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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birmingham roller = Performance?
Birmingham roller = Performance?
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merced guy
36 posts
Jan 04, 2006
8:14 PM
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"A birmingham roller isn't classified by its color or pattern, but by its performance"
"Insistance on having only one particular family or color or origin is not recognizing the goal"
"Your journey to find the Birmingham roller will be most easily accomplished if you simply remember that it is the performance of th bird that makes it a Birmingham roller"
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nicksiders
330 posts
Jan 04, 2006
9:45 PM
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YES!
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motherlodelofts
519 posts
Jan 04, 2006
11:24 PM
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oaky dokey
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Ballrollers
209 posts
Jan 05, 2006
4:26 PM
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Kinda says it all. What source are you quoting? YITS Cliff
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merced guy
37 posts
Jan 05, 2006
5:06 PM
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Cliff,
got it from NBRC May-June 2005 bulletin under the heading, "whats a birmingham roller?"
thong
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Mongrel Lofts
101 posts
Jan 07, 2006
3:57 PM
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"A birmingham roller isn't classified by its color or pattern, but by its performance"
Thong,
So if a Oriental roller can roll 30 feet straight and tight, its a Really a Birmingham roller?
If a red badge competition tumbler rolls well for 20 feet, and many do,, they are really Birmingham rollers? The fact one rolls well, makes them no longer part of the breed they are? It (the Roll) changes them into a Birmingham rollerand changes thier breed?
So if I have a bird that is 3/4 roller and 1/4 ice pigeon but it rolls 20 feet, it is a Birmingham roller? I say BS (Edited; See Posting Policy) to all that make believe.. KGB
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 18, 2006 12:00 AM
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upcd
128 posts
Jan 07, 2006
4:50 PM
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The other side of the coin. Its banded NBRC and only rolls twice. It is not a Brimingham Roller? Or it is but a cull?
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nicksiders
338 posts
Jan 07, 2006
5:16 PM
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What I got of this message is that it is all about performance and has nothing to do with color or size or anything else....I don't understand what Scott and Kenny got out of it.
Nick
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merced guy
39 posts
Jan 07, 2006
9:02 PM
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Than what is a birmingham roller? a roller is a roller, all it does is fly and roll. an oriental roller is still a roller, but because of the similar, but different performance, it is still a roller, a birmingham is a performance standard, as I believe with past posts, no one claims that they have coin the term, if anyone has info on this please share it. A birmingham roller was a cross, it was a mut, how can you cross a mut that is already a mut to began with? I believe you can improve on it with what is now accepted by the mass as a standard, about crossing it with an ice pigeon, that is starting a new breed. No offense the quote was not from me, I just want it to see what you guys think.
thong
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merced guy
40 posts
Jan 08, 2006
11:23 AM
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scott, got your point, I do see whats behind your reasoning.
thong
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J_Star
172 posts
Jan 10, 2006
5:07 AM
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Scott, I’ve seen B rollers that are not worth of anything and I've seen some colored rollers that stand to any pure B rollers. I also seen some Excellent B rollers (Pensoms) and seen some crap colored rollers. So from this, it leads me to believe that the true B rollers are in the air and not on the perch. If they can spin like a true B roller, then they should be classified as such even if they exhibit a bling-bling color.
Like Kenny said awhile back 'bling without the sting' for those colored rollers, but if they sting, which some do, and are just as good, then where is the problem? The problem is really with the feather merchants who pass a pretty crap birds as excellent B rollers.
You said, you don't see a kit of all colored birds. That is not true. If it is, that is because fanciers cull the inferiors and keep only the superiors in both color spectrums. I have seen a full yellow kit that stands to be of excellent performers. I have seen a full kit of all colors that are more like show birds with perfect markings (like perfect bald heads markings) that are excellent rollers also.
So the argument is if they can prove it in the air, then they are worth of keeping no matter what color or their origin is. But to us, who believe in heritage is very keen on keeping the breed to as original as we can and we take pride doing it. Just the same for the color breeders who take pride inserting a different color or marking into their birds successfully and keeping the roll as it was originally or maybe as close. It is all in the eye of the beholder. Thanks and I hope this topic will not become another one of those ugly arguments.
