First go get some show breeds then start crossing , then years later lie about the crosses and talk about mutating. Also fly them with real Birminghams to hold them up but give the credit to the mut er I mean mutations and write about how good they are,at this point start the dishonesty, denying and half truths, this will help put you on your way as full fledged color breeder. Oh and I forgot to add, breed 4 times more than everyone else to compensate for those that maim themselves ,not kit , or land early and then you should be on the right road , and don't forget the deny it all part. and don't forget that when you are describing a bird don't forget to Add something about performance as an after thought in case someone that isn't a color breeder reads it, but if it is just color breeder to color breeder it doesn't matter because it is all about the color anyway. just more sound advise here ! Also when you are confronted about the mut er I mean mutations not being Birmingham Rollers ,attack the breed itself by denying it's existence, point out that other breeds were used in the beginning of it's development, sure all breeds derived the same way but skip right over that little detail. Also start talking about how those that don't have polluted lofts must just cull that funny stuff because surly everyone has allowed in a mut er I mean mutant from Turner and gang. Above do all in your power to confuse the new guys and people that don't know any better using the deny deny deny deny strategy, couple that with half truths and some little white lies and you will be well on your way to being a color breeder. Fred
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 7:33 AM
scott my man do you ever stop ????????? some wars cant be won not matter how hard you try no matter how many troops you send out somethings you just got to let be . the only thing you can control is what goes on in your own back yard you are a very good source of knowledge when it comes to rollers and i thank you for all the info you gave me in the past but i think and this is my opinion i think that your personal feelings about certain subjects (color) gets the best of you there are alot of newbies that might not no any better and you tare them a new one! your a smart guy im sure you can come up with a better way to get your point across instead of be so aggrresive all the time oops SORRY SCOTT DIDNT SEE BY FRED TIL THE LAST MIN BUT im going to leave this post up cause i know your ready to blow like a bomb any minute LOL!!!!!!!!! ---------- jerry t
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 9:05 AM
Sid, if I wanted my two year old asking questions about such graphiocs as you posted I would stay on porno sites. This is a roller site and no plce for that mess !!!!! ---------- Ty Vapor Trail Lofts
Sid, I think the bigger skull on the monkey will help the bird propell itself harder and thus producing a faster spinning bird...lol... ---------- Sal Ortiz
I bet that monkey can't even fly, better yet roll. But I'd like to get a pair.LOL LOL
PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2841 posts
Apr 12, 2009
2:14 PM
Hey where's Rudy sup....I see a Birmingham not banded... ---------- Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
There are few people who are crossing different pigeons with BR for colors today but those are far and in between. What we have today are birds that have been developed 40 to 50 years ago or longer. It was in the late 70s and early 80s when James Turner developed his family, which was 30 years ago. I would accept Scott’s argument for the people who are crossing their BR today to other breeds but not with the ones that have been developed before I was born.
The term that is used so often is that they don’t hold up is not true or valid. Maybe the not so knowledgeable will believe that but the kits with mixed colors that I stood under held up and were excellent. There are more people who own stock of colored birds than I thought there were. They all were happy with their birds. Not everyone likes to have a loft full of one color like blacks, Reds or Blue Checks for example. Others like to see the lace, opal, or almonds just to say the least.
As long as you are enjoying your birds, then who gives a hoot what others say or complain. The bottom line is…tough.
It's an ego thing. Ignore it, and continue on with your birds as you see fit. Some people forget that these are just birds. Respect is something that is earned, not demanded. And opinions are....well you have probably heard that one too...
In the end, the fact that you get enjoyment out of your birds, and they perform how you like, is your goal. Dont stray from it, and it will be enjoyable for you. Get caught up in the drama, and you will be disappointed and probably give it up. Bottom line is just remember why it is that you do this...and look, listen and feel, to see what works for you.
Bottom line is that no one here will pay to feed your birds, so what does their skewed opinion matter??? Do your thing and learn as you go man.
