Scott
1935 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:01 AM
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I am constantly amazed why so many want to use unflown and culls for stock,and useing every excuse under the sun to do so,I have seen people come in here asking about a bird flipping and being advised to breed it by something someone heard and read,even rolldowns someone is making excuses for to breed.
Every time I cull one out of my best for being too weak, too weak mentaly ect. I am reminded of how important it is to fly the dog crap out of these guys to know what they are truely made of,and that doesn't mean 6 months either.
In fact I have a scrub kit up now, in it is a bird that I almost stocked early, now the bird is up there in and out of the kit, too much roll,rolling weak and I know my birds well enough to know that this bird is a cull and isn't going to recover to it's earlier (2 mo.) self.
Maybe the problem is that most just have a hard time finding real stock birds,after all they are rare as hens teeth, I know that I certainly do.
There are guys breeding 15-30 plus pair, holy shit, I got nine pair and a portion of those aren't completly prooven stock,at least not what I consider stock.
Maybe I'm all wet here but I find that my best come out of my best,and my best throw garbage also that I wouldn't dream of putting back into my gene pool, and last but not least I don't make excuses for culls no matter what they are out of,but then that is just me.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 8:58 AM
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JMUrbon
679 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:53 AM
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Scott that is a great post and I couldnt agree with you more. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
1936 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:01 AM
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Thanks Joe, Joe isn't the reason that we inbreed/linebreed and draw the gene pool in tight is so that we can cull out the bad and concentrate on only the best ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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JMUrbon
681 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:13 AM
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Thats certainly why I do it. I have had to bring other birds in in order to keep from getting too bunched up but the ones that worked best for me always came from Hendersons birds and thus were really not that far out from my own. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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0221
135 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:25 AM
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I've seen people breed nonperformers, unflown birds and rolldowns and the like, just to keep a pedigree alive. Most of those guys are the one's that spend all day squeezing pigeons,looking in there eyes, measuring keel bones. I'll fly Mine.
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Oldfart
927 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:49 AM
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Scott, In my case the only access was from birds I purchased from Tony. There are only a few men still keeping rollers in my area and I had not met them. So, the birds I received from Tony were never flown their first year. I breed them and flew out their young, breed their young and flew them out. Each time keeping only the best in the air. Then, the big cut. I kept only the prodgy from one pair and that is the only birds in my loft with the exception of one hen that I paired with the foundation cock. She also was the best of the rest and mated to the foundation cock produced almost as well as the foundation pair. At this point I'm breeding from the foundation pair and a side line with the blood of the other hen but I'm not mixing the two blood lines. I may if I ever feel the need for fresh blood. Only slightly different but I hope different enough. It's as tight a gene pool as my limited knowledge allows, so within this envelope I'm also trying to pair the best to each other. My original sin would have occurred with breeding unflown birds and I'm not trying to defend the practice but there are some sound reasons for it to occur.
Thom
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JMUrbon
682 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:54 AM
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Thom I feel in your situation you went about it the only way you could and the best way you could. Your on the rite track budy. Good luck. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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j .wanless
697 posts
Mar 25, 2009
11:01 AM
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hi all
scott i too agree with what your saying i laugh my head off when i read about mostly you guys when breeding off 15 + 20 pair who they trying to kid.ive bred rollers a long time + have a real tight family of birds.but like scott im struggling to put 9 pair down this year.i like scott have a few pair that im hoping will hit it off.out of 9 pair i can only guarantee that 5 of these pair will produce what i want.so if any of the other pairs lay the same time as my main pairs + my feeders have missed i smash thier eggs + put my main pairs eggs under them .theres not a man on this earth that can put 15 + 20 pairs together + tell me they all produce top class birds.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2779 posts
Mar 25, 2009
11:23 AM
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I know what you mean Scott .I have only one pair to breed from and I could have 5 using the birds I'm flying but I refuse to put anything in my breeding box that it ain't worth a dime in my eyes..discipline not only comes in flying and training birds but having discipline in the breeding pen too.. I could easily breed the hell of those 5 pairs with fosters and have a bunch of birds in no time but I don't want a bunch of birds or culls I want quality that is not easy to get..but find the best and breed your best to it and you be a little closer than breeding out of culls.. set backs is easy ..so I try to stay clear of that road..