Jay
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Ballrollers
211 posts
Jan 10, 2006
4:40 PM
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Thong,
Let's say you wanted to do some hunting and were in the market for a German Short-haired Pointer. Say you found a breeder that bred among the best pointers and performers in the field, some winning field trials. By looking at these dogs ,they look exactly like German Short-hairs, but some were a little different color. The owner tells you that in all honesty, there was a single remote outcross to a Labrador Retriever in the distant past of this family, and everything since has been bred best to best within the German Short-hair breed..no more to Labs. Now would you call this a different breed of dog, or a German Short-haired Pointer, like the owner does? Would it affect your purchase if it was exactly what you were looking for in a retriever? This gives you a better picture of the scenario in the roller family some so lovingly calls color mongrels. The question to ask yourself is, "Does a single remote outcross in the distant past, truly constitute the creation of a new breed?" The truth is, that this family of rollers have been bred "best to best" roller for anywhere from 25 to 70 years through hundreds of generations with no additional breed outcrosses. Once you have imported the color gene (that was for you, Scott! LOL!) it is not necessary to go back to the outcross. You will have to excuse, Scott. He gets so caught up in the emotion of this issue that it clouds his mind sometimes. He said, "Without constantly going back to the true breed, there is nothing..." That's a bold-faced lie designed to influence those of you who know no better, and he knows it. But we can forgive him. He has what he thinks is the best interest of the breed at heart. The current World Cup winner, Joe Bob Stuka, NBRC Fall Fly winner Jay Yandle, Pa regional winner Dave Strait and hundreds of other competing and winning lofts breed this family of birds. I know of none of these guys who breeds back to another family to "keep the roll", and the North Carolina guys live within an hour or so of me. I know them well, and see their birds fly every weekend. In fact it is just the opposite. Joe Bob (the World Cup winner)told me himself, that if he outcrosses to another roller family to try to add a subtle quality of roll, that he has to keep coming back to the color bird family (which he calls South Carolina birds) for quality and depth and work rate. He leased me four pair of his stock breeders for a year. Five of the eight are Blue Lace, Reduced or Indigo birds. And I would put a kit of these guy's Reduced, Andalusian and Indigo birds up against Scott's pure bred birds for the five grand on any given day. Management, luck and wheather would have a far greater impact on the outcome than the single outcross eons ago and the history of the families. Now take a good look. Who do you really think is trying to cloud or confuse the issue, Thong? YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 10, 2006 4:42 PM
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Ballrollers
213 posts
Jan 10, 2006
7:11 PM
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Well, Scott, we are back to the same ground we have covered before. When you talk about mongrels, I assume you are discussing the family as a whole. Fact is, very few in North Carolina have "mongrelized" the birds as you call it. Most of the breed outcrossing was done elsewhere (in other staes) and the rollers with color modifiers already in place where obtained by Carolina men and bred to the Pensoms. As James Turner told me, regarding the impact of the color modifiers on performance, he believes that it definitely improved the performance of the birds. Not because of the direct impact of the color gene, but he set the bar so high because he knew the birds would come under such close scrutiny and judgement by his fellow men in the sport. So it had to be better. Only the fastest, deepest, best quality spinners qualified for the stock loft; no compromises. The rest of us have chosen this family of rollers to work with because of his success with that breeding program and the superior performance that resulted, and we are breeding our rollers for competition from these birds. All of Joe Bob's original foundation birds were of the James Turner family, to which he has added several other family outcrosses over the years, like most everybody in the sport seems to do. Certainly, not every bird may be considered a color bird as you see it. The family as a whole carries many of the rare colors, Indigo, Andalusian, Almond, Dilute, Reduced. Individual birds may show or carry the color modifier, or neither. As you know, many of Joe Bob's birds that did not show it, carried the reduced gene. So if a bird carries the gene but does not show it, does that consitute a color bird in your mind. Remember, like that German Short-haired Retriever, it may have that breed outcross in its distant past! What about the spread birds and the blue checks and ash reds from the same family? Are they considered mongrels in your mind? It's the same blood line, but maybe not, if it doesn't have the color gene. I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly which birds you are so upset about, and which ones you consider mongrels; not that it is relevant in breeding rollers today, but just so I understand where you are coming from.
YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 10, 2006 7:16 PM
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Ballrollers
215 posts
Jan 10, 2006
7:37 PM
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What made them roll was those foundation Pensoms, of course! And as I said, it was not the "mongrel color" that improved the family, but Turner's committment, knowing that all eyes were on him and his birds, to raise the bar and accept only the very best performance, a standard that he may not have held as high otherwise, he says. That's not too hard to understand. YITS Cliff
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Ballrollers
224 posts
Jan 12, 2006
11:05 AM
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So Scott, On our little wager, we have a few decisions to make and some ground rules that will need your input:
* Does it matter to you if they are Joe Bob's or Jay Yandle's color mongrels?
* 20-bird or 11-bird format? I assume NBRC rules with either choice. It's ok with me if we void the DQ. Flag them up again, continue the clock. I don't care. I am more interested in how they perform against each other in the air. I don't want either of us to be able to say we could have won if a bird hadn't DQ'd us.