I actualy owe alot of credit to Scott for helping me become a color breeder as he put's it. After all of the bull he post all of the time it helped me decide to go 100% Turner line just to prove a point to him. I had several birds that were 1\2 or 3\4 Turner that I had planed to build a family around , but I gave them all away to stay 100% in the family. In the next few years I may even decide to fly in the 20 bird [ big boy] fly also but for now i'll stick to the 11 bird sissy fly, lol ---------- Ty Vapor Trail Lofts
hay fred like i said on earls list a while back everyone is a color breeder because you got your red checks and your blue checks ans tortise and the list goes on and what else can i say on this?????????????donny james
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3241 posts
Apr 13, 2009
7:29 PM
Sid, I caught wind of that inappropriate graphic. Let's not mock Ty and his family for asking you to refrain from such postings. You are a christian right? Is that something the Lord would approve of? ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
What did Sid post that the lord will not approve of?? Is it the pic with the monkey....dont think nothing wrong with that....that usually can be find in national geographic magazine that kids read here n there. ---------- kham thao
I think professional color breeders (show breeders) don't claim their birds perform better (or perform at all) as the real performance bird. Obviously performance breeders should not give a damn about color as long their birds perform well. So I believe those who play color breeding and claiming it to be performance breeding are neither color breeder nor performance breeder. I think they are a liar instead.
I don't have a problem with show breeders.
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2009 11:11 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1855 posts
Apr 15, 2009
5:14 AM
Rod, I'm not sure how you are defining "color breeder" or "performance breeder". Perhaps you would like to share that with us. I am also not sure how I should take your post.....Are you calling those of us who fly competitions with families of rollers that have color modifying genes, liars? If so, I will have to call you out on that, dude. Come to my house any time you like. If you don't see top quality performance as in any other kit of Birmingham Rollers, I'll pay your airfare. If you do, you pay me the cost of your airfare. Care to wager? Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 6:50 AM
Sounds like some one have some manning up to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jerry t
Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
510 posts
Apr 15, 2009
10:25 AM
---------- Mike Trevis The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Cliff,
It would be nice if folks would share where these newer colrs are coming from, and how they locked the color only in..As far as indigo, andulusion and yellow go, these have been here as long as I can remember. I have seen many excellent rollers in indigo and andulusion. It does not make a difference who likes or dislikes these colors they are here to stay...Scott made the comment that these birds can not hold up, if this were true they would not continue to be bred and flown..
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 10:26 AM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1860 posts
Apr 15, 2009
11:33 AM
Mike, Again, I would direct folks to the same article on this site I sent LittleJohn to. Tony was kind enough to allow it to be posted in the RRDC reading room. Click on Searchsite button then type in James Turner; The Man Who Put Color Into Spin. It should take people to it. What I hope people gain from reading that article is that James Turner spends years breeding and flying AFTER taking the desired factor from the best roller he could find, which had already been crossed to import the modifier (this is where the cross breed plays a role), and the type had been refined through several generations of breeding to rollers (before James was willing to work with the bird), and then crossing this roller to his proven performers of the Pensom/Lloyd Thompson line, and testing the ability of the progeny to both spin with the necessary depth, frequency, speed, and quality.....and also express the factor correctly. Once used to import the gene modifier, the cross bred line was removed from his breeding program. This process takes from 7-10 years and sometimes longer. James' real talent and skill was in selecting birds for performance. Once the factor is set into the bird, it works no differently than any other factor found in the Roller, like dilute or grizzle. You don't have to keep adding it back in! LOL! All Color factors/modifiers do is affect the pigment of the feathers. Although many fanciers have made connections between performance and certain factors, especially with Indigo/Andalusian, that connection is not yet clear, though it is discussed as an association, by many, just like dilute, rr, grizzle, etc. All color-modified Rollers will still have the basic red, blue and or brown and most of all the original color modifiers; the only difference being that some may carry or express a few factors not found or not identified in the original imports. Color was added to the Birmingham Roller, nothing was removed. Take sweet milk.....add Chocolate....most will say you got chocolate milk, not polluted milk, though a purist might try to make the point that the milk was no longer pure and disrespect those who choose to drink chocolate milk for fear that all the white milk might dissapear! Smile. You are starting to see through the smoke screen. Go read that article and I will try to answer any questions you or anyone may have. Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 2:00 PM
Yep , nothing left from the other breed except for the color , okie dokie , that chocolate is in reality a turd thrown in, there is a reason that kits of all color birds have never held their own, although you Cliff are trying to change that by breeding sheer numbers to up the odds which is common for those type of birds. By the way I have seen some good Andys, they are physicaly and mentaly stronger that your average mutt, but can they breed and hold up on their own,that hasn't been prooven yet.
