nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3756 posts
Nov 06, 2009
6:37 PM
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If during a NBRC competition a bird rolls down after time in and is on the ground for more than 10 seconds, but rejoins the kit does that bird then become scorable or is it considered a early down bird?
What if it rejoins the kit in less than 10 seconds?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2009 6:38 PM
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George R.
163 posts
Nov 06, 2009
8:15 PM
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Nick
I believe it has 10 seconds to join the kit otherwise it would be considred a out bird
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George Ruiz
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Velo99
2188 posts
Nov 07, 2009
4:26 AM
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If I read the rules right the first down is an outbird.The ten second rule only applies to the second bird.
From the NBRC site
"Fly time
The kit is "in judgment" for 20 minutes after time-in or until the second bird lands, whichever occurs first. However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in unless driven down by a bird of prey or extreme weather. A bird down that spontaneously crashes (after one bird has landed) shall be given up to 10 seconds to resurrect and resume flight or else it shall be considered the second bird down."
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2009 4:28 AM
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fhtfire
2183 posts
Nov 07, 2009
8:32 AM
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Kenny,
You are right.....
It says nothing about the first bird being down....is says (after one bird has landed it shall be given up to 10 seconds or it is a DQ.....the first bird can return to the kit anytime...it appears it can do what it wants until it returns to the kti....
I did not see anywhere in the rules where it states that a bird that lands then goes back up and rejoins the kit is still considered out....I would say that if a bird lands and then goes back up...it is no longer considered out...unless someone can find a rule that I missed....the first bird out from what I read...can land...fly away..come back...fly low..come back..land in a tree come back...and if it returns to the kit it is in.....
The 10 second rule is for a DQ
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3757 posts
Nov 07, 2009
9:21 AM
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So, a rolldown is just considered an out bird as long as no other bird has landed. When it rejoins the kit no matter how much time it is on the ground it is just an out bird that has rejoined the kit?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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fhtfire
2184 posts
Nov 07, 2009
1:01 PM
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Nick,
That is how I read it...and you cant make up rules that are not there.....so it does not say anywhere about the first bird landing and not rejoining the kit or what happens if it does....since it does not say anything...then it is not a rule....the bird is just a normal out bird...and it clearly states the 10 minute rule is about the second bird only.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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pigeon pete
427 posts
Nov 07, 2009
4:23 PM
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can it be scored when it rolls down as long as it hits the deck facing the kit?
Pete
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Scott
2595 posts
Nov 07, 2009
5:05 PM
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I would say that the "imtent" of the rule is any bird including the first is considered a bird down, it makes no sence to peg it only on the second bird.
If judging I would rule that the first bird would be considered a extra bird if it rejoined the kit.
But the bottom line is I have never seen this happen that I can remember, normaly when a bird lands there is a reason for it and there is no reason for it to rejoin the kit.
Scott
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Velo99
2189 posts
Nov 07, 2009
5:45 PM
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Scott,
Thats not correct. You have to use the rules,like it or not. The only time it can be considered an extra bird is if it is over 20 after time in is called. The second bird down initates a DQ after ten seconds. The first is just an outbird.
From the NBRC site
Out-Birds
Except for a 15-bird kit, scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit ("out bird"). Scoring shall be suspended but timing shall continue if 2 or more birds are out. Although it cannot score while apart from the kit, a pigeon shall not be considered out if it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, even if the pigeon lands or is captured.
From the NBRC site:
Time-in
The flyer shall have up to five minutes from release of the first bird to declare "time-in”, after which scoring shall commence.
Prior to time-in, the flyer may delete from the kit, or release additional birds as substitutions for, any birds that land, crash, or are captured by predators. Upon declaring time-in, the flyer shall also announce the kit size.
At time-in, all birds in the air, which were released by the flyer, shall be considered part of the kit.
Any birds over 20 shall be considered “extra birds” and their number shall be discounted from all kit turns whether they are in or out of the kit during such turns.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2009 5:50 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2122 posts
Nov 07, 2009
6:38 PM
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Nick
As far as the rules are concerned, most interpretations would favor those expressed by Paul F and Kenny Hartman, although I have to agree with Scott. I believe that the intention is that a bird that rolls down or bumps and lands is considered down and cannot rejoin the kit. The rule is clarifying that the second bird down has 10 seconds to fly before it is considered a DQ. What is your understanding?
