MILO
937 posts
Apr 28, 2008
7:55 PM
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Hey Cliff. Thought it chould get a fresh look. Here is what you posted on page 4...lol
Milo
Interesting post. Let me ask you this.
If there are no standards, except the performance standards, why do we continue to have these endless color discussions at all? It seems to me, the NBRC is promoting the Birmingham roller through Pensom's performance definition of its standard....and the National FLY. If the families of "colored" Birmingham Rollers can compete with families of "non-color-added" Birmingham Rollers, then the Performance definition is meeting the needs of most of the flyers.
If, on the other hand, we want a show breed or a show standard... then we need more defined, better-explained descriptions of the birds and the color and shape of their feathers. The NBRC does not cater to the show-bird standard. The NBRC promotes the performance Birmingham Roller.
I have no problem with more than one National Roller pigeon club. Maybe a little competition could move different clubs in different directions. In the minds of a few, it seems they would like to move away from performance standards and now need tighter restrictions for "breed" standards, or tighter rules. The NBRC is more successful in representing the fancy than any other roller club has ever been, and it continues to grow. I think those that are so unhappy with the NBRC should definitely give it a shot....set up their own organization and rules and have their own fly. Go for it guys.
Or maybe to help these situations, we should base competition flys based on color alone. Maybe that would make the inbreeding pedigree guys happy...ya think? We could have a fly only for blue bars with white flights, another for blue bars w/o w/f., one for red bars with w/f............ But then we could encounter dirty dogs trying to slip in those damn indigos on the red bars. So I guess, it would be best to ban all red-based birds altogether and just stick with blue-based birds, one fly for checkers , one fly for bars, one fly for spread blacks. But no yellows, of course....after all they are not really "true" Birmingham rollers either according to these wanna-be "experts".....I guess that goes for the silvers, too, then...... but then what to do about those dang almonds....they've been around since the beginning. Let's just ban them anyway to be on the safe side.....And even if the genetisists say that reduced has actually mutated from the BR....what the hell do they know? No mutations, anymore!!! But then how do we keep guys from sneaking in a blue check or a black off of a colored roller. Hmmmmmm. I don't know if we can make this work or not Milo.......but I really think that is the only fair way of judging performance Birmingham Rollers. LOL! Based on color! LOL!
Cliff
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MILO
938 posts
Apr 28, 2008
8:03 PM
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Here is my response.
Cute.
Look Cliff. I am just calling it like it is. I didn't say I like the situation anymore than you do, but it is what it is. I am going to keep it simple, then I will add my personal opinion.
Here is why everyone is always freaked out over color:
A. There is a breed called the Birmingham Roller. It's a breed all it's own. You can not see a Birmingham Roller by the naked eye. It is what it does in the air that makes it unique. It comes in an assortment of beautiful colors and has been bred this way for longer than you and I have been alive, and our fathers. It is a tradition that has been kept by (many) since the birds were imported to this soil.
To be called a Birmingham Roller it basically has to perform as we know it should spin...inconceivable rapidity...blah, blah, blah... Both pure Birminghams and crosses are capable of the performance standard. In my young life, when I first started with these birds, it was VERY clear that it was an established breed. But in recent years, the original colors of these birds have become boring to some. As a result, different breeds have been crossed in for unique colors not already existing in the ESTABLISHED BREED.
A Birmingham Roller loses it's title of "Birmingham Roller" when another breed is crossed into it. The offspring may not appear as crosses, and some yes. Here is our dilemma...The F1 may appear as a Birmingham Roller, with a strange color we have not seen before in this breed (although many of these crosses are obvious, and the reasons for crossing are a mystery to those that just breed for performance) but it does not qualify for this point forward as one. It may not carry the name. It's like a Golden Retreiver being mounted by a Chihuahua. Never mind that the F1 pups are bad-ass retrievers, or how the Chihuahua got on the stepping stool, it just isn't a Retriever, nor is it a Chihuahua.
Now, I am not the authority on how many generations you have to weed through to reclaim the title. Is it 5 generations? 10? 22? I really don't know, and don't care. It's in the gene pool. Many will argue, well, it was derived from many breeds to begin with. Yes, but time is on the side of the Birmingham Roller. It has been bred for many, many years without a new cross. So doing it now is just nuts.
