jim
233 posts
May 13, 2009
2:12 AM
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Morning Gents,
Herewith the results of the first set of world cup flights from Hannes Rossouw
Kevin Monroe-54.6
Rick Mee -110.88
Bruce Howery-11
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Jim "Mason"
http://www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
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Victor Hurtado
15 posts
May 13, 2009
5:57 PM
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good score guys
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0221
258 posts
May 14, 2009
7:00 PM
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Just Home from dropping off Hannes at the airport. He's a great guy, and I'd say He calls them pretty real. Santa Claus He's not. Great time.
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j .wanless
760 posts
May 15, 2009
5:39 AM
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hi all
0221 ive seen hanness/s birds a few times + he does know a good pigeon.so im not supprised that the scores are been kept quite low.you are right he is a smashing lad.hope he does a great job of the w/c.
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Scott
2142 posts
May 15, 2009
7:38 AM
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That is really great to hear !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
577 posts
May 15, 2009
9:55 AM
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I can't help remembering how the LAst South African Brian McKenzie explained in great detail how all the South African judges were very consistent with each other in how they judged because of all the seminars on judging, etc. I remember how Brian judged and that was more on the side if it rolls, it scores,
and seperate with Q and D.
From what I am hearing, the new judge is a bit different.
Hmm, now about that certified judging program.......
Regards,
Ken
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BA Rollers
240 posts
May 15, 2009
1:31 PM
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Al why should Ken delete his message? He is expressing his opinion. I and many others share his sentiments. Brian was a loose judge, and he was fine with being just that. Hannes was here at my place this morning and we flew some birds. He knows a good spinner when he sees one. A good kit will have to really dig down and earn a good score from Hannes. And apparently if both men attended an educational course on how to judge, then neither man was in the same class under the same instructor. This is why seminars only work for newbies who haven't shaped an opinion. I know of not a single seasoned roller flyer who would change his mind on how he judges. And I've asked many. That is reality. Piss in one hand and hope for "change" in the other and see which one warms up first..lol.
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j .wanless
761 posts
May 15, 2009
1:47 PM
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hi all
lads i have seen both hanness + brians birds + both fly very good birds + both know a good roller.but lets not forget we have changed the rules this year.
brian did mark loose last year+ i talked to him about it.brian told me he judged according to the rules .so he said rather than blame the judge blame or change the rules which we have.now look at the scores ive said all along get rid of the follow through or split second rule + we will see a massive diffrence +we are already.some said it would not make any diffrence but of course it will if the rules not there to use it will not be used.
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kcfirl
578 posts
May 15, 2009
4:32 PM
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Hi guys,
I guess Al didn't like what I had to say although I didn't get a chance to read it.
I want to be very clear that I personally had no problem with Brian's judging, and I only saw him judge 2 kits.
My comment was only about the fallacy of the idea that having certified judges would mean that all the certified judges would judge the same kit with the same score.
I do believe if would benefit the sport if whatever organization running the fly would publish a definition of what a minimum scoreable quality roller was. Then, at least, we argue about interpretation verses whether a corn cob, wings flaring, cull is scoreable or not.
Brian and Hannes for that matter is welcome to judge my birds any time. I look forward to seeing them fly their birds as well at some point.
Best Regards,
Ken
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katyroller
400 posts
May 15, 2009
5:45 PM
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"My comment was only about the fallacy of the idea that having certified judges would mean that all the certified judges would judge the same kit with the same score."
"I do believe if would benefit the sport if whatever organization running the fly would publish a definition of what a minimum scoreable quality roller was. Then, at least, we argue about interpretation verses whether a corn cob, wings flaring, cull is scoreable or not."
Ken, This is all part of the thinking behind certifying judges. It would give all judges a uniform understanding of what a "minimum scoreable quality roller was". Apparently, you are in agreement that there are judges who do not understand this concept. If this is in fact the case, how can we expect to have accurate judging without some type of training. Someone else mentioned that the fliers should be better educated. That's fine and dandy but what does it solve if the flier knows what to look for and the judge doesn't? Tracey
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 5:46 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3423 posts
May 15, 2009
6:55 PM
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I have no problem with anyone's judging. The judge who is judging as we watch any kit fly is the best judge.