Cliff
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3758 posts
Nov 07, 2009
7:21 PM
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Cliff
My understanding is that a bird that rolls down is considered no more than an out bird. If it rejoins the kit it is nothing more than an out bird rejoining the kit.
If a bird lands it is considered an out bird as well; if a second bird lands the fly is over and the clock stops. If the fly achieved the 15 minutes it is a qualifying fly. If the second bird lands before 15 minutes it is a DQ.
If a bird lands and rejoins the kit (rare that it might be) is counted as an extra bird.
There is a significant difference between a bird that rolls down and one that lands. The landing bird is basically out of play and the roll down is still in play.
I think the rules concerning this needs to be discussed and clarified with a language change in the rules.
I have seen a bird roll down well into the fly and after minutes returned to the kit. I also understand how it works if a bird is forced down by weather or preditor then rejoins the kit and I don't want that to be confussed on what I am saying.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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fhtfire
2187 posts
Nov 07, 2009
8:00 PM
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X...its more then one bird flying the 15 minutes....if one birds lands or crashes..and rejoins the kit...NOwhere does it say that the first bird is out....it has to say it before it is a rule....fly time has to do with two birds.....if we are talking about out birds you look at the out bird paragraph....and it is pretty clear
"a pigeon shall not be considered out if it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, EVEN IF THE PIGEON HAS LANDED or is captured."
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2009 8:00 PM
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XtraDeepRoller
50 posts
Nov 07, 2009
8:15 PM
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Paul,
When it says: "even if the pigeon has landed", it is referring to if the weather or bird of prey forced it down.
I helped re-write these rules, and I can guarantee you that we discussed this ad nauseum, the first bird "FAILED" to fly the 15 minutes, so it is down and out from scoring. We only stated about the second bird being down as a DQ, because if a SECOND bird is down, then it is only natural that the FIRST bird is already down. I wanted stronger wording put in just because of this type of interpretation, but the majority voted for it as is.
You guys need to stop looking for loop holes to keep scoring unstable pigeons.
I have never, when I have judged, nor have I ever seen any other judge, score a bird that returned after it rolled down or landed.
Common sense and reality trumps all of this reading between the lines, looking for loopholes, bullshit.
X
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2009 8:25 PM
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Velo99
2191 posts
Nov 08, 2009
5:13 AM
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X
Actually two rules are being misinterpreted. The outbird rule and the extra bird rule. Both would be misapplied in an response to the same situation.
I am not looking for a loophole.I am responding to an interpretation of the rules.
As 6b RD it is my duty to know the rules. My qualifier hasnt flown yet and I have to be on top of things like this. The rule couldnt be more clear.
"Except for a 15-bird kit, scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit ("out bird")."
First sentance in defining outbirds "Leaves the kit" pretty much sums it up. The rules dont care about the first bird because it is an outbird. If an outbird rejoins the kit he is scorable again.No difference between one on the roof and one that just doesnt kit for the whole time.
Neither one score unless they rejoin the kit.
The only time discounting extra birds is allowed is when there are over twenty and your extra birds are indistinguishable from the rest of the kit.
"If additional Rollers join the kit, a simple discount for the extra birds shall be made for each turn involved. If the extra birds can be distinguished from the other birds in the turn, by the judge, then the discount should not be given. For example,if 2 indistinguishable extra birds were in the kit and 7 roll together,the judge would score 5."
We have also split of into two scenarios. One simply an early lander and the other a rolldown. Nick responded with two different responses to the same result. X mentioned unstable birds. Nick wants to reward the RD or unstable bird with continuing to score while penalizing a bird that might not have an obvious reason for landing when the correct response is to count it as an outbird.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 8:03 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2124 posts
Nov 08, 2009
7:16 AM
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Well...obviously the rule needs clarification, though I beleive Xtra is right on target with the intent of the rule. One would't think that the language of the rule would have to state specifically that a bird that rolls down is down and an outbird. But leave it up to roller men to find those gray areas! LOL!
