Scott
2781 posts
Jan 01, 2010
11:17 AM
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Actualy Joe.. I'm pretty comfortable with that stance.. You wouldn't take a green kid off of the street and put him in charge of a company would you ?
Why would we want these guys with no experiance and clueless on quality setting standards for the breed ?
There are too many that will refuse to step down to a dummied standard.. some may want to be careful what they wish for.
(I am sure you don't mean to but your arrogance is showing partner when you start telling guys that they don't have enough experience to be involved in the conversation.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 1:00 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4001 posts
Jan 01, 2010
12:57 PM
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Scott,
Arrogance and stupidity go hand in hand.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 1:00 PM
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J_Star
2223 posts
Jan 01, 2010
3:10 PM
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There is no need for calling each other any unwanted name that any of you don't like to be called. Let us keep the discussion clean and professional. The same goes for you Nick.
Kenny Hartman might not have the years in the hobby as others, but he has my respect. You can read his posts and you will only gather intellectual and intelligence in his correspondance. Kenny and Paul F. Started in pegions the same year but I don't hear anyone say that Paul is inexperiance and should not contribute to comp discussion!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 3:37 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2300 posts
Jan 01, 2010
3:31 PM
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Kenny has been at this game long enough to know scoreable performance when he sees it! We are being fed a load of crap to believe otherwise.
Cliff
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Velo99
2260 posts
Jan 01, 2010
7:23 PM
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OK Scott
Heres my pedigree.
Flown 8 times in competition.I made the finals in the WC. My bird won the best performing pigeon two of the last three years at the open show here in Amarillo. I chartered the West Texas Roller Club this year. Started the West Texas Region in the WC and 6b in the NBRC this year. Have been the RD for my regions for a year now and was unopposed in both elections.
I was mentored online by you KGB BMC Joe Urban Jay Alminer Brian Middaugh and others when I first started in 2004. Spent tons of hours on the phone with lots of very knowledgeable pigeon guys. I know what I an talking about when it comes to birds and competition rules. Who do you think taught the guys in my region?
Yeah Scotty its been five years bro. I still dont know why you`re making it a personal attack against me when I have given all I can to the hobby and brought ten other flyers into the arena, bred and given away over two hundred birds over the past five years as well. I am just looking out for my guys,making sure they get a fair shake.
"we won't step down our standard" Your saying that you wont follow the rules unless they happen to co-oincide with your standard?? What other liberites are you taking with the rules?
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 7:48 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4003 posts
Jan 01, 2010
8:32 PM
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Good post Kenny H.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4004 posts
Jan 01, 2010
8:35 PM
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"Your saying that you wont follow the rules unless they happen to coincide with your standards?? What other liberties are you taking with the rules??"
It is all going to catch up with you, Scott. You can't do this by yourself without trying to understand people; their thoughts about fairness; their thoughts about competition; their thoughts about rules and standards. There are many with greater ideas then you or I have that have not been in this as long as you.
It has gotten to the point where I don't give a rats ass what you think, but I do care what Kenny H. thinks and the many others who may have other ideas than I.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 8:57 PM
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Scott
2783 posts
Jan 01, 2010
9:15 PM
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Kenny ..The rules are clear as they stand as it clearly states that a judge shall "not" judge what does not meet "his" standard .. if the rules are dummied down to scoreing culls my judging days (and others)are done... we won't lower our standards.
Luckily the W/C won't face the same threat as the logic of scoring culls won't fly there.. that may end up being the only fly option left if this thing shakes out your way.
("Your saying that you wont follow the rules unless they happen to coincide with your standards?? What other liberties are you taking with the rules??")
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 10:31 PM
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Scott
2784 posts
Jan 01, 2010
9:34 PM
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That is fine Nick.. but I bet you will be paying a little more attention to wing position whether you want that junk scored or not .. Happy New Year
(It has gotten to the point where I don't give a rats ass what you think, but I do care what Kenny H. thinks and the many others who may have other ideas than I.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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George R.
247 posts
Jan 01, 2010
9:51 PM
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Scott
I am on your side just let me know what we need to do so we can stop inferior Rollers from being the new standard and NOT letting whoever is willing to take on the Big responsibility of Judgeing a major Fly see that the Best Kit is Crowned Champion.
