Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2255 posts
Dec 26, 2009
6:21 PM
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Scott
It is not my intention to change your mind at all or anyone's, for that matter. We just need to work together to find out if we can get a majority agreement on whether any wing position is automatically a fault. If the majority agrees that it is, then it is what it is. If the majority agrees it is not...the same thing goes, as far as the NBRC is concerned.
WE are all free to breed the best we can regardless of what the NBRC decides is a scoreable wing position. Your opinion on what is garbage is useful in your backyard, and the same goes for me. I don't think I have ever produced or flown an axel in competition, so it does not really affect me personally. But, as you know, not everyone agrees with you.....or me.
Since the NBRC has no quality standard and has not defined and ranked the wing positions, it is common for different flyers to have different ideas on what wing position they favor. But still it is simply different opinions until the NBRC comes up with what we as a club want scored in our fly.
AS you pointed out, much confusion can exist with our newer members without clearly defined fly rules.
Cliff
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George R.
239 posts
Dec 26, 2009
6:27 PM
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All this Balony about setting standards for this and that .
You guys are making sound as if all the people who accept the position to judge a major Fly are incompetent.
there is nothing wrong with the rules .. why are you Guys trying to MICROMANAGE everything ?
Just worry about what you produce in your Loft and stop trying to nit pick everything in our HOBBY.
our hobby was fine before so lets leave it that way , You Guys are turning into the Pigeon police LOL
Lets just have some Fun flying Birds and as always just be happy that we are able to find a judge and TRUST then to do the best they Can.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2257 posts
Dec 26, 2009
6:58 PM
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George
This is a philosophical exchange of ideas on whether or not there is need to better-define the existing rules. Nearly every breed and every sort of competition, including human endeavors as in gymnastics, see the value in "MICROMANAGING" their sport, as you put it. The "having fun" part is always a high priority in my book. If it was not fun for me, I would quit. The interest in a written standards is designed to level the plaing field rather than leaving the score open to a judge's individual bias and personal standards that can be miles apart as we see in the scores from year to year and judge to judge. And every year theri are more frustrations expressed after the fly...usually surrounding an interpretation of a vague fly rule or a non-existant written standard. It has nothing to do with "policing " anything. Any decision to change any fly rule will need to be approved by the NBRC FLYERS, as usual. My opinion has little to do with how this will shake out in the end. These efforts, if successful, will increase the level of "fun" for all concerned.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 6:59 PM
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George R.
240 posts
Dec 26, 2009
8:34 PM
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Sorry Cliff
but i still think there is nothing wrong with the rules the way they are .
Just because a few Guys judgeing standards are unreal there is no need to start trying to rewrite the rules .
all you Guys are doing is giving more flyers a reason not to fly .
I have always said this and I will say it again " IF YOU GUYS CARE SO MUCH ABOUT OUR HOBBY LOOK FOR WAYS TO INCREASE FELLOWSHIP AND PARTICIPATION".
That is what the Core values of the NBRC and the World Cup should be in my opinion
The NBRC and World Cup dont ever have to worry about the breed standards , The Birmingham Roller will always be a Aerial Performer, What the NBRC and World Cup need to worry about is " HOW MANY NEW FANCIERS DID WE INCREASE BY THIS YEAR ? .
The focus should be on promoting our hobby not trying to make more Rules to please a couple of Guys that FORGOT that Flying pigeons is only a Hobby.
If I would have won the Vice president for the NBRC that was gonna be my FOCUS , I was not going to look for more ways to PUSH Fanciers away from our Hobby. I was gonna challenge all those on the EC to come up with ways that we could make our hobby increase participation and fellowship .
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 8:55 PM
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fhtfire
2364 posts
Dec 26, 2009
9:18 PM
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George why do you think the judging standards are unreal..because they are not "micromanaged"...when you look at other competitions..the rule are a little more defined and set and more then a couple paragraphs..specially when you are judging many different things...the competitions that have numerous factors to look at usually have more on paper.
We are looking for ways to increase fellowship and participation..year after year the bickering about the rules gets more and more vocal...so fixing them will bring more fellowship to competition...the fellowship is there and always will be for the love of the bird.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Change always hurts..but it is always for the best....we have a saying in the fire service...."Progression in the fire service is impeded by 100 years of tradition"...that stands true here today.
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viper
76 posts
Dec 27, 2009
8:28 PM
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When you have a judge from god knows where under your kit and he sees something out of wack you might what to take a second look.I always ask try to ask after the fly anything you liked and would you change any advice.Yes the bar has been raised and the line drawn in the sad so do you keep the same out look or go far the bar?If you stay the same across the pond will keep winning.Blake
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3987 posts
Dec 28, 2009
1:35 AM
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Sense it has been years that we have seen an axle wing roller I think we ought to stop scoring "X" wing rollers in competition and only accept the "A", "H". and "()" as scorable wing positions. Raise the bar a little bit. Then when it comes to past that we no longer see "X" wingers we then raise the bar a little higher and stop scoring "A" wingers.
Well, you see how this bar raising thingy works.
We have already done away with twizzeling that was once respected in the hobby by many of the old guys. Even plate rolling was not always despised.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 2:07 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2258 posts
Dec 28, 2009
5:42 AM
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Well Guys
I hope we all get what we want if the NBRC takes up these interesting issues. I have no problem being convinced going one way or the other, all I want is what best for the NBRC flyers. It is simply NOT that big of an issue. One reason we may have flyers placing low quality birds in their kits is, the NBRC fly rules don't give any guidance along these lines. Which ever way this turns out, "IF" we get a written quality minimum standard for wing positions...... WE ALL WIN! I will go way out on a limb here and bet not every body is happy with the 10 foot suggested depth minimum...... But we use it, we abide by it and we all understand it varies from judge to judge. It could be twinked or raise but it is a starting place for flyers and judges. This discussion is NOT about scoring trash, it is not about keeping flyers out of competition, It IS about better defining our quality standards. If we can do that, we have accomplished something, good or bad in some opinions, it is a starting place.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2260 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:30 AM
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Nick
Here is another thought:
As a hobby we set up this "ladder" that goes ever higher as the flyer grows in his/her ability. I feel we need to encourage flyers to take part in the NCF, to help do that we need to make the "entry level rung" as accessible, as broad, as possible but maintain the minimum quality of the breed. Now is it better to keep that entry level rung as low as possible or raise it? The flyers on the upper levels have learned and earned their way to the top but they all started on the bottom rung. Well, most of us started at the bottom. :0)
Next idea:
I was watching a football game the other day and I thought of a parallel to our discussion of wing positions. What IF, we draw a comparison between kicking a field goal and wing position?