Here's another one for you:
This 15 minutes "FLY TIME", does it start when they first take off or is the time under judgement? If we have 5 minutes to call time in and if we are then given a 5 minute time out due to high winds..... have the birds accumulated 10 minutes of "FLY TIME" without even being under judgement? If they fly 5 more minutes and get scored and then land, have they met the requirement of 15 minutes of fly time?
Is the intent of the fly rules, 15 minutes on the wing or 15 minutes under judgement?
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 7:17 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2125 posts
Nov 08, 2009
7:18 AM
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PS
If time-in is called and then a time out given, can that time be considered part of the 15 minutes "fly time"?
Can a kit that was only under judgement for 10 minutes and given a 5 minute time out, still qualify as flying for 15 minutes?
Cliff
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Velo99
2192 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:01 AM
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Here ya go Cliff
"Upon the flyer's request, the judge may call a single discretionary "time-out" for up to 5 minutes in case of an attack by a bird of prey, blow-away, or other whim of nature.
The judge shall resume judging when the flyer requests or when the 5 minutes has expired, whichever occurs first. The duration of the time-out extends the 20-minute judgment time but has no effect on the 15-minute minimum qualification time."
The rules clearly state no penalties are accrued until two birds are not participating in the fly (scoring suspended)or the second lands(DQ). The first bird is a moot point. There are no rules to address the first bird so no action can be taken against it without the improper use of another rule.
If intent is to be construed it is my conclusion with this particular set of rules was written with the fly in mind not the performance of a SINGLE bird.The second bird is the trigger.
The bar has been set. If it needs to be raised bring it up to the EC.
Whatever happened to the wording change in the rules referring to the "unison" clause when a break actually starts in the WC?
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 8:03 AM
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Scott
2596 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:17 AM
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The intent of the rule is obvious , it is a down bird and will be regarded as such in the finals.
Kenny , any bird in the kit that doesn't belong there is an extra bird. To close up all of these little loopholes with fine print would take up the entire scorebook instead of just the back cover, like X said , common sence has to prevail.
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Scott Campbell
"God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 8:31 AM
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JMUrbon
759 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:30 AM
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This rule is a prime example of the rule stating that it is the judges discresion. I agree that the rule is unclear on the subject but I would rule as Scott says and that bird would be a downed bird regardless if it went back up and in fact had it returned to the kit I would deduct a bird from each break after it returned. Maybe the NBRC should take a look at this rule and clarify it to prevent any confusion in the future. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 8:35 AM
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Velo99
2193 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:00 AM
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The obvious intent of the rule is to give a pass on one bird. The rule is that it doesnt trigger until the second bird.
The rules allow for one bird to be absent from the kit without score and not affect the score of the kit.
I am not reading into anything or gray areas. It is right there in every set of rules printed off this year.Two bird trigger the penalties not one.
Scott,the number of bird to be judged is the number announced by the flyer at the beginning of the fly.
from the NBRC website:
"Time-in
The flyer shall have up to five minutes from release of the first bird to declare "time-in”, after which scoring shall commence. Prior to time-in, the flyer may delete from the kit, or release additional birds as substitutions for, any birds that land, crash, or are captured by predators.
Upon declaring time-in, the flyer shall also announce the kit size. At time-in, all birds in the air, which were released by the flyer, shall be considered part of the kit.
Any birds over 20 shall be considered “extra birds” and their number shall be discounted from all kit turns whether they are in or out of the kit during such turns."
"Extra birds
If additional Rollers join the kit, a simple discount for the extra birds shall be made for each turn involved. If the extra birds can be distinguished from the other birds in the turn, by the judge, then the discount should not be given. For example, if 2 indistinguishable extra birds were in the kit and 7 roll together, the judge would score 5."
I didnt see another allowance to ever deduct points from a kit.