I also will only fly in the World Cup if this shakes out the way Nick and Kenny H. etc. want.
Scott please accept my apology's for my fellow Roller men's behavior . I never thought they would turn on you after doing a FINE job in the Fall Fly Championship .
Wasnt there a rule in the bylaws that a fly participant cant BASH a judge or you could Face a one year SUSPENSION.
those who are CRITICIZING Scotts method of Judgeing on a public forum during the last NBRC Fly should STOP or they may be facing some sanctions.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 10:02 PM
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Scott
2786 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:13 PM
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George.. thanks .. but honestly I expected it and knew that it was only a matter of time before this stuff started .. it is a lot easier to just score junk and make everybody happy.. but that just isn't me.
It will have these guys learning to actualy analize the mechanics of the roll and see more that just a bird rolling over backwards... in the long run nothing but good will come from these topics ... Trampus new thread is a good example.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 10:29 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4005 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:32 PM
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George, I don't think we need to start choosing up sides. It is OUR hobby; we are all in this together. Scott is a top notch breeder and flier and should get his due credence. His little snipe about Kenny H. capabilities and knowledge was uncalled for and out of bounds. He put Kenny H. in a situation where he had to defend his own credibility, knowledge, and skills and that should have never happened.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Velo99
2261 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:25 AM
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OK Scott,
Lets back up a step and review this. You started the whole ball rolling when you came on a public forum and asked the axle roller question and stated you wouldnt count them. You KNEW this was going to be as controversial as any color thread we ever discussed online.
In doing so you have revealed to the rest of the finalists whom you recently judged that you hold your personal standard above that of the NBRC. You refused to acknowledge the simple mechanics of a scorable roll in spite of wing postition which is not addressed by the rules that you are supposed to use as a guide during your tenure as NCF judge.
Then you took the low road and questioned not only mine but all of the ,in your words, "inexperienced" flyers standards, integrity and intelligence.
In my opinion your posts have revealed an arrogance and self serving attitude which I personally find distasteful.
Between this subject and the first bird down bruhaha earlier this fall,it brings to light the overwhelming need to define a few areas which are being interpreted in a wide array of decisions that could adversely affect the outcome of a fly.
You keep saying that we "inexperienced" flyers are trying to dumb down the standard,ignoring several statements I have made to the contrary. You complained throughout the time I have been online here about the "silly scores" yet when we attempt to take action to narrow the gray areas and bring the scores under control, we "inexperienced flyers" are attempting to "dumb down" the rules.
I have extended my hand to you one more than one occcasion to help out in this revision only to be called inexperienced,having no business in even offering an opinion on the subject.
At this point my only option is to continue to throw rocks at your glass house.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 6:29 AM
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gotspin7
2623 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:31 AM
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Wow gang, it is getting FOGLY! We just need to let our EC's do their jobs and hope to have this resolved soon. I hope you all have a great fly season. Good luck! I will keep flying as long as, the wife let's me.... LOL
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Salvador Ortiz
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Velo99
2262 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:37 AM
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George
Dont you EVER EVER EVER put words in my mouth.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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toronto15
294 posts
Jan 02, 2010
8:24 AM
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This thread is very informative and educational. It is great to read all the opinions, as you guys are way more experienced than me. I take out of this to be disciplined and ruthless as a breeder.Thanks. Glen.
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gentle johnnie
106 posts
Jan 02, 2010
8:59 AM
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Kenny u up early and got u blood pressure up first thing lighten up I know that Scott can get everyone upset but he does have his right to his on OPINIONS!! Lets forgo name calling on both sides. I have learned to start paying attention to wing position I was just looking at the roll depth speed and how often, Thanks Guys for giving more info on what to look for. I love RPDC make me a better flier I HOPE. GOD BLESS U All!!!! ----------
Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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pigeon pete
469 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:01 AM
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Mr Velo?
Heloo
It wasn't Scott who posed the question, it was Nick.
If you don't like the answer don't ask the question is my philosophy.
Scott wasn't even the first responant who omitted axle wingers from the styles he would judge, it was Donnie, but he doesn't have the same attitude so you guys aren't going to attack him.
It seems a lot on this forum would rather tackle other members of the disscussion, rather than tackling the issues.
