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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
How To Become A Color Breeder
How To Become A Color Breeder
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cballlofts
63 posts
Apr 18, 2009
8:22 AM
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Scott,
Well said. There are many, many, Guys listening to what You say! We cannot allow this pollution in Our Lofts, if We want to preserve the Breed. They talk about how many of "Them" that are out there, but over all, They are a very small minority. That is why They try so hard to sway the new Guys. We All thank You, for always being There to defend the Breed, no matter how they attack, or what They say.
Chuck
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2009 8:29 AM
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jnyce
672 posts
Apr 18, 2009
9:38 AM
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i have said this before scott has alot to offer this sport and there are people whose listening but i think its his approach he could be less aggressive when making a point like calling other people birds name that they are not i personally appreciate scott he has answered some of my post some good and some that pissed me off but everything is not for everybody when reading some of his post it could be mistaking as an attack and thats just to be real
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jerry t
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0221
192 posts
Apr 18, 2009
7:10 PM
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I have a question. Did this, let them be pure start from the begining of the Pensom Imports or the evolution of the birmingham roller? I also enjoy color, I have blue check, red check and tortoise shell. Bred for perfomance, My project is to get more good one's each year. I quess My hats off to You guys, who's birds are so good that you can add color.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1873 posts
Apr 18, 2009
7:29 PM
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0221,
It appears to be mostly the guys with "Pensom" lines. If you pay attention, you will also see them criticize other BR families, like the Jaconettes, when they get tired and bored of attacking color birds.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1874 posts
Apr 18, 2009
7:35 PM
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PS to my 1872 post.....
I attacked the breed? I denied the existence of the breed? Hmmmmmm. Really? That's news to me. As far as I can recall, I have asked a lot of questions....I have posted what others, including Pensom, have said about them.....I believe that I said the Birmingham Roller is a breed defined by its performance, referencing Pensom who said that a Birmigham Roller and a tumbler could occupy the same nest. Some men do give more weight to pedigrees and lineage, which is where I place little weight with regard to their ability to spin with quality and speed. But to each his own.
So, Scott, I twisted your arm to start this thread with lies and deceit? And you want us to believe this is a Spoof as you put it? Hehehehe.
I don't fly these birds to please anyone but the judge and myself. When you are the judge , then I will care about what you think, until them ....... Not so much.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2009 7:36 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1875 posts
Apr 19, 2009
1:43 PM
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0221
Let me correct something here. I didn't "ADD COLOR" to my birds. Just like you did not add color (red, blue, spread etc.) to yours, I did not ADD indigo. Those colors/factors were in our birds when we got them.
I do not suggest to anyone they try to add something they know nothing about. I would estimate there are maybe 5-10 breeders, maybe less, who are working genetically with birds to introduce rare colors, who know what they are doing and do it by the book to produce a bird at least 15/16 pure and performs to standard. My hat is off to them also.
This "keep them pure" controversy got so involved that at one time some roller clubs (Pensom clubs)had rules that you could'nt even keep another variety of rollers on your property. By variety, I mean rollers that were non-Pensom. These purity discussions are nothing new, but there is always some drama going on in the roller world somewhere. It could be about colors/factors, it could be about different families of rollers, it could be about judging/scoring/fly rules. It could be as simple as the name of the NBRC finals fly, but somebody is always disgruntled over something or somebody. Most of the time , most of these controversies are limited to these roller email chat rooms, you seldom hear about this stuff anywhere else. Think about it.... Where do these molehills become mountains?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 6:09 AM
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0221
205 posts
Apr 19, 2009
2:53 PM
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Cliff, I enjoy the hobby, I've been with pigeons along time.I've met some cool people. I'll probably finish up with the one's I have. Trying to make them better each year is challenge enough for Me. I'm
sure My birds will all be red check and blue check before long. Its funny because they started off red and blue balds and badges, A grizzle and tort here and there, but the best one's have turned out red check. My new favorite color if you know what I mean. It doesn't bother Me reading all the B.S. on here, I have to do something between flys. Cliff thanks for your response. Al.
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rollerman132
340 posts
Apr 19, 2009
3:31 PM
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How are these exotic colored rollers genetically? Can they hold their own or do they need a genetic transfusion every few years to keep them rolling? Can I put six pairs of toy stencils together and build a family over next 10 to 15 years?
