Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
860 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:36 AM
|
Hey Scott, let me see if I can understand what you are saying...
Do you mean that there are people who say that the Birmingham Roller is any pigeon that demonstrates a specific level of rolling performance as expressed by Bill Pensom in his writings regarding what IS a Birmingham Roller? That only a bird performing in a certain manner can be called a BR?
If so, then if I crossed some kind of roller to a racing homer and after a series of matings got the offspring of this homer to spin with the proper performance, it can be called a Birmingham Roller?
Or, if I crossed some kind of roller to a common street pigeon and after a series of matings got the offspring of this common street pigeon to spin with the proper performance, it can be called a Birmingham Roller?
Is this what I understand you to be saying, that there are those that hold this view Scott?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
motherlodelofts
1004 posts
Dec 02, 2006
12:22 PM
|
That is exactly what they are saying Tony , then on top of it they say there is no standard and say that you should breed them any way you like, figure that one out LOL LOL
Of coarse the one's saying that don't have a clue on what a good bird is either and accept any thing rolling as being good, kinda like when you are on a fly and you have a few oohing and awwing over some deep frequent bird rolling like a cull,they just don't know any better.
Scott
|
belle
53 posts
Dec 02, 2006
1:59 PM
|
your right Scott, the Birmingham Roller is a performing breed, the standard of the bird should be based on performance.
|
Velo99
687 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:35 PM
|
OK once again because it is apporopriate for this thread.
The National Pigeon Association has a standard for the bird itself. The NBRC has the standard for the competetion side of our sport. Several years ago there was a "dual purpose roller" for both show and competetion. The result was an inability to meet both standards in most cases.
The men who kept competetion standard thru these many years have commited thier lives to moving the breed forward.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
motherlodelofts
1009 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:46 PM
|
Kenny, the NBRC has nothing to do with the performance standard of the Birmingham Roller , the performance standard is universal.
Scott
|
Velo99
689 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:57 PM
|
Scott,
Is there a difference in the standard as well as scoring from organization to organization? Some locals use a 20` roll as the starting point. For there to be a performance standard the has to be an organization to comply to it.I agree there should be a universal standard applied to the BR, but is there? Please enighten me Obi Wan Scottobi.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
861 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:15 PM
|
Okay Scott, thanks. I'll get back to you later...
To anyone, are there any published documents or threads by a founder, officer or other official on the NPRA site that would tend to support my examples as asked of Scott who agreed with my characterization (homer and common pigeon) of what he understands the NPRA's stance to be as to what is a true BR?
Is there anywhere out there an official club officer or official representative of the NPRA that would agree or disagree with Scott's understanding of the NPRA's position as to what constitutes a BR by thier standards?
If so, would you please explain how you would agree or disagree with my examples of the homer and common pigeon? Looking forward to a reply.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
motherlodelofts
1010 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:22 PM
|
Kenny, there is a difference between performance standard and standarized rule's.
The standard for qaulity come's first (or should) the rules placed on top of the standard is what is used for competition.
No the performance standard does not change, but some will tolorate lesser standards though, also there are quite a few judges that judge by no qaulity standard at all.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 4:24 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1011 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:38 PM
|
Fire it up Tony LOL LOL LOL
|
MILO
46 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:43 PM
|
Every time I get worked up over some topic on a list or some controversial thread, I have to laugh to myself, take a couple steps back and think..."My god, these are pigeons here." Then, at the same moment, I realize, "Hey, these are MY pigeons." Guys, here is a thought... Sometimes, the best thing to do in a case like this is to start all over again. What does this mean? Well, it means to walk away from the mess we are standing in, and create a new standard. Create an new organization to support it and protect the standard. How about the Black Country Performing Roller? or whatever? The BCPR. I would gladly walk away from the title Birmingham Roller, if it meant preserving the performance traits of our breed. Is the NBRC the best thing going right now? I think so. could it be better? I wonder. I like the sound of the GPRA. Global Performing Roller Association. Is this reinventing the wheel? I've always thought, it's broke, and we need to fix it. Blesphemy you say...LOL Don't think this would be a club of exclusivity, as some would think it. It's a way to start over, fresh. Here is the standard...Oh you don't like the standard? OK, go kick rocks pal. Go raise them "Birminghams." It would be like showing up to a Sunday afternoon Doberman lawn show, with a five legged doberman. "Mmmmm, that's really interesting and unique. Fred! Crab me the handbook. Nope, Sorry, Dobies have to have four legs. Kick rocks pal." That's about it. Creating a new standard, and a new organization, you don't walk away from the dedicated breeders of a non-concrete standard. You regroup, take them, and find a whole new world of interested breeders and fliers ready to sign on. The arguments that go on today have both sides of the fence confused...From Pensoms mysterious Yellow Rollers to the size of his kitchen sink. Think of Pensom like Lincoln or Washington. Lot different now huh? We need new leaders, new ideas. Would the top 500 fliers in the world have the balls to move on? It can be taken to an even higher level. Crazy? Thinking out loud.