This issue would be a non-started in my country.
Our rules, if they address the issue at all, puts the onus on the judge to set a standard.
If you pick inexperienced or blind judges, it matters little what the written or unwritten standard says.
Most judges initially get invited to judge club flys where they get initiated and educated.
If they are seen to be good enough they may get invited to judge the bigger flys.
Even the WC rules state:-
Integrity. The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.
So there you have it, if your personal standard does not permit you to score what you consider to be low grade rollers you don't score them. Those ARE the rules.
We all know the easy judges that will score any bird that sneezes, but they are usually last on the list to be asked.
We also know the guys who have had rollers 20 years and still can't recognise quality when they see it.
So unlike WHP who said you have to have roller 30yrs or something like that, to be able to understand them,
well maybe he was right as few seldom 'fully' understand them, but that aside I think you can quickly train yoursef to recognise quality and style.
Unfortunately many of us don't get out enough and we often make our statements based on what we see at home, me included.
If you change the rules to include wing positions I garantee that the judges will be asking to have it reversed again, or it will be largely ignored as being unworkable. IMHO
If judges accept certain styles as being included in the judging standard, and use them when scoring, then I feel they will be deluding themselves as to the power of their eyesight and their observational skills.
Pete.
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Flipmode
393 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:17 AM
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Here are #7 & #8 World Cup rules about scoring.
7) Scoring. It is mandatory for the region to furnish a timekeeper/scribe for the fly-off judge for each finalist. The judge shall simply estimate and record the number of birds rolling adequately in unison for each break involving 5 or more. The suggested minimum depth for scoring is 10 feet. Afterwards, the judge shall multiply those numbers by 1 for 5-9, 2 for 10-14, 3 for 15-19 and 5 for 20. Those results shall be added together to produce a raw score. Next the raw score shall be multiplied by a quality factor of 1.0 for "adequate" to 2.0 for "truly phenomenal" based upon the judges overall impression of the average quality exhibited in all the turns scored. Likewise, a depth or duration factor of 1.0 to 2.0 shall be multiplied to produce a final score. The judge shall announce the final score before leaving.
8) Integrity. The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers! Roller flying is a subjective sport and the judge may have to make allowances for extraordinary circumstances. In any case, the judge's decision is final and anyone verbally or physically attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be banned from future WC events by the WC committee.
Now, no-where in the 20-bird fly rules do they say "NOT" to score axle wingers, slow rollers, wing switchers, birds comining out of the roll incorrectly or birds changing speed.
1."based upon the judges overall impression"
2."The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance."
As long as it is up to the individual "judge's impression" as to what meets "his" standard for adequate scoreing, and it is "NOT" written in the rules, this will always be an argument. My standard for adequate may be different from yours and your standard for adequate may be different from John Doe's etc.
? Reply to This
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pigeon pete
470 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:35 AM
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Dear Mr Flipmode.
You say:= Now, no-where in the 20-bird fly rules do they say "NOT" to score axle wingers, slow rollers, wing switchers, birds comining out of the roll incorrectly or birds changing speed.
I think the rules are written as a guidance for guys who know what a Birmingham roller should perform like.
I agree that if you fetch deadmen or nobodies in off the street to do the job i.e 'John Does', then you really would have to micro manage their performance and maybe even send someone around the fly with them who has a clue supervisors. As long as we choose judges with knowledge, intelligence integrity and good eyesight, we will have no problem.
If any of the above attributes are lacking in the judge, a few extra rules aint gonna fix it.
Pete.
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pigeon pete
471 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:40 AM
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Even the conference on climate change didn't have so many words as this topic does.
Even the guy who started his first post on this subject with the words,:-- I am only going to post on this subject one time so here it is.
Well he has posted 7 messages so far and seems to be going quite strong, ;0) lol
Pete.
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Flipmode
394 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:50 AM
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You are right Pete, but I think that some judges/flyers new and old would like to see the rules on what is scoreable defined a little better. Like in the 11-bird fly rules. It wont completely fix the arguing but I think it will lessen it.