So here is the controversy: It's not a conspiracy, and not a witch hunt. If you have a color that is not unique to the breed since it's importation, and yes, the rich history of it's cultivation, then your birds are not Birmingham Rollers. Now that is the opinion of those that can see it with the naked eye, and those that love the established breed and it's history. No one can prove they aren't pure unless they are "painted" in exotics.
I am tired Cliff. You know it, and I know it, the problems are always going to be there. You asked me why the color debates? This is what I see. Monson said it best...he doesn't like them, and wouldn't tell another man what to do with his birds.
You the most vocal an knowledgable Rollerman I have interacted with when it comes to topics of color. Hands down. Maybe BMC can one up you, but that is a non-issue. You are a powerful advocate of rare color. You like them, and have them. You are also the National Fly Director for the most reputable oraganization for the preservation and promotion of the Birmingham Roller. Do you think that rubs some the wrong way? I think so. Hey, I don't care either way...LOL But you asked.
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2394 posts
Apr 28, 2008
8:13 PM
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Hey Cliff, interesting post...do you think that the National Performing Roller Association has the membership numbers, influential members and resources to offer up a legitimate challenge for the hearts and minds of the NBRC membership or the roller fancier in general?
It's ironic that an organization that promotes competition has none to speak of.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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MILO
939 posts
Apr 28, 2008
8:36 PM
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I am also amazed that everyone pretty much glazed over this comment and didn't even give it much thought as to the ramifications of the position of the NBRC governing body. It was a shock, and a huge eye opener to say the least. I would also like to thank Alan for doing the legwork. I don't want to get too far off topic, but really, it needs to be explored.
"BTW.. I wrote every board member of the NBRC and everyone of them wrote me back and told me they considered rare colored Rollers to be Birmingham Rollers. These extremist, bitter and divisive ideas are not spawned by the NBRC."
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Alan
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Scott
443 posts
Apr 28, 2008
8:44 PM
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Article II --- Objectives
Section 1
The objectives of the NBRC will be as follows
The cultivation of the true Birmingham Roller pigeon as a performing BREED<. <..yep says breed, Duh
Aurgue that one
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 8:51 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2396 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:29 PM
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Hey Luis, hmmmmm...well now the debate seems to have shifted a bit from colors-mongrels being argued to what the NBRC's own published materials say.
I find it somewhat refreshing to hear this different perspective.
It's a new dog, and this ones alive! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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fhtfire
1279 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:36 PM
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Tony...don't you dare lock this topic up. That is why our breed is going to go down the tubes......nobody will stand up and let the truth be told....to worried about hurting feelings....Tony..you work hard..just like most of us to keep the Birmingham PURE....not telling the truth only slaps guys like you and I and Scott and all the other true breeders. This topic is an argument about facts. If you are breeding for a pretty color you are totally underminding the very breed that we are trying to perfect and keep pure. The "Standard" is set to keep the breed pure.....and push people to stock only the best birds to keep the birmingham Pure.
I am ready to talk about this...i will challenge any color breeder on this site to PROVE to me that a cross can carry the name of a set pure bred animal. NO GOVERNING BODY that oversees a breed like the AKC or whatever will say that a cross can carry the name of either pure parent....no matter what....especially if it is showing any trait from another breed...like a rare color...wether it rolls, retrieves, pulls a sled or what have you....if it is showing a trait of another breed....and has been crossed...it will never be recognized by any sanctioning organization as a Pure bred or will be allowed to carry the name of that Pure breed.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1280 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:39 PM
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Tony..call me 530-867-2288 we have to finish our last conversation...
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luis
857 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:45 PM
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Can someone tell me where i can find the literature that states when the Birmingham roller was set as a breed and what the complete definiton for said standard was,including the colors wich were permited and the ones that were not!If there is such a standard for this breed,i sure as hell would like to read up on it.
I could care less about goats,sheep or cows or shows for that matter.This has always been said to be a performing breed and not for show.So if someone could direct me to where such a definition exists i would greatly appreciate it.If convincing enough i will discard every colored bird in my loft that does not fit said definition!
