bigwilly
1050 posts
Sep 18, 2009
8:07 PM
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Who has some of the best muffs you seen in the air? Im thinking about starting a muff project. I never see anyone fly any in comp. However, I seen some real nice ones fly at Eddy Scotts and Paul Gomezs when I was a kid.
BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2009 8:08 PM
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glenn
267 posts
Sep 18, 2009
8:16 PM
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Hello:
Paul may diagree with me on this...But I would not breed muff to muff just to breed muffs. Breed the best spinners together and if they are muffed so be it. To many generations of muff to muff will cause you some problems. And yes I do have some birds that are groused & muffed but I do not breed for it...Glenn
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bigwilly
1051 posts
Sep 18, 2009
8:27 PM
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Thanks for response Glenn. If you get a chance, I would love to C a pic of some of your muffs.
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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wannaroll
50 posts
Sep 18, 2009
9:22 PM
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Here is a picture of my Pepperhead cock with muff feet.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
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bigwilly
1052 posts
Sep 18, 2009
9:44 PM
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I c that he is in the breeder loft. How was it in the air Dave?
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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bigwilly
1053 posts
Sep 18, 2009
10:00 PM
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CV where are you from?
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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wannaroll
51 posts
Sep 18, 2009
11:20 PM
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The pepperhead was a great flyer, he was a lead bird and had a deep tight roll. That's was Fred Jenkins told me anyways. I got this bird from him.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3695 posts
Sep 19, 2009
1:37 AM
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The Birmingham Roller can come with booted feet with some light feathering on the feet. I think some of the birds being shown have exceeded the discription. There is a difference in booted and muffed. I would not want to breed for them; to me it is like breeding for bull-eyes or something in that order.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 19, 2009 1:49 AM
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darkhorse09
122 posts
Sep 19, 2009
4:39 AM
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Really like these types of rollers, they look very good. I wish I had some of them.
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wannaroll
52 posts
Sep 19, 2009
8:19 AM
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My pepperhead just has a few feathers on his feet, he's not like the ones above with a bunch of feathers. They do look kinda cool though!
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
499 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:11 AM
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Again,they sure look like they have been crossed with flying West of England.The boot is common in rollers but big question on the long muffs. JDA
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cv rollers
478 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:34 AM
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bigwilly i deleted the pic's ,look up my profile u can email me if u want ,we have the experts that know every thing making comments about someones hard work(project) if u cant say anything nice dont say any thing ,nobody asked you!!!!!
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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pat66
402 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:53 AM
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All J.L.Smith birds
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Pat
Last Edited by on Sep 19, 2009 10:57 AM
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wannaroll
53 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:55 AM
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Hey CV, I think your birds are cool.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
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cv rollers
479 posts
Sep 19, 2009
11:15 AM
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thanks Dave
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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donnie james
749 posts
Sep 19, 2009
1:58 PM
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hay billwilly one of my blue almond hen is muffed and she is a 15 to 20 feeter and she throw muffed young birds as well....................donny james
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darkhorse09
123 posts
Sep 19, 2009
2:31 PM
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My friend in UK told me that rollers use to have a lot of feathers on their feet. Its because people in the past around the world had different rollers. When they bought them to UK, they got mixed up so some Birmingham rollers will come with feathered feet some won't. Its in the genese somewhere.
So I doubt there rollers are cross bred unless the person that keeps rollers and wests of englands mixed in an open loft. I seen a stuffed roller which had feathered feet (like the ones pictured.
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glenn
268 posts
Sep 19, 2009
4:04 PM
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Hello All:
Muff Rollers dont have hocks, if you look at a West of England Tumbler they will have hocks.....Glenn
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Hector Coya
555 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:18 PM
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Rick,dont deleete the picture,I dont care what anyone thinks,all i know is my Muff's roll faster and deeper than some of the guys the put those muffs down,and when you go to there house they never fly anything for you,,,
Here is a picture of one of mine.
I never put any West in them i got them in 1985 and they already had muffs like this,whether somone before me crossed them ,i dont know,and frankly as good as they roll what ever they put worked out great,,,LOL
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Hector Coya
556 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:20 PM
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At least i fly COMP,im flying next week for the F/F
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Squabby*32
75 posts
Sep 19, 2009
10:57 PM
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Nice looking Muffs.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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darkhorse09
124 posts
Sep 20, 2009
12:55 AM
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very nice, keep the pics coming. Really like the red.
