West of England High Flying Tumbler known by two names, the other being Roller? In my opinion it is unfair for all sides that the respective varieties are not catered for by their own names. This includes the Oriental Rollers. I have yet to see a class scheduled for West of Englands—“Flying Tumbler” means nothing.
Mr. Manning mentions that Rollers are judged for periods of twenty minutes, which is quite true. The reasons for this is that the chief governing feature of these competitions is that the greatest number of “turns” gets the most points. A “turn” consists of a kit of birds flying in close formation, and rolling and tumbling at the same time. That is the time when the birds show off their best performances as a body. Twenty to twenty-five is the usual number of birds in a kit, hence the training for the duration mentioned.
Rollers, like all other flying breeds, must be in perfect flying condition to give of their best in the way of performances. To fly and train a kit of birds that are in perfect flying condition takes some doing. My experience has bee the trouble of getting them down. Sometimes they will keep flying for a couple of hours with the droppers continually being worked under them.
Rollers can be trained to fly for many hours. They then cease to be Rollers, because they soon lose their rolling propensities. Now, as regards the size of these birds, my experience with Rollers, along with the literature I have read and the illustrations I have seen, has taught that the best Rollers is a bird about the size of the average Flying Tippler. Myself, I like a bird that is long cast in type but not too big. I have always found that the bigger a bird is the more open it is in its rolling. They do not roll tight, but appear more like a cartwheel than a cricket ball.
There seem to be a number of people who are skeptical as to how far a Roller should roll, there being no standard on this or any other point. It is difficult to say. A fancier who likes a deep Roller will value a bird that rolls no more than six to eight yards. Myself, I consider eight yards the limit for a bird to be of any use for pleasure. Birds rolling farther than this invariably kill or injure themselves for life. I hear of recent enquiries by fanciers for birds that will roll twenty or thirty yards and keep perfect control. This suggests to me that their imagination has run away with them. I should like to see some myself.
I sympathize with Mr. E. J. Overy, and suggest he has been unfortunate in his purchases, and I trust his experiment will not prove a failure. In conclusion, I hope this debate which can be made most interesting and useful will not be misconstrued and turned into a miserable argument.
Wm. H. Pensom
-Pigeons of England, January 15, 1931
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Ballrollers
1703 posts
Feb 03, 2009
12:03 PM
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Joe,
I don't think there is any doubt that Pensom changed his mind on some of the issues as he gained more experience in the breeding and flying of Rollers. In fact, we know that he did so on sseveral key issues, such as keel length etc. I do not view that as a negative, but a strength of wisdom. It is far more insane to hold onto old ideas that may not work, when new data and experience are giving us reason to believe something different. As he watched roller men and the hobby in general get side-tracked in their efforts to breed birds that look good, it would not surprise me at all to see that he reversed himself placing more emphasis on performance. Of course that doesn't really take away from what he said CAN be done......And apparrently it did not take him but a couple years or so to decide that breed outcrossing was far inferior to inbreeding in the establishment of a family of rollers....based on his own experience. The truth is...I agree with most all of what I am reading.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1704 posts
Feb 03, 2009
12:12 PM
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LaRon,
Yes, I have come accross several references to the men of the Black Country and his high esteem for their birds. I look forward to any additional information that you can send me, and I appreciate your effort.
Men have lied about breeding on both sides of this issue.."color" breeders and "pure Pensom" breeders alike. I suppose that will never change when the main objective is money. Most of us have been burned somewhere along the line. Some men probably do it out of fear of repercussions from the judgement of their colleagues. It pays to know who one is dealing with in obtaining birds.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2009 12:28 PM
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Ballrollers
1705 posts
Feb 03, 2009
1:02 PM
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LaRon,
Here's the first reference I find about the Black Country....
Rollers and Tumblers
(1931)
...There used to be a group of fanciers in this part of the country (Birmingham) who knew a Roller from A to Z, and were always on the look-out for a good bird. Distance and money were no obstacle to them, and they would start off with a pony and a trap on a Saturday afternoon for the Black Country and such places as Cradley Heath, Halesowen, and Stourbridge, etc., where even today are flown some of the best Rollers ion the world. Such stalwarts in the Roller Fancy as the late T. Wicks, Dick Stokes, A. Fellows and H. Young were perhaps known to some readers, and I believe were associated with many of these outings. Those good old days, alas! are now past, for on the advent of the late war and the joining up of most fanciers, their pigeons went adrift-some were killed, and others went to people who but little knew their high value. Since then, owing to many modern attractions of life, true Roller fanciers have become rare, although there are still a few ardent ones left to appreciate a proper deep Roller.
Wm. H. Pensom
From The Feathered World of England, November 13, 1931.
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spinningdemon
290 posts
Feb 03, 2009
1:33 PM
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Cliff thank you for that it was a lot of work and I did enjoy the article thank you so much for sharing.
LaRon yes good luck on finding any real flying west's I have given up on that search and I am just working with the birds I have. I do beleive that with the birds you have and someothers we can get the breed back on track.
Did you ever finish your book? Just a wondering and looking forward to it.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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3757
1164 posts
Feb 03, 2009
1:51 PM
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David - Yes, I think we can. I am working hard on it but it is getting there.