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Scott
2054 posts
Apr 19, 2009
3:53 PM
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Sure you can LOL LOL
(Can I put six pairs of toy stencils together and build a family over next 10 to 15 years? )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
341 posts
Apr 19, 2009
4:17 PM
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It’s just hard for me to believe that the color gene from that other breed can be taken without dragging the rest of its genetic makeup with it. A guy I know has a few of those colored birds, and always breeds them with red or blue checks from another family, why? Under intense inbreeding would those non-rolling genes from that other breed start to intensify, and produce birds that cant roll? Humm, the world will never know lol
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1876 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:15 AM
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rollerman,
Most assuredly, the world will definitely know. My line of these birds have been intensely line-bred since the eighties, by James Turner, Jay Yandle and myself. Don't you think that, after 20+ years, if your proposition were true, that we would be seeing it by now? Sorry, it ain't happenin'. I'll be the first to let you know if it does, because I will be flying another family.
Cliff
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Scott
2058 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:29 AM
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Bullshit,now you are just plain fibbing
(Most assuredly, the world will definitely know. My line of these birds have been intensely line-bred since the eighties, by James Turner, Jay Yandle and myself. Don't you think that, after 20+ years,)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 6:30 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1877 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:34 AM
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rollerman132
I have no experience with Toy stencils at all. I know it is a very difficult factor to work with and has a much more involved genetic combination than Almond for instance. I have been working with Indigo/Andalusian for a few years now, and it was used for the last 50-70 years without any "genetic transfusions", that I know of. You have to remember that you are talking about a genetic factor like grizzle (which was brought in by a Tippler outcross) but Toy Stencil is much more complicated. You know grizzle has many different expressions on different-colored birds, and it changes again when found in the double-factored birds or stork-patterned grizzle. You should have enough experience with these to know that a genetic transfusion is not necessary to keep them rolling.... If the breeder chooses the right birds from the start. I would surmise that the Toy Sencil factor works like any other rare factor......... like spread, grizzle, almond, and any other factor that changes the color or pattern of the feather, jsut a bit more complicated because it takes a number of color genes to express itslef properly. I seriously doubt there are very many competition rollers that are expressing toy stencil in the air today. It jsut hasn't been around long enough. Maybe 1/10 of one % being flown... if that many. How many have you personally seen? How was the performance? What did you think of them? Do you have to infuse your rollers every few years to keep them rolling? I bet you don't. I know I don't. If you want to talk about Indigo, Dominate Opal, or Reduced, the rare colors that have been around in the air for decades, I can tell you that they, definitely DO NOT need a "genetic transfusion every few years", as you put it, to keep them rolling. I line-breed them just like you would any other good line of rollers. But I think you will find, in general, that the rare factors work the same way the non-rare factors.... They effect the pigment found in the feathers. They add colors/patterns to our rollers. Sorry I wasn't more help with the Stencil...
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1878 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:36 AM
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Scott,
I know that you put a lot of stock in pedigrees. How would you like for me to bring some pedigrees to Sacremento for you to review at your leisure that will prove my point?
Cliff
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Scott
2059 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:49 AM
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A lot of stock in Pedigrees ?? why do they only go back to the 80s ?
What do you consider tight inbreeding ?
In the 80s Turner still called the mutts side projects, where do all of these other mutts fit in and how ? and who has "not" had to cross them ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
387 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:52 AM
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Cliff,
Like you I have no experience with toy stencil. Don't really care for the dipped cone look. Have been working with indigo/andalusian for the past 4/5 years and I agree, there is no infusion of roll necessary. My indigo came from a bird of the Turner blood line. Line breed them like any other family and you will see plenty of spin. Being a partial dominate, indigo will always express itself if present. May be hard to detect in reds and recessives but it is there if you look hard enough
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
2060 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:53 AM
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No one yet has been able to get them to stand on their own, no one ! if you know someone, name them, other than some backyard flyers there are only a few serious flyers that have such birds and not a one doesn't also have the real deal on the property,including yourself.
(Indigo, Dominate Opal, or Reduced, the rare colors that have been around in the air for decades, I can tell you that they, definitely DO NOT need a "genetic transfusion)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 7:10 AM
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Scott
2061 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:13 AM
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Joe, the Andys are the only that it may be possible with , they are mentaly and physicaly stronger and didn't have to keep going back to the cross, I have seen a few good ones also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1879 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:18 AM
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Scott,
Surely you cannot be that ignorant! You can repeat your mantra, "No one yet has been able to get them to stand on their own, no one !" forever and ever, as I am sure you will..... It will not make your delusion have any more of a basis in reality......Geesh! I have presented the facts about my family. You can whine and snivel all day that white is black, but it won't change the fact of the matter, my friend.