To "SCORE" a field goal, it must be long enough and go between the uprights. But it can be UGLY and still score. It can be low and just barely make it over the cross bar and still score, or it can be way off to the right or left, even hitting the upright but if it goes through, it scores. A high quality field goal splits the up rights. OK?
A roller is defined as performing backwards somersaults with inconceivable rapidity. It must meet the minimum depth standard and the velocity standard BEFORE it can be scored. Now the quality must be awarded by the judge, as the average observed. It can be ugly or it can be a thing of beauty but it gets scored. Just a thought.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2261 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:46 AM
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Nick
Do you think it could be the "Fashion wing position police" in action? The fancy has been responsible for moving us from the single performing action to the kit action. Now, it seems possible that "loud voices" are slowly changing, what once was acceptable to unacceptable? BUT....... the change is very definitely moving the bar higher and at the same time shrinking the number of birds that are acceptable, fewer good score-able birds will "help or hurt" our hobby? I wish my crystal ball was clearer but it is not. If we try to do what is best for the fancy as a whole, maybe we will increase our chances of doing something positive.
If we allow a small vocal minority to move us away from our better judgment, we could do much harm. The problem I see is, which vocal minority is our best choice for the vitality/health of the NBRC?
If we look at the NBRC master Flyer Statistics, those men make up a tiny fraction of our members, if we cater too much to those distinguished individuals, do we run the possibility of disenfranchising the majority of the members? I have few answers but many questions, in fact I am not at all as sure as others, which is the right choice.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2262 posts
Dec 28, 2009
7:31 AM
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Nick
As far as the bar thingy, we as a fancy have created a "ladder" to recognize those that fly in kit competitions. As flyers become better handlers, they learn and earn their way to the upper levels. But most started on or near the lower rung. I feel that we need to keep this entry level rung as broad and as accessible as possible, but keep it within the minimum quality of the breed. We need to encourage as many new flyers as possible to earn their wings and support the NCF. One man's cull can be another man's best. The definition of a roller is its ability to perform backwards "somersault with inconceivable "rapidity." It says nothing about wing position. If such a roller meets the minimum depth standard and it meets the velocity standard, even if it is ugly, in my opinion, it should score. The quality is not the best, in fact it could be the worst, but it has met the minimum standards to be scored.
Then we come to the bell-shaped curve: To my way of thinking the axle position and the shrinking ball are the two opposite ends of the curve. Each has little impact on scoring, because they are relatively rare. The bulk of our birds being scored today are made up of "X" wing, "A" wing, and "H" wing. We need to keep the axle position to balance with the shrunken ball position.
Cliff
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Scott
2747 posts
Dec 28, 2009
8:08 AM
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Cliff this is the surest way to insure that garbage "is" the standard..if it is deemed scoreable than it is deemed acceptable..it is as simple as that.
(As a hobby we set up this "ladder" that goes ever higher as the flyer grows in his/her ability. I feel we need to encourage flyers to take part in the NCF, to help do that we need to make the "entry level rung" as accessible, as broad, as possible but maintain the minimum quality of the breed. Now is it better to keep that entry level rung as low as possible or raise it? The flyers on the upper levels have learned and earned their way to the top but they all started on the bottom rung. Well, most of us started at the bottom. :0)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2748 posts
Dec 28, 2009
8:12 AM
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What velocity standard ? This that you wrote below is why so much garbage is flown in this country.. you have to be frigging kidding me.... the day that judges are forced to judge on what you outlined here as scorable is the day that this fly needs to be killed for the good of the breed.
(If such a roller meets the minimum depth standard and it meets the velocity standard, even if it is ugly, in my opinion, it should score. The quality is not the best, in fact it could be the worst, but it has met the minimum standards to be scored. )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 8:14 AM
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J_Star
2212 posts
Dec 28, 2009
8:20 AM
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George – you said on the first page:
funny .. I am starting to see a pattern Once a guy reaches master Flyer Push to change the rules this way it's harder for someone else to achieve that goal. why didnt they think of these Rule changes before they became Master Flyers. i once asked a Master Flyer 'why cant we fly useing the same rules that you achieved your Master Flyer status with " I am still waiting for him to answer LOL
Then you said in the second page:
All this Balony about setting standards for this and that .You guys are making sound as if all the people who accept the position to judge a major Fly are incompetent. There is nothing wrong with the rules .. why are you Guys trying to MICROMANAGE everything ? Just worry about what you produce in your Loft and stop trying to nit pick everything in our HOBBY. our hobby was fine before so lets leave it that way , You Guys are turning into the Pigeon police LOL . Lets just have some Fun flying Birds and as always just be happy that we are able to find a judge and TRUST then to do the best they Can.
What gives George…Why this contradiction!!!
Jay
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J_Star
2213 posts
Dec 28, 2009
8:27 AM
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Scott – you said:
“The rules are clear Nick.. no judge shall score anything that does not meet his standard.. the problem is when someone actualy judges by a standard... I was not the first to do so.”
I don’t understand…you said “The problem is when someone actually judges by a standard!!!! “ Written standard to make everybody know exactly what the standards are??? But you said No judge shall score anything that does not meet HIS standard… rather than the club written standard!!! That is unrealistic bud.
Why don’t we call the final fly by the judges name who is going to judge it instead of the NBRC Championship fly since the judge is making his own rules and standards….