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 11:24 AM
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winwardrollers
205 posts
Mar 25, 2009
11:26 AM
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There are to many good starts out there now days of proven families that are ready to go....we just have tons of breeders that want to go down their own road and back track three to five years if not many more years(most never pan out).. to call the birds their own...when in fact they would be further ahead by starting out with the real deal and make their own branch/line/family out of the proven birds.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 11:35 AM
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black_hawk_down
196 posts
Mar 25, 2009
11:34 AM
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well i would say that everybody is using culls for stock because all they have is culls. Building a sound family of rollers takes a lifetime to do. so building on culls for the mean while will eventually help make champions. some guys do find good stock really hard to come by and yea Scott i strongly agree with your statement, "I don't make excuses for culls no matter what they are out of"(Scott).-joe v.
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fhtfire
1891 posts
Mar 25, 2009
12:05 PM
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Scott,
I totally agree with you!
Thom,
I did what you did...I got birds from Tony and Mort and bred them and flew out the youg....I did fly out some from Mort...but they did not cost me anything....the ones from Tony..I just bred from them and flew out the young. That is what you have to do when you are starting out with squeekers.....you basically have to do that when you are starting out with breeders too....I have learned that even if a breeder give you 3 pairs of breeders and tells you how to pair them...well that may have worked for there area, weather, feeding and management style.....you may find that other matings work better for you.
Even with my Mort side....I actually followed a different path then what Mort layed down for me....he was baffled that some of the matings he selected from me did not work out...and when I swapped them..they worked out for me....he had done the same pairings to no avail.....but I come to find out...that his feeding and comp prep is different then mine.....and the weather and altitude in Ogden is different then Sac...I think all the above factored in.
So you did what you had to do.
Once you find your breeders that produce...then you have to be real tough on the offspring.....what I do in my loft is that I never look at the band number until I pick my stock birds from the AIR...once I pick them.....then I look at the band numbers...I never want the parents to influence my choice.
As far as flying young birds when you get them...I dont agree with that....Here is one reason why...I was fortunate enough to get 4 pairs of Tony's breeders and bred them. I held them while he moved from L.A. to MO....I bred close to two kits out of them....I sent the breeders back....and then I had an overfly...lost a whole kit of Ruby Rollers....then I culled and also helped out Steve Bills with some birds....out of all those birds I bred...I only got 2 cocks and 1 hen for stock.....I had picked 2 more hens and they did not pass on the goods....so I lost 20 birds in one day...a couple BOP attacks here and there....and out of all those birds I did not get much...even though I did fly them out and got lucky with some good stock.....I could only imagine if I had bought a kit of birds from Tony for $$ and lost them all.....I would have drank a bottle of cyanide....LOL...so you did what you had to do..you protected your investment and flew the young...I also feel by flying the young...you get to learn more about each pair.
But Scott is dead on....once you find your core birds...NEVER put a bird in the stock pen unless you fly it out......I too have had a bird that was kick ass up to a year and then was stiff as a board.....
But I will admit that I pulled a cock this year with less then a year in the air....The Father had died and He was doing it ...so I said what the hell...I will put him on my best hens from both lines and see what he does.....so there is an exception to the rule
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 12:06 PM
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Oldfart
928 posts
Mar 25, 2009
1:15 PM
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Thanks Guys, Joe I'm learning, slowly but some everyday. Reading helps, this site helps a lot but hands on or in the air teaches the most. I told Tony a long time ago if all I wanted was something pretty in a cage I would ask my bride to to model for me in the loft! Don't misunderstand I think rollers are beautiful but I'm performance, performance!
Paul, with out exceptions there would be no need for rules. I'm holding mine as tight as I can. I don't have the breeding experience to be able to introduce additional blood lines with any confidence on the outcome. I plan to stay within the confines of my loft and only keep the best and a small amount of birds.
Scott, I do want to say I'm in total agreement with your post.
Thom
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 1:57 PM
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pigeon pete
246 posts
Mar 25, 2009
4:46 PM
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Hi, I agree with Scott. I'm not saying my way is the best but, I had some really good kits from around 1999 through to 2004, even though I say so myself.lol
I just checked my breeding records for that period.