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 9:58 PM
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MILO
940 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:47 PM
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Luis,
THERE IS A LOT to be added to this topic. If it aint your cup of tea, then you can click on Georges latest post. There are some beauties there for you to look at. You want to allow that post and diminish the importance of my thread, well, I am not going to allow it. Thank you Tony for recognizing the real subject matter here, and allowing it.
c
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fhtfire
1281 posts
Apr 28, 2008
9:58 PM
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Luis,
That is a debate in every breed of animal..when the breed was set...I mean...we know that it was set over 100years ago..for sure...most breeds that have a history are educated guesses...like the La Mancha goat or the Nubian...some breeds go back farther then others..some old writing tell the colors of the Birmingham rollers and old photos show the colors....or markings....a lace...a toy stencil....etc.....were not in the mix...Birminghams were known for there colors...meaning...torts, mottles, baldies, mealy bars, lavenders...etc etc.....they are a colorful breed....that ROLLED!!...now...I am not the type to witch hunt...and people are free to do whatever they want in there own back yard.....Hell I have even crossed when i had goats...because to make money for my breeding project...I sold milk.....La Mancha goats do not produce near the milk that a Sannen(spelling)...so I crossed the two breeds to get some does to produce more milk to support my pure bred project...even though my crosses may have come out looking like a la mancha...I never said they were....only my purebreds were called la mancha...so my point is...i will never fault anybody for having fun with there birds and making new colors....because I love pigeons and love to see colors myself...but I would never call a bird of rare color a birmingham roller...because it is no longer pure...I do not fault the person for having fun...I fault the person who is trying to hurt a pure breed by claiming such nonsense calling there birds the name of a pure breed.
I can't believe that the governing body would say such a thing or write letters claiming a cross breed is a Birmingham...i sit on the Executive Committee of the NBRC by being a regional director...and I tell you what..it looks like we all need to sit down and have a chat with the rest of the committee about this issue...and organization that is overseeing a pure breed better have some teeth...and seperate standard from pure breed...because the standard does not set the breed...the breed sets the breed...the standard is just a benchmark of what the breed stand for or the "perfect" pure specimen to breed from to continue to produce offspring that meet the standard or give you better odds to meet the standard. without a standard then you could call anything a pure bred.... the two are seprate..but also work hand in hand .
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
941 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:01 PM
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Very well stated my friend.
c
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luis
858 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:04 PM
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Milo,i haven't read anything on this post that has not been brought up in the other many,many many posts about the same subject.In regards to those beauties on Georges post....well what can i say.Same shit....different toilet!
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fhtfire
1283 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:05 PM
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milo...good to have you back..hey..you are close to a free hat..LOL!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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flo
88 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:06 PM
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I am not a memeber of NBRC yet but this post has been very interesting because it really gives me an idea of the NBRC's true idea of a "True Birmingham Roller". One question: If the NBRC believes in the theory of "Cultivating True Birmingham Roller" why do they also promote "rare color performing roller (or mongrel or whatever you want to call it"?. Promote? Yes- there is a picture in the "member photo" where members posts their rollers and there is a "silver white bare bald head performing roller". I believe a silver white bar is not a "true birmingham color" is it? If not why do they allow that photo to be posted. REason is, for myself and any newbie getting to understand and value the "true" birmingham roller specimen, when we see that picture of a white bar roller, we would assume it was an original color too....So is the NBRC really doing a newbie any good posting pictures of rollers that I am sure many of you know for a fact is not in teh "true" birmingham roller's genetics? If the NBRC believes in "cultivating a True Birmingham Roller" why do they set an example of a sliver white bar roller as a "True" birmingham roller?
flo
www.blacked-out-loft.webs.com
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fhtfire
1284 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:10 PM
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Luis,
I have to disagree....some of the other posts were people getting pissed off and attacking each other on a personal level...or not stating facts...these posts have more meat then the others....if these type of posts get shut down and not brought up...then the very breed we are protecting will be hurt....and there are new fliers on this site every day...and there are ALOT of posts to try and find this info...