c
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 3:46 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
862 posts
Dec 02, 2006
4:15 PM
|
Hey Milo, I am seeking understanding and world peace. LOL
I would like my post to be responded to by the appropriate parties if at all possible, otherwise the current confusion of misunderstanding will continue to reign.
There is NO reason for this thread to become anything other than a congenial attempt to understand the NPRA's position on the issue of what actually IS a Birmingham Roller.
Because some see Scott as the devil himself for the way he articulates his position, I thought it appropriate to ask him some questions about it. I am not done with him as of yet. Who knows who else or what organization is on the "witness list". lol
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerpigeon1963
113 posts
Dec 02, 2006
4:42 PM
|
Guys,
I don't believe there is a standard for nothing when it comes to rollers. Yes I said rollers!! its guidelines! guidelines on what each club wants to follow! Just as each rollerman sets for himself year after year. Each set of guidelines are to be as followed by who ever sets them. You don't follow those guidelines then you can't play in there game. Pretty plain and simple!!!
The guideline of each club should be set by the members of that club.
How hard is that? If you want to join that certain club you follow there guidelines or else.
If the club says your birds have to have a crest then by all means you have to have crested birds or else!
For one to call there birds Birmingham rollers I would think they would have to originally from Birmingham England. And should be bred pure to others to keep the name Birmingham Rollers. That's not a guideline but just a fact. If you breed something else into them then can you really call them Birmingham Rollers? No matter how many times you bred it back to a Birmingham Roller?
Just my 2 cents here.
Best of luck
Brian Middaugh
|
rollerman132
33 posts
Dec 02, 2006
6:32 PM
|
It’s like crossing a collie with a pit bull, it’s still a dog but not a pit bull or collie but a mix breed, once a breed is established, anything added to it makes it a mongrel. Just because it rolls doesn’t make it a Birmingham roller. What they should start calling it is an American Roller and leave it at that.
|
Ballrollers
495 posts
Dec 02, 2006
7:12 PM
|
Tony,
As usual, Scott is all wet, again. You should know by now that his ability to duplicate information is practically nill, and prone to be altered and distorted by his personal agendas. (I love ya, Scott, but you know it's true). As a member of the NPRA, I can tell you that, to the best of my knowledge, it takes no stand, whatsoever, as an organization regarding the definition or the standard of the true Birmingham Roller. They are well-aware that the issue is embroiled in controversy and they seek to avoid the issue, choosing instead to let every roller man sort that out for himself. In fact, the president of the organization and several other board members and members at large, choose to avoid the controversy totally, and refer to their family of birds simply as performing rollers. An individual may have posted an opinon on the NPRA site, which is similar to what you and Scott are alluding to, but this in no way represents the opinion of the organization or its members as a whole, just as the opinions represented on this site do not reflect, necessarily, your personal opinion or phiolosphy regarding the breed, Tony.
