nicksiders
2682 posts
Apr 18, 2008
5:05 PM
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When breeding two breeds together what is the off spring called? Isn't it a mongrel? What other words can be used?
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kcfirl
412 posts
Apr 18, 2008
5:29 PM
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Eventually it can be called a new breed.
Firl
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George R.
502 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:05 PM
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A broken wheel
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Ty Coleman
200 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:06 PM
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NICK- WHY MUST U ALWAYS TRY AND CAUSE TROUBLE? EVERY ONE HAS HEARD YOUR OPINION GIVE IT A REST.AND YES I TOOK THE BAIT-MAN GIVE IT A REST
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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kopetsa
549 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:10 PM
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One Question.. Ty what are you talking about? Why do you say he is trying to cause trouble?
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Andrew
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 6:11 PM
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Ty Coleman
203 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:20 PM
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THE WORD MONGREL IS A DEROGATIVE WORD. THE WORD CROSS COULD HAVE BEEN USED BUT THAT WOULD NOT FIT NICKS OBJECTIVE.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 6:30 PM
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kopetsa
550 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:26 PM
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Well I dont think that he meant to cause trouble in any way.
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Andrew
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rollerpigeon1963
242 posts
Apr 18, 2008
6:48 PM
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Nick,
Since you put it this way I guess you and I both have mongrels in our lofts? am I correct? You want to keep pushing that button I guess it will fall back in your lap soon enough. Because the Birmingham was started as a mongrel.
If your a region 5 director and talk like this what kind of image are you putting out there for the roller hobby? are they your thought or the thoughts of the NBRC? And are you going to be straight forward & honest if someone is flying a kit of color birds? if they do very well will you tell them great job? And wasn't you the one that wanted everyone to make sure everyones membership was current? if not rejoin!! man if this don't stink I don't know what does.
If I had a regional director ask me if I had mongrels or rollers I would think twice about flying. Just don't sound good to me. When I was regional and state director I didn't care if they flew ducks. As long as we got them to fly and participate. Then we can help them in any way we possibly can down the road. But would never tell someone there birds is mongrels.
So to let everyone know that my entire loft is mongrels. Everyone is of a natural roller color but they started out as a mongrel.
Nick you can have all the fun with this post of mine you want. But it won't change my mind of my impression of you. And I would say if I was in your region I doubt I would fly. I don't think I would even send in my money to help knowing what you think of some of the guys birds who fly!!!
Brian Middaugh
Minford Ohio
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nicksiders
2684 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:06 PM
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Brian,
I don't buy it. All breeds have had a little bit of dubious breeding in thier back ground. But, there comes a point in its history that it is called what it has become. From that point it is up to us as breeders to protect the integrety for which it is named. The intentional and continual mixing of other breeds into it should be considered taboo.
Nick
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nicksiders
2685 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:16 PM
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Brian,
I would never have the adasity to ask any member what they have; if they roll they are rollers ain't they? My opinions about there birds will never be given unless asked. To somebody else my birds may be mongrels and If I am told that they are why in the hell would that upset me? His opinion is just that; his opinion and I would not care if he was the NBRC's president. So why would anyone be upset with the opinion of a RD?
Brian, I am going to work my ass off for my region and the NBRC and I don't think anyone will be ducking out of competition because I am thier RD.
I think very highly of you and I have always thought you thought highly of me as well. It saddens me that you don't and probably never have. I hope the people in my region do not share your opinion and will continue to fly in spite of me.
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 7:20 PM
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Ty Coleman
205 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:22 PM
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NICK, LET ME START BY SAYING I RESPECT YOUR OPINION BUT YOU MAKE A POST ABOUT THIS IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER EVERY OTHER WEEK.WHAT ELSE BESIDES A ARGUMENT DO YOU EXPECT TO ACHIEVE??????
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
2686 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:32 PM
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Ty,
My objective is what? I am trying to get people to understand they have a responsibility to protect the integrety of the the breed. I am hoping to stimulate interest. The ways and means that I use may not agree with you, but I do get a response. If I would take a mondain approach to stimulating other fanciers that is the response I would probably get......a mondain, mamby pamby response if I get any at all.