Are we just arguing for the sake of arguing!!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 8:31 AM
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Scott
2749 posts
Dec 28, 2009
8:56 AM
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Jay..the present rules are VERY clear .. where the judges are concerned it goes from those that score by a min. quality standard on down to those that score anything that wiggles...we know what judges do what..there is a reason that some regions have the goofy scores year after year and why others don't..and it has nothing to do with the quality of kits being flown.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 8:58 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2263 posts
Dec 28, 2009
9:13 AM
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Scott
Perhaps I misspoke, but I was referring to the revolutions so fast you could not count them. I think that is an acceptable velocity standard. After all, you said you use it, right?
And don't forget this discussion is just my opinion, not forcing you to do anything. You can be so flighty sometimes. Just Friggin pigeons, right?
These are just things to put in our discussion, nothing more, just personal opinions. Just like yours.
I want to INCLUDE as many entry level positions as possible. Just what those may be, is the question. I would prefer the EC to make recommendations and the flyers to either accept or reject that proposal, than let judges personal opinions be the standard.
If the NBRC standard is something you cannot abide by, that is your choice. You seem to disagree with a few points of the fly rules now, yet you still use them. Nobody can make you do anything, of course.
Cliff
PS You said, "there is a reason that some regions have the goofy scores year after year and why others don't..and it has nothing to do with the quality of kits being flown." That is EXACTLY why we are having this discussion...to try to bring those extremes of judging scores a little closer together.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 9:14 AM
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fhtfire
2370 posts
Dec 28, 2009
10:05 AM
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Nick,
I dont think an X is an Undesirable trait...an X winger does not stick out like a sore thumb like an Axle roller....the one axle roller that I have seen when I was judging 9C was like pulling your nails across a chalk board....and it stuck out..I actually had to concentrate on keeping my focus off that bird...it was like a flashlight in your eyes in total darkness...but at other angles like the side...it looked OK....the X H A dont really stand out as much....and I have never hears anybody say that an X is an undesirable trait in or when explaining the X position as a position the MANY feel is a cull....I have read in books and magazines the term used to explain axle as a undesirable trait...poor quality roll...undesirable wing position....a cull....not something to breed away from....etc etc...and in conversation....I have never heard and X be talked about that way or published that way...I have heard...lowest acceptable wing position for many.....as explaining a X wing...
I kind of look at it like this...would I fly an axle in my team....NO...would I fly an X wing in my A-team..Yes...would I stock an X wing....prob..NOt...would I stock an axle..NOT IN YOUR LIFE....so if you answered like me....then the X wing is the LOWEST ACCEPTABLE wing position.
rock and ROLL
Paul
I really think these rules can be defined to most peoples liking..and we have to go in with the attitude as making the rules a little more strict...then loose....or we better get used to seeing other countries at the top...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2371 posts
Dec 28, 2009
10:08 AM
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Jay Star
George seem to like to stir the pot or throw shit against the wall to see if it sticks...most that like to shake it up will contradict themselves.....When you have a true stance on a subject and truly believe in a subject or your thoughts....you are straight as an arrow ...when you are not truly favoring a subject or your advice you will be all over the board...kind of like lying....since it did not happen and you do not believe yourself...then again..you are all over the board....because you mind does not lock the information because it is not true....
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
2751 posts
Dec 28, 2009
10:21 AM
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Let me get this straight Cliff.. you want to drag everybody in the US down to the lowest quality kit so that they can get points rather than having them learn what is right and wrong and forcing them to step up their game ?
Cliff do you not understand the concept of these flys ? If it is written that this gargage is scored than that means all garbage MUST be scored by the written rule..the fact is the most frequent kits are these low standards that you want scored (by the way I now see that you eliminated how they exit the roll also SHEEZ )
Here is the facts Cliff..if I was to have judged this fly by these low standards that "you" are trying to impose the order of the kits on top would not be there. In other words the best kits in the country would not have placed 1st 2nd 3rd 4th.. they would have been somwhere in the middle and low quality kits would have been on top.
Here is another fact..we are getting our asses handed to us in the W.C. And what are we trying to do about it ? were trying to justify scoring garbage.. I don't get it.
(The definition of a roller is its ability to perform backwards "somersault with inconceivable "rapidity." It says nothing about wing position. If such a roller meets the minimum depth standard and it meets the velocity standard, even if it is ugly, in my opinion)
(I want to INCLUDE as many entry level positions as possible. Just what those may be, is the question. I would prefer the EC to make recommendations and the flyers to either accept or reject that proposal, than let judges personal opinions be the standard)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 10:26 AM
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George R.
243 posts
Dec 28, 2009
10:50 AM
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Paul And J Star
what I meant by those post was that this new move to change the written rules of the NBRC Fly is being pushed by guys that already achieved Master Flier .
Maybe I am wrong and some Master fliers can state thier opinion and correct me if I am wrong.
Why didnt these guys think of changeing the rules on what should be scored and what shoudnt be scored BEFORE they became Master flyers? they never complained when a LOOSE judge gave them a good enough score to win a fly and accumulate Master Flier points. Why try to change things NOW?
I dont think there is nothing wrong with the Rules the way they are right now. Each judge is asked to do a job and we should be glad they are willing to accept the commitment it takes to judge a major Fly.
Also some Folks think that by changing our Rules it will give us a bettor chance a beating other country's in the World Cup that is BS.
They dont take into account that other countrys dont have the BOP problems that we have here in the U.S.A..
example : when Hanns was here to judge the WC I heard he said he dont ever lose NO Birds to the BOP in Africa and his kit Birds are all 5 to 7 years old, how are we ever going to compete against a Country that dont have any BOP to shred thier Kits like we do here in the U.S.A. ? Also when the W.C. is being flown the weather condition's are much more favorable in those other Nations.
I dont have any doubt that if we let those other Country's fly against the U.S.A. in the NBRC Championship Fly during the Fall we would have a bettor chance at beating them.
Useing the excuse that we need to change the Rules in order to have a chance at beating these other Nations in the World Cup without discussing what advantages these Nations have over the USA like the time of year the Fly is conducted and the BOP issues dont make much sense to me . But of Coarse that is only my opinion.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2265 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:08 AM
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But Scott
You have told us, at best you observed a handful of axle wing positions. I seriously doubt scoring these few birds would change anything in the ranking of the top 30 kits in the 20 bird fly, or the 11, for that matter. C'mon now. You are just exaggerating to make your point.