* Shall we say that all birds in the kit must have a visible rare color or have a sibling that does, or have one or more birds that have a rare color in their pedigree, let's say within two generations, parents or grand parents? Fair enough? That should qualify them as having mongrel blood, even if it is a black white flight or blue check. I mean, that's the issue isn't it?
* Shall we take Jay's or Joe Bob's word on that or can you identify all the rare colors in the birds? Are you aware of the possible different expressions of the different factors? If not maybe we can trust their word on it. This should cover the ash red mimics and recessive reds that are masking indigo, etc. that may look like standard colors.
* How do we pick a judge? I prefer two. We could each pick one from our area and then swap them out. We'll each pay our judges airfare and put them up for a night or two. Or we could pick them from a more neutral central region of the country.
* Who holds the moneys? In wagers of this type, a neutral party will collect the money and pay off the bet, usually. The money goes on the table before the fly is flown.
* When should we hold it? Spring is probably best when the kits are being prepped for WC. Each flyer can fly when he wants within a 24-48 hour window. Each picks the time of day so we can rule out weather as a deciding factor. The idea is to rule out as many of the "luck" factors as possible to judge the actual performance of the birds against each other s accurately as possible.
* Another option on the wager that might be fun, instead of only you and I betting, would be to throw it out to the hobby and let the purists and the color breeders wager on their winning kit; you know pump it up and let everybody put their money where their mouth is. Guess we could have legal problems, though, if we aren't careful!
These are just a few of the ground rules I could think of. Let me know if there are changes you think are important or if there are others we need to add! YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 12, 2006 4:11 PM
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Ballrollers
225 posts
Jan 12, 2006
4:35 PM
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We're making progress, I think. Let me make sure that I understand you correctly. So if a roller is raised off of a pair of color birds, but itself is not a rare color, you say it is not a color bird and doesn't qualify. Now, you're kidding right? Isn't the issue the breed outcrossed bloodline? Or is it just the color of the feathers, in your mind that makes it a mongrel? Help me out here. Again on the Ash Reds and Recessive Reds. You agree that Indigo is a mongrel color right? Indigo on blue check is easy to i.d. Spread indigo is easy to i.d. (Andalusian). Indigo on an Ash red or recessive red bird wil be hard for you to i.d. It's a color bird, but looks like the non-indigo ash red, except that the red in the neck is a richer red, usually. Is that clearer now? Maybe Brian or David can explain it better. Meanwhile I'll go to work on it. YITS Cliff
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Newflyer
42 posts
Jan 12, 2006
4:42 PM
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Man 'O live...all this talk about COLOR. What is the big deal. Are their only certain colors that B-rollers come in?? Whats the big deal. And all this talk about DOGS..What do they have to do with rollers. A pure bred dog, is a pure bred dog. If their are any other color difference in certain breeds that are supposed to be only certain colors,than that dog is not a pure bred dog. And thats that. Come on Guys, get back to the basics of rollers. Like Ive read in many posts here COLOR does not make a roller.....Performance is what its all about. Please tell ME if I missed something along the way here.
Just my take.......And thanks for reading it
Paul
Last Edited by Newflyer on Jan 12, 2006 4:45 PM
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Fr.mike
49 posts
Jan 12, 2006
6:29 PM
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I cant compete with your guys wallets or your knowlege in genetics but It seems to me that the best ground rule would be three flys. two out of three takes the pot!And the looser agrees to not EVER post his opinion on color or the lack thereof on this site or any other--now were talking real pain!Lol!
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Newflyer
43 posts
Jan 12, 2006
6:32 PM
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Very well said FR mike
Paul
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Mongrel Lofts
104 posts
Jan 12, 2006
7:01 PM
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Cliff/Scott,
So, is this competition one loft against one loft? Or is Cliff going to be combining all the color lofts he can find a good roller in. I ask because of the Joe Bob Jay Yandle comment.. If Scott is going to be flying agianst all the rare color roller lofts in the Carolinas,, they are sure trying to stack the deck.. That sure ups the number to select from.. Just want to make sure I understand the competition. Is this Rare color loft against Birmingham roller loft, or is this,, Birmingham Roller loft, against the many rare colored roller lofts in the Carolinas??
Just so I know if this is David slaying the color giant, or just David slaying a 6' 8' Dentist.. This does look like fun.. Mongrel Lofts,, KGB-Mongrel Slayer,, Ken Billings
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knaylor
37 posts
Jan 12, 2006
7:25 PM
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Cliff, what does Joe Bob have to do with colored birds? A friend of mine just got some pigeons from him and when he was asked about the his colored birds he said that" he doesnt mess with any of that colored crap". I hope he was being truthful with my friend??? Thanks, Kevin
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nicksiders
345 posts
Jan 12, 2006
7:42 PM
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I don't think Scott is 6'8' so Cliff is a Dentist? I heard he was a proctologist......(?).