(Take sweet milk.....add Chocolate....most will say you got chocolate milk, not polluted milk, though a purist might try to make the point that the milk was no longer pure and disrespect those who choose to drink chocolate milk for fear that all the white milk might dissapear! Smile. You are starting to see through the smoke screen. Go read that article and I will try to answer any questions you or anyone may have. Cliff ) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
In my loft the qualmond and reduced birds are just a strong as the andy's. I'm building subfamily's out of these birds and I realy like the results i'm seing so far. ---------- Ty Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 5:27 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1863 posts
Apr 15, 2009
7:06 PM
Scott, LOL! Too bad you can't tell the difference between chocloate milk and a turd! You don't know what you are missin' dude! As I said before, my Andy's have been highly inbred since the 80s, selected from the air from James Turner to Jay Yandle, to me, and now to Ty. I have birds that were flown by Jay in his NBRC National Championship winning kit a few years ago. These birds were paired and bred by me in 2005, and have produced birds for me that have flown in every World Cup and NBRC National Championship competition since then, six of which are now in the stock loft. In my book, that qualifies as a solid family...extremely stable and plenty able to reproduce themselves. Your unwillingness to accept the facts, does not make them any less valid. In fact, it sorta makes you look pretty silly to continue looking the other way and pretending, in your own mind, that it just can't be so. As a Master Flyer, we would expect from you, a better grip on the reality of what is actually occuring in the roller world, instead of letting your prejudices get in your way. Instead of just throwing stones at another family of rollers, why don't you answer the question for us all, that I asked you in an earlier thread....and you backed away from.....just what does it take for you to consider a family of roller is holding up on their own, such as your family, I presume? Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 7:15 PM
I apologize for any miscommunication. I label 5 fanciers: 1.) Show breeders (those that raise fancy pigeons and breed for color) 2.) Performance breeder (those who selects only performance irrespective of color) 3.) Liar (they breed color and yet pretend they are breeding for performance). 4.) Others (color projects to add to some ok performance birds (compromise), 5.) Nobles (color + real performance = very daring projects).
I think you might see what I am getting into. I think most of Scott's claims, if I read his statement right, is that of #3. There are those in #4. Some people wants to add say certain color to some say homers. And there are also those that like to have a particular color to win, say in racing homers #5. I can think of Dennis Kuhn who wants to have a winning white homers so he decided to do that. I think Turner is on that side as well. He wants to add color and still have birds that perform (#5). That is a noble idea and perhaps the most difficult project.
I think our definition of color breeder is causing us some pain and confusion. I honestly don't find anything wrong with color breeding as long as it is not that of #3.
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 9:50 PM
I am already a man. I have nothing to prove (or manned it). LOL!
At my place I seem to play both as a color breeder and performance breeder. One of my pair of homers are not that good, but they are beautiful so I keep them and breed them (color breeder). I have other pairs that perform well, but they look less beautiful, but I keep them for performance and breed them as well (performance breeder). With all these I don't claim that my beautiful pair performs well else I would end up as #3 (liar). Hope you can see my point. When you claim something that is not true, then you are not manning things up.
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 10:17 PM
rod i agree we should enjoy our birds !!!! i also agree that we should not falsley advertise our birds abilty especailly with intentions of making a profit from them but if a guy has a loft full of pretty colored birds power to him he buys the feed but if u feel u have to voice opinion at least lets do it in a respectful manner
ps. rod u might not have nothing to prove but an offer was put on the table and us being the closed minded unable to see in another mans perspective men that we are i feel its only right the u take the challange that was given lol let the games begin jerry t
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 5:55 AM
I would have thought there was enough standard colors in the birmingham roller to make most people concerned with it happy. Color mine roll. I say lets spend this much energy on performance.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 6:47 AM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1864 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:33 AM
RodSD, Thanks for responding....I understand your line of thought now. But as for #3, they can't lie for long before it gets figured out ..... IF THEY FLY. As to #5 That group is the smallest of the lot, very few are willing to put in the time to do it right or have the skill. To be honest, I am not a genetics whiz so I just breed for performance with this family and take what I get, color-wise, for the most part! Because of the work done by the #5 group, we in the largest performance group (#2) have the choices that we do. Thanks for your explanation. Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 7:35 AM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1865 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:56 AM
jnyce, Of those breeders which prefer to compete, what speaks "louder" to you .....their words or their fly records? Breeders AND their birds earn respect through competitions AND through the respect they show to others. Feather merchants are not exclusive to just one side or the other on the color question. Good points Jerry! Cliff
Cliff i would have to say it depends on the person it was once believed that all a man had was his word but such guys are hard to find now a days. so if i dont feel some one is keeping it real with me i would tell them to put it in the air, regaurdless of color if it meets ur standards then thats the only thing that matters. i will not allow anyone tell me what is right or wrong in my yard i will listen to your opinions if made in a respectable manner but as long as your birds give u joy then guess what your birds are doing exactlly what they are suppose to be doing jerryt
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 2:24 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1866 posts
Apr 16, 2009
6:06 PM
Scott, My burning question for you, is why bother to start a thread like this? We all know your position on breeding for color and appearance. If you haven't changed hearts and minds by now, you never will! I am sure a fancier with your level of experience and knowledge has other useful information to share. Continually posting threads like this, gives the appearance that your only goal is to cause hate and discontent on this site. Bring on the useful information and tips so we can all learn. Tracey
I don't believe that I need to accept his challenge because I never accused the man a liar(If I unintentionally did, I apologize). I don't know the man or his birds (I haven't even seen his birds flying). Again, I hope there is no misunderstanding here. Furthermore, I usually don't accuse anyone until I have facts.
