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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Scoring Wing Position
Scoring Wing Position
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pigeon pete
477 posts
Jan 05, 2010
1:15 PM
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Thanks flipmode.
You see, that's what I was saying, I knew there must be be a better explination of what scorable rolling means in your rules, rather than just the one line "birds should perform adequate" as you were suggesting,
So, not so much need for head scratching by the newbie after all.
Cheers.
Pete.
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Flipmode
402 posts
Jan 05, 2010
1:36 PM
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Pete, now you got me scratching my head! lol. Please read the rules. That break down is "Only" given in the NBRC 11bird fly rules! lol. What about being listed in the World Cup rules or in the NCF 20 bird rules???
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Flipmode
403 posts
Jan 05, 2010
1:37 PM
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Hey Scott you did a excellent job judging. Keep your standards high.
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pigeon pete
478 posts
Jan 06, 2010
3:45 AM
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Flipmode,
I think what I am trying to say is that the information is out there if the new starter can be bothered to look for it. I don't live in the U.S.A but thanks to you and this forum I now know a bit about your 11 bird fly rules, and the WC rules are there for everyone to read. I havn't done a search for the 20 bird national rules but I'm sure I could find them if I wanted
There is so much information out there, and so many people willing to impart it, that anyone who hasn't got a clue as to what an adequate roll should look like is either a hermit or completely clueless,lol
Put the info into the rules if you like, but I have judged several flys in which every competitor was furnished with a copy of the rules and yet they still didn't know the rules, : 0 )
Peace,
Pete.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2313 posts
Jan 06, 2010
5:40 AM
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Pete
Agreed but if a question came up, you can direct the interested flyer who posed the question to the fly rules, where he can find the answer. That is what the NBRC needs to do..... Just have it answered in the fly rules. What is a good wing position? What wing position is so bad, it CANNOT be scored? I have found NO information regarding wing positions, defining different wing positions, ranking wing positions or whether any wing position is unscoreable.....anywhere in the NBRC 20 bird fly rules or fly policy. All we have is rhetoric and personal opinion, which varies depending on who you are talking to.
If the club would agree on including information for defining a quality standard and put it "SOMEWHERE," we could move on. The best place seems to be in the actual section on fly rules. The 11 bird fly rules do list a few faults and some standards for performance but no definitions of wing positions and no ranking of wing positions.
Because of these continued rancorous debates, the NBRC should settle these questions over different opinions on wing positions.
Different areas of the USA hold different opinions as to soreable wing positions, based on their interpretation of the fly rules, poorly defined fly rules, or fly rules with no information what so ever on the subject. The blame is not with the judges, not with the flyers, but with the lack of information or guidance found in the fly rules.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 5:44 AM
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fhtfire
2425 posts
Jan 06, 2010
10:17 AM
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Cliff,
You are right that something has to be done. I feel and this is just me...any undesirable trait should not be allowed in a show, competition and should not be used as any stock...to me it is simple. All we have to do is follow what other organizations have done that are further ahead then us as an organization.
To me it is undebatable and regardless of where you are located in the U.S. should have no bearing on setting a standard for competition and/or breeding standard. We must remember that as an organization we set the standard as a "GUIDELINE". Our job as an organization is to support and guide new and old fliers to produce the highest quality pigeons. If we dont set guidlines we are not guiding our members to breed for the best and fly the best.
Anytime you keep the standard high the organization will do better in the long run and you will see more top quality animals. An undesirable trait is just that...undesirable. It does not matter if the bird does everything else right....that one undesirable trait is showing its colors and should not be used.
We have to what is best for the breed and organization...not cater to individual fanciers or make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. It is the DUTY of any organiaztion to have the highest starndard.
Every successful organization or team that is accomplished has high standards...it is impossible to win or have the best if you have low standards. That is why I am so confused about the arguments to include such poor traits or lower the standards. Dont we want to be the best...if you want to be the best you have to strive for excellence.
Look at football....if you dont make the CUT you are given a pink slip...only the top players make the tearm...the top players with the most desireable traits.
If you were in a grocery store and saw a display of artichokes....they all look great except one has some rotten leaves... You are making a dinner for 20....will you pick the 20 best artichokes or the one that is showing and undesirable trait...rotten leaves....No you pick the best.
If you were buying a car....two BMW same miles.....same look....but when you start one car it makes a funny sound and has a little less power...the other is showing every desirable trait....YOU PICK THE BEST CAR..and disguard the bad car.