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fhtfire
286 posts
Jan 12, 2006
9:52 PM
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I think that pooling of birds from different lofts is not fair. One loft of colored birds against one loft of Birmingham rollers. What pride is there in geting birds from everywhere. You should fly birds that you bred cliff. Scott bred his own birds. It should be one loft against one loft. You don't put a regular team against an allstar team.>LOL
I think the 2 out of three thing would work too. If it happens....I will be getting me a ticket to the east coast....LOL!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
335 posts
Jan 12, 2006
11:22 PM
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Was this not the quote to initate the challenge?
"Put a full kit of the so called rare color mongrals together and I will fly against that kit for five grand"
Either some people are getting chicken, or what would it matter if the best color birds from different lofts are in one kit? Are they that good to worry about? If you are going to go to battle, bring the whole friggin Army and take on the world!
If I were Scott, I'd want my adversary to bring his A game, no matter what! I wanna see the best color birds Cliff can find in his area go up against one of the best purebred kit in the state of California. That sells tickets!
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jan 12, 2006 11:23 PM
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highroller
88 posts
Jan 13, 2006
3:09 AM
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really now, who's trying to wiggle out of what? Doesn't a blue check or an ash red check sibbling of a "rare" colored bird carry the same blood? If we're trying to prove that these "mongrel" blood lines are not capable of competing with the "purist" lines we should allow any bird of the same family to compete. Or do we say that Scott can only fly a whole kit of blue bars or a whole kit of red checks etc. against a whole kit of birds all showing color? That would mean (by Scott's thinking) that if he is flying a kit of checks that none of his checked birds may be carrying bar. Come on now either anything from the family blood line is flown or we are not going to see a fair fly.
If the purists want to stand behind the "I'll fly against a whole kit of color birds" and refuse to allow any birds from the color family but not "showing" color to fly then they are affraid of losing and the challenge is a set up to limit the color flyer's chances of winning. If they are so sure they have better birds prove it without trying to limit your competition.
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Mount Airy Lofts
79 posts
Jan 13, 2006
5:52 AM
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You guys crack me up but I am on the side of the pure bred breed (bred from performance from the start of the breed). Funny stuff guys. They don't call it competition for nothing ey?
It takes more then good birds, it takes dedication. Some guys have it, others don't.
A fly off of the Best Pure Bred Birmingham Rollers vs. the Best Color Modifided Performce Bred Rollers would be a show worth watching. I agree with Brian M. here. I smell Pay per View!
Ding, Ding,
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jan 13, 2006 5:53 AM
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Phantom1
85 posts
Jan 13, 2006
8:03 AM
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Hey Scott!
This is getting very interesting. I think where Cliff is coming from might be the following scenario. Say you have a Reduced Blue-Check Cock X Ash Red-Check Hen. Cliff would raise Red-Check Cocks that carry Reduced, but where bred from a "colored bird". Would that be acceptable?
The way I see it, Cliff's SC birds are for all practicle purposes a family. At least in the terms of being bred with, in, and around the dubbed "colored birds". Anything out of that family should be considered to be in the catagory you suggest.
Thanks!
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 13, 2006 8:07 AM
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Phantom1
86 posts
Jan 13, 2006
8:23 AM
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LOL!!!! Okay, I wish you guys the best of luck hashing this one out. If you go with the best 2 out of 3, I'll try to make one of the flys. LOL, LOL!!!!!!!
My misunderstanding here is this. Scott, you've got a family of birds that you consider the real deal. While you look at the birds Cliff has as mongralized BRs. The point I was trying to bring forward is such. You know with utmost certainty that your family is what it is. Your sentiments here seem to indicate that the family Cliff has is not the "real deal".
I regress. Cliff - I guess the phenotypes are going to have be flown, not the genotypes.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 13, 2006 8:40 AM
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Phantom1
88 posts
Jan 13, 2006
9:02 AM
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Cool deal man! I hope you both walk away holding your heads high and have a great time with this!
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Slobberknocker
71 posts
Jan 13, 2006
9:08 AM
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Scott,
I must say thank you for plugging my website....again. I truly do appreciate you and Kenny supporting and visitng the site. As I see it, visitng a site is supporting that site. With all the advertising you guys do for my site and the NPRA site, it sure cuts down on us having to advertise it. Thank you so much Scott and Kenny, again.