The pedigrees go back to the 80s because that's when the family was actually created and the cross occurred. We have record of the crossed roller, the one with the color, but it was always culled after the first generation. Beyond that is the pedigree of the Pensom and Lloyd Thompson birds, which, to my knowledge, Turner or Don Simpson did not get.
Yes, I have had a roller or two from other families on my property, as many roller men do, as side projects. They are not bred into my pure Turner stuff where my higher percentages of competition birds are coming from. I have a Plona hen on my property left over from my 2004 venture with Pensoms. She was the only decent bird I got and she flew in several years of competitions. She is sort of sentimental to me, but there is none of her blood in any of my competition team. I tried a few Starleys for the sake of comparison of the performance...as you know from reading, I gave her away and all her young to a RPDC list member. I also bred 30 birds of Rick Schoening's stock for the sake of comparison of performance and handling. I have two birds of those whose performance is what I consider to be comparable to the Turners in speed, frequency, and quality. I was just dissappointed in the high number of problem birds and the low percentages. I gave the breeders and the remaining kit birds to Clay to play with. He won't like their tendency to sky walk, though.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 7:31 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1880 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:24 AM
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rollerman132
Did your "friend" have toy stencil? I know lots of good breeders who use two families, bred those families straight but cross the families for the "battle cross" kit birds. But your know, come to think about it , they were using families they said were pure Birmingham Rollers. LOL! I have no doubt the same breeding strategy would hold promise for a family of 100% pure Birmingham Rollers and a family of Birmingham Rollers that are NOT 100% pure, crossed together, but that is not my persoanl philosphy. The ROLL IS THE ROLL, everything else falls into place. For me, I myself, had few positive results with birds thought to be 100% pure. These Birmingham rollers that are less than 100% pure seem to be doing fine for me. But you call me in 10-15 years to check on how I am doing!
Then there are guys that cross two families together and build their own family. That is also rather common among many in the hobby, just not my cup of tea.
I guess the science of genetics is all wrong in the concept of that 15/16 is genetically pure enough to breed true, as far as some of you guys are concerned. I kinda think the books on genetics may be a better source of information than "your friends" experience, though. But you feel free to believe anything you please.
Cliff
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Scott
2062 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:35 AM
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Joe, was just thinking about the Andys, most do have problems with many of them,landing early, kitting or just plain falling apart,which is why they cross them, how long and what kind of breeding have you done with those ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
520 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:36 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Careful Scott, You just broke the "Purist" corporate veil...LOL..I would also include the indigo along with the andalusion..
Joe, the Andys are the only that it may be possible with , they are mentaly and physicaly stronger and didn't have to keep going back to the cross, I have seen a few good ones also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2063 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:37 AM
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Who has Cliff ??
(Surely you cannot be that ignorant! You can repeat your mantra, "No one yet has been able to get them to stand on their own, no one !" forever and ever, as I am sure you will...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1881 posts
Apr 20, 2009
8:19 AM
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James Turner, Tony Roberts, Jay Yandle, Dominic Cirri, Myself, David Strait, Ty Coleman, Alex Hamilton, Gary Roberts, Jay Knepp.......and the list goes on and on and on...
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 8:34 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1882 posts
Apr 20, 2009
8:40 AM
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Scott said, "Joe, was just thinking about the Andys, most do have problems with many of them,landing early, kitting or just plain falling apart,which is why they cross them, how long and what kind of breeding have you done with those?" I don't see those kinds of problems with my family. I probably culled fewer than five birds out of 150 for non-kitting or landing early. I have had much greater problems with families of "pure" BR that I have flown and handled. One family had so many tree sitters, house sitters, non-flyers, non-kitters that over half were culled! Personally, I wouldn't work with a family of rollers with that high of a percentage of problem birds. Maybe if Scot would define his terms first. Please explain as clearly as possible : "Stand on their own" "Real Deal" Then maybe I can see WTF he is talking about. Smile!