The number in brackets is the number of birds that appear in more than one pair (I had one cock paired to 3 different hens in 2002 for example)98 and 99 are different pairs even though the numbers are the same.
1998 4 pair (1)
1999 4 pair (1)
2000 5 pair (1)
2001 7 pairs
2002 10 pairs (4)
2003 5 pair (1).
The numbers of pigeons I rung each year was as follows.
1998 29 (one pair I just bred one late bred from, so all but one bird was bred from 3 pair)
1999 19
2000 20
2001 36
2002 44
2003 42.
Since then my breeding has been on alternate years and a bit hit and miss, and I've lost a lot of birds, but I'm hoping to try and get back in the game in the next couple of years.
Pete
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 4:51 PM
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viper
59 posts
Mar 25, 2009
5:23 PM
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100% agree with Scott fly the guts out of them if thier weak or crashers no heart it will show up but only if you work them.I have stocked 2 pair in 4 years I don't need breeders I need rollers.Blake
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harrison
556 posts
Mar 25, 2009
5:25 PM
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Hi Pete.
Hope all is going well with your breeding?
I read your artical about when you won the world cup.
Good read.
Of course you will get baqck in the game.
You carnt keep a good man down.lol.
Good look for 09 yours in roll harrison uk hull
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1802 posts
Mar 25, 2009
6:19 PM
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Scott,
" I am constantly amazed why so many want to use unflown and culls for stock,and useing every excuse under the sun to do so..."
I,too, am constantly amazed by the regular stream of posts by veteran flyers who, by all rights should know better, yet recommend the practice of breeding from non-performing relatives, usually siblings or nestmates of proven birds, based on pedigree. It seems that I recall that even Pensom recommended the practice at one point in his career in rollers. It makes no sense to me, however. I have to agree with Scott on this one. I have neither the patience nor the kitbox space to keep non-performers around year after year just because they are related to good birds. Heck, I wouldn't be able to cull anything if I followed that practice! Breeding out of culls based on pedigree (and good type, I suppose) makes no sense to me and would seeem to be the very antithesis of the tried and proven method of selecting breedng stock from proven performers in the air, which many of us use in our breeding programs. I am aware that "accidental" situations occur, where a foster pair ends up raising a round of their own birds and one of them turns out to be a good bird, but those are rare occurrences.
Cliff
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jnyce
631 posts
Mar 25, 2009
7:09 PM
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scott i hate to say this but i have to agree with you but at the same token its up to the guy who has to feed the birds everyone is entitles to make there own decisions , now that dont mean you have to agree but who are we to run a man down about the choices he or she makes with there birds
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jerry t
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 7:10 PM
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BA Rollers
212 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:21 PM
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My Take. When a person is relatively new to the hobby of raising and flying rollers, its all a new world to them. The only do's and don't's they encounter are through what others tell them. Very few people, and I mean VERY few people ever come right of the gate swinging at full throttle and have it all figured out in a year or two. I have a stern philosophy when it comes to not only pigeons, but animal husbandry in general. And that is that a person MUST make junk decisions and breed junk in order to LEARN the difference between what is productive and what isn't.
One has to understand that although there are thousands of people who love rollers, the number who have developed "stock sense" are much fewer. Some people never really get it. And that is fine if they are happy.
"Veterans" can only provide sound advice from experience. We cannot expect a person to actually absorb that advice and act upon it, and realize why the results come the way they do, or even how to improve upon what they have experienced.
When a person begins in the hobby, they are generally starting with unproven birds...they are unproven to their ability to acknowledge and understand their potential.
Largely, I do agree with Scott's original post. I've tried it in the past and it didn't work. Never has. But I tried it and learned from it. It allowed me to develop a hands-on improvement to my understanding of these birds and narrow down my decision making tools in regards to what I choose to breed from.
10 years ago I would breed from just about any roller. Today a roller I breed and fly has a very high bar to meet in order to get a shot at breeding. This development in breeding selection didn't come from other's making choices for me by telling what is "right and wrong", but rather from experiencing it myself. Too much time is spent jawing over what is right and wrong, particularly for the new guys. They shouldn't be considering this the new "in thing", they should be out there learning about their birds.