I am one of those oddball people who likes a little confrontation; some augement. I am really a pretty nice guy(LOL).
Nick
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rollerpigeon1963
243 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:40 PM
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Nick,
You dont have to ask when you make post like this. If your feelings about mongrels are as strong as you say they are do you think its in the back of someones mind if they didnt get to fly at a certain time, they will blame the director because they think he don't like them because they have mongrels?
Nick this is my opinion I'm not telling others to see my way of thinking I'm just expressing mine. But you are already causing shadows amoung your region when you say things like this.
Let me say this Nick and I will drop this. When you talk like this and one little mistake {molehill} happens it will me a mountain the very next day.
Brian
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Ty Coleman
208 posts
Apr 18, 2008
7:57 PM
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NICK, WE DISAGREE THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM,IM JUST ASKING THAT YOU FIND ANOTHER WORD BESIDES MONGREL TO REFER TO OTHER BREEDERS BIRDS.I JUST WOULD LIKE SOME RESPECT THATS NOT TO MUCH TO ASK
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
2690 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:24 PM
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Ty,
You have my respect. Breeders of pigeons of any kind any where in the world have my respect. You have my respect for other things as well. You stick up for your ideas and beliefs; I have seen you take shots from many, but you never ran away. I respect that.
Nick
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Santandercol
2321 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:50 PM
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Nick,Fer crissakes,I have 3 Australian Terriers which were bred in Aus of course to be a good farm dog,watch dog,varmint killer and best buddy.They are a breed developed from a mix of a few Limey breeds and the so called Tasmanian Terrier.People were breeding for a certain kind of dog that is small,ferocious if need be,poison defenses,herding instincs,all sorts of traits.Now hopefully there will always be such a breed of dog.When they developed the Birmingham Roller it was because they wanted kitting birds that performed in certain ways.Now adays folks have crossed up the BR with whatever to get the American Roller,Canadian Roller.\Afghani Roller,Show Roller(bwwwaa) whatever,ya can't stop people messing around with genetics,man.May as well give up on that one.Keep what's in your loft pure as what you have and I'm to dumb to do anything different 'cept keep the breeds separate so I'll keep mine pure too.The W/C Roller Fly is just that,a ROLLER Fly with rules and guidelines as to what is a good performer or not.C'mon Nick.There only pigeons.If other folk want to mess with interbreeding,just let it go.It's human nature to alter the way things are.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 8:52 PM
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Ballrollers
1133 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:54 PM
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Oriental Roller + Dutch Tumbler + Tippler + other unknown breeds of pigeons = Mongrel Birmingham Roller Breed, bred for specific performance and type
Birmingham Roller Mongrel Breed (bred for specific performance and type) + other Birmingham Roller Mongrel Breed with Specific Genetic Color Factors (also bred for specific performance and type) = More Birmingham Roller Mongrels of different colors and factors bred for same, specific performance and type
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 8:56 PM
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nicksiders
2693 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:07 PM
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Breed: a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans
Homogenous: corresponding in structure because of a common origin.
the very definition of a breed proves the Birmingham Roller is a distinct breed of Pigeon. It can't be defined by a descriptive action alone. If so, the Oriental Roller would be a Birmingham Roller too because it performs in the same descriptive manner. The key word in the definition of a breed is "homogenous" which means they correspond in structure because of a common origin. I do believe all Birmingham Rollers trace their common origin back to Birmingham England and that's part of what qualifies this group of Pigeons as Birmingham Rollers.
Thanks to Alan Bleven
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 9:14 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2359 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:12 PM
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Hey Nick, the NBRC owns you now! LMAO! Just kidding.
But now Nick's, Brian's and Cliff's comments have made me curious...is the official position of the National Birmingham Roller Club that the Birmingham Roller is a recognized breed, mongrel birds or merely a performance description?
Since each one of you have served or are currently serving in some official capacity for the national club, what is your sense of this?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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sippi
173 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:12 PM
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I wondered how long it would be before you whupped out the old Webster?