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JMUrbon
830 posts
Jan 02, 2010
10:19 AM
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Flipmode, I se your concerns, Howerver I dont agree with them all. I am an advocate for clarifyibg the rules but I believe as Pete does. If you cant identify a quality kit or ever have the slightest doubt that you can then you have no buisiness judging a national fly. Keep it to the local level. I like to determine a judges worth as far as quality minded by what he is able to put in the air. If he is able to pick a quality team out of his own birds that I have confidence that he can pick a quality team anywere. I dont want a guy judging my birds that has never put a descent kit in the air. Not at least for a national fly. I truthefully dont care if he is a 5 year flier or a 30 year flier. As long as he can demonstrate that he is able to identify quality birds than he is qualified in my book.
What you will get if you try to tighten the rules instead of clarify them is you will have judges ignoring them. The human is only capable of seing so much in a certian time frame. Dont put more than humanly possible. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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winwardrollers
399 posts
Jan 02, 2010
11:27 AM
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Right on Pigeon Pete...."As long as we choose judges with knowledge, intelligence, integrity and good eyesight, we will have no problem. If any of the above attributes are lacking in the judge, a few extra rules aint gonna fix it."
Joe urbon some good insite.
I will just say let the Judge be the Judge after he has been selected/nominated to do the job, new rules or not.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 11:44 AM
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Flipmode
395 posts
Jan 02, 2010
1:40 PM
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JMUrban you said:
("Flipmode, I see your concerns,")
Joe wheather the rules are changed or not will not affect my judging views on what to and what not to look for in a quality kit of rollers. I just think that if the rules are more clarified some judges and flyers especially the newbies will be less confused on what should be and shouldn't be scored.
("If you cant identify a quality kit or ever have the slightest doubt that you can then you have no buisiness judging a national fly."
"Keep it to the local level.")
Some judges have tighter standards then others. There have been "Well known judges even with master flyer status" that have given out scores in the Thousands in the "National and World Cup finals", and some that would've given those same kits 500 points.
("What you will get if you try to tighten the rules instead of clarify them is you will have judges ignoring them.")
If they are ignorning the rules then they shouldn't be judging!
As long as the rules stay like they are then this thread will reach 1,000,000 post by the end of this year. It wil be an endless circle! Whats so hard about explaining the rules so that they are better understood?
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JMUrbon
832 posts
Jan 02, 2010
4:45 PM
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You are missing my point. I am all for clarifying the rules. I am not for hog tying a judge. What I mean by ignoring the rules is just as you yourself said in your last post. They will not effect you judgement as far as what to look for. I have been doing this long enough to know what a quality roller is. I can see where the rules could be clearer for guys unsure about what they are looking for. I have seen quality judges blow a call but they are human. I guess what I am trying to avoid is a huge bitch session after every major fly. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Flipmode
396 posts
Jan 02, 2010
4:57 PM
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O.K Mr Urbon I got your point:)
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Scott
2789 posts
Jan 02, 2010
5:47 PM
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Joe is right.. you can't hog tie the judges ..And Pete you are spot on with this.
(I think the rules are written as a guidance for guys who know what a Birmingham roller should perform like.)
Usualy when there are problems it is flyers not understanding what a good pigeon is or what a good team is supposed to actualy do.
A buddy once told me " put a team that can't be denied and the judge will score it" I have found this to hold true.
The fact is the top kits in the Nationial fly could not be denied and the cream of the nation rose to the top and won..and watching the way Hannes judged the W.C. last year I new real teams of Birmingham Rollers led the pack in that one also.
More time's than not it is the guys that have done little or nothing in the major flys doing the complaining... and the last time there was an issue in the Nationials was when the judge wouldn't score birds that didn't exit the roll correctly ..same issue.. he refused to score inferior pigeons.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 6:16 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2301 posts
Jan 02, 2010
7:43 PM
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Joe
If the Rules simply defined the wing positions, ranked in order of highest quality to least quality, defined what ever was unscore-able quality. In your opinion, would that benefit the judges and flyers, so we all know fundamentally what we as a club, expect to be judged? Would this clarification tighten the rules? Would it encumber the judge anymore than what he has to do now?