Again, Our job as an organization is to set the standard...as HIGH as possible for the betterment of the BREED...plain and simple. The more strict you are the more you force the members to breed the best. If we make an axle wing (example) a non desirable trait and non scoreable....the only thing that will do is basically raise our standard for the future and you could make the axle roller almost extinct...what harm is that...what harm is it to to guide members to strive for the best.
The fact is...we can do what we want with our own birds and our own lofts...just as a Dog breeder, Goat breeder, Beef Breeder and pigeon breeder can do...but as an organization it is our DUTY to illiminate non desireable traits....the lowest standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2315 posts
Jan 06, 2010
12:04 PM
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Paul
Just keep in mind that the standard above is a "type standard" and not a performance standard. I'm looking forward to working with you to get a performance standard in writing, and to try and clear up some of these gray areas in the rules.
I think many of your ideas have real possibilities to help resolve much of this confusion. We will have our differences but I will defintiely support such things as a written Depth standard that is NOT suggested. I will support defining wing positions, ranking wing positions and even stating what wing positions are not scoreable, as long as we can have a standard that is supported by flyers and judges; an NBRC standard- no more of this "Judges standard". I doubt it will breeze along without a lot of discussion and a lot of negotiations and maybe even some compromise here or there. Who knows how this will turn out, but I feel we must try. If we can write up a "moderate" standard leaning towards the higher levels, not too loose and not too tight, we will do what is needed to benefit all flyers.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 12:05 PM
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fhtfire
2427 posts
Jan 06, 2010
12:35 PM
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Cliff,
The lab standard is for a field dog....that is performance....and it also transfers to the show ring...
The wing position is not a performance standard...that is a show standard..not a show ring so to speak...anytime you have to look at a wing position, arm position...while in movement is a form of show not performance...the bird rolling is performance...our birds are a combination of performance and show while being judged....true performance is measured by the performance..REGARDLESS of the look....a racing pigeon is PURE performance...get from point A to point B...FAST..regardless of what you look like doing it...take michael johnson the sprinter who won the 200 and 400....he had the weirdest upright running style but he was not being judged on how he looked..the key is looked...he was judged on PERFORMANCE...pure look is a show cage...not moving at all..just sitting there...
Most livestock are performance as well as looks...the performance is a strong udder....performance is the milk production...in our birds...performance and looks are combined....just like gymnastics..you have to perform..doing the flips..like our rollers..but you have to do your performance right so it LOOKS GOOD..and it it does not look good...it is usually not being done right...you can have the velocity of an axle roller...just like you can have the velocity of dismount from an uneven bar....even if you the velocity and speed and you stick the landing...if you have your arms out during the move..that is undesirable per the standard set by World gymnastics federation..regardless of speed and velocity...and a perfect exit...there is still a HUGE FLAW...the arm position..I mean wing position.
So...Cliff..we have first realize that are breed and judging of the breed is a cross between performance and the right look performaning..so..it is go and show...Quality of performance is the LOOK of performance...the LOOK is not performance..the action of doing is performance....
I really feel that is the problem....lots...feel like are judging is pure performance and it is not...why some want to Accept an UNDESIRABLE trait is beyond me....why some want the bar to be lowered...is beyond me....why some do not support a standard to force the highest quality of animal in competition and stock so that"Careful selection of breeding stock will improve the
breed as a whole."...we set the standard of what should be bred....and what should be bred should be what is showcased through competition....and when a fliers in SEVERLY pentalized for entering inferior animals....they wont do it again....and they will be forced to raise the standard....and if they dont..well they are not for the betterment of the breed.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2428 posts
Jan 06, 2010
12:48 PM
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Cliff,
You stated
"Who knows how this will turn out, but I feel we must try. If we can write up a "moderate" standard leaning towards the higher levels, not too loose and not too tight, we will do what is needed to benefit all flyers."
that last line is what is the problem...we will do what is needed to benefit all fliers....Sorry brotha..but we set standards and rules to benefit the breed not the fliers....we cant put the cart before the horse...the benefit to the fliers cant be in the equation...it has to benefit the breed as a whole and benefit the compeition that is a showcase of the standard of the breed...the fliers follow the Breed standard....then they enter comp and showcase the standard....and then the flier is benefited..by producing top quality animals...because the top quality animals is what wins....you see...as a breeder you get rewarded for following the standard....you dont follow the standard you get no reward...you get no reward..you either shit or get off the pot...the breed is what an organization cares about...trust me..like Jay says...you built it they will come....its not that hard to do...set the standard one rung above unacceptable and call it good.....excluding and axle roller from being scored..listing it as undesirable but recognize it as a form or roll....score a bird that rolls with speed and velocity a min of 10'. Rolling is the look of a spinning ball. If you the roll is so slow to count the revolutions or wing switching...the bird is not scored...the bird mus exit the roll clean..with no hesitation, tail riding and facing the right direction....
