bman
743 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:07 AM
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Kenny,here here.
"We need to put our differences aside and compose a set of rules that can actually be put to use by the club and the flyers as a guide to competition"
That is it in a nutshell. If you read the rules AS WRITTEN; adequately rolling in unison / no defintion
no waterfall / no definition
suggested depth of ten feet ?
no mention of wing position, no mention of velocity
Looks pretty gray to a beginner in my opinion.
I am all for a higher standard but let's define it.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2283 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:09 AM
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Paul
That is an idea I have also had. Change the rules, vote them in but for two years they are "under review." If unforeseen problems arise with any one rule change, the EC has the option to simply bring back the old rule until the problem can be identified and rectified. Then it is represented to the flyers for approval. Very similar to yours. The problem with waiting is the EC make up could change and any cohesiveness could be lost.
I agree that with you on the EC, we stand a good chance of making long lasting improvements to the fly rules. You are the spark plug we need to get things moving in the right direction.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2284 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:12 AM
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Kenny H,
You are a level-headed guy and I sure hope you are hanging around for the next year or two to help get this mess (created by poorly written fly rules) cleaned up and done right? I know we can all work together, respect each others opinion, and not let personalities or name-calling even enter the room. I think Paul is right that we have some good guys on the up coming EC, and I hope you are going to take part, too.
Cliff
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Velo99
2255 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:42 AM
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Cliff
I am in for`10
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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fhtfire
2386 posts
Dec 30, 2009
11:59 AM
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YEah...Kenny! Kenny!...Kenny! LOL...I am looking foreward to this challenge and I think it will be great for the hobby and I think the rules will come out the best for all...the main thing is defined...define some things.
Ron..you said it the best..as a new guy..the rules are not defined...One example to me was the BOP attacked rule...I had a flier want a time out because a BOP was in the air...it was not ATTACKING the birds..it was actually in a different part of the sky...I said as a judge no time out..the kit has not been attacked...he then stated well my birds are flying different...again..I said I dont see your birds every day and I cant tell if they are flying different and the key word is attack...meaning to go after..to do harm...if a guy is walking down the street with a gun strapped to his back...he is just doing that..but when he starts shooting at me..he is attacking me...so even that has to be defined..but I actually thought the word attack said it all..
Cliff...the two year trial is a good one..then we can actually see how it works...the best way to do it is to test it then put it in stone...we do that all they time in the F.D....test it..see if it works..if it does we vote and all is good..if it does not...we got back to the drawing board....Plus it is easier to make a good sound bit of judgement by testing first...sometime what looks good on paper sucks...example our rules now..but it can go the othere way too.
Joe..thanks for sending the email...I have told him I would be honored to continue to be the RD...and I am looking foreward to it.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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wishiwon2
255 posts
Dec 30, 2009
12:52 PM
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Paul said,
"As far as an axle roller being judged...hey if one is ripping from the side....and I cant see the axle..then it is scored..plain and simple..I can or we can only judge what we see....so the axle roller IS NOT scored by mistake...it is scored by the angle and what you see....now if I see an axle roller from another angle and the axle is evident..then dont score it because you see it..and it should be by a break by break if you dont see the axle on that same bird the next time..then it is scored again....same can be said for any bird....some colors look slower or un balanced at certain angles and a break at a bad angle will not get as good a break..but a different angle it could be a good break....so as long as the judge judges what he or she sees I dont see a problem with not scoring an axle roller....and I have had birds rip 10 awesome rolls and then one loose crappy half ass...same bird for all breaks but one break that bird may not be scored...so it would work out just fine. We never assume that a bird is doing the same roll every time..and I hope not....is should be after each break you mental picture on individual birds resets...but you overall impression stays in memory....."
This is what is happening now, correct? And yet you are a proponent of writing more detailed scoring rules. I dont believe a specific, detailed rule is going to make a judge see any better. The limit seems to me to be the human. It is and always will be a subjective evaluation.
I am tempted to join the camp of wanting more detailed rules. However, I dont believe it needs to be explicit or highly detailed, Simply a bit more clarification of what the minimum adequate roll is. Even then, as has been illustrated before, the human eye and mind is only capable of capturing so much at one time. (If a large group breaks, it is impossible to make several individual evaluations simultaneously) It will, therefore, still be a subjective point of view, an impression. If we attempt to bind ourselves to a detailed prescription, we are only fooling ourselves that it can happen.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Scott
2764 posts
Dec 30, 2009
2:27 PM
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That is quite a slam for a guy that has flown a couple of flys and have no experience ..and we have guys like you two wanting to set fly standards ? Thanks but no thanks
P.S. It is absolutly the judges job ..