and second...this is the first that I have heard of the NBRC governing body or officers....producing letters stating that a colored bird or cross is a Birmingham roller....as a breeder and comp flier I find it troubling that this has happened. These officials are elected to represent the many....and before letters are thrown out...without a thought....then there is a problem....I have yet to see letters...so it may be all smoke and mirrors....The governing body should consult with other governing bodies like the AKC etc to see what they accept as a purebred animal.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
942 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:12 PM
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Then go away. Let someone else answer. You haven't posted anything of value to this thread at all. You even asked a question in this thread where Scott took the time to find for you before you even asked it. Maybe you want to scroll up. I'm not being a jerk, just want to stay on track. There is more here than meets the eye. I certainly don't want it swept under the rug just because you feel it isn't important. In fact, I am anxiously waiting for Cliff's response. Or are you purposely trying to steer the thread off track? You may contribute in a positive manner, or just sit back and watch us keep beating the horse. Either way, I would like to see some movement.
c
ps. Let a new kid have my hat when I get there.
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Electric-man
1503 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:13 PM
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I agree, I have turned my way of thinking 180 degrees from when I came in here a few years ago! Thought you guys were gonna let Nick get beat down there at first, but the old crew is gaining momentum now! Need to get KGB and Nick back in here and then see the feathers fly! LOL
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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fhtfire
1285 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:13 PM
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Flo,
You are sooooo right! Man...I am going to have to look at this photo.....you brought up the very point that all the pure breeders feel....new guys will think that is ok...it is not.....I mean...it is ok..if you like pretty colors..but if you want pure..that is not ok...anyway..good post....you just made the thread have a little bite instead of bark..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
943 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:14 PM
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Good post Flo.
c
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luis
860 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:15 PM
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Paul,here is where i feel there is a problem!If we don't have a set standard in regards to what is permited and what isn't,then it becomes rather difficult to prove the color debate.There are many colored rollers that look and play the part very well!
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fhtfire
1286 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:17 PM
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Lol
You are funny Val...I am part of the old crew and I running under the Scott C. banner...LOL....holy crap..you get KGB and Nick back in here and it is show time....the OK corral..>LOL...all joking aside...this is a topic or a horse that needs to be beat until all the color is out of that horse.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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luis
861 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:21 PM
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Milo,i ain't going away!In regards to your statement about the other thread...you should go back and re-read it because you're way off base!
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MILO
944 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:22 PM
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Then state your point Luis, don't try to bury the thread.
c
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Electric-man
1504 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:25 PM
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You guys have perverted me, I mean converted is what I'm trying to say!LOL By next month, there won't be any color left in my loft!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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MILO
945 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:27 PM
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LOL Val.
I'm going for a run. I bet there will be 20 more hits by the time I get back...Can someone get Cliff out of bed? None of the HARD questions have been addressed by, mmmm, what do they call them? The opposition? LOL
c
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fhtfire
1288 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:30 PM
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Luis,
The standard is nothing but the benchmark for that of the breed birmingham roller. Now the Breed Birmingham roller is that of pure blood that meets the standard. It is hard to put into words what it means...but the standard is Second to the Name. Meaning...if the bird is not pure and meets the standard it is not a birmingham roller..it just meets the standard. The standard DOES NOT make the name...the breed makes the name. Standards are set mainly for breeding purposes or what the "perfect specimin" of the Pure Breed should be. If you do not have a standard..then guys will pull dish rag rollers and breed from them...if you set a standard...you set a goal....to keep all your birds that enter you stock loft the "perfect specimin" and 9times out of 10...the odds go up to produce more "perfect specimins" if you breed from a "perfect specimin".
Don't get the two mixed up ..standard and breed. They are totally different...the standard does not set the breed...Pure blood is the only thing that is allowed to carry the Name..and the standard is what you strive for while keeping the bird pure.