Sippi
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Santandercol
2324 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:13 PM
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I don't think they should be called Mongrels in someone elses loft they have bred birds to be what THEY want.It is their breed and is a jewel in their eyes.They shouldn't be called Birmingham Rollers either,any more than a Donek should be called Dewlap.Rollers maybe if they spin and kit and do everything a "Roller"is supposed to do but they stopped being Birmies the moment one roller was hatched from a BR somethingorother mating.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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nicksiders
2694 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:23 PM
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What is a Birmingham Roller Pigeon?
The Birmingham Roller Pigeon is a domesticated member of the bird family Columbidae. In particular, the Roller distinguishes itself by its ability to "roll", or summersault backwards in rapid, tight rotations. The rolling can be so fast on its axis that the pigeon resembles a ball of feathers spinning in mid-air.
This is quoted from the NBRC site
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Santandercol
2327 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:29 PM
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But Nick,there are rollers that do what the NBRC describes but they may be VERY distantly related to the TRUE BR that came from that part of the UK
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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nicksiders
2696 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:32 PM
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Okay Kel, and your point is?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2361 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:34 PM
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Hey Nick, I see. What I take from that, is that the NBRC's position is that the "Birmingham Roller" is a domesticated pigeon, this leads me to believe that their position is that the BR is a breed?
Am I reading that right?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ballrollers
1134 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:50 PM
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Tony,
I'd say that it depends on who you talk to. There is no "NBRC" to talk to for an opinion...only the men who comprise it. Different men feel differently about the issue, obviously. The predominant view, as I understand it, is that the NBRC supports the performance definition of the Birmingham Roller, as a breed, not one based on pedigree, genetics, or family, since these cannot be validated, and it includes a wide range of families and backgrounds. Most pedigrees and family backgrounds have been shown to be full of errors, mistakes, and fudge-factors. MOST members recognize the diverse genetic background of rollers and accept birds of varying feather types, characteristics, and colors as Birmingham Rollers...as long as they display in body type, the basic standard of a roller for type, and adhere to the basic performance standard. Only a very few minority are hung up on the name, like nick. Nobody in the mainstream of the hobby is crossing other breeds with rollers today. And to brand any of today's families as anything but Birmingham rollers, based on a certain feather characteristic or color is preposterous, and only done by a few men who like to cause trouble for the hobby and its members. Most men in the hobby recognize that to try to re-construct the history of the original breed and all the crosses that have occurred since the beginning is impossible, and most just don't care about it any more. Breed outcrossing is not commonly practiced by serious roller men today, nor is the practice favored by most breeders and flyers. So in reality it is a dead issue...kept alive by a few trolls on roller lists.....and by a few men who have an agenda...an alterior motive for constantly stirring up hard feelings between roller men.
So, yes...a breed, definitely, but a wide range of possiblities of the birds within it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 9:53 PM
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Santandercol
2332 posts
Apr 18, 2008
9:53 PM
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Sorry Nick,but how can you chastize someone who has a mixed breed loft of birds that roll and perform to the standards of the BR?,even if it has some weird colour or crest or muffs,if that is what they want to do let 'em fly at it.Sure I would hope they don't promote them as pure BRs and pass them onto newbies as such but one needs to do some research when obtaining birds.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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birdman
533 posts
Apr 18, 2008
10:11 PM
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"Brian,
I don't buy it. All breeds have had a little bit of dubious breeding in thier back ground. But, there comes a point in its history that it is called what it has become. From that point it is up to us as breeders to protect the integrety for which it is named. The intentional and continual mixing of other breeds into it should be considered taboo."
Nick ..................................
Nick, think about your statement for a minute and tell us at what point in history was it OK to quit calling them mongrels and start defending and protecting them as a breed?
Am I the only one who sees the hypocracy of your statement?
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 10:12 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2362 posts
Apr 18, 2008
10:15 PM
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Hey Cliff, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Your position you presented is compelling, especially the part where you state that "...MOST members recognize the diverse genetic background of rollers and accept birds of varying feather types, characteristics, and colors as Birmingham Rollers...as long as they display in body type, the basic standard of a roller for type, and adhere to the basic performance standard..."