(Its not up to the judge to enforce their standards on the fly. Period,end of story.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 2:44 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3819 posts
Dec 30, 2009
2:39 PM
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Argh...off with ye head Pirate Paul...ye have not ravished but a wee number of fair maidens to be boasting about such matters of weight and importance...argh
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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JMUrbon
825 posts
Dec 30, 2009
3:13 PM
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It is and has always been the judges discretion. You can say what you like and even put it on paper what you want a judge to score but the fact of the matter is that when he is under that kit it is his call and if you screw with that you will have a difficult time finding quality judges.
Anybody can judge a kit of rollers but what you will get is the 2000 pt kits that are nothing but garbage. Now I am not going to say that there have not been some great kits that recieved high scores but I have witnessed some garbage kits get high scores that would have been lucky to get 100 pts had I been scoring them and anybody that knows me and how I score knows I am more of a middle road judge and by no means a strict judge. I like to see them do it rite and do it clean with better than 10 feet. I will give 1.0,s out all day long if they are deserved. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3994 posts
Dec 30, 2009
3:34 PM
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No Scott, only you and guys you select are qualified to set any standard. Hell, we all know that. Geeessssshh!
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 3:35 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2285 posts
Dec 30, 2009
3:42 PM
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Jon
You bring up a good point about what can the judge see. Try This: "IF" the difference between a non scoreable spin and a scoreable spin is depth and wing position-quality; at what point in distance should judging stop? If the judge can clearly estimate the breaks are meeting the minimum, but he can't evaluate the wing positions or velocity, is it too far away to judge accurately? Can anyone see wing positions at 100 yards, 200 yards? But you can make out birds in a break and they are performing for the minimum.
Anyone want to take a shot as to what they feel is a good rule of thumb?
At realistic judging distances on windy days all this discussion about wing positions starts going sideways, in my opinion. Yes, we are kidding ourselves mostly.
Simply estimate the number of birds performing, not committing faults and try to evaluate the best you can, the quality and depth. Sounds soooo simple and can get soooo complicated so quick.
Yes, the written rules, definitions, guidelines, will always be only as good as the judge can see. But right now we have judges setting the minimum standard that "THEY" will judge. That judges "standard" can be and "IS" in some cases different from judge to judge. WE as an organization should set the perimeters for the scoring to be done and the judge stays within that boundary so both flyers and judges know the rules, top and bottom. Then we have other gray areas that need some better explaining so we all are more on the same page. All we can do is try our best and then the flyers will have their chance to agree or not. The way I see, right or wrong, the flyers vote is the EC committee's safety net, if the EC makes a mistake.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 3:44 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2286 posts
Dec 30, 2009
3:52 PM
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Scott
You talk like "INDIVIDUALS" will be writing and imposing the rules! It will be the NBRC EC; regional directors that were voted in by their regions' members or appointed by the president. They will collectively draw up some recommendations that the flyers majority vote will rule the day. That is the democratic process.
Have you no faith at all in how the club is run? If the process is so flawed, why are you even a member? Paul may very well be the best representative from your region and you will be well represented to the best of his knowledge. There will be RDs with more experience than you and some with less, so what? They stepped up to the plate to help with EC duties. To start this line of thought when nothing has been written down on paper yet nor the new NBRC EC seated yet, shows a little more of a particular side of your character than I want to see.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 3:52 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2287 posts
Dec 30, 2009
3:56 PM
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Joe
Why don't we all just wait and see what comes out of the EC and gets presented the NBRC voters before all this gnashing of teeth and so-on and so-fourth? The judge will still have discretion as before, he will just no longer be able to say what is a fly rule and what is not. Ture, he will still call the counts, he will still assign a Depth and Quality multiplier. He will still watch the clock. He will do much of what he did before. But he will judge by the written standards of the NBRC and not his personal opinion. I know that some guys who judge are scared to death of that. But I will bet most of the written judging standards will closely follow your personal standards. It is just that we will ALL be aware of the standards, judges and flyers alike.