I was not excluding, finish cleanly, perform straight, not switch wings etc.; the things that are already mentioned. We are only chatting about excluding or including axle wing positions and that is all. That tiny fraction of the overall total birds that you personally saw.
Think of our NCF as a pyramid with a good solid base of flyers and the Master flyers at the top. What ever excludes birds from scoring should be at a minimum. What ever happens at the entry levels has little impact of the regional winners who compete in the finals.
I am not trying to drag anybody anywhere or impose anything. The flyers vote on it! I think your alter ego FRED, is up to no good.
I want the club to set the standards, not each individual judge. I think it is time for the judges to leave their personal opinions at home and judge by a club standard that we all can read and understand.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2372 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:25 AM
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George,
Since I have started there has been complaining about the Rules and how they are so GRAY.....and I am pushing for a change as well as others and we are not master fliers.....Scott C. has talked about this very issue with me WAY before he was a Master Flier. George....why is everything a conspiracy with you...or a secret agenda...we are not the Government...LOL....
The rules will have minor changes...they will just be defined....THEY HAVE TO BE....George you are acting like this is the first time this has ever been brought up.....
It is not being pushed by Master Fliers...Its is being pushed by FLIERS and some happen to be M.F. The rules SUCK...I mean come on...I am a member of other organizations that compete from Cars to Wrestling etc...and on those forums..you dont hear a million different interpretations of the rules..because the rules are DEFINED and there are not to many gray areas....on these other forums..you may hear grumbling about a bad call etc....
I tell you what....I dont know what planet you have been on...but LOOSE judges have been complained about for years....how about all the posts about Eldon when he judged...it was all about LOOSE>..and M.F. were even complaining....Loose or Not....Consistent is the key....I am sure all the M.F. EARNED every point..(except club points) but that is another issue....anyway....I am sure they were the best kit of the day when they flew...they did not EARN the position flying crappy pigeons.
The M.F. that are trying to define the rules know what it takes to get top quality pigeons...hence being a Master Flier...so they want to let EVERY flier know how to get there...and that is to rid the competition of garbage...and the only way to do that is for an organization to do there job and let everyone know what is acceptable and unacceptable...just like other organizations do....if a fliers says damn....If I enter and axle roller it wont get scored....NEW OR OLD flier...guess what..they wont fly an axle roller and they wont breed for an UNDESIRABLE trait....LOok at one of my long posts...I have QUOTES from other National organizations talking about UNDESIRABLE traits..are they are NOT scored in a compeition...that they should be ELIMINATED or Slaughtered or CULLED....lots of organizations even go into depth on why UNDESIRABLE TRAITS should not be allowed...one is because once it is in...it is just has hard to take it out of your gene pool....
You are right..each judge has a job to do....so why not give them the tools to do a good job...its hard to drive a nail with an end wrench....
George..if the rules were defined..WE WOULD NOT EVEN BE HAVING THIS DEBATE....
The other countries are starting to kick are ass a little more and it is NOT the BOP it is that they train there birds to a higher standard...They have Falcons and Hawks in South Africa and they Have them in Europe....and we have them bad in certain areas of the US...I am not having a big BOP issue....and again...dont get me started on why we have an issue...we FLY STUPID...we fly kits to feed the hawks..DUH>.give the BOP more food so those babies they are raising are HEALTHY.....I have 3 year old birds in my A-Team....I heard of European guys in there club flies dont allow ONE out bird....man that will make you think twice about putting in a problem bird....they judge strict..why...YOU PRACTICE HOW YOU PLAY!!
The RULES are NOT being debated just so we can beat everyone in other countries..they are being debated because they are POORLY WRITTEN>....LIke I said..you have better rules defined in kick ball for a 10 year old...any rule that is written so that EVERYONE can come up with there own standard are POORLY written..rules in competition are supposed to be written in a way that EVERYONE can uderstand them and follow them...so the other country winning thing is just another positive aspect to why they need to be changed...there are more reasons to change then not to change.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2373 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:33 AM
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CLiff,
Scoring an axle roller has nothing to do with throwing out a few points...it is not about the ONE little fly...it has to do with allowing and UNDESIRABLE TRAIT in a comp where all should be trying to showcase the best you have...and not showcase a CULL...Cliff..my last big post where I pulled quotes from other organizations on how they handle undesirable traits....CULL...not allowed to SCORE..not allowed to SHOW....etc etc.....letting an axle roller in is letting the new guys know that it is ok and ACCEPTABLE to fly and raise an UNDESIRABLE TRAIT...It forces everyone to raise the bar...to breed better quality..what is so wrong with that.....and the fact an axle roller being removed as acceptable for competition or betterment of the breed..does not mean you still cant say that it is a form of rolling..just not the accepted....it wont affect that many people...and we have so much to gain....risk vs gain cliff....will you risk a small handful of fliers crying about accepting garbage.....and we gain as an organization to accept better bred pigeons and to FORCE others to breed better pigeons..that is the job of any governing organization....should the American Dairy Goat Association or the American Kennel Club..lower its standards so a few newbies can compete....or so that more points can be thrown out...so everyone gets a ribbon...NO!! NO!! NO!!...These organizations are here to keep the breeds at the HIGHEST caliper not nurturing UNDESIRABLE TRAITS.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
2215 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:35 AM
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I on a personal level and of opinion think that we should not exclude the X wingers if they spin comparable to the H and better. However, to discourage flyers, new or veterans, from using such birds is by punishing them with the score sheet. The score will be lowered due to the low multiplier used. It is as simple as that since the NBRC rules and regulation don’t call for X wingers as culls and/or not worthy of a score.
Jay
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2266 posts
Dec 28, 2009
11:41 AM
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Paul
I can agree with a lot of what you wrote. If we accept all basic rolling as scoreable, without regard to wing posititon, and then award the quality multiplier based on the wing position and speed, I believe that there will be a lot fewer differences of opinion between flyers and judges. To not count a series five-bird breaks because a judge thought he sees an axel roller is just as easy to compensate with a 1.0 Q score. I just don't see how this is such a black mark on the breed!