Scott is confused by a recent discussion on the site about the crieria by which rollers should be certified; quality, speed, frequency, style, or depth. The NPRA represents men in the roller hobby who breed and fly a wide variety of rollers, including BR, NAHF, Fireballs, Appleberry rollers, and Orientals. Many of its members breed several of these families. Some fly only one family. There was a recent investigation by some members into trying to establish a certification standard that would include the BR, as well as the high flying, deep rolling breeds. Some men believe that there should be a return to Pensom's description of performance qualities of rollers as include twizzling and plate rolling at the end of the roll, especially after the 80-100 ft. roll of the high flying deep rolling families or strains. The idea was to judge only the roll, in those cases, and accept that those deep performers may not, physically, be able to snap out of it like a shallower 20-30 ft. spin, and that that factor alone should not negate the performance. But when the attempt was made to include all the different families, each possessing different performance characteristics, under a standard that is all-inclusive, those that breed BR were opposed to it on the basis that it represented a dumbing down of the existing standard in any way shape or form. An extensive debate followed and the whole idea was scrapped because no consensus of opinion on the issue could, yet, be reached. Those are the facts, gentlemen, to the best of my ability to duplicate them.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 7:16 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
863 posts
Dec 02, 2006
7:15 PM
|
Tony.The NPRA dosn't have a position on the issue of what actually IS a Birmingham Roller.Why would they when no one else can say what a Birmingham Roller really is and back it up with facts in this present day and time.However I still call mine Birmingham Rollers just to agitate and since they meet the only Standard ever written for a Birmingham Roller why shouldn't I.LOL.
The NPRA is a Performing Roller Assn.Which includes Oriental Rollers,North American High Flying Rollers,Birmingham Rollers,Fireballs and any other Roller that rolls in the air.
Scott sees something about Certifying a roller that twizzles or plate rolls at the end of the roll and jumps to conclusions that the NPRA is going to Certify BRs when it was the Oriental Rollers etc. etc.
The NPRA is there for anyone who wants to belong to it but is really looking to pull the Hobby together especially to those that has no other Club that will allow them to participate in.Mainly the Backyard flyer that like to fly his birds but has no intention of competing with them.Someplace where everyone can talk about whatever type of pigeon they raise or fly.
The NPRA is not in competition with any other club nor will it ever be.Neither is it out to destroy or mislead anyone.
So again I say the NPRA has no Issue on what a True Birmingham Roller really is. David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
864 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:10 PM
|
So Cliff and Dave, putting everything else you just posted aside, (we'll address those things later if you please) would the example of the crosses in my original posts be an accurate portrayal of an example of a true BR in your opinion?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
motherlodelofts
1012 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:19 PM
|
Cliff, deep Rollers should snap out clean as a whistle also, and good one's most certainly can, culls can't.
Never ever has twizling,plate rolling been accepted at the end of a roll, Cliff all that is ,is a cull trying to regain control and nothing else.
So lets just call them something else instead of shooting straight and just call them junk, oaky dokie.
No confusion on my part, the good news is after yesterday they seem to want to take it in the right direction and have done a complete about face (hmmm you guys can thank me later) with the exception of justifing culls such as those above and calling them something different.
Tony I think that Dave in his denial just answered your question LOL.
Here is another by one of the officers : "So and so wants to see it this way, others completely opposite. We have to account for this breed or this "family" of rollers, or the highly labeled Birmingham Roller - which as many of you know I am truly and sincerely convinced is no longer a breed of any kind - rather a description of a breed that originated in England somewhere. "
Shoot you can go back and pull this stuff off of this site here, without opening up the can of worms of the mongral color birds , all any of this is , is nothing more than an attempt to justify cross bred color birds.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 9:21 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
832 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:21 PM
|
Question, if your parents were both from England, born and raised there, then immigrated to America and popped out a little feller, would that little feller be English or American?
Rollerman132, there is already a breed called the American Roller whose origins loosely date back to before Pensom arrived here and brought his rollers from Birmingham.
|
motherlodelofts
1013 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:26 PM
|
Question, if your parents were both from England, born and raised there, then immigrated to America and popped out a little feller, would that little feller be English or American?
And what does this have to do with the mating habits of Wombats ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 9:27 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
833 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:45 PM
|
Wombats are solitary marsupials that seek each other out during mating season which is from April to June. A Wombat reaches sexual maturity at two years of age. The gestation period is 20-22 days at which point the incomplete developed newborn crawls into its mothers pouch and attaches itself to a nipple for six months.