I know that the best two kits in the Central Region are the two that will go on to the finals. The judge was absolutley right on.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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turkey buzzard
99 posts
May 18, 2009
11:48 AM
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Mark my word the scores will be totally different when he gets to England and S. Africa and he judges those birds.
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Scott
2156 posts
May 18, 2009
12:50 PM
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I knew this shit was coming before the judging even started,it happens everytime there is a judge that actualy seperates the wheat from the chaff, yea it gets ugly.
(Mark my word the scores will be totally different when he gets to England and S. Africa and he judges those birds.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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j .wanless
765 posts
May 18, 2009
12:57 PM
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hi all
turkey buzzard what are you trying to say.by the sound of it you dont like his way of judging.is it that he is too hard or to easy let us know .like charlie boy says as long as the best kit wins.
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kcfirl
579 posts
May 18, 2009
1:08 PM
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tracey,
I am only saying that until the body sponosrign the event can wrtie on a piece of paper what an aceptable roll is, there is no point in having training or certification sessions.
I do not beleive we can get agreement on what should count, so no point in having any training cause depending on who the trainer is, we will get different instruction.
Ken
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
409 posts
May 18, 2009
1:08 PM
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Has anyone who is making these negative comments actually seen the man judge the birds or are you just trying to drag him down to your level? Sounds to me like the judge has high standards and scores the birds accordingly! I haven't heard anyone whose birds were judged make any adverse comments, quite the contrary. Let the man do his job and keep the peanut gallery comments to a minimum. Good luck to those that still have to fly, may the best kit win, regardless of which country it calls home. Scott you're right, patience is getting thinner with age!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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SiDLoVE
433 posts
May 18, 2009
1:09 PM
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I think what Turkey is trying to say is that the Judge is playing hard judge here, but when he gets back to England and S. Africa hell loosen up a bit and the scores will be higher.... and dont hurt the messenger...LMAO , that would be me..
Sidlove
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 1:12 PM
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Flipmode
374 posts
May 18, 2009
1:26 PM
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Hey Sid we just finished the LA finals. And boy O boy them birds better be PERFECT! I scribed for him and I will tell you that he aint scoring it if it aint perfect. There was alot of confused faces in the big crowd today. Alot of folks was scratching their heads. The good thing is that so far he has been the same everywhere. Good luck to the rest of the qualifiers.
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SiDLoVE
435 posts
May 18, 2009
1:34 PM
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Glad to hear Flipmode. If you go back a couple years for major flies, Tim Decker and Rick Mee ususally do something and its the same this year as they lead even with a low score so it makes since to me.
Sidlove
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 1:37 PM
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Scott
2157 posts
May 18, 2009
1:55 PM
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Mike , you mean we actualy have a judge that is judging the most premier fly in the world only scoreing birds doing it right,imagine that LOL
(Hey Sid we just finished the LA finals. And boy O boy them birds better be PERFECT! I scribed for him and I will tell you that he aint scoring it if it aint perfect. There was alot of confused faces in the big crowd today. Alot of folks was scratching their heads. The good thing is that so far he has been the same everywhere. Good luck to the rest of the qualifiers. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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j .wanless
766 posts
May 18, 2009
2:04 PM
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hi all
scott it looks like at last we have someone judging the best birds in the world how they should be judged.
like joe said most of the people who as flew say positive things about him.but we can never satisfy every one.
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Flipmode
375 posts
May 18, 2009
2:19 PM
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Yeah Scott, he is the one!!!!! No B.S. will get scored. Even some scorable breaks aren't getting scored. If he judge like this all the way through the finals there will be no "goofy scores"! Unless someone puts up a super natural kit of birds. He wants them babies hitting hard, hitting big, and hitting on the money. His standards are set high up there.
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 3:00 PM
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Scott
2159 posts
May 18, 2009
2:22 PM
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Sounds like he isn't scoreing those marginal breaks either, good deal !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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0221
262 posts
May 18, 2009
2:36 PM
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I say the Man Is doing a fine job.