Bob
(Edited; See Posting Policy)
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 17, 2006 11:59 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
106 posts
Jan 13, 2006
10:06 AM
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The debate is about rare colored rollers.. The challange was to fly against a kit showing the rare cross bred colors. Not to fly against normal Birmingham roller colors, and give the Mongrel cross breds the credit..
I would think you would want to fly some toy stencil, Pencil, Milky, Mahogany, opal, Indigo,Brown, you get the point, fly some Mongral birds showing all these factors in this colored kit. Since you are pooling from all sorts of colored lofts and the point is to prove they, the mongrel factors can roll like the best and breeding for color improves the roll.. Why wouldn't you want all the Mongrel crossed factors represented by showing their color in this kit? Hmmmmmmmm
Funny, the mongrel colors roll just like the Best Birmingham rollers and we are going to fly a kit of normal colored Birmingham rollers to prove it! That makes no sense and that is not the challange put out by Scott.. KGB
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Phantom1
89 posts
Jan 13, 2006
10:20 AM
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Hi Kenny!
I dig deeper into this challenge. Scott has great confidence in his family and lineage - stating that they are 100% pure, untampered with, Birmingham Rollers. Whereas Cliff isn't making that claim at all.
From the color side of the debate, the Ash Reds, Blues, and Browns are all necessary in successfully breeding for color. Afterall, all the modifiers we have in performance rollers today are based on one of the base colors. Pencil, Milky, Andalusion, are all expressions of modifiers on a base color. They are what they are - Ash Reds, Blues, and Browns underneath. Just as a Blue-Check W/F Bald would still be a Blue-Check - right?
Whether or not someone actively ONLY mates for colors or not, these three basic hard colors will exist. Moreso, they will exist in great numbers in a true Color Breeder's loft. As I said, they're just a necessity to successfully produce what it is you're looking for - color wise. This has to do with a numbers thing as well as having unrelated birds available due to certain fatal genes, etc. If I weren't flying my birds at all, I'd still have the hard colors around to successfully breed the colors I wanted to look at.
Whatever the ground rules are, are to be decided between Scott and Cliff. I can see Scott's point of view and expectations. I can also see Cliff's as having some birds of "color". I think the TRUE challenge here isn't Real Deal v.s. Colored Birds, rather it's Real Deal v.s Something that cannot under any conditions beat the Real Deal. It just so happens that they happen to be of color and color decent. And when you've got color within your family, you're going to have those that are and those that carry these modifiers. Just my two cents.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 13, 2006 10:23 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
336 posts
Jan 13, 2006
11:53 AM
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"So what you are saying is that the only way to do it is by pulling in color birds from everywhere, I agree then and only then is it possible , you are then pulling them out of thousands and thousands bred , I have one team here and two kits of youngbirds."
Are the birds of color so good that such a comment or action would worry you Scott? Come on man, take on the world! The way I see it is that the color birds have a disadvantage and pooling resources would be a great way to even the playing field, especially since they all have to express a "considered rare color". And since there is this venomous and all-powerful purebred motivation, a win shouldnt be a problem, regardless of who's birds are in that kit...right?
This (Edited; See Posting Policy) is so fun to read. Ignorance is truly blissful. I love it. I just don't know who to root for, my friend Scott or the color birds of the world. I like um both, tough decision.
Brian.
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 18, 2006 12:03 AM
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fhtfire
287 posts
Jan 13, 2006
12:12 PM
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It does not matter what the parents look like. Scott said fly a kit of color birds...he did not say fly a kit of color birds that have some blue checks, that have parents or grandparents of rare color....to much taking the word of someone else or a pedigree..each can be manipulated. The kit should have all birds of a rare color. In other words...Scott should be able to open your kit box door and every kit bird should be of a rare color...regardless of parent color. Just the kit birds. That way...you see with your own eyes that they are colored. Then there is no question.
Quit the chit chat....Scott flys his kit, and cliff flys a kit of see with your own eyes color birds. Make this a fundraiser for the NBRC...LOL!! But do the fly..I want to see it.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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highroller
89 posts
Jan 13, 2006
12:54 PM
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As Eric clearly said, there is NOT a host of different colors. All these birds are blue, ash red or brown. Some of them look different because of modifiers present. Whether they look like a blue check or what is refered to as a rare "color" they all come from the same blood. This blood is being put down as being mongrelized. Then in the next breath some are saying a blue or red from this family must be excluded from this competition. Why? Either they are a mongrel or they are not. Did they become purist by not inheriting the specific modifier that runs in the family? There probably will be no fly agreement reached in this one, but hey, it makes for fun reading on a rainy day!
I agree with Brian too, ignorance is bliss.