I hope that answers your question about breeding wombats..LOL.
Can you answer my question?
|
Ballrollers
497 posts
Dec 02, 2006
10:09 PM
|
Tony,
I'll defer my personal opinion to the one the scientists and the geneticists tell us; that after a certain number of matings, ABSOLUTELY, the genetic makeup of this bird will be Birmingham Roller.
Scott,
Nice try....The issue of making any possible changes in the certification standards for the NPRA, as an organization, was closed a week ago.
Just trying to keep the facts straight, here, guys.
YITS,
Cliff
Myth Masher
|
motherlodelofts
1014 posts
Dec 02, 2006
10:15 PM
|
Yea sure it was , and sure you are Cliff LOL
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 10:36 PM
|
nicksiders
883 posts
Dec 02, 2006
10:27 PM
|
Cliff,
Who is the scientist or the genetics person? If you have bred into the BR a new color modifier, as long as that modifier is carried by the bird it can't be a full BR.
It is a different bird with a different genetic profile.
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
luis
3 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:20 AM
|
Hey guys:
As stated before i'm new on the block and love all yo'alls passion on this thread but all this posting on the subject is very redundant.How about starting a new one wich is more informative to the newbie.Since this all kinda started around those lines.
Just a thought !!
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
865 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:30 AM
|
Tony.In my opinion there is no such thing as a Pure Birmingham Roller in the U.S. at this time.
I don't really understand what you are asking on this thread but suppose you tell me what you consider a Pure Birmingham Roller is and maybe we can go from there.
Scott. What is your opinion of a Pure Birmingham Roller? David
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 5:33 AM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
865 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:44 AM
|
Hey Luis, I am doing research with this thread, I apologize for it being redundant, just trying to get some people on the record and clarify my understanding as to what others believe about what a Birmingham Roller truly is and cite thier sources.
I want to pursue this in a way that is not attacking or threatening those with differing positions.
Once I am done, I have the hope that you, myself and others interested in the BR will benefit from the accumulation of knowledge and opinions.
As of now, this thread has been civil, I hope we can keep it that way or I will be compelled to remove offending posts that seek to take it in another direction, intentionally or not.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
866 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:52 AM
|
Hey David, I really appreciate your input up to now. I am researching at this point, not trying to state an opinion. I am approaching this as a reporter looking for the facts regarding this alleged controversy.
The only opinions that will be valid to me for the sake of my project here are the ones that can be backed up and verified with the proper materials.
An opinion based on nothing is worthless. Is your opinion and that of others based on nothing or did you and others research the topic and find the available evidence supported your opinion?
Let's go there.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Newflyer
84 posts
Dec 03, 2006
6:13 AM
|
Tony , you post a very interesting thread.Very controversal to say the least. I look at it this way. Everyone that has answered this post is RIGHT. Thats right....everyone has their own idea of what IS. Its like in the dog world. Their are show dogs,their field dogs and obedience dogs. Take the same breed of dog in all 3 cases. First,thier is a standard for that particular breed, in which show dogs follow very strickly.Secondly,their is a standard for the field dog and lastly thier is NO standard for the obedience dogs,except that the obedience dog look as close to the original dog standard as possible. i.e. a dobernam with 5 legs would not work in any standard. LOL
And is their a WRTIIEN standard of the BR?? Same goes for the BR. Show standards and Competition Standards. But neither applies to each other as we see it today. Too many other factors are involved here.Crosses,commons different types of preforming birds.Granted all are considered rollers, But not B/rollers.Unless their is a written standard for the Birmingham roller(souly),to me it looks like everyone has their own inturpration of what the standard should be. Now this is just me take on this post. I may be entirely WRONG, but its just my take. Thanks for your time
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 6:21 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
866 posts
Dec 03, 2006
6:26 AM
|
Tony.O.K. that helps.LOL.
In my last post I said Pure Birmingham Rollers.Now that I understand what you are asking I will change my thinking.And you did say True not Pure.
Fact.Lewis Wright wrote the Standard of a True Birmingham Roller some time back in another Century.Bill Pensom had said on many occasion that he like to quote this standard.