Oh, and we don't "have to keep going back to the cross". That's just Scott repeating his mantra. Let's hear it, Scott....Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 9:22 AM
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Scott
2065 posts
Apr 20, 2009
8:43 AM
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James Turner and Roberts never did anything other than make a video, don't know anything about Cirro (who ? nobody) Cliff Ball you have yet to proove youself, but you don't have just the mutz either and you are breeding countless numbers to try to proove something,not exactly the mark of being solid, David Strait never did anything (nobody) Ty never did anything (new,nobody,nice kid though) Alex, don't know much about his pigeons , doesn't he fly Roe ? ,Gary Roberts (your puppet master,less than nobody),Yandle, also Cook Jacs and crosses with, Knepp (who ? nobody)
Does the kiddie 11 bird fly ring a bell with some of these ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 8:50 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1883 posts
Apr 20, 2009
8:49 AM
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rollerman 132,
You bring to mind, an interesting experience that a veteran roller flyer, one who is near and dear to all our hearts, had.....where a highly inbred family, highly respected performance family, a family probably 100% pure Birmingham Roller family (Neibles, I believe) with tons of solid pure rolling genes, where two breeders were bought for a very nice chunk of change. And guess what? He was not pleased with his results. So from that story, I would suggest to you that maybe something else is more important in this equation than merely "intense inbreeding", though I practice it myslef. But then maybe I got the story wrong or it never happened.... The world may never know, but I have a sneaky feeling that the handling of birds plays a bigger part in this than anyone really knows. JMHO
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 8:52 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2881 posts
Apr 20, 2009
9:02 AM
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Cliff let me ask you a question of these turner birds did you ever compete with them lets say a kit of 20 birds straight turner and if yes how well did they do?
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1884 posts
Apr 20, 2009
9:14 AM
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Ralph,
That's all I ever compete with...have done so since 2005. I have been fortunate enough to win my region for the last four major flys (National Championship and World Cup) for the last two years. Our region is pretty tough...two Master Flyers, one World Cup Champions, three NBRC National Champs, so that tells me something about my birds. A flyer with "problem birds that are unstable, don't kit, land early, and don't hold up", as Scott says, might get lucky in one fly, but not four in a row. Their record speaks for itself...much louder than Scott's imagination and mantra. The best I have done (and please pardon my memory) is, I believe, 3rd in the finals of the National Championship and 12th or 13th in the World Cup finals. The trick for me, now, is trying to keep them on point during the short interval between the regionals and the finals. I'm just glad I have had the practice! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 9:19 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2882 posts
Apr 20, 2009
9:21 AM
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Cliff I be honest with you if I have done well and won with those rollers .. I wouldn't give them up for nothing neither.. keep up the good work...
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
388 posts
Apr 20, 2009
9:46 AM
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Scott,
Haven't had any problem with the indigo/andy line as far as kitting, landing early, etc. Not yet getting the % of good spinners that I desire but every year that goes up. Am inbreeding and line breeding them as I do all my birds. Father/daughter, mother/son, half brother/half sister and tightening the gene pool. I think it will take me another 2 to 3 years to really see how it works out. I have 1 three yr old Andy and 2 two yr old indigo bars in my A team now, hope to have more next fall. Have raised some nice ones already this year.
Mike, the indigos and the Andys are the same blood. Andy is just indigo on black(spread blue).
I'm off to DC for 2 days at the puzzle factory but I'll be up on my Blackberry
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 9:51 AM
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Scott
2066 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:01 AM
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Cliff , you may want to have someone fix that 3rd in the 20 bird finals, you aren't listed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1887 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:20 AM
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Scot,
Well, they are from outside of your little world out there in California, so I would not expect you to know anyting about them, as you do not, I see. Seeing that you, primarily, just wanted the opportunity to disrespect other roller men, don't ask me for any names again. You can't handle it. I should know you by now, but every once in awhile, I mistake you for being legitimate. Sorry that won't happen again.
But just for the grins, James and Tony were competing in the Southeast, when Scotty was still on the teat. They quit flyng competition because of roller politics. Dominic Cirri, from Maryland, has been in rollers longer than Scott and I combined, and is active in judging competitions all over the East Coast. Ty won his region and competed in the finals last year....Alex's record speaks for itself....Gary, too has grown tired of the political bullshite....Jay Yandle won the NBRC National Championship with primarily straight Turner birds and a couple of Cook-crossed-to-Turners....Jay Knepp competes every year and has scored well with these birds....Dave Strait won his region the first two years that he competed in the NBRC National Championship. I have seen his birds fly and he has the real deal. He no longer competes because he does not want to be associated with men like Scott. Like so many, he mistakenly believes that most competitors behave the way that Scott does toward their fellow roller men...like Clay who gave away his browns to avoid the intimidation....and like Rick Schoening who gave away his opals for the same reason. Some guys just quit competition...some guys quit rollers...some guys quit color rollers...but then that's all part of your agenda isn't it, Scott? This trend I describe is no accident, gentlemen.