I have told everyone there will be changes, there is no way around it, not all will be happy, no way around that either. But at least wait till something gets validated by the flyers, before the preverbal sky falls. And I doubt anything will happen except a few stars may dim, a few trmors caused by loose stones and maybe a loud clap of thunder or two from those who thought they were gods (With a little "g"). LOL! After the clouds clear the sun will shine again, birds will fly and judges will judge, and more good times will be had by all.
Cliff
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JMUrbon
826 posts
Dec 30, 2009
4:17 PM
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Cliff I have said in the past that I feel the rules needed some clarification. I am all for that but what I am not for is a lynching squad of new fliers looking to question every break that I call or another judge calls because all of a sudden 2-3 years into flying rollers they know more about a quality roller than I do.
By my past threads I am not stating that I dont want the rules gone over and clarified. I suspect that the EC will put alot of thought into this befor anything is finalized. Good luck with this. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Velo99
2257 posts
Dec 30, 2009
5:11 PM
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Paul
I dont want to dumb down the rules by any means. The guys that are so opposed to the revision seem to think that is the point of the discussion.
Judges interpretation will always be part of the sport whether we like it or not. What I would like to accomplish by this is to get all of the judges closer to the rules as they are written.
I learned more by a zero from Heine than from almost any other judge I have met. There should be more judges that judge by a strict standard without injecting their own standard into the rules.
By addressing the point most recently brought to the forefront by Hannes,break initiation.
Hit the wall all at once or instantaneous is what the intent is but what it says is in unison which doesnt mean instant. Hannes still didnt count breaks because they didnt hit the wall. Was he right or wrong? These are the type of issues that need to be addressed.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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fhtfire
2390 posts
Dec 30, 2009
5:47 PM
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Kenny...then we are on the same page..and that is a good thing..LOL...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Get your sword, shield and helmet...we will be going into battle soon...LOL
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Scott
2765 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:11 PM
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Kenny ,every "legit" break I saw he (Hannes) scored.. if they hit the wall and he didn't score it was because the quality was sub-par...and yes solid teams should break like they hit a wall...that is a huge part of what the best do .and that was his job..to find the best.
Kenny, you guys are very new flyers with absolutly no one to guide you.. you need to be learning from world class flyers like him (and like Kenny Billings)...not making excuses for junk kits.
These major fly finals aren't supposed to be amature day..these flys are supposed to be looking for the top teams of the world or in my case the Nation.
(By addressing the point most recently brought to the forefront by Hannes,break initiation.
Hit the wall all at once or instantaneous is what the intent is but what it says is in unison which doesnt mean instant. Hannes still didnt count breaks because they didnt hit the wall. Was he right or wrong? These are the type of issues that need to be addressed.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 6:36 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2288 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:12 PM
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Joe
I just don't see that (new flyer thing) happening. Jay the past president, is a board member, both BOB's are board members. The old hands will keep things on the up&up. We have a lot of experienced flyers who are RDs that I will expect on this board. Then each and every change must be approved by the NBRC flyers.
We will need all the luck we can get.
Thanks.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2289 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:18 PM
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Kenny
How Hannes/Heine judges, is the domain of the World Cup. I doubt anything the NBRC does to better-define its Fly Rules will also be adopted by the WC or even have any impact. But you know all this, already. We can only try to work on NBRC fly rules that will benefit the NBRC flyers. I haven't heard of an NBRC judge muffing a call due to the kit having to hit the wall, have you? I agree that we need to take a look at that rule, but I have heard of no NBRC judges screwing the pooch, like the foreign judges have, on that prticular issue. Please let me know if you have heard anything different.
Cliff
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Scott
2766 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:22 PM
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For what ? you gotta be kidding me.
(but I have heard of no NBRC judges screwing the pooch, like the foreign judges have, on that prticular issue. Please let me know if you have heard anything different.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 6:22 PM
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steve49
367 posts
Dec 30, 2009
6:54 PM
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would it be hard to video a top performing kit, one with good wing position and depth? this video could be a standard. i am surprised the WC and NBRC sites don't have one on their sites for us newbies to learn the differences.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2391 posts
Dec 30, 2009
7:14 PM
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steve,
Video does not due a good kit justice...but yes I am sure you could videotape a bird with an A..H...X..and axle if you can find and axle..they are hard to find...because most ring there necks before anybody can see them...LOL...I really feel that there should be more on the website...wing positions..maybe a couple videos of a bird wingswitching....etc...that is a great idea....go to youtube...you will see some kits working pretty good..and you will se some slow motion stuff too from the discovrey channel and one of those birds is wingswitching when they speed it up....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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birdman
772 posts
Dec 30, 2009
7:41 PM
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Homing pigeons are looking better all the time...LOL
Just plain old performance as to who clocks at what time. PURE PERFORMANCE without a judge's personal interpretation of the rules. The fastest birds win. PERIOD
Just my opinion of course.
