Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2443 posts
May 05, 2008
6:42 AM
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Hey All, Cliff submitted a very well written and in-depth article regarding James Turner and his effort toward developing the roller.
Thanks Cliff for taking the time to work on this article and offering here for publication. A good read!
Click Here To Read James Turner Article
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on May 05, 2008 6:43 AM
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flo
96 posts
May 05, 2008
7:19 AM
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Great article posted Tony...The article was impressive and as a newbie, it made me understand what the past arguements were all about; nevertheless, understanding the value of a "true" birmingham roller.
I have a question regarding this quote:
"Double factor Indigo birds and Andalusians were among the Carl Hardesty family of birds flown by Joe Roe in his World Cup winning kit in 1993. But, let’s look more closely at the method used by Turner to put color into that spin. Working together, at times, with Tony Roberts, over the years, Turner began to search out rollers that possessed genes for specific color modifiers; one at a time. The Brown and Barless gene came from a hen obtained from the Young Bird Roller Show held at Louisville, Kentucky.
The Reduced gene came from Ellis McDonald of Dover, Alabama, and Frank Dallas (which produced the better spinners, and so became the true source of the gene in the family). The Faded gene came from Larry Schlattmann of Kentucky. The Indigo/Andalusian gene came from Bob Bettis of Ohio. Most other color modifiers came from a breeder who was a master at pigeon genetics at the time, Dal Stone of Los Angeles, California. "
Question: Is it safe to ask that there was also other roller fancier who practiced this system of "color modifier" in the past/present?
Because when I was getting into rollers again and knew nothing of the "specifics" of a "true" birmingham roller, I can recall searching for rollers for sale and there was a bunch of "color rollers". Could they all have been traced back to the "Turner" strains or were they from other fanciers who also tried Turners "color modifier methods"?
Didn't want to stir the hornet's nest with these questions but any answer would be greatly appreciated.
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FLO
www.blacked-out-loft.webs.com
SAKTOWN, KALI4NIA
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Ballrollers
1187 posts
May 05, 2008
8:08 AM
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flo,
Keep in mind that grizzle was added through breed outcrosses around 1900, indgo and andalusian around 1930; and reduced was first found in rollers and believed to be a mutation, in 1936. (Does anyone have any iformation on Dominant Opal?)These are the only ones that I have in my birds so they are my primary interest.I do not have the information on Toy Stencil and Pencil, being less interested in them at this point. The problem is that little was known about the science of genetics at that time. But you can be sure that those modifiers were in a lot of roller families during the first half of the 20th century. Turner's genius was in his ability to select and breed for performance. His goal was to take these rollers that other had been working with, that already had the gene modifiers; and breed them for performance, mostly just to prove to himself that it could be done. He loved a challenge! Once this waas completed, and men began to see their performance at the popular and heavily-attended annual Backspin Flys, for the last three decades, his birds have been disseminated throughout the country....those that can perform, as well as those that could not, through the trickle down process, depending on the committment each particular roller man had to performance, much like the dessimination of 514 Pensom blood for decades; some that could perform, and some that could not, depending on the comittment of the fancier to performance. So just because you see a color bird....it may or may not be one of James Turner's family....and it may or may not perform, like every other family, depending on the committment to performance of the hobbyist who bred and flew it. Hope this helps, flo.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 05, 2008 8:11 AM
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MILO
970 posts
May 05, 2008
8:26 AM
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Nice read Cliff.
You know, I like your enthusiasm. It is an interesting look into history, but my good friend, the very verbage goes against my dedication to raising Birmingham Rollers. I don't want to insult you, or knock what seems to be a very well respected roller man in the Carolinas, because I know your intentions are good, but when I read:
“How did you go about adding color to spin?”
"incorporate a particular color modifier into the genetic makeup of the bird."
“In order to breed the best color roller"
It makes me scratch my head as to why one would put color first, or give any validity or credence to these practices. The very concept goes against the breed. I don't buy the balance of selection argument at all. I will however concede that if Turner was indeed successful in doing all the things you say in your text, then it is a MIRACULOUS FEAT.
Newbies BEWARE the words and practices listed here. Cliff, why don't you have a disclaimer like Fear Factor, like "Don't try this at home" so none of the newbies get hurt, or pollute the world with inferior birds.
Tony, if I am out of line here, just let me know and I will be more than happy to retract my statements.