If this is accurate, this opinion will hold sway. I can see why a few who might disagree with the majority would be vehement in their differing views, if just to be heard on the issue.
I would like to hear from Brian as well if he cares to respond.
Do we know how the majority in the United Kingdom sees this issue? I would really like to hear from our friends there and find out what they think.
Also, I would like to hear from anyone who could shed some light or add something constructive to this discussion.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ballrollers
1136 posts
Apr 18, 2008
10:30 PM
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Tony,
When I say, the "NBRC",I am speaking of its members and its officers in general. My opinion is based on my personal conversations with those men accross the nation, under kits, at conventions, and at local and regional flys and shows, and is intended as a general consensus.
Thanks,
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2363 posts
Apr 18, 2008
10:33 PM
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Hey Cliff, yes, that helps me to understand your point better. Thanks.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Joe K
2 posts
Apr 18, 2008
11:01 PM
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I saw someone mention Dutch Rollers, acually many, many moons ago I witnessed my first kit of rollers. They were flying high above Zodys parking lot in Long Beach Ca. They were extreemly deep! apx 60 foot or more! At the time I just owed racers {commies) that I got from robbing the nests at the local grocerie store at night.Anyway I watched the birds land and went to the owners house. The birds were all ressesive reds, he said they were Dutch rollers. Needless to say I been hooked on these fantastic creatures ever since that day some 40 years ago. Time sure flies!!!! Anyway I just thought Id throw this post in amonst all the hoopla! :/~
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2008 11:07 PM
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nicksiders
2697 posts
Apr 19, 2008
12:51 AM
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Kel,
I understand what you're saying now. I am not going to chastize anyone for what they are flying. When they fly they will be judged for performance only and not their color. I don't judge any breeders birds on the perch either.
"If the dog hunts; its a hunting dog". If the bird rolls; its a roller. It may not be a Birmingham Roller, but it is a roller.
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 11:00 AM
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nicksiders
2698 posts
Apr 19, 2008
1:06 AM
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Russ,
Origin of the Birmingham Roller was in England, in and around Birmingham. The exact date of origin is uncertian. Fulton in 1876 mentions it. Charles Leinhard of Cincinnati, OH, imported the breed into the united states in the late 1870's. So, on or before 1876 it was an established breed. It is now 2008; meaning it has been an established breed for a minimum of 132 years and I would venture to say it has been an establish breed even longer.
I would say that sometime before 1876 you should have stopped calling it a mongrel and begin protecting the integrity of the breed.
Hyprocracy?........me no understand
Nick
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 1:09 AM
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rollerpigeon1963
245 posts
Apr 19, 2008
2:31 AM
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Tony,
It was late when I posted last night after 11pm and now I'm about to walk out the door {5am} to go to work I will post later this evening what I believe. It has nothing to do with the NBRC on what I said my opinion.
Just what is being posted, and what some might think.
But I will reply this evening when I get home.
Thanks Brian Middaugh
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 2:32 AM
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Ty Coleman
210 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:23 AM
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NICK THE FAMILY I FLY HAS BEEN BRED FOR 40 SOMETHING YEARS, WOULD THIS NOT PASS THE MONGREL STATUS?LOL
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2364 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:29 AM
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Hello Ty, typing in ALL CAPS is considered shouting. Press the "Caps Lock" key one time and you will have calmed down your online demeanor quite a bit for us reading your posts.
Of course unless you are angry, in which case, chill! :-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ty Coleman
212 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:35 AM
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I was ignorant to that Tony thanks,im just to lazy to hit the shift key lol.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2365 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:55 AM
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hehehe...Thanks Ty!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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nicksiders
2702 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:18 AM
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Ty,
I am not even sure that my birds are not mongrels. I have only the integrety of the of those who bred the original birds to rely on. The age of the strain don't mean much. If you have things like opals and stencils and white bars popping out then there would be some doubt what you have.
You need to quit egging me on, Ty(LOL)
Nick
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Ty Coleman
213 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:22 AM
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you started it lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Electric-man
1462 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:28 AM
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Group hug, anyone?