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George R.
245 posts
Dec 30, 2009
8:19 PM
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Scott and Kenny B.
I owe you guys a apology , I got lost on this discussion somewhere and I thought you two were the ones trying to change the fly rules. I have always trusted the Judges to judge the Birds as they see fit , and I dont see anything wrong with the Rules as they are written.
I also want to say that in all my times attending Comp. fly's regardless if they were Club or Prelims, I have never seen a kit that didnt deserve to win take top Honors.
So apparently the Rules must be working in my opinion.
All this started because a guy that dont even fly comps suggested that Scott wasnt fair because he dont like Color Birds. That is not the truth and everyone knows that .
I am confident that the Best kit won the NCF in 2009 and that should be the end of the Story.
I hope that the real veteran Flyers ( 10 years and more) are able to stop the push to change the Rules.
I am surprised by those that have only been Flying Birds for 5 years or less and they all of a sudden know what is right for all the NBRC flyers.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 8:25 PM
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J_Star
2221 posts
Dec 30, 2009
8:53 PM
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Are you afraid of change George?
No one is talking about changing the rules!! The discussion is to better define them for the idiots to undestand easily and no personal interpertaion become the focus. Please re-read Paul's long posts for clerification of the objectives.
Paul, Cliff, Kenny...remember, when you build it, they will come.
Jay Alnimer
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 8:58 PM
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fhtfire
2394 posts
Dec 30, 2009
8:59 PM
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Hey George...
You can fly 20 years with two years experience or 2 years with 20 years experience....just because someone flys for years does not mean that they are an expert on how rules are written....we should all look at each individual for what they are bringing to the table...not how many years on the job so to speak...I have firefighter that have 25 year on and you would not know it..totally RETARDED...then I have firefighters with 5 years experience and I have more faith in there abilities...
We should look at the TOP fliers not years in..because the TOP fliers obviously know what a good standard is..that is whey they are at the TOP....
The fact is...nobody wants to do a complete overhaul of the rules....we just want to DEFINE them....make them clear and cut out the gray areas...the rules for the most part are fine just need to be tweaked.
Fore example....We like birds that ROLL not tumble....we cant even use the word Tumble...why...the definition of tumble is to roll.....or spin....in gymnastics tumbling is rolling or spinning....and the dictionary uses an example of tumbling..to roll or do a sumersault.....what do are birds do...backwards sumersaults....this is just an example...we say we judge rollers not rollers (tumblers)..lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 9:01 PM
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fhtfire
2395 posts
Dec 30, 2009
9:02 PM
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Hey Jay...which long post...LOL..LOL...to many of them..and sorry for the spelling or missing of letters..I type pretty fast but I make mistakes and when I am in thought I dont stop typing...because I get distracted by shiny objects....LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
246 posts
Dec 30, 2009
9:14 PM
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J Star
I am not afraid of change but if the best kit is always winning the Flys why would there be a reason to change anything ?
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pigeon pete
467 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:02 AM
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The grey areas are the spaces people look for between the rules.
You can reduce the size of these areas by putting in more rules and definitions.
You will have more rules.
You will have more spaces.
Pete.
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michael salus
94 posts
Dec 31, 2009
7:07 AM
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LOL, Pete Happy New Year!!!
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MJ
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wishiwon2
259 posts
Dec 31, 2009
8:55 AM
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Whew my eyes need a holiday ...
I understand what youre saying Paul, Ive been following here and other lists you have explained yourself, even before the baseball rule clarification ... lol. My point of quoting you, is that if we intend to add clarification to any rules or more closely define some of them, we have to be aware and carful that we dont create a set of evaluations that are so specific they cannot be followed due to the human link.
Cliff - you commented about distance away from a judge to be viewed accurately, that is only a part of my point. My point is when judging a break, a group rolling together, there are lots of things to try to process all at once; Ex. did they all initiate the break together (how many), which ones rolled deep enough to score (how many), which ones rolled with enough quality (how many), were there any that had rolling faults that precluded them from being scoreable. That is alot for the human eye to take in and the mind to process all at once (3,4,5 seconds). Then here we come and wanting to create definitions and clarifications to rules that require a judge to make increasingly more detailed evaluations during that same event. Im saying there is a physical limit, and we are only kidding ourselves if we think we can do it all. We need to be realistic in our expectations of what we can do as judges.