Cliff
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JMUrbon
834 posts
Jan 02, 2010
8:18 PM
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I think it is fine to identify the different types of quality however as a guideline and not open for discussion after a judge has made his call. I only say this because it is impossible for any judge to be able to see everything going on in a kit and any one saying they can is full of it. What I percieve as a scorable roll is not always agreed apon by all and the owner of the kit is always going to be the one to cry wolf if he thinks something should have been called. Cliff I also think that an axle roller needs to be left off the list of what we consider a scorable quality. I see axle rollers lumped in with the wing switchers and just the plain out flutterers. Some will score all of this crap but that doesnt make it acceptable. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 8:21 PM
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pigeon pete
472 posts
Jan 03, 2010
1:45 AM
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Cliff,
Even if you put stuff in the rules as a 'guide', you will get controversy. Guys still argue as to which is best A or H, I personaly think an A will be an H from another angle etc etc. So who will decide the order?
Look at the suggested 10ft minimum depth. loads of guys will argue that you cannot score an 8ft roller, but it doesn't say so in the rules, the rules suggest a 10ft minimum as a guide, but they refuse to read the rule as it is written and will adamantly say that the rules don't allow you to score less than 10ft.
If we didn't have any guidance, guys wouldn't be putting 10ft teams out to squeeze inside the minimum depth 'rule'. If they thought they may get a judge that didn't score anything below 15ft it would keep us on our toes and we would all be trying to put the best teams in front of the judge not the least we can get away with and still win.
Thats maybe not how you or I would think, but you do see a lot more short birds in competition since it was clarified that 10ft birds could be scored. It works both ways
Pete.
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 1:47 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2303 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:39 AM
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Joe,Pete
I have no problem with 10 foot minimum that states that the Judge shall score birds that meet his best estimate of 10 feet or over. NOT SUGGESTED. You'll get no gripes from me if the depth standard is raised. If that is what is agreed to
I have no problem with the subjective judging of wing positions as long as we all know what is scoreable and not scoreable.
All that is necessary to help avoid a lot of this confusion is better information as to WHAT IS A BETTER BIRD. The flyers need to know what exactly is expected of a good kit of Birmingham Rollers, a better kit of Birmingham Rollers and a Phenomenal kit of Birmingham Rollers.
This business of "HIS STANDARD" The "judges Standard".... should be the same for each judge and understood by each flyer. WE can do better than this... If we want to.
I want to see how we as a club want to address some of these issues. I can easily see how we can define Axle positions as un-score-able and not confuse them with score-able positions.
If we had all scoreable wing positions defined and ranked in the fly rules the judges job is simply to AVERAGE of the birds scored from the position the kit gave him, for Quality multiplier. Sure, flyers will not always see it the exact same way BUT WE WILL HAVE a minimum threshold to begin judging defined. Each judge will have a standard to show the flyer why is judging the way he is.... It's in the rules. No more of this "I WILL SCORE THIS WAY OR THAT WAY" it will now be defined in the rules for every judge and every flyer. It can be addressed in as few words as possible but still do the job.
WE have the framework in place, we can do better if we try. We need, the fancy needs better written, better defined fly rules where the judges standard is known and respected by all.
I think at times, we are arguing over the philosophy of judging more than the definition of the words used in judging. There is nothing we can do about, the judge counts 9 birds or 10 birds, there is nothing we can do if the judges quality multipliers is 1.0 or 1.5. But we can define what wing position (IF OBSERVED) is score-able or not score-able. The minimum depth is 10 feet and that is the judges best most accurate estimate of 10 feet..NOT SUGGESTED. The judge does not set the standard he simple abides by it.
The judge is still, counting, estimating depth, quality, identifying faults but he no longer sets standards, the NBRC will set the standards.
One other thing, If the EC gets a chance to address these issues, I will hope that the standards will remain just as high as they are now, just as strict as they are now... just better defined. No one is out to up-set the applecart, believe me.
Cliff
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Velo99
2263 posts
Jan 03, 2010
7:18 AM
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Guys
All that needs to be done is set a low and high for an acceptable wing position. We have a sentance stating the competition is for rollers. Roll is smooth top to bottom rolling with sufficient speed to render the revolutions uncountable and coming out clean for at least ten feet. We have a depth minimum, a speed minimum and a continuity standard,but no wing position standard.
I got this one from Dictionary.com as its relative to our discussion.
"To cause to revolve or turn over or over and over."
This description coupled with the other elements of the written standard are what the judges scores for a break and five points. This is why wing position is not mentioned. An axle is a roll. I dont like it but it is a roll.