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Ty Coleman
214 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:29 AM
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Nick the point im trying to make is if you flew barn pigeons i would state my opinion on your barn pigeons and let it go i dont need to tell you every other day that you fly barn pigeons. i like all pigeons so i wouldnt care what u have. whatever floats your boat.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
215 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:30 AM
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no thanks Val im good lmao
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
2703 posts
Apr 19, 2008
10:56 AM
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Okay Ty....................until the next time(LOL)
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Velo99
1661 posts
Apr 19, 2008
11:01 AM
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As purists all we can really do is to ensure that our little patch of pigeon paradise is all straight up and in the level. Might not mean much all the time but there will be a time when it can be a very large factor in an equation.
mtc
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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rollerpigeon1963
246 posts
Apr 19, 2008
4:58 PM
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Tony,
I will not speak for the NBRC because the NBRC is made up of a group of over 2000 members. So how can one man talk for the NBRC. I would disrespect some or most people if I say I speak for the NBRC.
What I was saying in my post is how can some people in a certain region feel comfortable flying when a R.D makes comments on a open forum. I for one would say shove it. I don't need to help you when you separate different people within the hobby because of what they chose to breed.
Tony when I go and judge a region I don't like to look at the birds before a fly. I keep a distance until the judging is over. I then go out to the kitboxes and look and handle the birds. Then I go into the loft because I don't want some people to think that they are not getting a fair shake when I'm there to judge. Because most on here know I don't have any birds of color that I keep for kit competition. So I don't want them to think I'm a purist and wont give the other guys a pat on the back when they do well.
Now lets look at something for a minute here if you don't mind. Say for example you have a website devoted to pigeons. You sell meds, loft supplies and etc. etc. You are there for everyone that has pigeons. Now do you think you might loose a few sales by calling someone's birds Mongrels? {Sub-quality} So you use other words that isn't as harsh because you are here to serve everyone that has pigeons. No need to shoot yourself in the foot correct. That way everyone that has birds says "Hey that Tony has some good things on his website for sale". How far do you think a person will recommend your site if you stated man those guys that have those crossed bred birds have Mongrels? Probably loose a few sales just because you use the wrong word in your description. So to play it say you get the point in a different manner that isn't so harsh sounding and make the sales and also gets your point across.
Same as what I was saying to Nick about how he comes across in some of his post.
The way it sounds that some on here think if they are not pure the shouldn't be allow to compete. They have to save the breed!!! Then there is some on here that believe that the roller of color shouldn't be called a Birmingham but should be allowed to compete!!!! Then you have the ones that have rollers that do spin with the best shouldn't be called Birminghams!!!
Tony just as I said before its my opinion and my feelings what I posted. As you can see I don't post alot been a member here since the begining and have only 240 some post. But I post what I really believe and have experience with. And here lately I have been supporting your site with a few purchases and trying to get into the chatroom as much as I can. Because to me the chatroom is a big draw for your site and glad you have it there. Because you can really express yourself on live chat if someone takes it the wrong way.
Best of luck and thanks
Brian Middaugh
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 5:01 PM
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PR_rollers
913 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:48 PM
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Brian I always like the way you express yourself you make a lot of sense, I think if anyone is going to hold a position be a RD or Pres what ever he has to think differently now as what other would think maybe you don't care but you have to because some people are sore loser and if they know you don't like color birds they will use that as an excuse to say thats why you gave them a low score.see now you have to earn everyone respect not saying you have to worry about what ppl say ,but you have to carry yourself like how you want to look in the eyes of everyone.because you have a title now .and you have to protect it.watch what you do like you said you don't look at anyone kitbox before the fly begins all you care about whats in the sky for you to judge.you have to watch how you walk now. you make your reputation..and if you don't step down.... and just be yourself and don't care what anybody thinks..just my 2 cent not that anybody cares I'm just a backyard flyer.
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Ralph....
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 7:09 PM
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Ballrollers
1139 posts
Apr 19, 2008
5:54 PM
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Let's not be naiive, here....Nick knows EXACTLY what he is doing.....
Cliff
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rollerpigeon1963
247 posts
Apr 19, 2008
6:39 PM
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Ralph
Exactly my point!!!
Brian
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