I could tell a guy everything I know about rollers but in my opinion, that doesn't help him much. He has to get out there and make decisions and dissect the information those decisions result in.
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Scott
1937 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:27 PM
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Cliff , it isn't only non performers,it is also those that arn't mentaly and pysicaly sound enough to handle the roll, chronic bumpers ect.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1938 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:31 PM
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Jerry, they have every right to know that they are one of Jerrys special kids , see I'm all about being politicaly correct !!
(scott i hate to say this but i have to agree with you but at the same token its up to the guy who has to feed the birds everyone is entitles to make there own decisions , now that dont mean you have to agree but who are we to run a man down about the choices he or she makes with there birds
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jerry t
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Electric-man
2275 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:41 PM
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Well said Brian! After 5 yrs of mistakes,I think I'm finally heading in a good direction. Time will tell though!
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Val
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jnyce
635 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:49 PM
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well scott are you jealous you couldnt be a jerrys special kid ??? just because ur political dont make you correct , see i also can be politically correct!!
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jerry t
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Scott
1939 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:52 PM
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You got me pegged Jerry
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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jnyce
636 posts
Mar 25, 2009
8:56 PM
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scott i dont understand why people dont like here LOL!!!! NAW REALLY
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jerry t
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winwardrollers
206 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:17 PM
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Oldfart
Like your 928 post..I can see your going to have some good birds in a few years..you stated, "I'm holding mine as tight as I can." in that post which is the very thing I would do but, a bit of advice is don't ever get discouraged and wonder if your on the right track..it take some time to sort out the gene pool..years..some of these nuckle heads think they can sort the genes out in a few generations after crossbreeding. They have some good birds coming along after making the cross but three or four generation down the... Breeder line... they start to have problems.
If you keep you line tight.. a key bird... will pop up to help you further the line. You will know you are on the right track if your birds are slowly getting better over time and will improve past the original birds. You get your bird to that point and I guarantee you will be a happy Roller man. Until then your going to be taking out the trash alot.
Brian your 212 post is down my alley of thinking.
I my be one of Jerry's Kid that scott is talking about because I haven't figured out Petes bracket system yet..I take another look pete.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 9:25 PM
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Bill C
292 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:17 PM
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I think you have some of the best advice given on any day. However I think for some it is better to breed from birds if they are squeakers from a good flyer and they are strong on the wing and you dont want to lose them. I also would not tell someone to breed from culls, but if you breed from squeakers unflown then, sure it is possible to be breeding from a bird you would otherwise never stock.
I am breeding from squeakers from Joe Borges that were never flown due to being strong on the wing. He adviced me to just breed from them since they were stronger than he likes to train. I am slowly picking out birds each year to replace them over time. I see some real good birds out of these birds even though I did not pick them out of the air.
I think everyone would eventually inbreed or line breed if he keeps his birds long enough and picks out the best he can in the air. It is inevitable that over time he would also have related stock.
But I will say it is a roll of the dice for anyone flying rollers to produce good birds, but you have the dice in your favor with your advice to hone in on what is producing your best birds and foster the rest.
A guy could buy 14 squeakers from you and he could breed them instead of flying them and could have 7 pair for the next three years to fly out young and pick the best in the air. That would give him more choices for the best then if he flew out 14 birds and lost one in training and lost two to BOP and and had one cock and two hens worth breeding from. Those three are the best of 14, not the best you raised that year. He could also be off to a good start by selecting birds now for three years and would up his percentage of good birds to breed from each year to make up some good stock birds.
Most guys want breeder birds to start with so they can raise birds, but they are usually not a top stock bird. We all know you have to raise your good birds not buy them. So I always tell them to get squeakers because they could be getting the best bird that guy raised that year and if he saw one that was a real champ he would most likely not be letting it go if it was better than some of his pairs in the breeding stock.