Scoreable wing positions..with photos or pictures...the Axle roller is a form or rolling..although an axle roller can have speed and depth, the axle roll is an undesirable trait and will not be scored and should not be bred from.
X wing-lowest acceptable standard for scoring.
A/H pattern-most desirable trait or wing position. A bird showing speed, velocity and proper exit with A or H pattern is the most desirable trait and is the type of specimin to be used as stock. A top quality pigeon
Note...a top quality pigeon has to meet the minimum acceptable standard in every aspect as defined...Example..speed, depth, kitting and quality. Any one trait that does not meet the minimum acceptable standard or posseses and undesireable trait should be culled and not used as stock.
I mean...that easy..right off the top of the head....it is not hard...just follow other organizations and set the standard....you may get grumbling because of CHANGE not becaue of the rule....but the true pigeon guys will follow the standard and in the future...all memebers will have a better understanding of what they are shooting for and follow that standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2316 posts
Jan 06, 2010
1:37 PM
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Paul
The Standard for a roller judge will give a range of acceptable depth (10 feet up), A range of acceptable wing positions, etc. If you just want perfection scored, we may have narrowed the range to where it is too narrow for me to accept for the purposes of our competitions. If we want to draw a line between poor quality and least scoreable quality, then we can agree on something. But if we set the bar at near perfection, like an H wing, in order to score 1.0, where do we go from there? I guess it's time to reduce this thing to the actual written standard for scoreable performance in competition, including the minimum scoreable performance at 1.0......and this will be different from the ideal standard for performance, which would be a 2.0, right?
We need as broad a range of scoreable qualities as possible including perfection as well as least scoreable. A narrow range accomplishes little from the compeition point of view. Hell, we all are shooting to raise perfect rollers, but if that's all we score, it won't be much fun and competition will decline....and so will the breed. The show qualities will disallow a rabbit with one off colored nail, a chicken with one misplaced colored feather. The performance qualities to be judged, will include a range of qualities. If we can agree that a certain wing position is not scoreable, then can we agree that we can score birds that are not perfect, not only the best ones. We can score a good roller, a 10 foot roller just barely fast enough to not be able to count the revolutions, with wings low but not held straight out to the side?
Much has been said about just judging what you can see. If a kit was made up of 18 dark checks and one lone light red grizzle, almost white from a distance, and you were scoring breaks, then at the 5 minute mark they get in a position to see the red grizzle was rolling with a unscoreable wing position.....they get off to the side and the Grizzle goes in the next break??? Now you can't see the wing position, in fact it "LOOKS good." Do you score it in the break? If it looks good score it? Even if you are aware the bird is rolling with an unscoreable wing position but you are not in position to see it? We score it if we don't see a fault and we don't score it if we do? Right. What just happened to our quality standard? Exactly! They look better on paper than in reality, with real birds, in the real world, in real competitions. Our future standard is a written one, the best we know how to write, fair and best for the club and the breed. Let's move towards perfection one inch at a time and enjoy the ride for we will pass this way but once.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 1:39 PM
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pigeon pete
479 posts
Jan 06, 2010
2:03 PM
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I never judged a dog show, but if I did, and saw a one eyed bow legged labrador with a scrotal rupture I wouldn't judge it because I would be rolling round the floor laughing.
Now I understand where you guys are coming from.
We obviously need to protect those guys who in real life would deliberately buy the rotten fruit.
I think it should be a rule that grocers should have signs warning customers that any fruit that is smelly, rotten, and putrid, may not win a produce show and it is quite possible that it may be inedible. In fact you may find it a better option to buy the fruit without faults.
Sorry guys but I couldn't help making a joke out of it.
I wouldn't have done it if we had a rule to stop me,lol
Anybody know what the conformation rules are in the Miss universe contest?
Pete.