Judges discretion doesnt cover inventing rules. If there isnt a rule to allow you to deduct points from the kit, you cant.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 9:08 AM
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JMUrbon
761 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:15 AM
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Kenny your interpretation of this rule would not change the way I judged this kit. I am sorry but a downed bird that doesnt get up immediately is no longer part of the kit to me. Regardless of gray areas or the intent of the rules. I have never seen this happen but this is how I would treat it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
2597 posts
Nov 08, 2009
1:01 PM
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A down bird is no longer part of the kit and this makes it an extra bird if it rejoins,and this is also the intent of the rules , this is how it will be handled in the finals if the situation arrises, and the fact is it is solely my call, so at least for this year there's your answer.
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Scott Campbell
"God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 2:27 PM
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Scott
2598 posts
Nov 08, 2009
2:31 PM
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Cliff, it has always been once time has been called in, not from the time of release, never ever have I seen this debated.
(Here's another one for you:
This 15 minutes "FLY TIME", does it start when they first take off or is the time under judgement? If we have 5 minutes to call time in and if we are then given a 5 minute time out due to high winds..... have the birds accumulated 10 minutes of "FLY TIME" without even being under judgement? If they fly 5 more minutes and get scored and then land, have they met the requirement of 15 minutes of fly time?
Is the intent of the fly rules, 15 minutes on the wing or 15 minutes under judgement?
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Cliff )
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
554 posts
Nov 08, 2009
4:20 PM
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Nick,
During the prelims, Norm had 2 birds rolldown yet judging continued. Was that because the wind forced his birds to fly at 8-10 ft over that plowed field?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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George R.
164 posts
Nov 08, 2009
7:14 PM
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Joe
Norm should have been DQ'd The wind does not cause Birds to rolldown , instability causes Birds to Rolldown.
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George Ruiz
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3760 posts
Nov 08, 2009
7:17 PM
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Yes, his rolldowns were weather induced. It kept them so low to the ground across that field even a change in the terrain was causing them to bash into the ground.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2599 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:27 PM
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Now Ive heard it all LOL
(Yes, his rolldowns were weather induced. It kept them so low to the ground across that field even a change in the terrain was causing them to bash into the ground.)
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Scott Campbell
"God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 8:28 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2126 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:38 PM
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Scott
This was just a hypothetical question. Not all flyers have the experience to understand the different opinions that are out there. As strange as it sounds, some guys have asked those very questions. They failed to understand or read that Time-in must be called for the time on the wing to begin and that a time-out does not count towards the 15 minute minimum to qualify. Because you know it, and take it for granted, does not mean that everybody knows, but it is an excellent start!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2127 posts
Nov 08, 2009
8:43 PM
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Joe
While I agree that the judge should have a certain amount of discretionary powers, I am not so sure that the judge should be able to allow his opinion to become fly rules or over-ride the intention of the fly rules. But I agree with you, this one needs to be clarified.
It seems to me the fly rules go out of their way to allow ONE BIRD to make mistakes... and one bird that sits in a tree or on the ground or fly's outside the kit, is given NO POWER to stop the kit from scoring. I would hope that, maybe, when issues like this arise, the judge ought to give the break to the flyer if he is in doubt about the correct interpretation of the rule. Flyers have many, many strikes against them already.
Like Scott pointed out....to address every single issue like this, would take a book. We are only human and we make mistakes. Glory is fleeting but integrity lasts for generations.
Cliff
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JMUrbon
763 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:00 PM
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Cliff I in no way would venture away from the rules but a bird down is just that. once the birds is down and considered a down bird in no way should it be allowed to rejoin the kit and still score. it is not a bird that just doesnt want to kit but rather a bird that rolled down. the rule states that if the second bird rolls down and rites itself in the alloted time is still a kit bird that is scorable. Cliff I have always been an advacate for following the rules to the tee and I dont like the rule that allows the judge the ability to use his own judgement rather than the rules as stated. That being said I believe all judges out there do their very best to follow the rules to the best of their ability. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3762 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:54 PM
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Scott - you were not there, but Joe and I were. The birds were flying 5 to 10 feet off the ground or less in 20 to 35 mile an hour winds with gusts. The terrian was hilly and a couple had literally flown into the ground. Forced to the ground by the wind, if you will. Bird hits the ground due to weather the kit can score on.