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
501 posts
Sep 20, 2009
7:56 AM
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Hector....I,am from the old school and your birds to me look great and they roll that,s (Great)for you. What I was saying is the imports in the thirty,s, some had boots or groused feet and that does show up in the families of the original imports,but not muffs.Personally I do like all muffed pigeons.Like you say you don,t know for sure what is behind yours, west or? Again your birds look good.Thanks JDA
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UFCVM
59 posts
Sep 20, 2009
8:33 AM
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I think the muffs are particularly attractive when they keep nice. Bigwilly, Cheers to the person that wants to do a muff project. I'll help ya with it if you want. ;)
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Kevin
~Portable Flyer: Backyard flyer that flys in someone else's backyard.
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ezeedad
1048 posts
Sep 20, 2009
10:32 AM
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This bird won Grand Champion at the QSDC show this year. I understand why some people don't want to breed muffs.
They are more trouble. I have to use different size bands, and I have to get them on quickly.. Those feathers grow fast.
But for me it is a challenge that goes far back in my experience with pigeons.
Glen is absolutely right that breeding simply for muffs is generally not a good idea, but I started my family
from the hardest spinners in my possesion.
Hector has been working on his muffs for 25 years. These projects are not one season things...
Paul G
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2009 10:35 AM
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katyroller
566 posts
Sep 20, 2009
11:10 AM
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Paul,
Nice muff! Go down to 9/19, reading material, there is a guy named Polarbear that could use your book.
Tracey
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Hector Coya
557 posts
Sep 20, 2009
1:49 PM
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JDA,Thanks for the complament of the Muff's
Did you ever see,the Muff's Frank Lavin had out of his 2564 Imports from Pensom,I remember an old friend by the name of Carl Burgess,he had some of the old school 2564 and let me tell you he had some real big muff's after inbreeding them for a few years.
I still have a little of that stuff from Carl Burgess.
Thanks Hector Coya-SGVS
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
502 posts
Sep 20, 2009
3:07 PM
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Hector...I was at Franks with Bill Ingles back in the seventies when I lived in Manhattan Beach,and of course Frank had his 514 stuff.I recall boots on some birds. JDA
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Hector Coya
558 posts
Sep 20, 2009
4:05 PM
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Yea ,I guess it all depends on if you bred to improve
the muff's,the once my friend Carl had where from Frank ,and some whould come out totally clean leg and the nestmate had prety big muff's
He bred the big muff's back to back and they did improve on the muff.
I think its like pedegree breeding,some people look at the paper before the bird to pair them up,
its like looking at the size of the muff before looking at the roll,Both wrong but ive seen it done..
Hector Coya-SGVS
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
503 posts
Sep 20, 2009
7:48 PM
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Hector....If the family is write,you look at the pedigrees then look a the birds and pair best to best for speed,velocity,depth,and balance.The pedigrees have no holes in them and go back to the imports of the thirties. JDA
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Hector Coya
559 posts
Sep 20, 2009
8:37 PM
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JDA,
I have tons of pedegrees,i Still have many first jeneration offspring from my Original Bob Scott's
That have pedegrees going back to Pensom ,and lehmyer.
Ive had this family since 1982,
i find that i myself got cought up in pedegree breeding years back.
Now in my old age,48 ,i find myself breeding out of what they do in the air and dont even look at the pedegrees.The outcome has been good sofar,i may be wrong but will see.
Hector Coya_SGVS
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UFCVM
60 posts
Sep 21, 2009
4:12 AM
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Pedigrees are nice to see. But using beef and dairy industry as an example, they can only prove the accuracy of the performance of offspring from pedigrees at 75%. They can get much higher accuracy by actually looking at the performance of many offspring of one bull.
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Kevin
~Portable Flyer: Backyard flyer that flys in someone else's backyard.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2065 posts
Sep 21, 2009
5:40 AM
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"IF" your best cock and your best hen is booted and "IF" that is your foundation pair, it is understandable that most of the birds bred may not fit the same description, while the handler is still breeding towards the performance standard.
Most, if not all, the statements made about Rollers are generalizations to cover most situations, but exceptions do occur.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2009 7:21 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2066 posts
Sep 21, 2009
6:01 AM
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PS
If we bred lightly feathered booted birds together long enough , booted birds will become common and the boots will become larger/longer. If these birds are bred together, over time, muffs will emerge. This is an example of a recessive gene that was become deeply entrenched to the point it is dominate within some families of Rollers.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2068 posts
Sep 21, 2009
6:51 AM
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JDA
Good observation and yes the WOE tumbler is very definitely in the genetic make up of almost every Birmingham Roller. The Old Dutch tumbler is also a very prominent contributor to the Birmingham Roller. Both of these types of tumblers were used in the early development of the Birmingham Roller.