At some point we have to accept that it is the judgement of an impression and is subjective.
I do think there is some room for improvement in our description of what is minimumly scoreable. But, I see lots of those who are proponents of clarification getting carried away with it, want to make too detailed of interpretations. I really dont think the language we have is that far off what we need. I, as a judge do want to be cornered in by excessive language and descriptions of what should or should not be scored.
I dont like to hear about widely various scores. But I can only comment on what I have witnessed first-hand, anything else would be assumption. When we assume it makes an ass- of -u- and -me. I dont have much to complain about the judging Ive seen. And a judge or his judgement has never detracted from my enjoyment of the event. I accept their judgement for what it is, really, it is their opinion of my kit.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 10:54 AM
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steve49
368 posts
Dec 31, 2009
10:48 AM
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Birdman, i think the fact that the breeder has to define what is worth keeping that makes rollers so much more interesting and difficult at the same time compared to racing homers. if a young homer doesn't make it back, he's no longer in the gene pool, whereas the best breeders continue to produce the best birds because they're NOT AFRAID to cull the so/so birds. i'm wondering if i'll be able to decide who stays and who goes at the right time. afterall, we're all trying to breed the best rollers, but not all take the same path!
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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steve49
369 posts
Dec 31, 2009
10:52 AM
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about video, i have seen some of the youtube videos, and for the most part they're pretty good. however, video of some of the best kits needs to be documented on the web, and i just think the WC and NBRC site should be able to do that. a quality video camera is all it takes, and the kit doesn't have to be competing, just performing. its tough for a newbie to read all the posts online, and try to 'imagine' what the writer is talking about. many of us don't live close to other flyers, so we're just not able to see the kind of quality many take for granted. and i'm sure all those that take the time to contribute here want the hobby to march forward, and without the proper education, time might have a way of defeating this hobby.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2290 posts
Dec 31, 2009
3:59 PM
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George,
I beg to differ with your assumption that he best kit always wins. I have seen many fly competitions where the best kit did not win, and have heard many, many stories from regions around the country where the best kit did not win. Weather is a huge reason for this, but judging has played a part, as well. It is naiive to believe that "the best kit always wins".
There will be several NBRC members with over 10 years service on this EC. We will also have the benefit of at least one Master Flyer with more than 10 years of flying under his belt and a few distingushed HOF members. And I agree with you that the recommendations that come out of the EC may not be best for all the flyers. But the flyers have a choice to either approve or disapprove them. Whichever way the majority vote goes, not all of the flyers will be happy...obviously those who are in the minority and with very strong opinions. There will be cases where "opinions" are no longer supported by the fly rules and there will be cases where "opinions" do seem to be supported by the fly rules.
In my opinion, we need to better define the fly rules to help avoid misunderstandings among flyers and judges alike. You know as well as I, that after every competition, NBRC or WC, there is a debate brought up by a flyer somewhere about a situation where the flyer's interpretation of a fly rule is different from the judge's interpretation. That's what needs to be eliminated. It may not make a difference in which kit wins, or it may do so. But if it puts more people on the same page as the judge as to the interpretation of the rules, then eveyone will have more fun. This is not about putting shackles on our judges.
Example: "....birds rolling adequately in unison for each break of 5 or more.." Not all score-able breaks are where the birds appear to "HIT THE WALL", some birds break as the dip and turn into the wind, some hesitate more than others, some don't hesitate or set up at all, some break with the wind at their backs. The point is, there are a range of acceptable ways for a kit to break. Whether the judge has the option to choose only one particular way, out of the possible choices, and score only that, may need clarification. All we are trying to do is list the possible choices available for the judge to score. He will judge all the choices available and sort them out using the multipliers to which he thinks exhibited the best depth, style and speed.
If we think it appropriate to help the judge evaluate other characteristics not scored now, like tight kiting, extreme kit sensitivity, flying pattern, NO out birds, etc., we could try to implement "kiting points" similar to how the English do it. If we view the 20 bird fly as a Team sport why not find a way to reward TEAM qualities? Right now we only score the breaks of 5 or more and we are only interested in evaluating those birds that performed it the breaks. Kitting points could add more to our evaluation process. If kitting is such a valued part of our fly, lets look for ways to recognize those qualities? The English flyers evaluate kiting.... Just a thought.