So, you haven't heard everything.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 5:17 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3763 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:59 PM
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Intent of the rules has nothing to do with nothing. Intent of the rules cannot be applied because it is only one person speculating what that intention is supposed to be. You can only apply the rule.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3764 posts
Nov 08, 2009
10:04 PM
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The judge cannot be just making shit up by envoking what the intent of rules are. Stay within the scope of the rules. If there is no rule that covers an event then don't make one up by using what the so called intent of the rule is.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 10:07 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2128 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:42 AM
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Joe
So in your opinion, you interpret the rule to mean that the first bird that rolls down and rights itself and returns to the kit is not scoreable. But the second bird down is afforded special privelidge and is allowed to return to the kit and be scored?
I don't think that any "down" bird can return to the kit and score, and the intent of the rule is to give EVERY bird 10 seconds to right itself and return to the kit or be declared "down". And when a second bird does the same thing (fails to get back in the air after 10 seconds) the kit is DQd. I don't think the rules are specific enough to confirm either interpretation. I am sorry to say I have not seen any information, written OR DISCUSSED about this, to lead me in the same direction that you take.
I think that the judge has powers of discretion to make allowances in severe weather ad BOP attacks. That is in the rules and since I wasn't there, in your case, nor was I the judge, given the account of two eye witnesses, I feel the judge acted according to rules. Even if the judge made the wrong choice, he still has written instructions to hang his hat on....and not simply his personal opinion.
This next statement is not directed at anyone per say:
The fact remains, our fly rules do have "GRAY AREAS" and until they are made clearer , I see nothing wrong, with whenever a judge finds himself in this predicament, he makes a call that would favor the flyer. Don't we all want each others birds to do the best they can within the fly rule structure? Maybe I have a different idea of SPORTSMANSHIP.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 6:43 AM
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JMUrbon
764 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:19 AM
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Not at all Cliff. Anybird that rolls down has 10 seconds to rite itself and return to the kit. If any bird is down longer than that it is a domn bird. Furthermore if a bird just lands it is down immediately. I also agree with you on the second paragraph Cliff. I feel that we should always make an attempt to score the kit. The heavy winds to me are one of the reasons that rule is in place. So that the judge can use his/her discresion. Not just say screw the guy and DQ the kit. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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fhtfire
2188 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:42 AM
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Joe...it does not say ANY bird that rolls down...has 10 seconds..it says the second bird. There is not intent of the rule....the rules say NOTHING about a first bird rolling down....having 10 seconds...the only thing it says about the first bird is that it is out...NOwhere does it state when the first bird lands it is considered down and out....and never to return....we cant sit here in say the intent of the rule....because it is not a gray area....it states in black and white.....the intent of the first bird coming down...and even landing.... We have to remember...if it does not state it..we cant assume.....the rule is not worded in a way that we can even say the intent....if you wanted the bird to be down and out never to return..then the rule would say it....it would say..."if the first bird lands after time in....the bird will be considered DOWN and can not longer return to the kit...but it DOES NOT SAY THAT>..so what if the bird crashes and lands in the tree.....and then returns....if you follow what the rules say...then it can return......this rule is black and white...not gray...Kenny is right..and unfortunately some dont agree and are trying to change the rule right before our eyes....guys I am no dummy and I have read the rule...20 times...and it is clear...the first bird can land and return to the kit...when it rule state specificly the second bird has to land and has 10 minutes...that that is what it is talking abotu 10 minutes....that first bird can land...fly around...crash...can basically do whatever it wants in the 20 minutes and then can return back to the kit at any time and be scored...it says nothing to the contrary....but it does talk about the second bird...and says SECOND....it has to say to be a rule...but I am sorry..I will never agree on this one..because I know how it reads.