Jay,
The fly rules name no wing positions to be either scored or discounted. The NBRC needs to define each wing position and rank them from best style, highest quality to least quality score-able. Right now we have a sliding scale on the low end that is often where many misunderstandings arise. It may be only 15 dgrees difference between an axel and a low X, and there are some who would say that neither should a low X be scored. But then there is only another 15 degrees difference between a low X and a high X. It is likely to become just another area of contention between flyer and judge, so I think that all should be scored and compensated in the awarding of the multipliers. Few will argue the mid to upper quality levels, (a blurring ball roller is what it is). It is the bottom we must define. Good to see you posting again! How are things going up north? Are you going to be the RD again (I hope!)?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 12:24 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2267 posts
Dec 28, 2009
1:18 PM
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Paul
I enjoyed your remarks about the show rules and traits but I keep going back to the fact that this breed is first and foremost a performance breed, not a show breed. And as such, first and foremost, they must perform. Once that performance has been recognized, then it may be scored. The performance may range to the "truly phenomenal" to just "barely adequate."
Take that cage fighter you know, that 155 pounder that looks like a little surfer dude, long hair and muscled up. I watched him fight on the tube and he is tuff. But not all his victories are one punch knock outs, not all were tap-outs, some went to the judges, not all were clean wins, but he won a lot of contests, some pretty....some ugly, but many he won. You can't take away from his wins because they were not pretty. He performed!
Take football, not all wins are pretty but a one point victory goes in the "W" column just like a 21-0. They performed. Can you imagine taking away a tackle because it wasn't done the way some people think it should be done!?
Performance based contests are different from show awards for type standards. An axle wing position meets the basic performance standard (in my opinion and supported by others) and has every right to be scored, along with every other wing position that meets the performance standard. (I don't like them, they are fugly, but they get the job done.)
Now all we got to do is agree on what that performance standard is. You have an opinion that I respect but I too have an opinion....we have seen Master Flyer opinions on both sides of the issue. Though we happen to disagree, we are within 15 degrees of separation.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 1:26 PM
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Scott
2754 posts
Dec 28, 2009
2:53 PM
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Cliff..why are you fighting so hard for inferior birds to be scored ? Not long ago it was the DQ rule that you were questioning...now this
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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JMUrbon
822 posts
Dec 28, 2009
4:02 PM
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Cliff there are so few qualified to even reply on this subject in my opinion. Unless you have stuud under kits year after year most judges cant even see the difference in the axle and X. Things happen at such a rapid pace that if there are alot of birds rolling in a break or as I have seen in the past alot of action some just cant make the determination as to what is actually rolling to what style. Unless it is a standout bird that catches your eye half your battle is actually trying to determine how many birds really rolled compared to haw many were just playing the part. Believe me when I say I have seen WC and FF winners that I am not sure they could even see that kit let alone be qualified to judge it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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J_Star
2219 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:11 PM
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I think you all missing the point (lol). It is the collective effort of the team and the effort of the management preperaion that is scored, not a bird in a kit that exhibit a low X winger. The x winger will be negligable and overlooked by me if the remaining 19 birds of the kit including the X winger performed in harmony with style, depth and effortless performance.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 6:13 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3817 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:19 PM
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"Anything but perfect is a fault"
Now that's the can of "whoopass" I been waiting for someone to open. Case closed. IMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
2374 posts
Dec 28, 2009
6:28 PM
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Cliff,
It is not about show or performance...it is about what is an UNDESIRABLE trait and what is not...and when you are looking at the Wing Position that is show based..it is what you see..the preformance is the actual spin and speed....once you start looking at wing position that is no difference then a judge looking at the faults in a show ring.....faults are faults does not matter if it is a show cage or a performance competition...our competitions are both...performance and show all in one....the performance is the bird doing what he is doing..the show part is the QUALITY of the roll....Pure Performance is a racing homer..there are no points for how nice the bird flies or the wing position while the racer if flying...hell a racing pigeon could fly backwards the whole time.....yes our birds are a performance based bird..but our comps are a competition of both...anytime you look for the Quality of something or how nice it LOOKS..then you it is show and performance...if it was pure peformance based..we would judge just how may breaks and how fast the birds hit it..and that is it....I get your point totally...but we do have a performance based pigeon that is also judged on how it looks when it does it. I think that is part of our problem..people have just perfromance in their minds but forget that we just how how good they do it too..
Jay....an X wing should not be no scored...it is not the bottom of the barrel and it is really not an undesirable trait....I would put an X in my A-team with no problem and I have one..but when it balls up you have to just catch it at the right angle to see it....an axle wing sticks out like a sore thumb....only from the side and if it is fast you can not really tell...but like I said in numerous posts..you only judge what you see.....and an axle wing is UNDESIREABLE..meaning you would not want a kit of them..and you sure as heck would not stock an axle roller...I am with you Jay..an X winger should be ACCEPTABLE but not undesirable..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2269 posts
Dec 29, 2009
5:31 AM
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Scott
If you don't know by now, I don't know what to tell you. Check back through my posts. I have explained it over and over. Dig up ol' Sponge Bob Fred; maybe he can tell you what this discussion is all about. You seem to have acute understanding.....when you want to.
Had the rules always stated what wing positions were rated highest quality to least quality... We wouldn't be enjoying this heartfelt example of verbal diarrhea. But for some unknown reason you have taken it upon yourself to inform the membership what your opinion is on axel rolling. Now if you would be so kind as to backup your reasoning with something writt, as in the fly rules, I might believe your opinion over mine.