Just remember this....you talked about paint jobs....just because a bird rolls does not mean it is a birmingham roller...the only thing that allows the bird to carry the name is two pure bred parents....get my point....the standard is just a benchmark or what makes that breed special or what you have to have to keep the breed moving forward.
just remember a cross has no name....no matter what....it may meet a standard..but has no name and if you do not have a name..you can not be recognized as being pure.....Yes..you may have an F1 that has a Archangel mom and a Birmingham roller dad...and it may pop out and look like a birmingham and roll like a birmingham...but that archangel stripped the rights from that bird to be called a birmingham...even though it meets the standard in every way....but it does not get the name...only PURE BLOOD gets the name.
But standard and Name work hand in hand ONLY when the breed is pure...then you can try and meet the standard...make sense..lol
rock and ROll
Paul
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George R.
550 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:32 PM
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I still think its obvious what a REAL Birmingham Roller is.
If a person wants to keep Birds that were crossed to make this color HuGe Muffs with crest thats OK.
The problem is when they tell people that they have birmingham rollers .
Usually the people who have Odditys for birds paid some good cash for them.(thats why the guys that make them sell them )
And when someone starts saying bad things about them there stock falls,
They should just admit it , (example) I have a Rottxshepard dog , he is a MUTT but guess what what he is my MUTT . There you see how easy that was.If I can do it anyone can.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 10:36 PM
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fhtfire
1289 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:40 PM
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Luis,
When you stated that some colored birds play the part very well.....That is the problem....the birds are "playing" the part...they are talking the talk..but they can't walk the walk........that is why other governing bodies do not allow cross breeds...because they play the part so well....it is a threat to the pure breed...that is why these governing agencies have HUGE data bases on offspring and back grounds....the have power pigeon X one million..LOL...the problem with us roller guys is that we have more of the good old boy attitude have no true record keeping.....it is all kind of like up to the breeder to be honest.....but one can be fooled by a good bird that is a cross....I myself would NEVER take a bird from any loft that I know has crosses in it...even if it is the best roller that I had ever seen....now...the only thing the NBRC can do...is not let birds fly in comp that have a paint job...or have a pedigree that shows a cross...they would have to pull those birds out regardless if they meet the standard or not..because they are not pure...and the comp is for birmingham rollers not "no name birds". Organizations the promote pure bred animals...have to be able to say no...or they are not doing there job....anyway....because of what you said...that is the very reason we need these posts..so the new guys can be educated and stay away from the crosses and strive to keep the blood pure like our forefathers wanted.
]
rock and ROLL
paul
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nicksiders
2752 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:43 PM
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I would love to envolve myself in this thread, but because of my my newly aquired position I cannot tell you that I like what Milo is saying I agree with it in most part. So, I am going to keep my mouth shut on this topic.
Nick Siders
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fhtfire
1290 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:47 PM
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George,
That is the very problem...the ones that have the colored birds can't admit that they have a mutt...they stake claim to a name that they do not deserve....I see it like you...it is clear as the morning dew.......some can't see the light...I myself do not understand it. If you have any type of integrity...you would admit what you have.....and let the person buying the birds make the choice...you know...it is all about money.....the pretty birds sell to new guys...and if they show a little roll then that is a bonus right....I mean..the best bird in my A-team is a little blue bar and I would put that bird up against any bird in the air.......but in a picture on on the perch...it is not as pretty as a mottle that I have or a tort that I have that is two steps below the blue bar...and I bet 9 out of 10 times if I was to put these three birds in a pin and tell a new flier that the Blue bar is the best and the other two are really good but not as good as the blue bar...they will pick the Tor or the Mottle...why..because it is human nature to pick pretty things....Me.....I am taking the freaking blue bar and breeding it to everything I have..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul.
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fhtfire
1291 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:48 PM
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Nick you are so full of shit...LOL....How is the super chicken!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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luis
862 posts
Apr 28, 2008
10:49 PM
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I completely understand your point Paul,but that still doesn't answer my question in regards to what is permited and what is not.This is truly were the debate on color can be buried once and for all!
I feel it is in the best interest of the NBRC and its members to create such a standard,if there is not one. One that can be followed by all those in pursuit of a common ideal.Until this takes place there will like Tony said"always be two camps".
Paul,can you be 100% sure that your rollers that show no rare colors are pure.How do we arrive at common ground on the many variables at stake in the game of genetics?