Cliff- H. Young was breeding in the 1800's and Bill Pensom did not know him but his father did.
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Ballrollers
1706 posts
Feb 03, 2009
2:14 PM
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No problem, David. I want to be sure that nobody accuses me of lifting my quote out of context.
I appreciate those little tid-bits of info, LaRon. You are one guy that I'd like to sit down for a few hours and pick your brain! LOL!
Cliff
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glenn
201 posts
Feb 03, 2009
8:52 PM
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Hello:
There is a guy in Cental Calif. that raises Flying Wests, his name is Michael. I don't know if he is still around and I do not have his contact info. Maybe one of the L.A.P.C. guys might know him....Glenn
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3757
1165 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:07 PM
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Glenn- I wanted to have a meeting at Simply wholesome with the LA PRC members. When are you available?
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macsrollers
16 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:48 PM
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Birmingham Rollers were developed by crossing different breeds together in the first place, just like so called thoroughbred horses, etc. The only pure pigeon is the original Columbia Rock Pigeon or dove. I agree that color birds are projects that can be difficult to develop in to outstanding spinners. But I have seen Andulusians, Indigos, Opals, Almonds, and Yellows in the air that can spin with the best and have all the qualities wanted for 11 bird or 20 bird competition. Don't get me wrong, I am a hard core Birmingham Roller breeder that started out being mentored by Doug and Don Ouellette. Those who know them know their opinion on color birds. But if a person wants to breed, feed, and give their time to such projects, then I respect them. I have a Almond family, a Andulusion family, a little bit of Opal, and some yellow that I play with. I have gotten quality spin out of all of these, but not the cleanest looking of each color. So to each their own. I respect anyone's choice to breed for color, but in the sky over my house they must spin with the best to make that worthwhile. Respectfully, Don M. Mac's Rollers
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Mayo
107 posts
Feb 03, 2009
11:06 PM
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See Guys . Look at all the info for the new guys that you all put out there.lol... also I have enjoyed reading some of these post on this thread, started out as arguments and turned in to Learning experience........good job! .MaYo
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glenn
203 posts
Feb 04, 2009
12:16 AM
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Hello mayo:
It is still an argument..but remember ..
"May All Your Color Dreams Come True"
Glenn
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Scott
1634 posts
Feb 04, 2009
6:09 AM
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Good articals for sure, I'm just not sure what they had to due with this discussion or thred.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1707 posts
Feb 04, 2009
6:46 AM
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Yeah, you're right Scott. I sorta got off on a tangent of interesting stuff while reading this. Tony, you might want to move these posts of Pensom's to a new thread and title it "Pensom's Views on the Issues."
Glenn,
You are correct in that many would describe this thread as an argument. But I would call it a good exchange of differing opinions. Some men have offered opinions based on color bias, some have offered their opinions based on how a buddy feels on a subject. I try to form my opinions on reading the history and/or based on genetic texts, and based on first-hand information. I see many guys basing their opinions on knee-jerk reactions to any discussion of rare colors, without any regard to how they perform. By sharing these opinions I can see how my understanding of these issues could change when additional facts are uncovered. Where these discussions seem to fall short is when long-held opinions of individuals have no support from the organizations who promote the birds. Look at all the standards set up for all the different breeds..... who enforces those standards, who wrote those standards? THE CLUBS and OR THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT PROMOTE THAT BREED! They determine the breed standards, NOT the individual members. Roller Breeders are an independent lot who do not easily bend to the wind of change. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Whatever your understanding of this age old question, first and foremost, enjoy the birds and the people who fly them.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2009 6:48 AM
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spinningdemon
293 posts
Feb 04, 2009
6:56 AM
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Glen, do you have contact info for the LAPC I could find none online.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1638 posts
Feb 04, 2009
7:10 AM
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Cliff,it's the same thing when I start going through that old stuff, it is just down right interesting and just plain old good reads.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1710 posts
Feb 04, 2009
8:10 AM
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Scott,
I couldn't agree with you more! It is fascinating to read these articles. The more we read Pensom, the better we understand where he was coming from.
Cliff
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glenn
204 posts
Feb 04, 2009
8:25 AM
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Hello David:
Here you go...http://lapigeonclub.com/
Glenn
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spinningdemon
296 posts
Feb 04, 2009
11:02 AM
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Thank you Glenn
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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toronto15
28 posts
Feb 05, 2009
4:44 PM
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I,ve been reading a lot of the same topics through the search site. I find I am learning and understanding more when these discussions are taking place presently and over the course of a couple of days.Which Pensom book should I get to read? Thanks to all you Roller guys for sharing your knowledge and views.I sense a lot of differentiating opinions,but a lot of commrodery at the same time.Glen.
P.S. Scott,I hope Cliff isn,t your dentist!lol.
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Ballrollers
1726 posts
Feb 06, 2009
7:13 AM
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toronto,
I can only dream of getting my hands on him! LOL! He is 3000 miles away.....
Cliff
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Scott
1655 posts
Feb 06, 2009
3:04 PM
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Glenn, the fact is I like Cliff ,we just don't know when to quit and we enjoy bitch slapping each other, no we don't agree but that is ok.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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