Scott
1689 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:47 AM
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Mike,if they were easy to find then everyone would be flying great pigeons, sadly though that isn't the case by a long shot.
Right now I am breeding out of 8 good pair, few actualy have that many worth breeding out of.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 11:49 AM
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Ballrollers
1745 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:51 AM
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Brad,
You should know me, by now. I don't quote facts or form an opinion without the data to back it up...Joe Quinn put some figures on the number, in his latest book, and it was based on the number of PRC bands that were sold over a couple of decades when few Pensom birds that were being sold were being flown out. There was so much demand for these birds that sellers of Pensom birds were just cranking out numbers...not flying them out....because they couldn't keep up with the demand...and the buyers were doing the same.....seems like it was in the range of 50,000 or so, guys breeding and selling Pensom culls on name only. To me that's as bad or worse than breeding and selling color culls. It's just as much of a rip off. But don't quote me on that figure, yet. I'll get the correct figure for you when I get home tonight.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 11:56 AM
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winwardrollers
125 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:52 AM
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Lipper
You stated..."I picked up a yellow grizzle last November and fianally flew him on Saturday morning...He never made it back to the kit coop..I got a call from the guy I got him from saying he was sitting on his kit box..This is about 7 miles as the crow flies and about 4 months....Does this show any intelligence etc..?"
I would say yes.. it shows intelligence...Breed it to your Homers.
Bwinward
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
286 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:53 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Sorry Scott I always thought your neck of the woods had some of the best rollers. I must have been wrong in my thinking..
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
287 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:55 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
LOL Brian, I would but I am afraid he would win a race and then spin 30 feet showing off...I dont like to see jelousy in my homer loft...
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Scott
1691 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:18 PM
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Good rollers are few and far between regardless of the neck of the woods you are from,but then the lower your standards the more there are , good luck.
(Sorry Scott I always thought your neck of the woods had some of the best rollers. I must have been wrong in my thinking..)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
288 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:27 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Ouch Scott, LOL.. Hey in reality though it is not a lower standard that I have from yours Scott..It is an entirely different standard than that of yours.. I expect the same quality that you do, although I do expect a much better return on investment than some of you.
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Scott
1693 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:30 PM
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Then Mike you should be easily be cleaning my clock soon as I don't find it that easy,good luck !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
126 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:30 PM
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Lipper
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap..yellow,30 ft. rolling,homers..that quite a dream.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 12:37 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
289 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:38 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Then Mike you should be easily be cleaning my clock soon as I don't find it that easy,good luck !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Well Scott you are the man of the hour..
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Scott
1694 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:41 PM
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Cliff I buy that , not sure about the comparison to the mutts though, but yea many pedigree breeding with no purpose,and it still goes on today to some extent,not as much though as now you are expected to put them up.
luckily there were flyers also though that kept the breed alive so that the breed survived and color breeders had something to breed thier mutts too.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 12:42 PM
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Scott
1695 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:43 PM
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Good luck with that goal Mike, that is the ultimate compliment.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
290 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:48 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Your more than welcome Scott keep up the good work.
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Hector Coya
420 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:58 PM
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Scott
Coincitently the oly familt i have that may breed 4 non performong rollers back to back are my Redheaded hen line,but its also the only family on my property that i have keped pure,they have been inbred since i got the first pair from Bob Scott in 1982 ,i find it harded each year to get the % i use to with there greatgrandparents,do you think its breeding the roll out from not outcrossing?
I still get very good birds out of them but i do get some that never roll,and thats more often the my MUTTS.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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spinningdemon
315 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:04 PM
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
291 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:07 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
LOL Hector, I still laugh every time I read that line.. LOL
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
164 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:13 PM
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Hector You said that they were a friends birds and he wanted you to fly them out for him. Well if that was the case then you should give them a chance. They like I said might be a family of late developers. You know the ones Pensom like to fly. JDA
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spinningdemon
316 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:15 PM
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Brad,
Heres the list for you of all the varieties of birds I have had,
Birmingham rollers, oriental rollers, west of england flying tumblers, arabian trumpeters, crested caps that were sold to me as crested rollers and galati rollers.
I have had the orientals the longest. But there was only a year or two with out birminghams.
If you read my posts I have never claimed to know a bunch about comps, however I have stated the oppisite many, many times.