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fhtfire
2429 posts
Jan 06, 2010
2:41 PM
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Pete,
Was not talking about a produce show..LOL..I was just saying that you would BUY the best looking produce....just like you should pick the best looking roller...just trying to put it in another perspective...anything that is sold, scored, played at a high level..or even as simple as the grocery store...the best is what you want....
rock and ROLL
Paul
But the best has to be obtainable....and we all breed for obtainable..
LOL..love your humor BROTHER!!
rock and ROLL again
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fhtfire
2430 posts
Jan 06, 2010
2:54 PM
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Cliff,
With this issue with standard and rules..it is not about us or them..or you and I..it is about one thing only... the breed...as far as narrowing the the criterea...I am not for that at all....all we need to do is define...take out words like we judge rollers not tumblers...well a tumbling means rolling per the definition..and that is a little chink in the armor that complainers grab onto...anyway..Cliff...I dont want narrow rules....we just need definitions...and to set a standard...that is it..a standard will never force someone to do anything..but it will push them in that direction...the whole reason for comps in the animal world is to showcase the best...the animals natural instincts at its best...and usually the competition and show guys are the AMBASSADORS of the hobby etc...they are the ones that let it all hang out for all to see....it is actually a wonderful way of making people follow a standard..but usuing the human competative instinct to nurture proper animal husbandry and breedign standards...its actually BRILLIANT!!...
Nobody wants strict rules...Nobody wants loose rules...nobody wants a standard at the bottom of the barrel...and nobody wants them so high its unachievable....this will work...you know why..the track record of the other organizations....standards work...fair rules work...the process will not be as hard as any.
As far as you still getting points on the gymnast for bad arm location etc....it is basically like our rolling standards...just depends on how bad it is...you fall off the beam or land on your back then you are DONE and that is the worst...a little off we call that an X winger..LOL...I guess my explinations are kind of all over the board..but with human sports we are not judging animals...humans have feeling and drive and determination..you mess up..you practice more..and you cant just throw a gymnast in a stock loft and breed more..LOL..but my example was that quality for something is important as speed, depth and kitting...and we want all the aspects..just one undesirable trait will make the rest not look as hot...Cliff I think we are closer then you think...we just need not be swayed by the fliers but by the breed and bird itself..they set the standard...
rock and ROLL
Paul.......
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 4:09 PM
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fhtfire
2431 posts
Jan 06, 2010
3:01 PM
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Cliff,
We will never be able to set a standard on a 1.0-2.0 because that is the overall impression of the kit..not individual breaks...one bird in a couple breaks cant ruin a team...the 1.0-2.0 is just like the old strike zone..we define the rules that are acceptable scoring....then it is up to the judge to see what he sees as a 1.0-2.0...just as an umpire sees a ball or a strike....I dont think wing position will give the overall impression its just part of it..and the judge as a human uses his own "feeling" on the overall impression of the team...we will never be able to define that...for one..to much going on....and we cant follow every bird..so human error is going to always be there...we just need to set the proper wing positions as a standard...if most are H and A then they will score higher....if most are X they will score lower.....etc etc....if we juding individual birds we could set a strict narrow standard..on wing position as a certain amount of points..but it is impossible...and yes you want to strive for perfections..but there is no perfect animal...that is a FACT...but striving is all we want...does that make sense..I get your point and I agree 100%...we cant make the quality multipliers tied into just wing position..that is overall impression of the kit...
but we can define what is acceptable or not...and that is the most important part..because that is what people use to carry a bird over into the stock loft..and if well written and defined....new fliers will know exactly what to look for....and what to not look for....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2432 posts
Jan 06, 2010
3:31 PM
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Cliff,
you said-
Much has been said about just judging what you can see. If a kit was made up of 18 dark checks and one lone light red grizzle, almost white from a distance, and you were scoring breaks, then at the 5 minute mark they get in a position to see the red grizzle was rolling with a unscoreable wing position.....they get off to the side and the Grizzle goes in the next break??? Now you can't see the wing position, in fact it "LOOKS good." Do you score it in the break? If it looks good score it? Even if you are aware the bird is rolling with an unscoreable wing position but you are not in position to see it? We score it if we don't see a fault and we don't score it if we do? Right. What just happened to our quality standard? Exactly!
Cliff..here is what I posted on Earls and Joe Bob emailed back and said good post exactly how it should be...