with rules they have to be specific.....look at the rule with having both feet inbounds.....for football...same as the birds....we cant keep saying INTENT.....because that does not even hold up in a Union contract....Intent...that is usually a way to disagree with a rule.....and try and break the rule...we use it all the time in Union fights...and guess what..9 times out of 10 PERB will rule in favor of the person not screaming intent.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2189 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:47 AM
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We cant keep saying intent of the rule....the rule is clear...it states the first bird is just considered out if it is chased off et etc...and then it says..>EVEN WHEN IT LANDS>>>>>it defines an out bird too....so once and out bird is defined.....and the it says even if it lands it is just considered out....and says nothing of not being able to return to the kit..why..because the first bird...REGARDLESS of what it does to be away from the kit..is ONLY OUT...nothing more and nothing less....you read the rules and you cant say intent..because the rules are clear....then it states specifically what happens with the second bird being out...you cant score.....and then it goes on to state...the second bird lands with the first bird..the out bird...then it is a DQ...if it is before 15 minutes...the rules are clear...there is no INTENT to speak of....because it would not been very hard to work the rule about not returning you would simply have to just state it...so intent is thrown out the window.....intent is when you cant word rule a certain way and it can have two meanings...there are no 2 meanings...the rules are clear....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2190 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:54 AM
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Scott said
"A down bird is no longer part of the kit and this makes it an extra bird if it rejoins,"
It does not say that anywhere....it says a downed bird is an out bird....and it defines out bird....we all know what an outbird is...and an outbird can rejoin the kit and not be considered out...it does not say anything about the first bird going down and what happens if it were to rejoin.....if they intended it to be an extra bird if it lands it would have stated that...not hard to write an extra sentence...the rules are rules..and if it does not say it...it is not a rule..but it does..state the first bird is considered an out bird EVEN IF IT LANDS>>>>>lands means to put the feet on the ground....the wheels on the ground..that is the intent....and an OUTBIRD can return to the kit....its to bad the intent was something else...because you are not allowed to say intent with a rule that is open to interpretation..but this was is not.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2191 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:03 AM
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Joe said
Cliff I in no way would venture away from the rules but a bird down is just that. once the birds is down and considered a down bird in no way should it be allowed to rejoin the kit and still score.
Joe...it does not say that in the rule....ALthough I agree..it does not say that..anywhere..does it say that once a bird lands it is no longer scoreable if it returns to the kit...it only says the first bird down is and OUTBIRD and by definition and OUTBIRD can return and score.....it states specificaly...the SECOND bird down will will DQ or stop the fly if you make the time...and if the SECOND bird ...see when it states specifically SECOND bird that means they are only talking about one bird.....if the second bird rolls down..it has 10 seconds to get its shit together.......
It specifically defines what is considered an outbird..and all outbirds can be scored if they return to the kit and there is still only one bird out....or the kit is above 15...so....even if someone says the intent was XYZ...to rules are to specific with SECOND BIRDS>..DEfining out bird..and stated it is only an out bird.>>EVEN IF IT LANDS>....there is no gray area on this part...the rule was well written and actually makes sense.....to specific to use the word intent...and we cant put our feelings to change a rule...Kenny is right on this one....all that Scott and Joe are stating are not in the rules and state it nowhere.....again..the rule is clear as a bell.
and JOE AND SCOTT>..I totally agree with how the rule should be...but the way the rule is WRITTEN>..gives that first bird out bird status "EVEN IF IT LANDS>>>>
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2192 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:26 AM
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X stated
"However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in"
The first bird that rolled down, or landed, FAILED to fly for 15 minutes, therefore it is out AND down, so it cannot score even if it takes off again.
right before failed it says...if more then ONE bird fails to fly...so again..they are talking about the second bird that triggers the DQ or making fly time...
Talks about the second bird alot in the rules that triggers the no scores, DQ, etc etc.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
2600 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:56 AM
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Eliminate these culls before a fly and it will be a non-issue.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless"
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 8:59 AM
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Scott
2601 posts
Nov 09, 2009
9:54 AM
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Not even worth the effort Paul, such kits are a non-issue which is why it has never came up before.
It is the same for the two birds in the fly that Nick brought up, it really doesn't matter any which way you call it.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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pigeon pete
428 posts
Nov 09, 2009
10:31 AM
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Wow What a mine field.
I didn't read half of the posts, but it seems a strange situation when a flyer lets 15 birds out and up to 5 more can join the kit and be scored? weird.
But if it is the flyers own bird that recovered from a rolldown it can't be scored? (open to scullduggery?)