It cant ALWAYS be distinguished from a different wing style due to the angle of vision. Thats why it has to be listed as the bottom of the barrel.
I have stated several times there HAS to be a minimum for a maximum, left for right,up for down.
To not establish something is illogical.
Some think this is going to open the door to a mass breeding of axles wingers. Anyone serious about competetion is not going to keep birds like that in thier kits. The numbers of axles actually flown has been minimal so I dont see why there has been such a uproar over a slight clarification over a couple of points in the fly rules. I am not proposing scrapping the rules as we know or dumbing down the rules in any way,axles are being scored now in certain situations anyway,just a simple clarification. All of the flyers calling for high x wingers as the minimum need to put thier personal feelings aside and look at the actual definition of roll.
Here it is once again "To cause to revolve or turn over or over and over."
If an axle could be distinguished EVERY time it was performed I would be for calling x wing as a minimum, but it cant be distinguished every time so it has to be established as the minimum for the roll standard.
Put your personal feelings aside and read this with an open mind and you`ll have to agree with me.
The effect I see on competition is to add a very few points here and there and adversely affecting the quality multiplier to counter the points added to the raw score. That should satisfy the flyers and judges who like myself do not like an axle.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Flipmode
398 posts
Jan 03, 2010
9:39 AM
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Scott you said:
(I think the rules are written as a guidance for guys who know what a Birmingham roller should perform like.)
(Usualy when there are problems it is flyers not understanding what a good pigeon is or what a good team is supposed to actualy do.)
(the last time there was an issue in the Nationials was when the judge wouldn't score birds that didn't exit the roll correctly ..same issue.. he refused to score inferior pigeons.)
What if a new flyer is flying in the W/C or NCF prelims for the first time and he is scratching the hair off of his head because his kit is working "adequately" but the judge isn't calling any breaks. After the fly the judge tells him that his birds weren't scoreable because they weren't "adequate " enough and exited the roll in opposite directions.
Then the flyer pulls out the rules from his pocket and points out that the rules only tells him that all his 15-20 birds have to do is:
1.)Fly for at least 15min,
2.)Kit together,
3.)Birds should perform "adequately"
4.)5 birds must roll together,
5.)Birds should roll a min. of 10ft
The rules should be made more clearer at least for the "New" and less expirenced flyers. It should be written in the rules that if a bird doesn't
exits the roll in the same direction it started from it won't be scored. Give a break down of what "Adequate" quality is? What is a 1.0 quality roller?
New flyers need to know and understand what ("a good pigeon is") and what ("inferior pigeons") are and ("what a good team is supposed to actualy do.")
Not ("for guys who know what a Birmingham roller should perform like."), but the the "New" flyers who dont know.
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 11:28 AM
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JMUrbon
836 posts
Jan 03, 2010
9:43 AM
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I dont feel at all like it will open the door for a bunch of axle breeders. I think anybody that has witnessed a great bird doesnt forgrt it.
What I do think is this will open the door for a bunch of crying and whining. If that doesnt happen I will be very surprised. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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pigeon pete
474 posts
Jan 03, 2010
10:25 AM
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Flip,
Which competition has just those 5 rules as the flying rules? if it's your local club no wonder you want to change the rules.
Or have you just picked them rules out of a list to try and make a pointless point?
I never saw a set of rules that just used the words 'birds should preform adequately'.
I never yet saw a list of fly rules that didn't say that the judges desision was final.
That rule trumps all the other rules.
If a judge blatantly ignored the rules then an objection would be made.
Whats the point of making new rules when lots of guys on this forum don't even know what the present rules are?
Do your rules really state that a roll is-- etc etc ------with a minimum speed?
Does it really say coming out clean. and does it really say a roll has to be 10 ft.
It would help clarify things for oldies and newbies alike if sources could be quoted, or rules/clubs referenced, because I've never heard of some of these rules/definitions and if I was the suspicious type I might think you were making half of them up.lol
A roll is a movement, however described, and you can get slow ones and fast ones and less than stable ones
Again it is down to picking good judges.
A good judge should tell the newbie why his birds are not scorable, and he will be able to do this standing under a kit of rollers better than reading any rulebook.