Cliff
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harrison
1256 posts
Sep 21, 2009
8:42 AM
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Nice looking bird hector(the red beard muff)
loverly white feet better feet then my PET west of england cock.
yours harrison
H.K.R ROLLER LOFT HULL UK
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pigeon pete
378 posts
Sep 21, 2009
10:28 AM
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I thinkthat if you just breed for performance you can end up with more and more leg feathering.
I bred Just one hen with grouse legs and she was my best roller. I bred from her and over the last few years I have bred a few with feathered feet.
This year i have bred one with feathered feet, and a few grouse legs.If I paired it to a grouse legged pigeon I know I will get a lot more. I don't particularly like the problems as outlined by Paul, and I wish that hen had been clean legged.
Pete.
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ezeedad
1049 posts
Sep 21, 2009
10:37 AM
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Hector,
2564 is where my muffs came from too.. Also, Cornell told me that he thought that pensom's best speed was coming out of the 119 cock, which was 2564's father...
Paul G
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ezeedad
1051 posts
Sep 21, 2009
10:43 AM
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Tracey,
Thanks for letting me know about Polarbear...
Paul G
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darkhorse09
125 posts
Sep 21, 2009
12:10 PM
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You got any spare feathered feet rollers pigeon pete?
If yes what colours and where you based in the UK. Thanks
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bigwilly
1054 posts
Sep 21, 2009
1:47 PM
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Hey Paul. Was 119 a muff or clean leg? Also, I have Gomez#258 I got from you a couple of years ago. What were the parents to this bird like?
In your oppinion, what are your thoughts on your muff family kitting, velocity, and the depth ability? In other words, I would like to know your observations in regards to your muff family. I know that you had them for years and you still have them and they look the same. Is it fair to say that you have not introduced any other family into your breeding program?
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2009 2:05 PM
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bigwilly
1055 posts
Sep 21, 2009
2:08 PM
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Yeah Paul I have about 3 babies that I have been working to get up and flying out of the 258 cock . I kind of put my muffs on the back burner for a while. Know Im ready to get back into them. It sucks because I have never flew this cock that I got from you however I cant wait to c the babbies
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2009 2:09 PM
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ezeedad
1052 posts
Sep 21, 2009
2:59 PM
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Hey Will,
The parents of 258 were a dark checker cock out of one of the founding pairs of my muffs..( a half brother/sister.
Both birds were out of 591..extreme velocity.. shrinker and outstanding breeder.)
It was mated to an almond muff hen that was 3/4 of 201, a daughter of 683 the other founding cock and full brother of 646.
683 rolled blur speed, showed a hole and had tips touching.
To make a long story short.. The blood is closely bred out of my best rollers... I haven't brought new blood
into my family in 25 years..
This is 258's mother
Paul G
Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2009 3:01 PM
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bigwilly
1058 posts
Sep 21, 2009
3:07 PM
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Yeah Paul. Im excited to c the birds work that I bred from your stuff especially my muffs. Any advice?
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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bigwilly
1059 posts
Sep 21, 2009
3:09 PM
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Paul. 258s mother look like she had speed. Small typy little bird just like her son
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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ezeedad
1053 posts
Sep 21, 2009
4:18 PM
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Will,
I would just fly them the same as any other roller. Maybe if the muffs are too big you might clip
them shorter to avoid drag.. help to avoid the falcon too.
My family can show pretty good activity when they are 3 or 4 months old, but it is still not the real
deal till they get closer to a year old. They are strong flyers, so you shouldn't over feed them. Train them ASAP.
Paul G
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bigwilly
1062 posts
Sep 21, 2009
4:22 PM
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Thanks Paul. You the man
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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pat66
406 posts
Sep 22, 2009
11:00 AM
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Gotta love MUFF!!!!!!!!!!
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Pat
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pigeon pete
379 posts
Sep 22, 2009
1:30 PM
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Darkhorse,
I have only got one youngbird with feathered feet and it may not be rolling yet, so I couldn't say how it will turn out. I am about 50-60 miles away from you.
Pete.
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darkhorse09
126 posts
Sep 23, 2009
8:00 AM
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Pigeon Pete,
Thanks for the reply. Thats too fa for me. Good luck with the young roller.
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