Hey Scott, nice subtle touch with the name thing there in your reply....by the way my birds ARE ROLLERS.
Dan
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highroller
91 posts
Jan 13, 2006
3:58 PM
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OK Scott, thanks. Just thought maybe because of this whole color issue you were giving me a little jab and not wanting to recognize me as a roller nut, just a flyer of whatever.
Dan
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motherlodelofts
547 posts
Jan 13, 2006
4:06 PM
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No Dan there isn't a single person here that I don't consider a roller nut , we "all" learn from all of this.
Scott
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Ballrollers
226 posts
Jan 13, 2006
5:52 PM
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GENTLEMEN! My, I go away for a day and look what you guys have been up to!! I can't remember when I have had so much fun. It won't be any fun if I have to fork over 5 grand to Scott, but I'm really up for this, if we can get the ground rules set! If we can't agree, by mutual consent and listening to everyone's input from the guys on the list to get a consensus of what is fair, then we both walk away. It's a lot of money. Scott, I can't let you just stack the deck in your favor. There will have to be compromise from both of us to pull this off. It could be a grand event and a lot of fun for the hobby. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I have a bunch myself, so I will try to split them up into different posts! Let's keep working on it!
First of I want to deal with the issue of pulling birds from different lofts. In the challenge, Scott, that I accepted, you said very clearly, "Put a kit of so-called rare-colored mongrels together, and I will fly against that kit for five grand." You made no mention of where they might come from. So I think all my options remain open, about where the birds come from, unless you are backing down from your challenge. Now practically speaking, it is my full intent to fly a kit of "so-called mongrels" from one flyer, somewhere in the country, probably the Carolinas. To pull a bunch of birds from all over and try to fly them with competition rules would be doomed to failure, I believe. But it was sure fun to see you squirming and worried , Kenny, when you posted about the unfairness of Scott's "purebreds" against all the colored rollers in the Carolinas! LMAO! It's good to see that you have a little respect for them after all. Surely, if color birds are nothing but the crap you two have been preaching that they are, it should be of no concern to you! I love it! I would only pull birds from multiple lofts if you paint me in a corner as you are trying to do. So let's go on to the next major issue to settle: MONGREL BLOOD VS MONGREL FEATHERS! YITS, CLIFF, Myth-Masher
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motherlodelofts
550 posts
Jan 13, 2006
6:27 PM
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Paul pick up Pensoms book and look at the pictures of the imports.
Also pick up the Englishman Dexters book "Winners With Spinners , you will see the same and birds not crossed on other breeds for color.
Scott
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Newflyer
46 posts
Jan 13, 2006
6:29 PM
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HET SCOTT......You used my comparison about the DOGS and I thank YOU. But you did'nt answer my question about the foundation colors? Could you please tell me what they are?
It would give me a better understanding about this color
issue.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Newflyer
47 posts
Jan 13, 2006
6:31 PM
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SORRY for the double post
Paul
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Phantom1
91 posts
Jan 13, 2006
6:45 PM
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Paul,
Probably best to start a new thread regarding the foundation colors of the Birmingham Roller. However, The Birmingham Roller by William H. Pensom and Winners With Spinners by Graham Dexter are excellent guides!!! I've read both - try to keep an open mind to what you're reading. Don't take anything out of context and don't try to make believe. Crosses DID occur and they are still going on by many. However, there were more inherit colors in the BR than what many hold to be true today. So many theories and discussions around that. Like I said before, I encourage you to start a new thread because it'll be a doozy!!! LOL!!!!
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Ballrollers
227 posts
Jan 13, 2006
6:59 PM
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MONGREL BLOOD VS MONGREL FEATHERS: For the past two years, now, I have been listening to you, Scott, and to you, Kenny, and to a few others, preaching about the sins of breed outcrossing that was done in this family many years ago, and the damage that James Turner has done to the breed by breeding in rollers with color modifiers obtained from other breeds of pigeons. After all this rhetoric from you guys about mongrel blood and the damage the genes are doing to the BR breed, now you are saying that only the rare-colored birds are the mongrels???? Do you guys mean to sit there and tell me that a blue check or spread black that comes off of two andalusians is not of mongrel blood? Surely you jest! I know that you know enough about genetics to see the failure in that line of reasoning. So your effort is either one of trying to stack the deck in your favor by limiting the pool of birds that I have to pull from (after all, I haven't limited you in any way. You might sneak a spinning black self off of Brian's top Aandalusian hen and I would never know! LOL!) Or is the issue really one of trust. Do you not trust Joe Bob or Jay if they tell you the bird is an indigo ash red, which looks just like standard ash red? You want to be able to look in the kit box and see that they are color birds, right? I assure you that we can show you a pedigree with band numbers intact, to prove the mongrel heritage of each bird in the kit. If I am to accept your pedigree that your birds are, indeed, "purebreds" then I think it is only fair that you accept my pedigree that shows mongrel blood. Exactly what do you consider a mongrel? You have been preaching that ANY MONGREL BLOOD WHATSOVER is a mongrel-7/8ths, 63/64ths, etc. Now you are backing off. What's that all about? Do you really believe what you post on these lists? As I said, I am willing to compromise to the extent that the color bird must be in the immediate parents or siblings. If ANY mongrel blood is unacceptable, as you have said so many times, and will destroy the performance, then what is the problem?