It was something to this effect.I may not have it worded just right.
"A True Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity like a spinning ball for a considerable distance."
My opinion.Any roller that can perform this feat according to the standard is a True Birmingham regardless of parentage,color,character,type etc.
I also am of the opinion that after all these years if a better Standard for the Birmingham Roller could have been made then surely someone would have done so.
Fact.Bill Pensom said that there is no other Roller or Tumbler who can perform such an act as the Birmingham Roller.
Fact.I agree 100% and will continue to call my rollers Birmingham Rollers untill such time as the standard is changed or am convinced that there is proff otherwise. David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
867 posts
Dec 03, 2006
7:37 AM
|
Thanks David for the additional input.
So it is a fact that Lewis Wright is attributed this statement. Up to now, no one disagrees that this is what he described as it related to the BR. Questions:
Was he appointed by an official body to come up with the definition of the BR? Is that why he came up with this? Or was there another context for it?
Could he have been merely describing in general terms what dictionary.com might call of the adjective "TRUE":
• Biology: Conforming to the type, norm, or standard of structure of a particular group
• Animal Husbandry: Purebred
• Conforming to or consistent with a standard, pattern, or the like
• Of the right kind
• Properly so called
• Rightly answering to a description
• Legitimate or rightful
What Pensom said is not relevant yet for my project. I want to understand how this quote of LW came to be and its context.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 7:40 AM
|
Velo99
691 posts
Dec 03, 2006
7:56 AM
|
This is simply an observation of David`s post. Tony,if you delete it n/p.
I do believe the statement is taken out of context. It refers to a true Birmingham Roller in the animal husbandry context, not any bird that rolls. All the standards were written for true Birmingham Roller,in my opinion. After all the book Pensom wrote is entitled "The Birmingham Roller".
jmho
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
868 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:22 AM
|
Tony.Good Luck in finding the answers you are looking for.I have searched for years and that one statement many years ago is the only printed document of LW's statement that has ever been written of what a True Birmingham Roller is.
As I said before you would have thought that after all these years someone would have defined the BR to a more certain Standard.People have changed everything else about the roller(such as Comps.,Shows etc)to suit the need as they arose why don't someone write a Standard that is just for Birmingham Rollers.Cut and Dried.Noone could argue the point that way.Why has it been a closed Standard for 100s of years?
The only answer I have come up with has been what Pensom said and that was only a BR could perform to this standard.
As Kenny said:Maybe it has been taken out of context but if so why hasn't someone came forward after all this time and corrected it?
In my opinion now is the time to do it.I think Camillo suggested something like this.I know he dosn't like what I post but I agree with him.It is time for someone to set the standard of what a Birmingham Roller is,Start a Club and let everyone who qualifys of having True Birmingham Rollers join.
If not our children will be having these very same questions 50 years from now and still not having any answers.LOL. Just my thoughts.David
|
3757
95 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:59 AM
|
The problem is this. What time point in history do we use. Do we use the time period of Skidmore, Richards, Harry Young or Bellfield or before. If so, do we go back to individual competitions were one bird went up against another? How many of individual's have truly researched the history of the Birmingham Roller? In the original book "The Birmingham Roller written in 1876 there are pictures of birds that look exactly like West of England's. I would be willing to bet you that almost 99 percent of the people on this forum do not have a loft of Birds resembling West of England's. These birds were Birmingham's and the research shows that at one point (even as Pensom stated) they were all Muffed at one time. Now, there are some text that speak of the ancient Egyptians who had birds that tumbled and these birds went to Asia and Europe more than a thousand years ago. At what point did the birds become Birmingham's? Actually, no one knows the answer but most historians believe that it was in the mid to late 1800's. Do we really know how pure our birds are? Someone mention Doberman's. "Herr Doberman crossed old-type German Shepherds with German Pinschers to achieve his perfect dog. Rottweilers, Black-and-Tan Terriers, and Greyhounds also added to the brew." Now we have a "pure" dog. Well, this was just around 1890. The description that Lewis Wright gave was only on Performance. I am what people would call a "Pensomite" (an individual who keeps birds that are directly descendant from Bill Pensom's loft) and have bred my birds in individual pens for 35 years but and I know that most of the arguments are only biased opinions with no scholarly facts and data behind the arguments. Let's move on.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:48 AM
|
motherlodelofts
1019 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:42 AM
|
What do I think Dave ? silly thread , the only reason that it is even brought up is due to some crossing in other breeds into the Birmingham Roller for nothing more than color and wanting to justify the polluting of the breed.