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155
1034 posts
May 18, 2009
4:08 PM
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it sounds like his doing his job, who will have the best kit of the DAY?
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EVILLOFT'S
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TimP
177 posts
May 18, 2009
9:48 PM
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All, No marginal breaks. In watching I would say that the birds will have to break within less then 10 miliseconds of each other for it to be scored. I definetly will be making a trip to South Africa in the near future.
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jim
234 posts
May 18, 2009
11:42 PM
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Morning Gents,
Herewith the results of the first set of world cup flights from Hannes Rossouw
MIKE EVANS 5,7//6,5,7//9,5//0
Q-1.2 D-1.2 TOTAL 63.36
ALONZO CANO 7,5//5//6//5,5,6,5
Q-1.2 D-1.3 TOTAL 68.64
EFRIM LOPEZ 5//0//0//0
Q-1.3 D-1.1 TOTAL 7.15
Hannes scored the highest on quality in the worlcup ever last year. This was a score received by an American judge. The man flies a very high quality kit that always performs above the average. He is consistent and gives points where points are warranted. His ability to judge consistent and knowledge on quality and depth is remarkable. South Africa has always been striving for quality and the proper measurement thereof.
”Never Forget the True Beauty of the deep spinner”
extract from letter from KEN WHITE 2008 age 91
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Jim "Mason"
http://www.devilear-roller.co.za
Member of NBRC
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turkey buzzard
100 posts
May 19, 2009
6:23 AM
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Scott and Wanless what you are telling me is that a bird that rolls 15 feet does not deserve a score or a bird that had his wings while spinning in a "W" pattern. We would all like 30 foot rolls with exceedingly fast revolutions and fantastic "H" pattern wings to score a 1.4 or a 1.5 Quality/Depth. But according to the rules the birds do deserve a score but much less of one due to the Quality involved.
Look at the history of the WC what ever area the judge came from that is usually who he picked etc. It's not saying anything good or bad or talking smack it's life it's human nature/factor.
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j .wanless
767 posts
May 19, 2009
7:05 AM
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hi all
turkey i agree with you birds that roll 15 ft if rolling right have to be marked.but you also have to have at least 5 going together to score.not a split second after any more.maybe he thought they were not breaking clean i dont know.but up to now only you are complaining .i judged a euro qualifyer at the weekend + 1 of the kits that had been scoring over 300 pts the last 2 flys only scored 84 pts with me.as i thought lots of the breaks were following through.yet a few of the lads expected there to be a massive score
most people only see movement + think they should be scored + thats not true .
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Scott
2161 posts
May 19, 2009
7:05 AM
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Carl,how do the rules say that ???? show me
It sounds to me like he wants seperation and that he isn't scoring X wingers, just because it rolls over 10 ft doesn't mean it scores, obviously he want them doing it right, the bulk of the lenient judges score everything including 3 footers,funny no one complains about that !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 1:17 PM
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jnyce
731 posts
May 19, 2009
7:15 AM
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scott can you or any one else explain to me how some flyer acumulate a 1000 points in a fly or is this all together from all there flys in interested in learning this i want to no whats going on
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jerry t
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0221
263 posts
May 19, 2009
7:16 AM
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I scored the same kitt at the time Hannes did, His score was higher than mine. I think He is alot more realistic than most, But ask Yourself a question, Is He consistant? It's not high score! Its about the best kitt winning the compitition. Lets be honest and good sportsmen.
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j .wanless
768 posts
May 19, 2009
7:19 AM
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hi tim
im judging in africa next may its a comp where the uk fly against africa.it was started so flyers from each country can visit each other,the 1st year we took 9 over there + had a trip of a life time that we will never forget.the fly is every other year but if you want to see thier birds what better time to visit.if your intrested let me know + you can tag along with us
all accomodation + travel will be free all you need is a flight to johanasbourgh.
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 7:22 AM
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the rollers
76 posts
May 19, 2009
7:59 AM
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hi all,
it sounds like Hannes is doing a fine job, i will not be flying in the WC but hope to see the UK finalists. This judging/scoring sounds a lot more like the english way we can never understand the massive scores even for kits i have seen judged. this is what judging should be marking decent rollers going together and not just movement.