Here is the answer to your question...first off you ONLY judge what you see....each time a break ends it is a clean slate for each bird then you judge the break again..on what you see...we do NOT assume that a bird is an axle roller everytime...if you judge an axle from the side and cant see wing position but it is fast as F*&K..then the bird gets scored...if you assume a bird rolls the same way every time..then you are not a good judge....I have some of my top spinners that will have a shitty roll here or there...or some birds that look better from certain angles..but just because a bird rolls crappy one roll does not mean it will do it every time...you judge what you see...NEVER ASSUME....so if you score what you see then it does not matter..because it can go the same way for a roller that slows down for whatever reason..I have had some of my top birds....for whatever reason was slow on the draw and the team breaks and then it goes to break and for whatever reason pulls out and gets sloppy....just from being caught off guard...if I see it...I dont score it.....but the next time that bird will rip one....but the slate is now clean again...hell I have even had an H quality bird actually do an axle roll before...and I think it was because of the moult...it was still semi fast but it did it...but never again..just one day of flying...so..this type of thing can be defined too...with the example I just gave....As far as quality standard..you can only JUDGE WHAT YOU SEE in that particular break....
if you are refing a basketball game and you see someoe hit the floor....but you dont know why..you cant call a foul....you can only judge what you see....
I used to ref wrestling...and if a wrestler was locking hands while in the down position..that is illegal....and even though a kid does it numerous time...and I am at an angle and I cant see..I cant call it..even though I can assume he is....you just cant do it...even if the crowd is yelling...LOCKING HANDs>>LOCKING HANDS>..I still cant call it...I have to get to a position real fast to see if I can see it...so the quality standard is there...but you cant judge quality if you cant see it...
Joe Bob...agreed with this statement.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 4:13 PM
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fhtfire
2433 posts
Jan 06, 2010
3:36 PM
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Cliff,
We are on the same page....FINALLY!! but I think that if we both stop the what ifs...because you can what if anything to death......but common sense plays in to this thing.....and as stated before..if a judge screws the pooch....just like Tom Monson said....dont ask the judge back again...that simple...if it is the finals...then all will be judged the same..and that is what counts.....but we still have to keep the judges standard clause....because that is what lets the judge give the overall impression Q and D ..that is pure as the day up to the judge.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2324 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:55 PM
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Paul
We can change every word, every definition, it will not make one bit of difference if the Judge does not judge by the NBRC fly standards. We have no quality/velocity standards, if we get it down on paper, we will have a depth standard, a velocity standard and a quality standard. NOW the judge can judge by the clubs standard. The integrity rule should shift from a judges personal opinion of depth, velocity and quality to the NBRC written standards. The judge will be the judge but he will not use HIS STANDARD. He will use the written standard for D&Q. He will have a range of values to chose form. But now he will know and the flyers will know the range he will use in his evaluations.
I would leave it to where he is protected from physical and verbal attacks while judging but he will judge by the clubs written rules, approved by the flyers, or we are just spitting in the wind.
He will still call the break numbers, he will still evaluate for average depth and quality per the NBRC standards. He will know the wing positions, the flyers will know the wing positions, we will all know the standards. The judge will still do the same things but his standards will be the NBRC's standards.
I would just wait and see how this goes. I am thinking if your wrote down your standards, the NBRC standards will be very close. We are at odds over the "FEELING" that a judge can do what ever he wants. And he can with in the limits of the NBRC standards. It is that "feeling" that is causing unrest. It is new. It is a change.
That umpire that calls the balls and the strikes, he does so with in the confines or the written rules...... SAME THING here. The judges will evaluate D&Q but in all probability his standard, will now be the NBRC written standard or very close to it. This should not be that great of a shift if we do this right. And NOW both judges and flyers will know the standard. Find that cart and hold on to it till we get things on paper before we start worrying about details.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2325 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:56 PM
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Pete
I had no idea that you raised labs. You might look at your training technique if you damaged the scrotal area. I would support you becoming a judge for the Miss Universe pageant. With your obvious visual powers you could spot a boob job at 100 meters. Now I understand they do butt lifts and other assorted enhancements. I bet you would make a great judge but check with the misses first!
Cheers!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 1:57 PM
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pigeon pete
483 posts
Jan 07, 2010
5:23 PM
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Cliff
I had no idea I raised Labs either, but if you say so it must be right,lol.
I'm sure I would be most dilligent on checking out the boobs and butts, although these days I do need my glasses for close work. One form of livestock is very much like another. Form and movement is easy to judge when you have others to compare with.
It's not the meat, it's the movement.
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