Do you have anything that you would like to see added that would help in evaluating our kits that is not done today?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 4:01 PM
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Scott
2773 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:51 PM
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Cliff.. I pray this thing dies a quick death.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2292 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:55 PM
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Scott,
I know you probably wish that you had never brought it up! LOL! Ask a simple questiona about whether axels should have been scored and......
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 4:56 PM
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Scott
2774 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:04 PM
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My hope is what ever happens we become more competitive on the world stage since we are getting smoked .
I fear what ends up happening is a dum dum standard..as that is exactlty what a few including yourself are pushing for .
Just a thought but why not use ALL of the master flyers input ?
After all havn't they prooved themselfs ?
Why would guys that have never done anything fly wise on a Nationial or WC level and have little experience have a part in something that affects us all ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 1:22 AM
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Scott
2775 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:05 PM
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And most said no..they are culls
(Ask a simple questiona about whether axels should have been scored and......)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Mongrel Lofts
636 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:23 PM
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Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 10:16 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2295 posts
Dec 31, 2009
6:41 PM
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Ken,
Sometimes your perception of reality seems so distorted that it simply amazes me! To say that style menas nothing to those who believe that scoreable performance should begin 1.0 at axel rolling is utterly assinine on your part. So you are going to try to convince us all that also Rick Mee, Joe Bob Stuka,both Master Flyers and Joe Bob a World Cup Champion, both of whom have also come down on the side of scoring 1.0 performance at axel rolling, earned their accomplishments because STYLE means nothing to them? Try telling that to THEIR faces! LOL!
Your trivial attempt to minimize those flyers who have a different opinion than yours is absurd at best!!! Of course faults DO matter in scoring spin. Some do not get scored, based on our existing rules, and some result in a discounted or minimal score.
With regards to scoring height, what is your rule of thumb when it comes to how far is too far? I was asking a question not stating a preference. Where in the rules does it state an axle wing position is good or bad? Or any wing position is good or bad? I can support that an axle wing position is poor or the least quality of the wing positions. I don't reed 'em and I don't compete with them. Whether they are scored as a 0 or a 1.0 not a whole lot of difference... TO ME!
Wing positions do not define a roller. Depth and speed are, in my opinion, more critical factors. But each flyer values different qualities in his birds.
Faults do matter when scoring rollers. Quality matters when scoring rollers. Depth matters when scoring rollers. Velocity matters when scoring rollers. Kitting matters when scoring rollers. Out birds matter when scoring rollers. Lots of things matter when scoring rollers..... But somehow I think you know all this already.
Have a Happy New Year.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 6:43 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
637 posts
Dec 31, 2009
7:58 PM
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Cliff,
But style is one of the fundamentals of a quality roller. Axle stle is worse than a wing switcher in the mind of most any quality minded breeder of Birmingham rollers. What ever is wrong with Mee and Joe Bob I will never understand. I guess they just want CULLS scored. The other faults you mentioned above are no worse than axle winged rollers. I feel sorry for guys like Ty and Nick. Who don't know the difference between a qualitie roller and an axle winged CULL. I feel sorry for them because they are being taught to except such cull in National competitions by a guy who knows no better himself!! They profess a cull as the syandard as adequate to be scored because guys like you are leading them to believe crap is scorable!
Pensom was telling the future when he said competition would ruin the standard of the Birmingham Roller. If you don't think the standards set by our National clubs effects what its members fly. I ask you to just look above at Ty's post about what is exceptable. He has been so twisted by your Lack of standard and holding up same. He believes scoring the bottom of trash quality and standing up for that poor standard makes sense. Its a sad day for us when we teach others to except crap as adequate! That's my honest opinion and always will be. I like you personaly Cliff. I just think your ideas and like of a standard hurt the breed. We will just have to agree to disagree on yet another Birmingham roller basic. Purity of the Breed and holding up the performance standard passed down to us. KGB
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Velo99
2258 posts
Jan 01, 2010
5:58 AM
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Billings
There you go with the assumption that guys have to be told what quality is. Why is it that some believe that everyone except those who agree with them are unqualified to raise and fly birds to a decent competition standard? The point of the entire discussion for the last few weeks has been the standard and its gray areas.