I shouldn't carry on like this but I am begining to think that for the real good rollers we want for our A teams are not so much produced by the roll gene that is bred into them as much as the body type in our rollers. What I mean is its not just a gene we can fix by inbreeding but breeding the right body and charactor in them instead. I know it sounds like I am taking one step forward and four back but I think many birds roll fast and tight but it is the right body that reproduces the consistancy and better birds. I just hope I can prove it some day. This has really all occured to me this winter for the first time. BIll C
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 9:26 PM
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winwardrollers
207 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:47 PM
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Bill C.
You Stated.."I shouldn't carry on like this but I am begining to think that for the real good rollers we want for our A teams are not so much produced by the roll gene that is bred into them as much as the body type in our rollers. I know it sounds like I am taking one step forward and four back but I think many birds roll fast and tight but it is the right body that reproduces the consistancy and better birds. I just hope I prove it some day. BIll C"
You will take alot of crap for saying such a thing..but I'm with you 100%...I discovered the ..type.. I like in rollers two ways... a great mentor and looking at the physical makeup of a #1 roller. All differant size birds roll we all have found that out...but the great birds have a common type in my loft.....There is more than just watching a bird in the air..like most of these guys advocate..if you don't watch body type and many other things you can see on ground your going to be breeding some differant rollers in a few years.
bwinward
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Bill C
295 posts
Mar 25, 2009
9:57 PM
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Bwinward, thanks for the advice and encouragement. I wasnt sure anyone would understand me. But you seem to, The thing was I was working on getting rid of lice and thought this year I would dip all my birds in permectrine water instead of the ways I had been doing it. As I dipped each bird in the water the solution really penetraded through the feathers kind of like dish soap. I had to dip them on a sunny day because it really soaked the feathers like a wet cat that looks big and fluffy until it hits the bath pan and then its a skinny wet cat. I dont think I would have noticed this except the birds were wet and it was as if I was just feeling the breast and body with out feathers.
I had noticed by handling all the birds that I had many different body types on these birds. Especially in the kit boxes. Even when fed up and not flying I had some very thin and narrow birds and others that were like small homers. Even in the A team I had some that were not built like I thought they all were. So I accidentally came across this and it has been stuck in my mind ever since. I had handled good rollers before but it was not getting through to me as it did when I dipped the birds in water with lice soluiton. It was a real eye opener for me to focus on now. Bill C
Last Edited by on Mar 25, 2009 10:00 PM
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RodSD
205 posts
Mar 25, 2009
10:50 PM
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The answer is simple: It is easier to breed garbage, harder to breed good birds and hardest to breed best birds.
Now having said that if you are a beginner in roller business, you probably don't know how your birds are compared to good/best birds. You might think that your birds are good until you see someone who actually has a real good birds. Then your birds were probably garbage!
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Pararoller
81 posts
Mar 26, 2009
12:33 AM
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Fancier, i'm new to and only abackyard flyer but still want some head turners and burners this won't b easy i rookies breed any birds that have the potential but not quite breedbest to the best and with this u b lucky to get a pair or 2 at the most set ur self at a standard 30+ and deep wit great velocity only and nothing else
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pigeon pete
247 posts
Mar 26, 2009
3:56 AM
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Hi Bwinward,
To explain, in 1998 for example I bred from 4 pair.
One of these pair had a bird transfered from another pair hence the brackets (1)
So, I broke up one pair partway through the season and paired it up with another bird.
I bred from 3 pairs for most of the season, but bred one round off one of the cocks with a young hen that had showed potential. So basicaly I bred 28 birds from 3 pair.
With regards to the body type feathering/ vesus the ro gene I think this is a false argument whichever side you take.
It's like the old nature versus nurture argument, one is not mutualy exclusive of the other.
You have to have them both in the right measure.
You can get away with having a roller with the right amount of roll/control balance, and the right character and strength, and everything else that a bird needs to be a good roller, even if it has too much feather, and is the 'wrong' body type, but it will be the exception.
Correct body type and feathering can be found on all types of pigeons of differeing rolling ability, or in non rolling birds.
What we need to aim for is the all round ideal.
The bird with all the mental genetic make-up to roll to the ideal, needs a good body and feathers to work within.
I know it sounds too obvious, but to be brutaly honest on forums like this if you are not very obvious then too many inexperienced fanciers can be led astray, and will be breeding predominently for body/feather type, or eye color or wahtever, to the detriment of the other attributes.