Or are you so arrogant about so-called "purebreds" as to think that in order to compete that I would have to sneak in a "purebred"or two? LOL! So my proposal is that we exchange pedigrees on all the kit birds, to prove mongrel heritage in my kit, and to prove "purebred" heritage in yours. This challenge is bigger than you and I Scott. What it is really about is putting the families (and the philosophies) against each other. Your "pure bred" family, and all its "pure" genetic background, against James Turner's mongrel family, and all it's ice pigeon, homer, frill, (whatever you believe)genetic background that has so damaged their performance in your minds. It's time to put up or shut up, gentlemen. Either you believe what you have been preaching, or you don't. Time to put your money where your mouth is! I repeat, surley you do not think that it is only the birds with the feather colors in the mongrels that can have the profound negative impact on the BR breed. If you have recently changed your philosophy to now accept standard color rollers as purebreds, even if they have mongrel blood, then we need to make that distinction here and now. What say you gentlemen?! If you persist in keeping in this ground rule, you will have lost credibility with your entire argument and philosophy in the roller hobby, but I will STILL take the challenge. (But then I will expect you to compromise on some other issue, and there are several.) If so, I will need a list of color factors that the guys on this list and you, Scott, agree are rare colors, as was started at the top of this thread, but never fully completed and agreed upon. Next: KIT SIZE AND FLY RULES
YITS Cliff, Myth-Masher
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Ballrollers
228 posts
Jan 13, 2006
7:10 PM
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Kevin Naylor, I'm making a BS (Edited; See Posting Policy) call on your friends comment about Joe BOB's comment. First, I see his birds fly on a regular basis. He's only an hour away. Second,I talk with him and hear he and Jay Yandle, who is a master with genetics and colors, discussing color factors and projects. Third, I got four pair of birds from Joe Bob's stock loft two months ago. Five of them are indigo, reduced or blue lace. 'nuff said about that crap.
YITS,
Cliff
Myth-Masher,
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 18, 2006 12:06 AM
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Ballrollers
229 posts
Jan 13, 2006
7:13 PM
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Nick, No I definitely work on the top end, not the bottom end. To be honest, though, there is really not a big difference in the two, except that the one I work in has teeth!! LOL!
YITS, Cliff
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Gregg
1 post
Jan 13, 2006
7:58 PM
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Scott,Cliff
Since you know that Cliff's whole family of birds come from only one source, that source being traditional color/mongrel blood/genes that, Lord forbid, were crossed to a roller some many, many generations back, you know full well that they are all "crossbred" even if they throwback normal colors. That makes them impure in your and KGB's eyes. Anything that is impure should never have a "chance in (Edited; See Posting Policy)" if I follow your reasoning.
So why don't both of you quit this "dance around the subject" routine and get down to the real issue here. You want to knock Cliff off of his high horse. He wants to knock you off of yours.
It seems to me that the really simple "gut check" here is a fly off between your "pure" family and his "impure" family. Let's face it, that's what this is really all about, right? No importing outside birds. The second you both agree to this, you each pick a representative to check out the other's loft, record band numbers, check band numbers available for this year, etc. Let's keep it on the up and up.
I agree with the earlier post. Make it a fund raiser for the W/C or the NBRC. If Scott wins, Cliff writes a check for the W/C. If Cliff wins, Scott writes a check for the NBRC.
If you two dance anymore on this subject, some one is going to find a reason to back out and we will all lose some serious entertainment. Besides, Consider the bragging rights. Heck, that should be worth it alone. Mano a mano, pure loft vs impure loft. That sounds like a horse race to me.
Gregg.
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jan 18, 2006 12:07 AM
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highroller
92 posts
Jan 13, 2006
8:19 PM
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Hey all,
as long as you're talking about tossing the winings toward some club or organization how about considering the NPRA, a club supporting performance rollers of ALL colors/modifiers if the mongrels win?