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pigeon pete
304 posts
May 19, 2009
8:29 AM
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Hi guys,
Every year someone moans about the judging and it's usually a U.S flyer.
Good luck to the English finalists, or I should say the Middlesborough finalists.
I don't know if you guys are aware, but most of the English fanciers do not fly the WC anymore, it has all but died the death over here and there is only one region flying.
Maybe the Mickey Mouse scoring in the past has put people off?
Pete.
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turkey buzzard
101 posts
May 19, 2009
10:55 AM
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Pete/Scott people come and go all the time it's been that way for years we have areas in the US that will not contribute to the flies. Nor are they willing to even compete in a fly in there own state.
The rules state that a minmum depth of 10 feet needs to be reached to score. The wing style is up to the judges interpretation. So if you had birds that rolled fast, bullet fast, and 30 feet but was "X" winged when rolling what would you score it. Most judges score the birds but mark them down for Quality of roll. Scott I am not arguing with you I am trying to improve myself while watching my birds and judging other regions as a whole. Call me if you want (830)992-1852cell.
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TimP
178 posts
May 19, 2009
11:02 AM
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All, Hannes is doing a good job. He has a breakdown of what he is looking for with him, if you have any questions just ask him he is more than willing to show or explain it to you. John, sounds great, May 2010 let me know the exact dates and I'll reserve my tickets very soon. Thanx for the invite and letting me know early. Scott and Carl, my take is that for the most part it has to do with the break itself, 1 of the kits we watched Hannes explained to me in detail, while alot of the birds displayed better depth and quality while rolling individually they were not as deep and clean in the breaks. The birds were still in the air and I really focused in on this after the explination and from what I saw he was correct. He also told me many times they have to hit a wall!
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Scott
2163 posts
May 19, 2009
5:14 PM
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That is easy Jerry, the lower the standards the higher the scores.
(scott can you or any one else explain to me how some flyer acumulate a 1000 points in a fly or is this all together from all there flys in interested in learning this i want to no whats going on
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jerry t )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2164 posts
May 19, 2009
5:22 PM
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When I have a good team, this is the type of judge I pray for .
(I scored the same kitt at the time Hannes did, His score was higher than mine. I think He is alot more realistic than most, But ask Yourself a question, Is He consistant? It's not high score! Its about the best kitt winning the compitition. Lets be honest and good sportsmen. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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jnyce
732 posts
May 19, 2009
5:58 PM
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so what is a reasonable score for a good kit ?? this whole scoring thing is forgien to me
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jerry t
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3439 posts
May 19, 2009
6:43 PM
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Pete Handy pretty well nailed it. The moaning about the judge seems to always come from the US fliers. We can't seem to acknowledge that the person judging is always right on until the next judge and then that judge will be right on too. Just put up and shut up!
Scott - what kind of judge do you pray for when you got a bad team? I think you should pray for the same type of judge for a good or bad team.
I think most of the English fliers quit flying in the World Cup because they keep getting thier ass handed to them. Has nothing to do with judging. It is a "If I can't win it; I ain't going to do it" attitude. Maybe this year someone in the UK will win it and England will get thier fliers back in force.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 7:00 PM
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0221
264 posts
May 19, 2009
7:15 PM
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Nick, I spoke with G.Mason today on that subject. He told Me in His area, theres not enough flyer's to make a region any longer. Middlesboro is where the bulk of the flyer's are and they still compete. So I don't think they are afraid of You yet. LOL LOL.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3440 posts
May 19, 2009
7:18 PM
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Just trying to stimulate; just trying(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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velocity1
49 posts
May 19, 2009
9:05 PM
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From what i was told he is a very good judge and consistant.High standards,has a good eye,knows what a good bird is.I like him :)
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Hector Coya
487 posts
May 19, 2009
9:22 PM
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I am curiuse to know,if there was 2 judges at any of these flys this week,whould both judges scores be close,
I judged my club fly the same time we flew our preleminarys,
Surprizingly,my scores for most of the houses i judged at the same time as our W/C judge where within 20 points,one was 8 points diferent,we where at diferent parts of the yard and it seems we both saw the same breaks.To me that was good judging if 2 people in diferent parts of the yard give verry close scores.