This is what makes roller breeding so challenging, having to breed for so many traits all at the same time.
Also the number of pairs you breed can depend on how you start the hoby. If you start with 2 good stock pairs then you breed from 2 pair, but if you start with a kit of YB's and breed them, you will need to trial breed from more pairs to find the best producers.
Once you have found the right lines then the number of birds you need to breed from will decrease.
Later on once you have good estabilished lines and quality in depth throughout the loft, you can then safely breeed from more pairs.
Pete
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Scott
1940 posts
Mar 26, 2009
8:49 AM
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If you have solid stock the type should already be set,now what I do see within my own birds is birds that fit the part of what my best look like.
This is where size, feather,feather type,balance, expression all fit into a all fit into more a set pattern.
Last night I picked up a little hen that has not came into the roll yet and thought " how can this bird not hammer" she fit the profile of what "my" best in the air look and handle like,and it evolved more around type of feather ,size,balance and expression far more so than physical type.
As for that bird that I refered to, now has to proove that she has the motor to match,if she doesn't she is nothing more than a Porce with a hamster on wheel under the hood.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 26, 2009 8:52 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1803 posts
Mar 26, 2009
8:57 AM
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Brain,Pete,
Great posts. There is, obviously, no cookie-cutter recipe for success with rollers. Quality performance is a multi-faceted phenomenon. Too many times, especially in the early stages of our programs, we must choose between the lesser of the evils and work with the best birds that we can come up with. Not many guys have bunches of pairs of breeders that are perfect in every aspect.
Cliff
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2782 posts
Mar 26, 2009
9:35 AM
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Hmmm that got me thinking now even in NBRC auction you can get rip off..and I always thought that is the only place you can get good birds.I never thought of that one..but that can be true especially breeding for these early wonders just for the sake of winning in competition then to be rid of in auctions...or sold..that's why its good to know the person you are getting your birds from....
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
Last Edited by on Mar 26, 2009 9:47 AM
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gotspin7
2346 posts
Mar 26, 2009
6:54 PM
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Fellas, good read. Thanks for sharing..
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Sal Ortiz
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J_Star
1936 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:49 AM
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Scott, very good and friendly response to my post. It is appreciated but using the word “sell” was not appropriate. However, I am not trying to sell anything and there are several ways to skin the cat and I chose a concept of skinning the cat due to the environment that I live in. Around here, I am very lucky if I get three rounds out of a pair in any best case scenario. That if I have 100% hatchability and the birds lay like clock work.
Look around and you will see others who have more than one A team in there backyard. For example, look at Aubrey’s fly record last season!! He had two kits flown and both scored over 1100 points each. Those are not just A teams, those are AAA teams in my book, don’t you agree? His philosophy is also quality thru quantity…now that speaks volume.
You also need to remember that not everybody as advanced as you is in their program to be criticized for the way they do things. It is a valid point you make about breeding so many birds just to breed but as I responded to you that it is not a clear cut and generalize everyone in that category. You speak of mentally strong birds continuously and adamantly but you also said in many occasions that your birds tends to be on the stiff side…what does that tell everybody when you read the fine print!!!
You said it is very difficult to recognize what pair is giving you what when you have a large number of breeders. That could be true or can not. The reason is that with a computer program such as the one I developed for myself would lets me select the top performers (1 thru 4 in performance) and their parents and the nest box or any other piece of information deemed necessary, sorted by nest box (since a pair owns their nest box forever) and I can tell you which pair are producing the best crop for me within a time frame so that my eyes don’t lose sight of the ball.
See Scott, there are may roads lead to Rome, my friend…and I understand there is no short cut but I believe there is a fast highway. In several years, I might come back and say that I was wrong but looking at others of how they do things gives me the opportunity to try things out of the box.
One of the reasons, I spend well over $1000 a year and travel to other states for the NBRC conventions is to give me the opportunity to see how others far away from me do things and what makes them successful so that I can not be blinded with the way things are done around me just because it is just the way it is.
There are many pros and cons in this sport and it is our job to sort thru them and take out what will suite the fancier best and run with it his way as long as common sense, sound logic and good judgment are applied. You will never go wrong applying those three pillars in any Andover you take…Always.