For newcomers, Dont believe Fanciers if all your hear from the mouth is COLOR this Color that. When the truth a real rollerman will talk more about Performance then color.Please dont dilute our wondeful breed adding a non roller for color then breed it back to a bimingham and say it 100% .I understand its your yard and your birds but dont fool yourself or others! Thats the big confusion someone says its a true Birmingham when its really a mutt then they come in here defending it when its a never ending story.In this Case i say Scott is talking solely about performamce, and Cliff is talking about Performance but lets add color and call it a Birmingham.
But Sidlove talking about Birmingham purity is not that easy. There are other rollers that roll and they are not Birmingham. Also we really don't know what is true Birmingham roller unless we have genetic dna studies on those. As I understand reading that Turner article, I believe he (Turner) did it right. What he did is rather simple. Among many color Birmingham rollers he chose the one that performs well and it just so happens that those has some particular color. Now obviously if you breed those birds with that color, then you will get the color in offspring. And if you breed those offspring, then sooner or later you will end up birds flying with the same color.
Now if you are talking about crossing fancy pigeons with Birmingham roller, then I agree that it is a cross(mutt). We can then call that bird a mix breed.
Now the question is whether the true Birmingham roller is a mix breed or just happen to be. I haven't found the answer to that unlike homers that I raised. It seemed that homers we have right now were "made" by breeders by mixing 3 different breeds of pigeons. Imagine that! " The homing pigeon of Belgium is the result of the crossing of the Cumulet of Antwerp with the Smerle of Liege. The Cumulet was described by Mr. Andre Coopers, secretary of one of the Belgium Societies in 1868, as being of Flemish origin with white eyes, and having a habit of flying so high that it was gone from sight for several hours. The Smerle, he advises, is of Wallon origin, with a short beak and having several recurved feathers on its neck. It did not fly as high or as long as the Cumulet, but it was much more rapid. Finally, in Belgium, the Bec-Anglais (Dragoons) were also crossed, and so these three varieties formed the basis for the appearance of the better built, stronger, faster, and more precisely cultivated homing instinct of the modern form of homing pigeon."
http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/
Now I like to know about Birmingham rollers creation.
Sid, Cliff is winning with his birds!He puts his kits up for everyone to see[have you ever seen his best,probably Not].There are two types of peoples that put down others birds,the purely jealous or the ones that will jump off a cliff because some one else says so[excuse the pun].
Sid,Cliff is in his backyard flying the crap out of his birds.Once the birds get up to 300 foot, you would be hard pressed to determine the exact, COLOR of a performer.Cliff is breeding for performance"get a grip,Sid".
Guys,lets not let this color thing go to your head,especially if the guys your talking about will smoke you on their worst day flying.....make sense....Aloha,Todd
p.s. forgive me cliff,this color thing,has always been about ignorance,if the bird rolls,it ROLLS!!
rod i was just having a little fun things get so serious around here sometimes and what does it change ?????? if you dont know i will tell you it changes nothing ---------- jerry t
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1867 posts
Apr 17, 2009
6:08 AM
Thanks for your support, Todd. I'm glad a few guys like you are finally getting the picture! LOL!