Now in your new post and the one to Mike you mock our quotes or loft name? how long did it take you to come up with winward rollers? did you have to use several sheets of paper? did you call the trade mark office to see if it was taken?
Brad in a nut shell in simple terms I really want someone to tell this "new" comp guy why everyone is so dead set agianst flying an opal. It has to be one of the reasons that I have posted because just being opal dosent cut it.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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spinningdemon
317 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:18 PM
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Norlan thank you so much great post I learned from your post and need to hear more like that. Your post is why I spend time on the sites every once in a while someone comes up with a keeper.
Thanks again Norlan.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1696 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:21 PM
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Hector, it boils down to selection or lack of, it is rare that I get a bird that does nothing, all my birds roll to one degree or another.
But just because it rolls doesn't make it a good one by any stretch of the imagination,and I expect them to hold up and survive,right now I have my eye on a three year old hen in my A team for "potential" stock, she rolls hard and has survived countless attacks and her share of over flys,this is what I want in my stock,but if she doesn't produce back out to the kit she goes .
You went wrong some where, it isn't the family because it was prooven a strong solid family,out crossing has nothing to do with it as you would be downbreeding one or the other.
You are seeing more roll out of the others because they are weak and can't resist the roll,which is the nature of cross breeds, making mutts roll is easy, having the mental fortitude to handle it is a different animal,that isn't a good thing.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 1:42 PM
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spinningdemon
318 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:21 PM
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Cliff, I have been burned by more ped. guys then color guys by far. I am not downing pedigrees they are necesary to know what you have produced and help you decide on wich way to go. So pedigrees are a requirment to breed better rollers but should not be used as a selling tool.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
292 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:24 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott you dont really believe that do you? Weak and cant resist the roll? Where did you ever come up with that? LOL.......
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Scott
1697 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:35 PM
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Mike, what I love about this breed is how complicated it is,the mental aspect of a first class pigeon that will fully commit and then shoot back to the kit like nothing happened, or completley shut off the roll or tumble when it isn't safe, and then do it year after year is truley amazing.
Think deeper than just the surface Mike,there is much more to a first class pigeon than just spinning,it must also have the gear to handle it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 1:36 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
293 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:46 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott it was there 20 years ago, and it is still here today..I dont want to burst any bubbles, but it is not just in your birds Scott...I have seen it most places and in most colors.. Your winning comps so keep doing what your doing, you have evidentlly found a niche in your birds...Its not the only one out there..
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j .wanless
635 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:50 PM
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hi all
dave a good stockman will have a good stock book thats all he needs.i do have pedigrees just in case people want them .but i have never gone to 1 of my pedigrees to check up on any of my birds.i always go to my stock book.i still have my oldest stock book or whats left of it + its the old school books from 1974.
i have gone back to that book from time to time.i should really throw it away but keep it for sentimental reasons.woul hate to think someone got hold of it lol.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
294 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:51 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Scott it is great to go and see other birds fly. The only reaso I am working with the different families I have now is to hopefully get a couple of exceptional birds to work with..What I determine to be exceptional... Scott, this time I'm doing things my way.. No more chasing legends for me...
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Ballrollers
1746 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:54 PM
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David,
I guess that's what has turned most of us off toward the "pure pedigree" camp. I have far more friends in the sport all over the country that raise rollers that have a color modifier or two, than I do men who raise pure pedigree birds......though I do have several that I know I could call up tomorrow and get good quality Pensom stock from, any time.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 1:54 PM
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Scott
1698 posts
Feb 09, 2009
2:08 PM
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Your right Mike, this normaly doesn't work, it comes down to finding the right key pigeons,and they will be few,but if they are right they will give you the foundation to build off of.
(No more chasing legends for me...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1699 posts
Feb 09, 2009
2:10 PM
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Never claimed it to be Mike!
(Scott it was there 20 years ago, and it is still here today..I dont want to burst any bubbles, but it is not just in your birds Scott...I have seen it most places and in most colors.. Your winning comps so keep doing what your doing, you have evidentlly found a niche in your birds...Its not the only one out there.. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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spinningdemon
320 posts
Feb 09, 2009
2:31 PM
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John, thank you for your comments about your stock book. Do not toss it keep it forever if you can . I lost my old ones in a house flood and often wish I could go and read them again.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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toronto15
36 posts
Feb 09, 2009
2:34 PM
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Thanks Dave Szab for your #228 post. I,ve been racking my brains trying to figure out how to get into this without keeping a ton of birds.Glen.