I base my opinion on the long held definition of the performance of a Roller. A roller distinguishes itself from other performing breeds by executing backwards somersaults with inconceivable rapidity. Now the NBRC has defined two more standards, a suggested minimum depth standard of 10 feet and a velocity standard that has long held that the revolutions need to be too fast to count. WE also have a few faults listed, no wing switching, must finish cleanly, must fall straight, etc. Remember? Funny thing...there is NO MENTION of wing position anywhere, neither pro or con. Your opinion is what it is, but it is not fly rules. While we both consider axle positions birds either poor quality or culls, we just need to have the club better define this question for us. Not that it will change your mind....or mine....but just to give all flyers and all judges the same voice as to the minimum quality standard, where scoring is to begin. Whatever the flyers approve, is good by me.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 5:32 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2270 posts
Dec 29, 2009
5:40 AM
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Joe,
I applaud your honesty in your statement, "Unless you have stood under kits year after year, most judges can't even see the difference in the axle and X. Things happen at such a rapid pace that if there are alot of birds rolling in a break or as I have seen in the past alot of action some just cant make the determination as to what is actually rolling to what style. Unless it is a standout bird that catches your eye half your battle is actually trying to determine how many birds really rolled compared to haw many were just playing the part. Believe me when I say I have seen WC and FF winners that I am not sure they could even see that kit let alone be qualified to judge it."
You made my point exactly, as to why I believe that axel wing position is the bottom rung of scoreable performance. And because of these exact points that you raised, I do not want to see a judge using a new rule that might say that breaks should not be scored because he believes he saw an axel roll or a low X in the bunch.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 7:57 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2272 posts
Dec 29, 2009
7:57 AM
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Paul
I agree that the wing positions are just for show and are ranked in their order of appearance. All the rest of wing position "quality " is more "guess and wonder" in my book. But it brings us back to what is the best "RANGE" of wing positions SCOREABLE for the NBRC flyers? And is any wing position automatically a fault? You think the axle position no matter how fast, no matter how deep should not be scored because you think it is not pleasing to the eye? I think to ask a judge to add another question for him to answer in a second, is asking for trouble. And I see no justification in the current fly rules to base a no score on, because of wing position alone. Any wing position can do something, that would be cause, for not to score the bird? IF that is true, no wing position "should" be automatically be not scored without other causes.
Wing positions do not define a roller. Wing positions do nothing more than enhance the quality, if depth and velocity are there first. AND........ falls straight, no wing switching, finishes cleanly, etc.
If it comes to pass that X position is the lowest score-able position, fine by me. However, if it is decided that all wing positions are score-able if they have met the depth and velocity standards and not committed any visible faults, again fine by me. The main point is that we will all know where wing position scoring begins....per the fly rules. On paper we can clearly define quality, in real time, in real life judging, in all situations, not so much. But it is a start.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2376 posts
Dec 29, 2009
8:27 AM
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Cliff,
Velocity and no wing switching are only a couple aspects of acceptable traits....you need the whole package....Hey...I have a bird that is faster then any bird you got...deeper too..perfect form....but it wont kit....one UNDESIRABLE TRAIT ruins the rest....I have a bird that rips no winswitching...but it is an axle roller.....again...the one aspect kills it...guess what goes into a top notch team....X-A and carrying the SPEED and DEPTH>.why not breed to that....having the whole package....is it so hard to let an undesirable trait not be scoreable....no...what will it hurt...you dont see to many of them anyway....and to be honest a certain angles an axle will blend right in..but our birds move and at certain angles that one bird can make the whole kit look like shit....I know a loose roller will...a wing switcher will...and guess what..those type of birds dont make my team period...did I follow NBRC standards...NO>..why..there are none..I had to make my own based on past experience and my past experience is..if you want to win and want to have the best..you remove undesirable traits.....you do that in every sport...except in humans..we CUT the players not cull them....so rules defined will help the flier....they will fly 18 instead of 19 and leave that fast axle roller out of the team .....and that is a right decision....rules are there to force a person to make the right decision....it will assist the new flier in making the right decision..and only fly the best and stock the best...we all know our minds play tricks on you...and trust me...you have an axle roller as acceptable...a person will say just like you..well it fast and deep....ahh what the hell breed it...then you have a family carrying the UNDESIRABLE TRAIT...you DONT WANT THAT>>>>and you even said in your own word UNDESIRABLE trait....and I have shown proof that other organizations dont accept UNDESIRABLE TRAITS>...and why not listen to the organizations that are a little older then us....and actually look up to the organizations as a guiding light and dont make the mistakes they did at the begining and that is try and make everyone happy or should I say..make so EVERY LITTLE FLIER GETS A RIBBON..son no feelings are hurt...over the betterment of the breed..
As far as judging...it wont be an issue..come on cliff...you cut out an axle roller...for one..there are not very many out there....after a couple years of the rules...there should be NONE out there....and all you do is deduct one bird for every axle roller in a kit just like an extra bird...not a big deal...and a judge should judge what it sees...no axle it scores...same bird different angle axle..no score..that easy...I have judged enough kits to know it is not easy...but it is not hard either...and I had to judge Ramsey and DON O on numerous occasions....so I know what pressure is...LOL!!! Don O..is the legend..LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2274 posts
Dec 29, 2009
9:49 AM
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Paul,
Hehehehehe. You're getting as bad as me with those long posts! You make a good case, I will admit. But consider that a huge majority of the breaks scored are 5's, (funny thing how that seems to be so). If one bird is thought to be an axle position, the other 4 will be discounted. All those guys with a couple breaks will now get goose eggs for scores. Like you said, "If an axel roller is in the bunch...I don't think a whole break should not be scored. One bird should not ruin the whole break." And I agree with you. But you KNOW that this is going to happen. But the bigger problem is in misjudging a low X position as an axle position when seen from distant positions not right overheard, and guys will lose breaks. Can you assure us that this won't happen? Of course not. So why open up that can of worms? We can avoid that whole problem if we only judge rollers that perform to the depth standard and we can't count the revolutions and they don't show a fault. If it is determined by a majority vote of the flyers that a certain wing position is not score-able, so be it. But if it is determined that all wing positions should be scored if they meet the NBRC judging standards, don't show faults, etc., then that is also an acceptable option for us.
I just don't see many low quality birds in the final top 30 kits, regardless of where we draw the line for scoring. The better flyers do not use the birds with the lowest depth and quality standards to fly in their competition kit if they can help it.