Jay
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Scott
1943 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:18 AM
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Jay, all that I was pointing out above is on your breeding theory on more pairs is that I allready been there , and it was a ton of work with little payoff,and never did my breeding program move forward, I have also seen that played out by countless others.
I am now set up where there is far less work and I am able to concentrate on watching and analizing the birds in the kits.
As for the stiffs,funny my birds don't have a reputaion as stiffs (the good ones).
Nor do I remember mentioning anything about it here or any where else unless I was mentioning a particular day or fly, stiffs are culls, it is that simple.
But on that thought I am far more likely to cull a bird for being a stiff than it being a retard of the breed,I've done it both ways, I'll take the stable in control side any day,again been there done that until experiance showed me different.
Jay, I don't want birds rolling because they are controled by the roll,like I said earlier I want mentaly strong birds loaded with the roll impulse, Jay everything in your first post I have done, I think that over all we are in different books, enjoy and have fun.
(You speak of mentally strong birds continuously and adamantly but you also said in many occasions that your birds tends to be on the stiff side…what does that tell everybody when you read the fine print!!!)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 10:07 AM
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Dave Szab
247 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:59 AM
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Scott,
Good posts, and I agree 100%! That's the way that I do things also, and I have made the same observations at my loft that you have. Quality, NOT quantity is the way to go. If you select the right breeders, you don't have to breed out of a large number of pairs. Your percentages of good birds go up, you can breed fewer birds, fly fewer young bird kits, and build up a solid competition team.
You have to find a way to keep the number of young birds down, so that you can spend more time flying and observing them, without flying multiple kits every single day. That does nothing but make you a feeding station for the hawks, and you cannot give the young birds the attention that they need in order to give them a chance to develop into their potential. Not letting them develop properly, or not observing them properly, makes a catch-22 situation because you then make decisions about the youngsters that may not be true, which then causes you to make decisions in the stock loft that may not be correct. This type of management sends you backward, not forward.
Since 1999, I have only bred out of no more than 8 pair, I fly out no more than 3 rounds for myself, and I keep no more than 40 flyers, but usually closer to 30, over the winter. Using these small numbers I have been able to do very well in competition, and not flying multiple kits everyday has kept the hawks away. It can be done, you just have to start with the right birds, and make a committment to it.
Dave Szabatura
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winwardrollers
209 posts
Mar 27, 2009
9:28 AM
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Quality not quantity ..or.. Quanitiy looking for quality. There are benifits to both it gets down to what you are; setup for, feed bill, time spent.
bwinward
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Scott
1944 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:04 AM
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Dave we talked about this at length last time you were here, until I circled the wagons around my finest producers of quality birds my breeding program never moved forward,basicly because I didn't what the hell I was doing so I just shotgunned it.
These days when I try a bird in stock I take it very serious and in doing so I'm thinking years ahead on what such a bird can do for my breeding program. for me there is no debate here as I have made about every mistake there is,the biggest of all was thinking it was going to be easy,it isn't,at least not for me.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 10:20 AM
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J_Star
1937 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:21 AM
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Scott and Dave, very well and good healthy discussion. We all made our point of view straight and to the point. It makes good read for others and they can draw a conclusion to what might work for them best based on their strategy and environment. Just please don’t generalize groups just because a failure of some others whether due to faults of their own or not. In regard to the stiff thingy, my apology if it sounded degrading to your birds which was not intended, but when I run across past post from you which stating those phrases made by you, I will bring the threads to the front. I appreciate your input and shared experiences.
Jay
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 10:23 AM
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Scott
1945 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:37 AM
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Jay I didn't take the stiff thing as degrading, my birds have prooven themselfs in both major flys more than once and have held their own in a state of stiff competition,make no mistake of my position,a stiff is a cull.
As another thought thought if you are after birds with solid mental strength, you better be flying the dog shit out of them to make sure that motor is being passed along or you most certainly will end up with stiffs and straight flyers.