If only half of the interpretations in this thread are right it is still a mess.
I think The flying time accumulated should be debated.
The rule is to ensure that a kit can fly for at least 15 minutes. We had the same rule and I bought it up that one kit flying 34 minutes could get a Dq while another flying for 15 minutes does not.
We had up to 10 minutes before time in and up to 10 minutes off the clock, but only counted the time 'on the clock' for the 15 minute rule. Obviously a kit that flew for 34 minutes hadn't failed to fly a reasonable time, in fact it had flown over twice the minimum time, and it made a nonsense of the rule to DQ it.
The more rules the more loopholes, keep it simple?
Pete.
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XtraDeepRoller
51 posts
Nov 09, 2009
1:22 PM
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The rules don't "specifically" say that the judge can't take LSD before he judges, so that he only sees pink twinkie twirlers doing perfect 20 bird breaks 5 times a minute, so it must be OK, right??? There is no written rule about it, is there? After all, if every scenario that could happen is not written down in the rules, then it is allowed, that's what I'm hearing.
We are not talking about off the wall interpretations of the rules, we are talking about common sense interpretations of gray areas, that a few looking for loopholes don't agree with, that were not completely spelled out in the rules.
X
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Velo99
2196 posts
Nov 09, 2009
2:09 PM
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X,
Under what rule would you deduct points from a kit? The only rule that deals with a bird down ALWAYS deals with the second bird.
"Except for a 15-bird kit, scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit ("out bird")."
Thats all it says about one bird.
I cant see whats so hard to understand about the first bird being an outbird. Doesnt say if he continues to fly or goes to the bar for a beer. It says,leaves the kit. I dont see a loophole or gray area its pretty cut and dried.
If he rd`s and goes back up after a few minutes still an outbirdand another bird crashes or lands then what do you do? His status has been changed, scoring is suspended until he goes back to the kit. OHHHHH crap I guess its a dq because you arent counting him as part of the kit.
What are you going to write down as your reason for dq`ing the kit? Theres only one bird down. The other is just an outbird.
Hmmmm this is where it gets interesting because you have to figure out where to put those points back you deducted from the breaks with the "down" bird because you have to start scoring the "down" bird. WAIT! The rules dont allow for deduction of point for a single down bird its just the second "down" bird. Now you`re really confused and need a new score sheet.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 2:12 PM
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fhtfire
2194 posts
Nov 09, 2009
2:35 PM
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Kenny,
you are correct Kenny...there is not gray area...it is black and white.....The rules say nothing about the first bird except being out....the second bird is the one that triggers all the issues..
rock and ROLL
Paul
To me...its pretty obvious...
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Scott
2602 posts
Nov 09, 2009
2:49 PM
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The rulers are clear, both first and last are considered down , a down bird is out of play. There is only one recourse if it rejoins the kit which the rules address already, and that is to deduct one bird from each break. Like I said earlier, this is how it would be handled in this final.
( it shall be considered the second bird down. )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 2:51 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
477 posts
Nov 09, 2009
3:20 PM
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I hate to says it, but after reading the rules, I think that we need to have a definiton for a down bird, and what happens once that bird is down. As the rules are currently written a bird out is just an out bird no matter what it does.
It is sad that we need to define something as simple as what a "down bird" is.
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RT Williams
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Scott
2603 posts
Nov 09, 2009
3:36 PM
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RT , as the rules state a bird down is a bird that doesn't right itself within 10 seconds , there can't be a second bird down without a first bird down, this isn't complicated.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2130 posts
Nov 09, 2009
3:52 PM
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Scott
I happen to agree with you, but, I believe that, to you, the rules are very clear. But the rule is poorly written and subject to anyone's interpretation. As you can see....several others see it equally clear as a different interpretation than yours. Neither can be proclaimed as the "correct" interpretation based on the way it is written. But at least we know where you stand, should the issue arise during the competition. This one is like the one that came up last year about a BOP attack that breaks up a kit. Are the birds outbirds? Do they have a certain amount of time to rejoin? Is the kit still scoreable while they are out? That represents another "gray area" in the fly rules.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 3:55 PM
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