What needs to be established is the bottom. Axle wings are not desirable to breed or to fly in competetion. However if a bird rolls with enough speed in a clean roll it is scorable.You cant change the fact that the rules dont address the wing style in present form. Common sense and intent arent addressed in the rule.
"The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers!"
This excerpt from the rules is the crux of the problem.
Its too subjective,relies on personal opinion rather than a set spectrum of acceptability. If theres a high there HAS to be a low. The low end of the spectrum has yet to be established hence the 100 thousand words that have been written in the discussion on both lists.
The rule says rollers not tumblers. If a roller performs with proper speed,no hitches it should be scored.
In a kit a 300 feet 99% of the judges wont be able to see the wing position and some have a difficult time picking out the birds who are actually rolling.
What needs to happen is the intent of the rule need to be defined or the discussion will never end. Scores will continue to be all over the place and there will be no resolution.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Scott
2777 posts
Jan 01, 2010
7:54 AM
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Kenny ..at 300 ft if you can't see wing position it is because your eye's aren't trained to see anything.. that is one of the prime reasons guys with your lack of experience should not even be in this discussion.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 7:58 AM
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gotspin7
2619 posts
Jan 01, 2010
8:06 AM
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Scott, I see you are starting of the year with a bang, bang eh? LOL..
Kenny ..at 300 ft if you can't see wing position it is because your eye's aren't trained to see anything.. that is one of the prime reasons guys with your lack of experience should not even be in this discussion.
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Salvador Ortiz
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Scott
2778 posts
Jan 01, 2010
8:12 AM
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Here is another Sal that doesn't have enough experience to be in this discussion.. and one that wants to lead the way to dummy up the nation.. why is there such a feverish support junk being scored ?
(Wing positions do not define a roller. Depth and speed are, in my opinion, more critical factors. But each flyer values different qualities in his birds.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 8:28 AM
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gotspin7
2620 posts
Jan 01, 2010
8:46 AM
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Scott, I understand. LOL
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Salvador Ortiz
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Scott
2779 posts
Jan 01, 2010
9:27 AM
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Cliff .. make no mistake.. many of us will never purposely score that junk.. and that goes far beyond just myself and Kenny.. we won't step down our standard.
Be careful of what you wish for or you just might create a train wreak with huge impacts.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
594 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:13 AM
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Scott,
I am sure you don't mean to but your arrogance is showing partner when you start telling guys that they don't have enough experience to be involved in the conversation.
The rule says judge scores what he determines to be acceptable, end of story. Arguing with some of these guys is like wrestling with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 10:23 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2298 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:31 AM
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Scott
Eagle eyes, at 300 feet but I am guessing right over head? What about 600 feet over to the side? Are you still so sure you can be 100% correct with only one break scored, with your evaluation? I know you have to train yourself be look for hints if they are not right over head, but sometimes it is not possible to be right under the kit when they hit a break. Nothing wrong with being proud of your skills but to disregard an RD's opinion because of his time in the hobby, seems a tad on the arrogant side to me.
I bet you are a better judge today than you were 5 years ago. I bet most judges are trying to do their best and perfect their judging skills with each kit flown. The more I watch my kits the more I am able to slow down the speed and see better what they are doing. It is kinda like when batter can see the seams on the ball. It just comes with practice and concentration.
What I Suspect is many times before the kit is on the clock, a single bird will perform a deep spin right in your face. You have plenty of time to see what quality of spin is happening. It is human nature, once something is seen it goes into the minds eye and will color your judgment. Not good or bad just part of the big picture. Later after they warm up, time in, and at normal judging distances, they may look better or worse than what was first seen. Which is right? What you saw in your face or the Illusion created by distance and background and lots of birds performing? What I go back to is the rules, a judge is "ESTIMATING" numbers and "AVERAGING" Depth and Quality. That takes a lot of the "mystery" out judging for me.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2299 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:47 AM
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Scott
You give me far more credit than I deserve. I have no love for the axle wing roller, in fact I don't know anybody who does. But opinions are not and never should be fly rules. If there is a train wreck, there will be a 50% plus 1 majority of the RDs and board members, who favor one position over another, sitting in the first locomotive. That train will not even leave the station unless a majority of the NBRC flyers approve the way the train is run. I would suggest you enjoy the ride. A person more astute than I once said: " your are either part of the solution or part of the problem". I know, that many of the opinions voiced here, are seeking a solution. Where does that leave you?
Cliff
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