Most take the breed serious though, others don't (crossing in other breeds like a little kid is proof of that) , it is really quite that simple.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 11:55 AM
|
ROLLERMAN
47 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:06 PM
|
Brian
The answer to your little riddle would be the the baby would an american of english decent, and if were still talkeing about rollers has any one wondered if there are any laced rollers in england. And if there are we realy cant call them american rollers then. After all the europeans have been messing around and ex perimenting with live stock and fowls and the likes for hundreds of years, just thinking aloud. maybe we can blame some one else so we can end this nonsense.
AL
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 12:08 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
870 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:09 PM
|
Scott. So what would you say the percentages are of the ones that are crossing in other breeds to the True Birmingham Roller compared to what you would call True Birmingham Roller Fanciers? David
|
rollerman132
34 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:27 PM
|
According to NPRA mission statement the organization was formed to provide a place for color breeders to share information in a non-threatening environment. Sounds like a shelter for battered color breeders, are you guys threatening those poor color breeders again, shame on you.
|
motherlodelofts
1021 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:36 PM
|
Very low Dave,
Keep in mind that my contact with pigeon guys is pretty much limited to mainstream flyers that take the breed serious , so no they don't mess with that stuff and few would let it on the property including myself.
Of coarse there is a whole under world of just pigeon keepers that that don't take them serious and keep such birds mainly because they don't know the difference (I was one of those)
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 12:40 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
868 posts
Dec 03, 2006
1:34 PM
|
Hey Dr. LD, what historians are you referring to? How can I find out who they are and how to contact them? Thanks!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
rollerman132
35 posts
Dec 03, 2006
1:47 PM
|
And they said this site was only about rollers, I want to see the midget Nazi clowns (LMAO)
|
3757
96 posts
Dec 03, 2006
2:51 PM
|
Tony - Fulton etc. have been died for almost 100 years but the written material is around. I recently purchased an old collection of pigeon books including the ones I quoted from. I have published many peer review articles in the academic world and I am in the process of putting out a Roller book (since I am also a historian that has collected this material for 40 years) that contains historical data with references. This will clear up all of the lies hearsays and the like that are filled with bias and untruth. I will send you a list of some of the rare books that were written in the 1800's.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:49 AM
|
Mongrel Lofts
233 posts
Dec 03, 2006
3:31 PM
|
Tony,
As far as a roll standard goes,, we all know the roll standard for a Birmingham roller.. What do I or we consider to be the breed Birmingham roller, I would say birds that were imported to this country and bred pure within the Birmingham roller family are pure Birmingham rollers.. Any Roller that was crossed in America to another breed of pigeon other than a Birmingham roller for color, feather or any other reason is no longer a member of the Birmingham roller breed and is a newly created breed by the crosser of the breeds.. Simple enough for even Cliff and Dave to understand,, KGB
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
872 posts
Dec 03, 2006
3:57 PM
|
Kenny(KGB) How does 99% of Roller fanciers know if what they have are True Birmingham Rollers or that something was crossed into them before they got them?
It's not as easy for me to understand as you may think.LOL. David
|
spinner jim
11 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:11 PM
|
hello guys,after reading all your posts in this catagory with great interest,i consulted my book on pigeons dated 1876 from cover to cover,it mentions all breeds at that time but no mention of the br,does anyone know when the br came about i would be very interested to know,thanks,jim.