Lets imagine that it was a rule that high X wings were the minimum style to score. How many newbies would know what the hell that was all about until a judge or experienced flyer explained it to him while watching rollers?
How many judges would say, "I don't care what you say they don't look high X enough to me", and so on.
I don't think you can learn how to recognise a quality in a roller by reading books or rules. It has to be demonstrated in the air, usually many many times.
Pete/
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Velo99
2266 posts
Jan 03, 2010
10:28 AM
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After further consideration I have come to the conclusion that there is never going to be a reduction of the gray areas to the degree that the definitions will be a sufficient remedy. The more we define the further we restrict the hobby as a whole to grow.
From Pete
The grey areas are the spaces people look for between the rules.
You can reduce the size of these areas by putting in more rules and definitions.
You will have more rules.
You will have more spaces.
The more I thought about it the more sense it made.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 10:29 AM
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Flipmode
399 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:17 AM
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Pete said:
(Which competition has just those 5 rules as the flying rules? if it's your local club no wonder you want to change the rules.)
I have never seen just 5 fly rules, and I'm not saying change up the rules, just clafiy them better.
(Or have you just picked them rules out of a list to try and make a pointless point?)
What pointless point? That the rules can be written a little more clearer?
(I never saw a set of rules that just used the words 'birds should preform adequately'.)
OK Pete, how about worded like this "1.0 for Adequate quality" same thing! My question is what is "Adequate"?
(I never yet saw a list of fly rules that didn't say that the judges desision was final.
That rule trumps all the other rules.)
You are right. "In any case, the judge's decision is final" and "The judge shall not score anything that does not meet his standard for Adequate quality".
Again Pete, what is Adequate????
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 11:20 AM
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George R.
250 posts
Jan 03, 2010
1:23 PM
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Ken said
"The more we define the further we restrict the hobby as a whole to grow."
BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!
"
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Scott
2792 posts
Jan 03, 2010
2:41 PM
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You are right Kenny.. I have singled you out.. please accept my apology.
Scott
(I still dont know why you`re making it a personal attack against me)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2309 posts
Jan 03, 2010
5:29 PM
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Kenny,
I hope you haven't let the personal nature of the attacks and disrespecting you, begin to sway your opinion. That's part of the plan, you know.
Well, If everyone wants to let it ride....all I want is what's best for the flyers. I think we should see what the president asks of us. Maybe he will narrow the focus to something that is not so overwhelming or divisive.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 5:58 PM
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J_Star
2227 posts
Jan 03, 2010
7:22 PM
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WOW...What a ride!! Any more input!! We are just acting like a cat chasing it's tail...round and round. We are all dressed up but nowhere to go. What a shame.
Scott, thanks for your post to Kenny.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 7:24 PM
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pigeon pete
475 posts
Jan 04, 2010
8:17 AM
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Hi Flipmode.
Thr only reason I asked about the rules is because you wrote,==
Then the flyer pulls out the rules from his pocket and points out that the rules only tells him that all his 15-20 birds have to do is:
1.)Fly for at least 15min,
2.)Kit together,
3.)Birds should perform "adequately"
4.)5 birds must roll together,
5.)Birds should roll a min. of 10ft
My point is that your example was misleading because no set of rules I've seen ONLY tells them this. It tells them more than this.
Likewise the adequate - 1.0 is an extraction which takem in isolation means very little.
Again I would suggest that anyone entering a National fly that doesn't know what a roller is, well maybe they are jumping the gun.
Would you volunteer join in a gunfight without at least learning how to load the bullets into your gun?
YITS
Pete.
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JMUrbon
841 posts
Jan 04, 2010
5:44 PM
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I was just reading one of Kenny H's prvious threads and pulled this quote out of it,
"In doing so you have revealed to the rest of the finalists whom you recently judged that you hold your personal standard above that of the NBRC. You refused to acknowledge the simple mechanics of a scorable roll in spite of wing postition which is not addressed by the rules that you are supposed to use as a guide during your tenure as NCF judge."
If I am not mistaken the rules actually say-
------The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.
Scott did exactly what the rules state. Nothing more and nothing less. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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kcfirl
626 posts
Jan 04, 2010
5:54 PM
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Scott,
you can judge my birds anytime!