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 10:59 PM
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fhtfire
1292 posts
Apr 28, 2008
11:06 PM
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Luis,
Two camps is just fine...there is the NBRC that promotes the Breed...and to be called a Breed it has to be pure....the other is the Performing roller association....the promote birds that roll...and two camps is just fine with me.
The NBRC has the standard....Scott posted up top...it says to Promote the Birmingham roller as a BREED..that one word sums it up...to be a Breed it has to be pure. The NBRC has to follow there own rules and not post photos of birds that are not a BREED.....we all know what the Breed is...pure...no lace...no toy stencil...not tails that look like a fantail cross.......those birds should not be allowed to fly in an NBRC comp or be allowed to be on the web page...so it is already there...it is a matter of the Organization enforcing the Breed standard and the membership following it.....Ethics sums it up period.
So your question has been answered...the word BREED sums it up
Breed- biology distinct animal or plant: a strain of an animal or plant with identifiable characteristics that distinguish it from other members of its species, especially one whose characteristics are preserved by controlled mating or propagation.to select animals or plants as part of a process of improving or preserving their special characteristics
The last sentence is the keeper...charactersistic are preserved by CONTROLLED MATING OR PROPAGATION...what that means is keeping it pure...or improving or preserving there special characteristics.....that is by keeping it pure...if you cross you lose the roll and that is the special characteristic of the Birmingham roller...not the color...you cross and you lose the very thing that makes it a Birmingham...you are not improving or preserving the roll...you are ruining it..So Breed..is the word that we should follow and that is right out of the NBRC standard
rock and ROLL
paul
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fhtfire
1293 posts
Apr 28, 2008
11:16 PM
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Luis,
I can tell you this...I know where my birds came from...Tony is one...and he has the peds to back it up that go back up to 5 generations and some more then that...the birds that he has...came from breeders that too are purists....the second was from Mort Emami...his birds go back to breeders that were purist too.....I have bred over shit 600 birds maybe more...and not one has popped out...lace, toy stencil, top notched, nothing wierd or uncommon......so with those numbers...if there is a freak gene in there it is bound to pop up...and I will tell you this as god is my witness....if one of my breeders through a toy stencil or some other weird rare color...I would cull that bird and every bird related to it....that simple....I can say that because I know it is not going to happen.....and that is how serious I am about keeping the birds pure.....and I have bred enough animals in my time to know that if there is a freak gene...it will pop up sooner or later...and in pigeons you will see it way faster...because we are constantly switching pairs around and pumping the shit out of our breeders...so just that increases the odds of getting ther recessive gene to pop out...we also keep our lines tight...that too will force the recessive to pop out too.
Of course nobody knows for sure....if you have one...but the ethical person or the person with integrity would take care of the problem as soon as it showed its ugly head.
rock and ROLL
paul
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luis
864 posts
Apr 28, 2008
11:22 PM
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I'm sorry Paul but the word BREED does not answer my question in regards to what colors are permited within its definition.Again it is sometimes very difficult to judge a book merely by its cover!
Until someone posts something to the contrary,i will believe the standard of the breed to be simply based on type and performance and not color!If they show the goods in the air and on the perch and are able to produce the same or better...they're good enough for me!I don't care if their purple!Until i'm told they are not permited!
Perhaps this thread can touch on the subject of percetages of above average birds produced by birds carrying rare colored factors versus birds that don't ,and the timelines to be considered when breeding colored birds.
I thank you for your posts and comments Paul and respect your position on the subject.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 11:40 PM
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fhtfire
1294 posts
Apr 28, 2008
11:55 PM
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luis,
I see your point....I guess. The NBRC needs to put a standard on color...because all of us know that a toy stencil or a lace is not a normal color....I think that there is enough knowledge in the NBRC to come up with some colors that would not be acceptable as a Birmingham roller from a pure breed stand point...not performance but pure breed. There are members that are considered experts on the subject of genetics and color and could make a list I am sure that would solve the problem...but I do see your point..unless the colors are on paper with a photo of the color and then approved by the NBRC membership...hell vote on it....then we will have some teeth...without that it is he said she said....I see your point...and you are right.....there is not color standard.