Rod, We're good...chalk it up to mis-communication...nothing more....
SiDLoVE, Most of your post I agree with, but there are a few things that I need to discuss with you and make sure you are clear on. "Please don't dilute our wonderful breed adding a non roller for color then breed it back to a birmingham and say it 100%".....I don't know of anyone who competes with this family that does those things...I have never done that, and James Turner didn't do it. James took A ROLLER that carried the color modifier he wanted to add to his family. The rare factored rollers are NOT 100% PURE. That means they carry a factor or color modifier not identified by the original imports. Today in the USA we have 100% pure Birmingham Rollers and Birmingham Rollers that are not 100% pure. The term TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER is a title used to differentiate between a common tumbler and a Roller that performs to standard, according to Pensom. I am talking performance while a few others just make outlandish statements and claim things that need more explanation before we just accept them at face value, as Tracey keyed in on, in his post above. Most guys are tired of hearing the rhetoric and the talk that has no basis in experience. One more time Sid: I don't breed for colors, they are just in my family. Turner did NOT bring in NON ROLLERS to carry the factors. ( Yes, he did experiment with trying to work with a different breed of pigeon ONCE but it failed and he culled the lot... From that fact evolved the false stories that live on today in the minds of a few). Turner DID ADD COLOR to his family and if they perform to standard, then they can earn the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. The same standard any Birmingham Roller must meet. Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 6:09 AM
First thing you do is get a cull from Scott C then go to your local pigeon feather merchant and buy a yellow colored bird that has muffs a crest and a half fantail tail, Pair them up and after years of crossing back to original pair you can put a post on this site and give scott more ammo for his next post on his color vendetta. lol ( : JDA
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2009 7:20 AM
Kham That was a nice video. The Man really loves his pigeons and is trying to produce and reach his goal. Good for him. All this talk about color is really boring and is getting old. As far as the roller goes all colors roll. And for sure they didn't all start out of dark chks. Just my opinion. Jim Bowen
All I can say is thank god for the old timers like Bill Patrick and the others who poisoned my mind. I thank them for it. They were skeptical of breeders especially those who thought is was ok to cross any and everything in the line. The mindset seems to have changed greatly and I like the old ways. The old Native Americans use to tell people not to poison the environment and the water and now everyone and thier mom are doing everything to keep polution out. Wow, maybe someone should have listened to them.
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
377 posts
Apr 18, 2009
7:14 AM
I have tried to stay out of this thread as I believe it is total BS. The basic premise of the "purists" is that Pensom imported 100% of the Birmingham Roller gene pool when he came over. Now if that isn't a ridiculous theory, I don't know what is. I know of no one that is crossing anything onto rollers to produce different colors. It may have been done in the past by some but who is doing it now? Just because certain color factors didn't exist in Pensom's imports doesn't mean they are not indiginous to BRs. Now we have some suggesting that dilutes were not part of the BR gene pool. Anybody that has been on rollers for more than 20 minutes knows that is nonsense. I know if it isn't an ugly old blue check or recessive red it can't possibly be a "true Birmingham Roller". Enough of this BULL, give it up Scott, nobody is listening!! ---------- Keep em Spinning Joe
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2009 7:15 AM
Joe, Delute has allways been in the breed, just not in all families , but that is another topic, Joe many do listen as they were never told exactly what these so-called rare colors actualy are, and there are many that don't allow this pollution into their lofts. The new flyers have every right to know the truth about these so called "rare" colors, sure many want me to shut up about it and they have been trying to shut me and others down for many years through many means. But I just can't sweep this deceit under the rug, the breed as we know it under full frontal attack by a few through lies and deceit , what is posted above is a spoof and yet actually 100 0/0 true of how they operate. I might add also Joe that this tread would have never been started if once again Cliff hadn't of attacked the breed, these guys aren't happy unless their mutz are accepted by all that will listen and they will sway them by any means,which includes denying the very existance of the breed itself. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2009 9:03 AM
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
379 posts
Apr 18, 2009
8:08 AM
Scott, I understand and applaud your desire to educate the new guys as I have said many times before but tell me who is doing it today? You said the breed as we know it under full frontal attack by a few through lies and deceit. I guess I'm dumb because I don't see it. Who is it that is attacking the breed? ---------- Keep em Spinning Joe