I am trying to figure out why anyone would want to bash a master flyer that put his heart and soul into judging this fly and scored it EXACTLY as the rules state he should (to his standards).
Scott has judged my birds several times over the year's and while I don't always agree with every call, he has my utmost respect because he calls it like he sees it.
What more do you want?
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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J_Star
2228 posts
Jan 05, 2010
7:12 AM
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Ken, I don't think anybody is bashing Scott.
Jay
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Flipmode
401 posts
Jan 05, 2010
9:11 AM
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Pete said:
("My point is that your example was misleading because no set of rules I've seen ONLY tells them this. It tells them more than this."
C'mon Pete we are talking about what is required in order for birds in a kit to score you know that.
1.)15-20 birds, Fly for at least 15min,
2.)Kit together,
3.)Birds should perform "adequately"
4.)5 birds must roll together,
5.)Birds should roll a min. of 10ft
("Again I would suggest that anyone entering a National fly that doesn't know what a roller is, well maybe they are jumping the gun.")
Whats so hard about giving the NEW flyers a break down of how an "Adequate" roller should perform in a kit in order to be scoreable? Like the break down in 11-bird fly rules! I also think the 11-bird fly break down would make a good defination for how a "Adequate"/1.0 quality roller should perform.
Judging Standards(NBRC 11-bird fly)
a.The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
b.The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
c.The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
d.Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
e.Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
f.The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit.
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Scott
2798 posts
Jan 05, 2010
9:54 AM
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Jay.. I don't think that thier accusations were well thought out .. and yes inexperiance on thier part came into play.. which is why I backed off... basicly with their accusations they were more or less saying that this fly was null and void and we all wasted our time and money.. did I get a liitle pissed... you bet.. but I got over it.
The fact is I put my life on hold for nearly two month's to make this thing happen.. and easy it wasn't... dwell on that for a second on what it would take... I have been well aware of the rules from top to bottom long before this fly.. this was far from my first rodeo.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 10:32 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2311 posts
Jan 05, 2010
11:24 AM
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Scott
I agree with your basic premise that we can learn a lot by watching kits, watching the judge, talking to our mentors, etc. Take speed limits for example.For speed limits to work, both the policeman who enforces the limits and the drivers who abide by the signs up and down the hiway, MUST KNOW the posted speed limit. It does no good for just the policeman to know the speed limit.
We have different judges who have different standards, and we have flyers who do know which standards the judge will support. We have misunderstandings about the rules, with the current lack of information which must be known, understood, and followed by both judges and flyers. Everyone interested in raising the bar and making this fundamental knowledge available to all interested NBRC members, needs to support the EC, NBRC governing board to solve this problem. The policeman does not write the laws for the same reason the judges should not use their personal standards. The governing entity writes the laws for all citizens, even the police must abide by the laws. The NBRC should write the standards for the judges and flyers. The judges will then use that standard to judge the competition. The flyers will then also know the standards. This system of rules and judges will work if we want it to. Do we as a National Roller club, want it to work? That is the question.
In my opinion, much of this misunderstanding revolves around the total lack of information to guide both flyers and judges in the identification and scoring of wing positions, which are the best quality, which are least quality and which should not be scored at all......... that should be found in the fly rules. This kind of information is FUNDAMENTAL for all flyers, it should not be kept a secret from anyone. The NBRC must take appropriate measures to see basic knowledge about quality is written into the fly rules for all to see. Not all will understand, not all will agree but we must move in that direction if we are going to grow in our understanding of Quality Birmingham Rollers. We have the entire USA to educate, and we can't have pockets of flyers believing differently from each other. The NBRC should address these issues and the Flyers should be the ones to approve or deny such actions. I see no benefit from keeping these issues from being solved, voted on and settled one way or the other. I see a very close relationship between the mushroom industry and how we educate flyers and judges.... We keep them in the dark and feed them BS.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 2:02 PM
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J_Star
2229 posts
Jan 05, 2010
1:12 PM
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Scott, I appreciate your time and effort judging the final NCF. It took time, travel and great effort from your part to pull it together. No doubt.
I thought the whole thread was about wing position and how we would consider it in our competition but not how you judged the competition. Being a good judge is not easy to do, so please don’t take this discussion personal.
Jay
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