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Dave Szab
229 posts
Feb 09, 2009
3:57 PM
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Hey Glen,
No problem, it can be done if you are smart about it and build up the stock loft to where it needs to be. Start with good solid stock, and shrink the gene pool around the right birds. Find a vein of gold and mine it for all it is worth.
I don't think Cliff has read that post, because he hasn't answered it yet. LOL.
Dave
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Scott
1702 posts
Feb 09, 2009
4:00 PM
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Thats it in a nutshell Dave, if you breed smart and fly smart this sport is much more enjoyable.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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spinningdemon
322 posts
Feb 09, 2009
6:07 PM
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Scott, Thanks for your short but sweet thoughts,
"It comes down to finding the right key pigeons,and they will be few,but if they are right they will give you the foundation to build off of."
And "if you breed smart and fly smart this sport is much more enjoyable."
Cant get more simple then those two sayings, Thanks for the thoughts.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Dave Szab
230 posts
Feb 10, 2009
8:45 AM
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Cliff,
I appreciate your well thought out answer. I wonder why you left out, and did not respond to the gist of my question in my last paragraph? Here is what I prefaced my question with:
"You have seen my set-up. I only breed out of 8 pair, no more, no less. I only raise on average about 35 babies each year for myself. Over the winter, all I ever keep is about 30 birds in a holdover kit, and my 8 pairs of breeders, and I lock down for at least 5 months during the winter. For the 6 or 7 months that I actually do fly, I am only flying my holdover kit and that year's babies. With this small set-up, I am still very consistent in winning in competition. You say that you fly 9 kits, I don't know how many pairs you breed from or how many babies you breed, but I'm sure it is plenty if you are flying 9 kits, AND you can fly mostly year round, and probably breed year round too if you wanted to."
What I wanted your opinion on was, if you bred and kept small numbers like I do, would you still have the same success, or do you need to fly 9 kits like you do? How many pairs do you breed out of to get those 9 kits, and is breeding that many neccessary to get enough good birds for your comp kits?
Dave
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Ballrollers
1749 posts
Feb 10, 2009
11:59 AM
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Dave,
I'd say that you appear to be a couple years ahead of me in the stock loft. I am breeding out of about 15 key pairs. Then I always have a few pairs of project birds...the Starleys, Schoenings, etc. that I breed for comparison of performance. I breed year 'round (not the same pairs) so most months I am settling and training youngsters. You have to remember that I am still in the process of proving out many of those breeders (that I obtained by picking birds out of the air, or unproven stock birds). Switching out pairs and breeding 10 birds each year and flying them out is a lengthy process, as you know, so I'm trying to shorten that process as much as possible. So far, 75% of my comp team is being produced by three pair. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with any of the others! But either the cock or the hen in another 6-8 pair of closely-related birds (to the three click pairs) has demonstrated relatively good productivity in previous years, and I am trying to sort out which one is the producer in those pairs. I also pulled five birds from my comp team last year and bred them back to their opposite sex parent and am flying out those bird to see what I get. (Yes, I do fly year 'round) This year, in '09, I have put together my first four pair of birds that I raised and flew in my comp team for two years, and then stocked them...my Ballrollers! LOL! I give away sesveral kits of birds....several of these 9 kits are promised out as soon as the weather breaks for shipping, and one is the comp team. So in essence, our key pairs of producers are about the same in number. If I limited my breeding to those key pairs, yes, I feel quite certain that I would be just as competitive...I just wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for birds....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2009 2:22 PM
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katyroller
344 posts
Feb 10, 2009
8:44 PM
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If a fancier flys non-typical colored birds, the birds are considered "mongrels" and the fancier is labeled a cross breeder, no matter how well the birds perform. What if they cross breed and don't tell anyone and the young all come out as BB's, BC's that "look" pure and roll their asses off? Is anyone going to jump to conclusions and rush to bad mouth the fancier and his family? Hmmmm.....