Just wondering if my judging is closer to a big percent of judges and this judge we have for the finals is the exeption,how many whould have given close to the same points?
I whould like to here the opinions of some of the spectators that witnessed these flys,and what do they think they whould have given the flyer.
Hector Coya
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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yang501424
261 posts
May 19, 2009
10:18 PM
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This judge true identify the word "together"
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Good Game Loft
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1914 posts
May 20, 2009
8:49 AM
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Ken
If you would like to "discuss" this interesting issue, I would like to play devil's advocate.
I suggest we omit "DEPTH" because it is already addressed about as well as I think it can be... "Suggested 10 feet". All I will say is that " It does NOT say "Suggested 20 feet." We will always have judges that will interpret or misinterpret that to mean that they can choose their own depth as their minimum....Just My opinion till this is written in such away as to remove any doubt.... If it can be.
So to start the ball rolling, so to speak....
I would like to point out a few things I think are pertinent. First, the revolutions must be faster than you can count to be scorable or to be "ROLLING ADAQUATELY" and in unison. Is this agreeable and a part of the "standard" we can support?
Next, "WING POSITIONS". If we are going to have a minimum scorable wing position, I feel we must address these from "most desirable to least desirable." When a quality multiplier is given, it is understood that this number represents ONLY those birds that were scored on the breaks and is ONLY an AVERAGE of the quality of those birds.
I think it may serve all of us to consider we assign quality on each break at the time the break is called to just see if our estimation of the average quality is in fact correct. I am not suggesting it become a rule; just a test of whether our recollections during the time the kit is under judgement is close. Just a thought. This is a way to move away from subjective to more of a mathematical form of judgement.
Lowest Quality.... may be a combination of at least two qualities revolutions and wing position.....just turns over fast enough to where "most" can not count the revolutions and a wing position where the wings are held straight out from the body, not a low X but straight. Can the possibility of a fast rotation overcome a poor wing position enough to let us consider this bird scorable? What is most important WING POSITION or velocity? Does wing position trump velocity, the other way around or are the equal?
Discussion: what we have is one element that is met ( revolutions that can't be counted) but the wing position is or IS NOT scorable.
Is it a tumbler?....not if it met the minimum depth. Did it meet the part of the quality standard? YES!
Should we accept this wing position if it meets the rest of the standard? If NOT WHY NOT?
Next lowest Quality.... Low X and a little faster.
Next..... high X still faster.
Next "A" type Faster
Next "H" type Faster
Highest Quality ... Blur Ball.
The higher the quality multiplier, the more birds averaged the higher velocity and averaged the better the wing style.
I also think we need to determine some kind of wording to address what is NOT scorable on a bird's exit of the roll. I know many do not feel this is adequately covered so that most can understand . The 11 bird rules clearly state what is not scorable but the 20 kinda leaves it up in the air. We can do better on some these issues.
Cliff
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j .wanless
771 posts
May 20, 2009
9:06 AM
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hi all
hey nick dont be cheeky lol.by the way have you forgot pete handy won it a few years ago + the runner up was from here.we also had the runner up to hiennie 2 year ago .nick the only reason only us in middlesbrough are flying this year in the w/c is that the rest of the country cant be bothered to get off thier arse + make sure yhey have some one to organise it.theres lots that want to fly in it but no one wants to organise it,its the same old story with them.
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TimP
179 posts
May 20, 2009
9:19 AM
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Ballrollers, you don't have to worry about depth with Hannes he is very consistent with duration. He has a milisecond stop watch to make sure they roll 1 second or longer, he'll show you when he gets to your neck of the woods.
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Scott
2165 posts
May 20, 2009
2:32 PM
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The judge will have some bearing on how I set up my birds Nick, a poor judge I will shoot more towards frequency as nothing else really matters to them including depth, a judge like this and I will try to set them up for quality only.
(Scott - what kind of judge do you pray for when you got a bad team? I think you should pray for the same type of judge for a good or bad team.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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