We need to better define the fly rules. We agree on that. We need to decide as an organization what, if any, wing positions are not to be scored. We agree on that. We need the judges to judge based on the NBRC fly standards? I think we agree on that.
The top flyers, the Master Flyers, the World Cup winners, breed to try to reach the lofty highest depth and quality standards they can. Where ever we draw the line and define the lowest possible score-able wing positions, it will have absolutely no effect on their breeding or flying standards. NONE! The majority of birds seen will be the highest quality birds showcased in the finals.
I am sorry but we have already done what is best for the top flyers, they have some of the highest standards we can write. Now we need to do what is best for the rest of the NBRC flyers. We need to encourage more flyers to join in the fun and fellowship and assure them all judges will judge by the clubs standard and they will know in advance where the line will be drawn and what will be scored and what will not be scored. If we can accomplish that, we will have raised the bar, significantly.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2378 posts
Dec 29, 2009
10:40 AM
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Cliff,
If a flier gets a big 0 for putting in a bird with an undesirable trait...so be it....the key is..the person will learn a lesson and then they wont do it again...I know it stings a little but sometimes a little sting is what someone needs.
If a judge sees a low X as an axle...we cant stop that....but if it is so low that you could mistake it for an axle..again..should not be in the team..thats like saying a bird is an outbird sometimes...if it is on the fence...the you should always error on the side of caution and not put a possible not kitter in the kit..same as a low X..the breeder or fancier knows his pigeons and should not put a bird that is that close to an axle.......
"I just don't see many low quality birds in the final top 30 kits, regardless of where we draw the line for scoring. The better flyers do not use the birds with the lowest depth and quality standards to fly in their competition kit if they can help it."
That is because the top 30 kits are there for a reason..they dont put birds with undesirable traits in there kits or there stock.....they know that..but the new guys dont and they need to know how the top 30 got there....by selecting acceptable traits....you remove the undesirable...you will see more competition for the top spots and the overall picture will be better...
we need to look at the future and not the hear and now..and not worry about hurt feelings...kind of like...hey lets build our society on Oil......not looking at the future and the ramifications....fast forward 50 years later..and we have global warming...wars over oil etc......so....lets look at the breed 50 years from now with good standards vs poor standards...you will have more understanding and with more understanding you have set goals and you know what you have to do to achieve them..right now there are no goals in writing..and so many what ifs or opinions...
Your last paragraph is the whole point......we have done best for the top fliers...and they have done best for themselves by setting standards that are HIGH and that is why they are at the top.....we set the standards of how the top got to the top and we lay the path for the new guys to follow....to get to the top....and that is by putting in writing what got the top to the top...again....Set the standard for the breed FIRST and the rest of the pieces have no choice but to fall into place...then you have a write and a wrong and not opinions....People got to the top for a reason...setting high standards..why not set the goals...most quit out of frustration...not knowing what is acceptable and what is a Non desireable trait...we have to train the new fliers just like we train our birds...but to the newbie..they need to read it and go back and read it again...write now they have a sheet of paper with gray areas and no direction
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Square
769 posts
Dec 29, 2009
11:45 AM
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I really like this post as I feel it will take us to the "Next Level" so to speak... Where we are now,,,in my opion is taking our birds to the next level..Not the whole comp thing in general...We do have a standard, however its in the eye of the beholder...We are now at a level where we are considering eye exams,, and other things prior to one being reconized as a quality judge.. I even hear age mentioned as somehow our eyes get worse with age. In addition Ive herd somewhere in the past that there was gonna be some type of class/traning on judjing a kit of "Bermingham Rollers", this could work. The more I look at alot of the post I relize how open this whole Comp thing was to attack from the begining,,, Just look at the "Red Badges" Back in the P.R.C days that was one hell of a way to prove a point in my opion..LOL!!!... Here is my take and my take only.. I am use to set standards in the fourm of training as everyone is on the same page,, I think that would be great for this hobbie.#1Fourm a commite of solid rollerguys preferabbly "Master Flyers" to lay down the law, as far as standard,Colour, Band, Pedgree, Oneleg, Muff, and whatever else you can tink of.
#2 Create a format/Process you have to complete before being a certifed judge witch includes a eye test or whatever...,,, as well as a re-certification program every couple of years to prove profentency in judging.#3 Have a set number of judges per region that all have attended the same training and, meet the qualifications as a judge. The benifits in my opion would be,, Cutting out the whole "Loose Judge" thing in the prelims of all the major flys. Also everyone being on the same page as far as standars wing position soforth...and less people complaining,,,,Well maby not that...LOL,,, but they cant complain of a "Rouge Judge/Standard" on fly day. That's the upside.., the downside is..... Money and Time and it seems like we deal with that Reguardless....Quality Judjes are hard to find as it is.. Just what im thinkin,,,, whatta youguyises thinkin???/ ----------
"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2276 posts
Dec 29, 2009
11:49 AM
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Paul
As, I said before, you make some valid points. Go look at the MF stats, very few of our membership has the zeal and work ethic and time to want to be a top notch competitor. Many of our NBRC members have no desire to follow the competition leaders. In fact many members are satisfied to just buy bands and get the Bulletin. Yes, they support their region all they can, but have little real interest in trying to win their region.
I agree that in a few years, whatever rules we come up with will benefit the club in general. Something is better than nothing. The future competitors will follow in the footsteps of the others but that will not be a majority of our membership.
I will hope that the EC will bring to the NBRC flyers both options on wing positions so that the flyers can decide and not feel that something has been imposed on them. How many times have you heard ...."what THEY did to us"? I will support whatever option gets a majority of the votes. If the majority sees it as you and Scott and KGB, then I am good with it all the way. If the majority see it like Joe Bob, Rick Mee, and I see it, then I hope that you will, likewise, be able to support it. The By-laws are written so the ones most affected by rule changes can have their voice heard. As you see, few wish to get involved in discussing the issues. Hopefully we have illuminated both sides of the issue so that at least a few more fanciers can make their minds up. But they all have an opinion and if that opinion turns into a vote, we will have the right answer to all these questions.