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donnie james
216 posts
Feb 10, 2009
9:13 PM
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hay j.wanless i have to agree with you i flown in about 20 local flys 5 state flys and 2 world cups you know what your doing and having the birds to working together as a team or a kit and you have to what your doing to..............donny james
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Scott
1718 posts
Feb 11, 2009
5:56 AM
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Cliff do you fly these seperatly ? I would think that the managment would be on the other end of the spectrum.
(the Starleys, Schoenings, etc. that I breed for comparison of performance)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1750 posts
Feb 11, 2009
7:39 AM
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Of course, Scott. I have nine kit boxes and every kit is housed and fed separately according to their needs...based on what the guys recommend for their families. The Schoening kit tends to sky out right now, but they are rolling 10 ft. or so. I'll get a handle on their feed in the coming months. Right now it's hard to tell much because they are all on the chunky side with the extraordinarily cold winter that we have had. Plus they are all fairly young...summer and fall hatches. So this spring and summer will tell the tale. You gotta remember, I'm not married....so I have a lot of time for pigeons! LOL!
Cliff
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gotspin7
2237 posts
Feb 12, 2009
6:26 AM
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Mr. Wanless, I also follow the KISS method. Thanks for sharing.
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Sal Ortiz
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2472 posts
Feb 12, 2009
11:18 AM
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Sal we not talking about kissing your wife now talking about keepping it simple ..lol Sal whats up..everything kool..?
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Ralph
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KATCHER
40 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:11 PM
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DAVE,SCOTT AND WINWARDROLLERS LEAVE THE PINK AND WHITE BAR PENCIL AND MILKY AND STENCIL BOYS ALONE!!! THEY ARE ON A BIG MISSION!! THEY WILL BE THE NEXT TURNERS OF THEIR TIMES!! JUST IMAGEN IN 1 TOO 3 YEARS WER WILL THOSE 9 KITS WILL BE!! SPREADING ALL OVER THE WORLD!! WE ARE TOOOO LATE!! TO STOP IT!!! CUD YOU IMAGEN IN 20 YEARS HOW THIS WILL AFECT THE SPORT AND THE NBRC!!!! IT SCARES ME!!! A CRESTED PINK STENCIL ON THE FRONT COVER OF THE NBRC SEAL!!!! THIS COLOR THING IS SPREDING LIKE RELIGION!!
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Scott
1727 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:14 PM
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I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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KATCHER
41 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:23 PM
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tony i belive if you want to get rich you should team up with cliff cud you imagen how much money you cud make selling those colorfull birds!!!!thousands a day!! maybe you cud sale 2 strains the rubys and the color ones!!! pretty soooon those color birds will be the most wanted birds out here instead of brs like higgins reed and all the other big names!!! this color thing is like the stock market its the next big thing!!! lol..... no disrespect tony.... i just had it with how this color thing is going!!! but one thing i trully belive that if cliff would stop backing up birds that turner inveted or created this web site would be a better place!!! if he cools down then all the color lovers and folowers would not even start all this arguing!!!! they dont have a voice with out cliff!!! so cliff roll your color and stop ading color to the fire!!!
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Scott
1730 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:32 PM
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Yea Cliff , what he said LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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KATCHER
43 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:33 PM
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.
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2009 8:37 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
296 posts
Feb 12, 2009
8:38 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
you do realise the little pink pigeon was a joke......i hope..lol
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gotspin7
2241 posts
Feb 13, 2009
4:27 AM
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Ralph, Everything is well brother, oh and of course I have to kiss the wife. How are things in la isla del encanto? Oh and what I meant is that,I keep it simple STUPID!....LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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Ballrollers
1756 posts
Feb 13, 2009
7:22 AM
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Katcher,
Where were guys like you when the hobby was being ruined by the selling of thousands of unflown rollers based on pedigree alone? I know of guys that have bred and flown such birds for their entire lives and have nothing to show for it....wasted their lives and still can't field a decent kit...Why weren't you belly-aching then!?There will always be choices of families of rollers for roller men to breed and fly. As you can see, Scott's not worried....I'm not worried. Relax. The hobby doesn't need guys like you running around crying that the sky is falling....but it's a free country....
Cliff
PS I don't sell pigeons and I don't add color.....and I don't start these arguments, but I do try to finish them.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2009 7:25 AM
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