You see, what you fail to understand about the men in this hobby, some of whom are on this form, is that most any of them would be extremely pleased at their accomplishemnt with their birds to place second or third or to win their region and to make it to the finals...in either the 11-bird or the 20-bird. When you invalidate and disrespect other men who have been successful at achieving these accomplishments, you are also invalidating and disrespecting the goals and aspriations of every roller man, including those on this forum. But it is obvious that people do not matter to you....it's all about your agenda. That's what makes you behavior so repulsive. Too bad. You have so much more to offer the sport.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 10:33 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
524 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:29 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Mike, the indigos and the Andys are the same blood. Andy is just indigo on black(spread blue).
I'm off to DC for 2 days at the puzzle factory but I'll be up on my Blackberry
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Joe this is the bird I am talking about on the other thread. Is this a dilute Andalusion?
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
525 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:34 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Cliff, I would be happy with any score next month..LOL Below is a picture of a pair of Cook banded birds I picked up this winter..
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Scott
2067 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:34 AM
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Why do I smell Gary Roberts on this one and some of the others ? Gary you are like a little school girl,why don't you come out from the shadows you little snake ?
Not sure why this is being drawn off topic but I will tell the story as there is something to be learned here.
Around 9 years ago I bout through the W/C auction a pair of birds bred by Monty Nieble , the hen flew his his last W/C winning team prior to his death which was a few days later , himself and the Judge (Heine) were in a horific accident.
The cock came out of one of his other teams, to make a long story short the pair didnt pan out and they became the most expensive pair of fosters in history (I didn't make excuses for them), but I did end up with a pair from Ray Lewis out of Washington that something could have been worked into, the prodigy of these went to Hawaii, I later learned that the pair that was supposed to go to the W/C auction was not the pair that was sent, but that is another story.
As for the highly inbreed, anyone that knows these birds knows that linebreeding was the main key behind this family and not inbreeding.
As for the "sneaky" suspicion that handling played in,maybe and maybe not, I have found that the cream rises to the top regardless.
(rollerman 132,
You bring to mind, an interesting experience that a veteran roller flyer, one who is near and dear to all our hearts, had.....where a highly inbred family, highly respected performance family, a family probably 100% pure Birmingham Roller family (Neibles, I believe) with tons of solid pure rolling genes, where two breeders were bought for a very nice chunk of change. And guess what? He was not pleased with his results. So from that story, I would suggest to you that maybe something else is more important in this equation than merely "intense inbreeding", though I practice it myslef. But then maybe I got the story wrong or it never happened.... The world may never know, but I have a sneaky feeling that the handling of birds plays a bigger part in this than anyone really knows. JMHO
Cliff )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 11:02 AM
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Scott
2068 posts
Apr 20, 2009
10:55 AM
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Cliff, I am sure they are all great guys I just have no repect for mongrels , no secret there.
I was thinking national core flyers , you bring up backyard flying yocals,my bad.
Scot,
Well, they are from outside of your little world out there in California, so I would not expect you to know anyting about them, as you do not, I see. ----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
526 posts
Apr 20, 2009
11:08 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott, Your not going to be able to dissuade newbies from getting the birds they decide to get. It seems we all have gone through the I got to try that one or this one stage before..Heck Im just getting back at the birds again and I have quite a mix of families at the time..As far as keeping them "pure" your going to have to be happy keeping them that way in your loft and some of the others..As far as I am concerned the changes were made for the most part way back..