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 4:12 PM
|
Mongrel Lofts
234 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:19 PM
|
David,
You can start here.. If it has Pencil,toy stencil, brown or any of the other factors, colors or patterns added and crossed from other breeds in the background,, its not a Birmingham roller.. If the guy you got your birds from, is known to have worked on crossed up color projects you don't have Birmingham rollers. If the man you got your birds from is not concerned with the breed Birmingham roller, but thinks its just a performance standard and any pigeon that can roll is a Birmingham roller,, you don't have Birmingham rollers. You may have a hard time finding pure Birmingham rollers if you can't trust anyone that has kept the breed pure David. I know many Men that have kept the breed pure as the day they came to this country. I know you would question their birds. But I assure you,, there are many pure Birmingham roller breeders in this country who would not touch a crossed up roller.. One thing is for sure,, You can at a glance at a mans breeders tell if he has crossed up colored rollers that are for sure not pure.. Go look at the pictures on the NPRA site and you will see what Birmingham rollers do not look like.. KGB
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 4:21 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
873 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:23 PM
|
Scott.It wasn't meant to be a low question.
You said:What do I think Dave ? silly thread , the only reason that it is even brought up is due to some crossing in other breeds into the Birmingham Roller for nothing more than color and wanting to justify the polluting of the breed.
You are the one that keeps bringing the subject up about people crossing breeds into the Birmingham Roller and polluting the breed.I thought that surely you would have an idea of the approx. number of the ones doing this.
I will make it simplier.How many people do you actually know of who crosses another breed into the BR.
Joe Urbon said he visited someone's loft and saw he did.Thats positive proof.How many others knows first hand anyone who does this?Help me to understand how big of a problem this is.
Scott I live in a very small part of the world too and untill I got a computer I didn't realize just how small my little plot is.Thats why when I get someone like Brian Middaugh or Don Simpson in my backyard I want to adopt them.LOL. David
|
Mongrel Lofts
235 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:34 PM
|
David,
How about this. Can we agree that if you know for sure the birds were crossed on other breeds to bring in a color then they are for sure not Birmingham rollers.. If you know the rollers you have were crossed on other pigeons breeds in America after they were imported here,, they are not Birmingham rollers.. Can we agree if we know the rollers have been crossed in the last 30 years or so, they are not ZBirmingham rollers? KGB
|
Alan Bliven
342 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:46 PM
|
Tony,
Pigeons are of one species just as humans are of one species. Within those species there are many different races (in humans) or breeds (in Pigeons)
Your question can be answered with a simple analogy. If a Dutch man and all of his ancestry was Dutch with the exception of his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandfather who was a black African, is he considered to be Dutch or of mixed race?
That's the way most of these colorful Rollers are. For example, we have evidence of Almond being in the Birmingham Roller at least 50 generations ago. Most of the more modern factors have at least 10 generations which is more than my imaginary Dutch friend had.
Are Show Rollers not Show Rollers because they introduced the Modena into them many generations ago for bigger size?
Are Indian Fantails not Indian Fantails because 10-20 generations ago they introduced another breed into them to change the standard?
Genetic experts say it takes 8 generations to breed out every trace of the other breed. Go on the genetic forum and ask them. Almost every breed of Pigeon has had other breeds introduced into it along the line, many of those projects are going on as we speak. Does that mean we have no true breed of Pigeon?.. People need to get out more and see what's going on in the world.
I admire the men who gave us such wonderful color factors in the Birmingham Roller and were able to keep the roll in them to where they even are winning the World Cup. You can't argue with success. I call it progress.
If these extremist's ideas are correct, I'll have to tell my Dutch friend he's not really Dutch, he's just a mongrel.
----------
Alan
|
knaylor
323 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:50 PM
|
Alan, who has done this??? I admire the men who gave us such wonderful color factors in the Birmingham Roller and were able to keep the roll in them to where they even are winning the World Cup. You can't argue with success. I call it progress
Also the Show Roller was established as a new breed because of the fact that Modena was brought in. They used to be shown as a roller. This did not happen too long ago.
Stan you have the great chance to prove us all wrong!!! Just enter the w/c and show us!! If you do I will match Kenny Hartmans offer on you entry fee!! Its up to you.
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2006 5:44 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1023 posts
Dec 03, 2006
4:56 PM
|
So Allan , how is that cross breeding, color breeding project coming along ?
Scott
|