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Ballrollers
230 posts
Jan 13, 2006
8:49 PM
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KIT SIZE AND FLY RULES: As you know, Scott, here in the Carolinas, because of our committment to quality performance and the firm belief that quality can best be judged in an 11-bird venue, we have developed, and have the most experience flying, primarily, 11-bird kits. Flying 20-bird kits, successfully, is a more recent endeavor in these parts, and there are still many who don't even try, or are still developing the skill. On the other hand, I understand that on the left coast and in the northwest, due to Pensom's influence, the 20-bird kit has been selected as the best way to demonstrate mastery in the art of flying competition rollers. The 11-bird has fallen to the way-side in your area, I believe, along with its more critical eye on quality performance. So for us to choose one venue over the other, might give an undue advantage to either of us, or put the other at a bit of a disadvantage. I propose a compromise competition where each of us flys a 20-bird kit and an 11-bird kit; each competition worth half the wager, or $2500. Fair enough? This issue is tied to the mongrel blood vs mongrel feather issue. If you persist in your fantasy that the birds must display a rare color in order to qualify as "mongrels", and abort your previous position that "mongrel blood" is "mongrel blood", regardless of the amount, it becomes more difficult to field a 20-bird kit from one loft. For those of us who breed for performance, as you know, there are few pairings based on color alone. Most are made based on performance. As a result, though the "mongrel" blood and genes are present, some are recessive and are not displayed. So we may breed fewer actual rare color birds that actually show their mongrel ancestory. Though any of these guys use Turner birds as their base family, I doubt that most breed the total numbers necessary to yield the percentages needed to meet your criteria. It would be like me saying that only blue check selfs or recessive reds are really pure breds and you have to fly a 20-bird kit of blue check selfs or rr. That would be equally difficult for any pure-bred flyer because of the numbers game. It's an unfair burden to impose on either of us. It could be done, on my end, but it would take some time, and we might have to postpone the fly until spring of '07 to give me a chance to breed the birds. Any of us could field a kit of 11 indigo and andalusians and take you on heads up in an 11-bird venue right now...but 20 would take at least another breeding season to develope. So if you allow all mongrel blood in, rather than only those that have pretty feathers, we can make this happen sooner.
KGB mentioned his alarm that the match would pit your single loft against all the color lofts in the Carolinas and their combined experience. I wish to remind you that this match pits you, a seasoned veteran of many years of national and international competitions, against me, who is new to the arena of competition, with only a single national competition under my belt, and an upcoming first international competition. Those could hardly be construed as fair odds. So I reserve the right to use the birds of any breeder and flyer of "mongrel" James Turner family birds with comparable experience to yours (like Jay or Joe Bob) so as to level the playing field.
As to the Fly Rules, things may get a little testy here. Here is my take on it. The NBRC fly rules were voted on and approved by the entire NBRC flying members. The World Cup rules were developed and modified by a small committee of men and were not voted on or approved by the WC flyers. I realize that you were one of those members and the WC committee and fly rules are near and dear to your heart, as are the NBRC fly rules for me. We are not flying in a world class event. We are flying in the United States to settle a score among our own flyers, where the NBRC is our mother organization.The NBRC fly rules are the better choice. I suppose the obvious compromise, here, is to fly the 20-bird under the WC rules and the 11-bird under the NBRC rules, and that is how I propose that we handle it. Let's hear what you have to say.
YITS,
Cliff
Myth-Masher
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Ballrollers
231 posts
Jan 13, 2006
8:57 PM
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Welcome aboard, Gregg. I share your perspective. It levels the playing field considerably. That, doesn't appear to be what Scott is interested in, however. Let's see what he comes up with. I hope the rest of you guys will weigh in on this as well. If I am being unreasonable, speak it! If you feel that Scott is stacking the deck, say it's so.
YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 13, 2006 9:01 PM
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Phantom1
92 posts
Jan 13, 2006
9:48 PM
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Cliff,
I think that your proposals are fair and just. I'm going to call it as I see it. Scott has an established family with a lineage that he holds dear and true to his ambitions and goals. He has more to lose in this challenge. You've stated the short falls openly and honestly regarding what the birds in you area have bred for. You trying to pull from you're own lofts to bring 20 birds together (I don't know the timeframe) is understandably a concern to the effect of a level playing field. I used to teach 7 year-olds to do back flips. I could show them how it was done personally in less than 5 seconds, but that didn't mean that they could do it out of the gates with no practice, training, and coaching.
You guys are going to have a lot of fun if this comes to fruition. I further believe that it will do a great justice to the sport and the hobby. Regardless of the outcome, I sincerely hope that both sides of the roller fence are seen and appreciated for what they are. And the biggest hope that I have is that you and Scott both walk away with a greater appreciation for each other as individuals and for the birds that you each keep.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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