I would hate to see some newbie spend the money I have on birds to buy some "Pure Breds" and have them not turn out....You could have a whole gang of newbies hounding you..LOL
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Scott
2070 posts
Apr 20, 2009
11:13 AM
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Mike, most of the solid lofts around the country are "not" polluted, what makes you think that they are ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
528 posts
Apr 20, 2009
11:36 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott, There are some colors I had not seen before my exit in the early 90's like opal and pencil. I did see indigo and andalusions, although I remember us calling them "gun barrel blue", we did not know what they were. To tell you the honest truth not many in the area really paid any attention to color.. I was quite shocked to see all the antagonism over this subject upon my return... I got all my birds from oldtimers back in those days, most all of these guys are dead and gone..I was actually given two entire lofts of birds, one came out of Hudson wisconsin and the other out of Lacrosse, MN..These guys were both 80 some years old when I got them..These were really good stuff and I wish I still had them..The point is there were a lot of colors many I just called the goofy looking cock or goofy looking hen..One new color to me is the dilute andalusion, I had never seen this before. I was not breeding for it either so that is probably why...Unless there truly are guys that kept Pensoms birds pure for all this time, I think its a crap shoot. We know colors dont make winners just as we know pedigrees dont make winners..How do we know that Pensoms birds were totally pure? Cause he said so? myself I am more inclined to call Pensoms a strain..His strain..
Mike, most of the solid lofts around the country are "not" polluted, what makes you think that they are ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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0221
211 posts
Apr 20, 2009
11:46 AM
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Lipper,
This subject is just something to make the day go by. To Me its Like a T.V. show. The real problem is, Like T.V., to many reruns. I know there are honest roller breeders out there and that they for real. But here is where the rubber meets the road, The only thing you know for sure is what you breed your self. Have fun.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
529 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:01 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Scott, Off the subject though..I think a couple beers with you and Fred would be a good time...
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1888 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:06 PM
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Scott,
I beg your pardon, I did not say if it was the 20 or the 11. I said " I think it was a third place finish in the NBRC championship finals. You said the 20. I checked and I got a third place finish in the NBRC championship fly. OH, I see you thought it was the 20? Poor man, it was the 11 bird competition that you love so much. It's in the record.
Cliff
PS The Neibel thing was just to emphasize that there is more to the mix than just line-breeding, which was the thrust of your conversation to that point. That little story just points out that even the pure bred, line-bred, jammed up pure roller genes, don't always mean the birds will be highly valued for their breeding ability. I do agree the cream will rise to the top. AS for snakes and school girls somehow your name comes to mind.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 12:08 PM
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Scott
2071 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:06 PM
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Mike, I havn't drank in 24 years or so, invision that thought if I still did LOL
As for the colors, the problem is where you are looking, they aren't main stream flyers or breeders, it is rare that you will see such birds when you are out and about, plus it is more of a local regional thing also .
(Hey Scott, Off the subject though..I think a couple beers with you and Fred would be a good time)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2072 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:10 PM
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This was the question Cliff
(Cliff let me ask you a question of these turner birds did you ever compete with them lets say a kit of 20 birds straight turner and if yes how well did they do?)
Gary must have mis-read it, first he put 5th place,or he just tried to sneak it by.
(I beg your pardon, I did not say if it was the 20 or the 11. I said " I think it was a third place finish in the NBRC championship finals. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 12:10 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1889 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:12 PM
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Mike,
Nice looking pair off Henry Cook, he did very well at developing his family and in competition with his birds when he was competing. As for telling if that single bird is a dilute indigo, not sure....but I have one that is similar, that is reduced double indigo. Does she perform for you? That is what important in all this BS.
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
530 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:13 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott, I am pretty much going to stay out of this for now..With my luck I am either gonna have all red checks or all andalusions in a couple years..LOL
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1890 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:17 PM
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Scott,
Don't I wish that I could blame somebody else for my memory! I think I posted and so did you a post from Rick S and his opals. I agree he no longer has them but he sure has a nice fly record with those opals he flew while he had his rare colors. You also read Rick Mee's post about his experience with Dom. Opal. Does their experience and interest in rare colors.... not count? They are both fine roller men with excellent fly records. I am not trying to argue about anyone's fly record or anyone's birds but my own, cause that's all I know for sure. BTW, I am still waiting for you to list all these lies and deceit you attribute to me,a nd tell us what it takes in your mind for a family of birds to be considered stable. I can't wait for that. smile
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
531 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:20 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Cliff, Yes she does she is he bird I am talking about in the other thread I posted..
Mike,
Nice looking pair off Henry Cook, he did very well at developing his family and in competition with his birds when he was competing. As for telling if that single bird is a dilute indigo, not sure....but I have one that is similar, that is reduced double indigo. Does she perform for you? That is what important in all this BS.
Cliff
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Scott
2073 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:36 PM
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Mike,she looks weak , lets see a good picture of that head and eye.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 12:39 PM
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