Well..I am going on record saying that there should be. anyway...luis...I see your point.
It still is not right...LOL....I know that a lab does not have spots...and the AKC has the standard for a lab and the color is included....chocolate, Gold, Black....etc....if a lab has spots it is not a lab...it may look like one...hell if the lab was red....like a ridgeback...that two would not make it a lab...because the color would disqualify it...got it..we need to put a color standard...and I know if there was a vote...the majority would rule.....but it has to be done on behalf of the breed itself.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
946 posts
Apr 29, 2008
12:23 AM
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Yes, Luis has a valid point...
Unfortunatley...a color standard would alienate quite a few that have been duped into impure families. As I stated to Cliff before, what do we tell the guy now? Cull them all? LOL
But this I can say, as Paul mentioned in the posts here, the NBRC should be just as ruthless as the AKC judges, and if at an NBRC fly or function, a rare color bird is present, then it must be removed. But what happens? These rare colors are welcomed with open arms. The very sight of them makes me mad. It goes against what this breed is all about. Can you slip common color siblings to these rares into the kitbox unoticed? Ya. Of course, and that is how the rare color birds should be viewed, as taboo, and a diservice to the breed. They should feel shame having intentional crosses in their line of birds, instead we get this:
"BTW.. I wrote every board member of the NBRC and everyone of them wrote me back and told me they considered rare colored Rollers to be Birmingham Rollers."
Absolutely crazy. Oh no, we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. And again, we come full circle.
c
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Ty Coleman
239 posts
Apr 29, 2008
4:39 AM
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Paul, I'm not going to argue all of you no where i stand,but i wanted to correct some of the wrong "facts" you posted.The color does not have to be reintroduced every two generations, its been in my birds for over 20 generations nothing but Birminghams being bred together since the 80's no f1's "fact".Reduced was a gene mutation in a stock of rollers-not a rare color--Wedel Levi--I just added that because ive been called on it before.Best of luck to everyone with there birds.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ballrollers
1162 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:39 AM
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Gee, I almost missed out on all the fun!....my cable and internet service are out at the house, so I will try to respond when I can from my office computer......
First off.....Tony, you asked.... "do you think that the National Performing Roller Association has the membership numbers, influential members and resources to offer up a legitimate challenge for the hearts and minds of the NBRC membership or the roller fancier in general?
It's ironic that an organization that promotes competition has none to speak of."
I have not been a member of the NPRA for quite awhile now, so I cannot speak to what they are up to these days. I do recall that they are opposed to competitions in general, though they have kicked around the idea of some kind of individual performance compeition. But in short, I would say that the answer to your question is ....no.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1163 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:49 AM
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Secondly, let me go on record as having serious doubts about the accuracy of this statement,
"BTW.. I wrote every board member of the NBRC and everyone of them wrote me back and told me they considered rare colored Rollers to be Birmingham Rollers...."
What "board"? The EC? I know of several members that were not contacted....Alan, send me a copy of these letters of declaration; if you do, indeed, have them....I need to verify exactly what was said...
Cliff
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Double R
276 posts
Apr 29, 2008
6:54 AM
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Paul, Milo,
I agree if the NBRC don't do something to help preserver the Pure Birmingham Roller as a Breed, then it won't be long before we find them on the rare breed list. Just my opinion!
Robby
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Phantom1
205 posts
Apr 29, 2008
7:04 AM
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The NPRA is not a competition driven organization.
I agree with Milo in this instance. I believe the NBRC should be for only those that have Birmingham Rollers. Those that are not approved to join and compete, should not be allowed to. Instead of just sending in dues, there should be an application process.
I'm confident that once the colored and birds of mongrel descent are weeded out, the remaining membership will be just as successful in organizing the FF. It may take a few years to get it back up and running though.
But the bright side would be: The NBRC can finally be just that - the ONLY Birmingham Roller Club and support ONLY the Birmingham Roller. Anyone else can finally be put by the way side.