I see your points. We are either in agreement or near agreement for the most part. You are a top notch competitor and a pleasure to discuss things with. I appreciate the mutual respect we have shown each other in not making this personal and in presenting both sides of this issue for the readers.
I thank you for that,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 12:09 PM
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bman
740 posts
Dec 29, 2009
11:49 AM
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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bman
741 posts
Dec 29, 2009
11:53 AM
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Clean in,clean out; x-wing ten footer,acceptaple velocity = 1.0 JMHO
As far as the rules being to tough to attract new fliers which I am one of. I rather be handed a big fat zero than to have a false sense of accomplishment being handed some "feel good" points.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2277 posts
Dec 29, 2009
12:02 PM
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Ron,
We'll have to do better on the "acceptable velocity" part! LOL!
Cliff
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bman
742 posts
Dec 29, 2009
12:12 PM
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Hey Cliff, I thought that was covered under fast enough that you can't count the revolutions? Or maybe that is another "gray area" LOL. It was 15 degrees this morning and up to my arse in coopers. Nothing will be flying here till March.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2278 posts
Dec 29, 2009
1:50 PM
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Ron,
Well, that's not written down anywhere that I am aware of, so we had better spell it out so there is no confusion. Now we can see how dificult it was for the guys who wrote them the fist time! I'm sure many of these things seemed perfectly obvious at the time, within the context of the conversation about scoreable performance at the time. So we have to keep going back to see waht they intended....which doesn't really work.
Cliff
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J_Star
2220 posts
Dec 30, 2009
5:12 AM
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Cliff,
Why don't you take the by-laws and modify them, add to them and expand on them. Post the final document on here so we can discuss it, modify it, criticize it, condemn it, and/or accept it. This would be a good start moving in the right direction. At least readers can see the proposed complete text in front of them and compare it with the old text. You would get a better and a solid vote from them when they completely understand the impact of it on the way we do business competing.
Jay
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2281 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:15 AM
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Jay,
Not a bad idea, but it would take a lot of work, and maybe all for nothing....
I talked to a few RDs who last modified the NBRC fly rules in 2004-2005, They said it was a very long drawn out affair with many, many ideas brought up for discussion. Almost every RD had an idea to put on the table.
I think after the RDs take office and if the NBRC president chooses to address the fly rules, they should be able to narrow the focus a little, and I'll be glad to help out. It can be an overwhelming and daunting task for any President to take on. Then the EC's recommendations will be submitted to the NBRC flyers. I am just one vote and I feel that the full EC needs to be involved in any choices and discussion made. Each NBRC flyer on this board should be in close contact with their Regional Director to find out what is going on and to share their ideas with. If we all get involved in this process on the regional level, the better the chances the right choices will be submitted to the voters.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2384 posts
Dec 30, 2009
10:04 AM
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Cliff,
I will add to that....I feel that we have a pretty good group of guys on the EC..and I hope that the new President keeps me as the RD for 9B..because I really would like to be apart of these discussions.....but I think it will be a big task..but one that needs to be done...and again..we have enough good people in the EC that I could see good things come out of it.
We should also have a trial period too..to see how it works...and then maybe a final vote by the membership..because it is hard to vote on something like rule changes unless you try it first and see how it goes....most just fight change and not actually the rules.....and once they try it...they might like it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
2254 posts
Dec 30, 2009
10:35 AM
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I am only going to post on this subject one time so here it is.
I have heard from several judges "This is how I judge." The fact that the NBRC has allowed this statment to be made in conjunction with their flys should throw up a red flag.
Scott said
"Let me get this straight Cliff.. you want to drag everybody in the US down to the lowest quality kit so that they can get points rather than having them learn what is right and wrong and forcing them to step up their game ?"
Its not up to the judge to enforce their standards on the fly. Period,end of story.
Why would we want to force anyone to do anything? No one forces you to fly in competition. To enter a competition without a set of rules is kind of crazy in itself. Ghost kits and sub par second kits are entered all of the time without a second thought.Why? To support the hobby.
By Scotts reasoning a new guy shouldnt fly or enter a second kit til he is forced to "step up his game" by allowing a judge to enforce his own set of rules on the fly. Then if the new guy actually makes the finals he is kicked in the teeth by a hardass judge who has a different standard than the regional judge.
Why do we RD`s allow this to happen on our fly and to our flyers? Because we`re "defending the standard"?
Why the subject is going around and around the same tree is very asinine. One camp is " defending the new guy" the other camp is "defending the standard" Problem is there is no standard,just a loose set of rules based on the judges standards.
Scott and Kenny are bent because they might have to do something they dont want to do which is to drop thier superior attitudes and actually follow a set of rules that arent open to interpretation. In turn they keep up this childish drivel of "defending the standard" and the sport is doomed without them and their kind. Bullshit!
I keep getting the impression that some seem to think without the bullying and hardass attitude the new guys will breed a bushel baskets of culls.
Do you guys really think that the rest of the flyers are that inept? That elitist attitude will keep new flyers out of the sport. Just because a guy is new doesnt mean he is stupid.
I dont think the new guys need to be defended either. A guy will either get it or he wont. Most of us joined to be a part of something prestigous. We know theres a lot of work involved. Perfect rollers dont just fall out of the sky into your loft.
New guys can tell the difference between smooth and rough,deep and shallow,in and out. Thats all any of us need to know starting out. If the rules were written in a concise manner without an interpretation clause the new guys would know exactly what they need to do to be competitive without being confused by threads like this.
Wing position isnt even a consideration to a kit in judgement.Its something we talk about during the winter when we cant get outside and you guys know it.
We need to put our differences aside and compose a set of rules that can actually be put to use by the club and the flyers as a guide to competition.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 10:57 AM
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JMUrbon
824 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:02 AM
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Paul I emailed JoeDan recently regarding your position as our RD and I added that you had done us a superb job as RD and myself felt it would be a shame if you were not given the duties again. His reply back to me was that he thaught you staying as our RD was a wonderful idea and if you still was willing to do the job he seen no problem with it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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