But you take a bird that has solid mental fortitude with solid roll impulse and you have a bird that will commit to the roll with the confidence that makes a bird first class verses a bonehead fighting the roll or fighting to come out of such.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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J_Star
1938 posts
Mar 27, 2009
11:07 AM
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Scott, I agree.
jay
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J_Star
1939 posts
Mar 27, 2009
11:42 AM
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Scott, from trying to digest your point view, which I did for several years, you assume that everyone has a golden pair or two in their loft, which is not true. Those golden pairs in this hobby of ours like winning the state lottery which equates to one in a million in our hobby. What is sad is when a fancier circle the wagon around a pair thinking it is a golden pair and turn out to be not.
However, circling the wagon is an excellent way to build a family of outstanding stock, but it is not the only way. There are others that might suite other fanciers better. You hear the term best to best all the time, why!! Simply because not everyone has golden pairs in their loft and if they do, they soon break up the pair to try them on others to see if they have “champions” in their loft which will set them couple seasons back.
If I want to circle the wagon, my loft will become flowery (trutus shell and blue check white flight) which I refuse to have those colors take over my loft. You can harness a healthy loft with many BR colors without sacrificing the diversity of the loft.
The hobby to me is not just to fly BR and win points, but also to enjoy outstanding performers in a verity of shape and colors. It is just a mater of taste.
Too bad you couldn’t join us in the Texas convention, I had a lengthy conversation with Aubrey and his son Jay and I portrayed the student rather than a teacher to pick their brain and what a delight of insight an information they provided. You can feel the honesty and integrity those southern men enjoy. One thing about me is I am not afraid to try different things that I think will advance my knowledge and well being as an individual in a hobby or in society.
Jay
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 11:42 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3346 posts
Mar 27, 2009
12:27 PM
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Jay,
Aubrey and Jay have their own system and ideas that have not been clouded by bull shit. They fly the very young with older birds and it works; they don't feed down for competition; they do not tolerate bumpers or early downers; kitting is paramont with them no matter how well they perform....if they don't kit they are gone; they rarely cull in the first year of the pigeons life; they eat what they cull; they eat crayfish and bodang; Jay is the one that started the whole Thibodeaux show and if he would fly more often he may be able to kick his father's ass(LOL).....maybe; and they are some of the most generous people I have ever met. He is the first to match up quanity with quality for me. In other words, Aubrey believes you have to produce a lot of birds to find 20 worth keeping......"you get quality from quantity".
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 12:33 PM
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J_Star
1940 posts
Mar 27, 2009
12:44 PM
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Nick, I was wondering when you were going to join in. Thanks. You said in a paragraph what I was trying to say in a complete post.
Jay
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JMUrbon
683 posts
Mar 27, 2009
2:00 PM
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Nick I will respectfully disagree with you and the quality from quantity. You do not have to breed a 100 birds to get 20 good. I have been doing this for years and I have never raised 100 birds in a season. Not only have I never but I never will either. I am not saying you cant do that but I am sayng that I dont feel that it is the only way to be successful with rollers. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
1946 posts
Mar 27, 2009
5:29 PM
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Here is something to kick around ,"I" can't breed what I consider 20 first class pigeons that belong in my A-team out of a 100.
Now come late Fall I think that I got em coming on but by the time it is said and done I have only have a mere handfull by late the following Spring.
Now that handful is truely first class and solid as rocks but it is still only a handful all the same , wish I could say that I had em coming out my ears and that it was as easy for me as what I hear and read,but it would be a lie.
Talking to Heine a few years ago,one of the greatest,he told me that he gets maybe six of what he considers truely good ones a year, thats right, six , chew on that one LOL.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 5:30 PM
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Scott
1947 posts
Mar 27, 2009
5:38 PM
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Jay points don't impress me in the least when I don't know the judge and what kind of judge they are,and honestly I get real suspicious when the points get goofy like that. I'm sure that he flys some fine birds and he has prooven himself to be a fine flyer, breed em by the hundreds bud and you will surely have excellent teams in every box frm the sounds of it,good luck !!
(Look around and you will see others who have more than one A team in there backyard. For example, look at Aubrey’s fly record last season!! He had two kits flown and both scored over 1100 points each. Those are not just A teams, those are AAA teams in my book, don’t you agree? His philosophy is also quality thru quantity…now that speaks volume.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 5:49 PM
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