Eric
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Ballrollers
1164 posts
Apr 29, 2008
7:49 AM
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Geesh....we whip a few purist butts in competitions and look at the thanks ya get!! LOL! Just kidding guys. I recognize that preserving the breed is a serious and emotional issue for you. So let's say that we were to set the NBRC up as the "gate-keeper" for the purity of the breed. Like I said in my tongue-in-cheek-post above. How are we going to identify these "pure" birds? It's all we can do to get a count done correctly before a fly, as well as trying to verify that a flyer doesn't use the same birds in two flys. I guess we just make it a "judge's discretion" issue again. THAT should make for an interesting competition. Since it is the breed outcrossing that is your problem, and we have already established that many factors are carried and/or difficult to identify by looking at the bird on the perch, how would the NBRC enforce the "purity" issue. I guarantee that someone can put up a kit of black and whites, grizzles, rr, blue checks and bars....that carry color factors.....and all out of parent birds that show color. We can't even get consistant application of the fly rules. Do you think any particular judge can identify these birds?
And then on the other side of the coin, what if a guy produces a "pure" pedigree with obvious flaws in it...genetic impossibilites. Do you have a problem with that? How would the NBRC verify the authenticity of the pedigree? They are cheap and easy to fabricate, alter, and falsify. By what other means can a true BR be identified? What color? What feather type? What type? What is the standard What criteria would be used to declare a roller as a true BR? Family? Take the guy's word? (That otta be a good one!)I've been asking these questions for several years now and I have yet to get an answer. I will also guarantee that there are families of BR out there that would fail the test far before mine would.
Just getting started.....
Cliff
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MILO
948 posts
Apr 29, 2008
8:13 AM
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Cliff.
Glad to see you are up and out of your pajamas...LOL
I really don't think it is about what has been done up to now that concerns the purist guys, as I think that is clearly in the open. Now, it's really about how we move the breed forward.
c
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SAT Roller
105 posts
Apr 29, 2008
8:39 AM
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Wow............ Quite a post..
Can a recessive red be a Birmingham Roller?
Is a grizzle a Birmingham Roller?
How about a tort?
Do you have a list that says only these colors are PURE BREED???????
Pretty simple questions since some colors can not be pure.
Also, it has always been my understanding that a lot of the original imports were booted/muffed, I heard that the show folks only liked cleaned legged birds????
Richard
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Ballrollers
1165 posts
Apr 29, 2008
8:49 AM
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That's what I am talkling about, Milo. How do we move forward from here? Where do we go with this? Exclude guys from the NBRC who breed a family of rollers that was outcrossed 40-50 years ago? Well, any one of you can have my job, for sure, just let me know who wants to step up......Might have to get a new president, too...now that I think about it there are several positions that will be vacated....yep, a few judges too, and a whole bunch of flyers ....geesh even some Master Flyers and Hall of Fame members. The nerve of those guys! Maybe we need to revoke all the World Cup Titles and National Championships that have been earned with these birds as well. I guess a lot of friendships will fall by the wayside as the members will have to pick sides. I'll sorta miss you guys....But what the hell, friendships are not what is important in this game....it's the purity of Friggin' pigeons that is the most important! Right on!
This policy of exclusion has been attempted in the past, guys...by the PRC. It failed, miserably as a concept for a roller organization...cheating was rampant....few lofts qualified....accusations....distrust.....funds dried up. Is that what you guys want for the NBRC and the World Cup (might as well throw them in, since the previous GC, Szabatura, raised the issue)? Is that what you want for the hobby?
Oh yeah, one more thing...all you dozen or so guys have to do is convince the other 1500 members that this cockamamie idea makes sense, and is the best thing for all concerned.......
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 9:50 AM
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SAT Roller
106 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:11 AM
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Cliff,
Interesting comment you made concerning the PRC as when I joined the PRS (1973 ?) I got rid of a ton of excellent rollers as I did not have pedigrees on them.
Still today, they were some of the best rollers I have ever owned performance wise.
I sure hate to see the NBRC fall due to something similar.
I'm am however curious to know what colors make a Birmingham Roller PURE....
Richard
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 9:12 AM
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MILO
951 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:13 AM
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I think that is a great question...but I have to go to work...lol
Anyone else have any thoughts?
c
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SAT Roller
107 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:15 AM
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MILO,
I thought we were all at work..... LMAO
Richard
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