Thanks again for the interesting read Cliff.
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2444 posts
May 05, 2008
9:32 AM
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Hey C, I don't think you are out of line by asking legitimate questions. As long as they are respectful and not badgering, I myself look forward to the additional insight that not only Cliff may provide, but any fanciers that have these rare color rollers in their lofts and can add to the discussion.
I ran across a very interesting and informative article by a Dr. Carmen Battaglia, he "...holds a Ph.D. and Masters Degree from Florida State University. He is an author of many articles and several books, an AKC judge, researcher, well known lecturer and leader in the promotion of breeding better dogs...".
Here is the article link to the article: Creating A New Breed
I think the insight offered up in his article should be interesting to many of us.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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luis
928 posts
May 05, 2008
11:49 AM
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Cliff,i will simply say thank you for taking the time,and all who contributed towards this well written article.I have saved it,and will read it anytime i need to remind myself of what can be accomplished when we go against the grain accompanied by knowledge,understanding,and perseverance!
I have come to the conclusion,that there will always be opposition on this topic regardless,due to the fact that both trains of thought carry considerable weight.
Last Edited by on May 05, 2008 12:20 PM
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Ballrollers
1188 posts
May 05, 2008
12:43 PM
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Milo
Sorry, my word usage did not strike your fancy, but you made a very valid point about a very old adage, " let the buyer beware". As I stated, just because it is a color bird, that color may have nothing to do with its performance. And conversely, just because of its pedigree, it may NOT insure the birds performance. There is no lead pipe cinches in this hobby, as I am sure you have learned. I would recommend that anyone in search of performance go see the birds before they get into any particular family. Not all families are performance based. There are great color show birds as there are great blue checks that win the lawn shows. The performance must be proven in the air.
The genetic breeding logic holds true for adding any factor to one's loft, whether it is adding spread or grizzle or if it is adding indigo or reduced. Each flyer can educate himself to the point he can use the genetic principals to add or delete any factor or color he chooses, within his loft, as is practiced regularly in lofts accross the country. For example, some guys don't care to let rr or grizzle "take over" their lofts. It is no different with these factors. Roller men have always bred for color to some extent...whites, baldheads, saddles, bellnecds, rr, grizzles, torts, selfs,,whatever strikes their fancy. It is no different with these factors and colors and they all come from other breeds.
As we have been told time and time again... Knowledge is power. Ignorance may be bliss but it may also may mask other things.
James Turner went to great lengths to unsure the birds that came from his loft would perform to standard. After 30 years, these birds, in the right hands, still meet the current definition and performance standards addressed by both major fly organizations.
I will bet you there are more men skinned by pedigree peddling than any other source of adding junk to the birds across the nation. Pedigrees of 514, pedigrees off this family or that family and none of the fly records are current for the last decade or two. Colors and or peds, mean very little if the bird lacks performance.
Just let the birds speak for themselves. Let the fly records tell you if a certain family has the goods.
Cliff
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Ty Coleman
253 posts
May 05, 2008
1:25 PM
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Cliff according to Wendell Levi's writings dominat opal has been around since 1929.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ballrollers
1189 posts
May 05, 2008
1:27 PM
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Milo
I will agree that James Turner has his critics and his skeptics, but what cannot be questioned is his service to the hobby and to the NBRC, organizing one of the biggest competitions east of the Misissippi (the Backspin), holding VP and presidential offices after being voted into those offices by the membership, and being voted into the HOF by previous HOF members. James Turner worked tirelessly to advance the hobby. True, some objected to his color additions, but for those who fly and compete with the Turner Family, the effort paid off, hugely.
Some will never accept the fact that color birds have earned the title of a performance Birmingham Roller. The roller is still evolving, size-wise, color-wise and yes even performance-wise.
Nothing stays the same but the stones on the mountains.
Cliff
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Scott
478 posts
May 05, 2008
2:38 PM
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Cliff, I think that it is worth noting that he pulled the NBRC through some rough political times also, up until he took office there was little or no accountabity on the budget.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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luis
934 posts
May 05, 2008
3:57 PM
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.....,and even they corrode and change,given enough time!
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katyroller
142 posts
May 05, 2008
7:37 PM
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Great article! I hope everyone reads it and takes away something positive.
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ezeedad
487 posts
May 05, 2008
8:28 PM
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Cliff,
Now I understand why I agree with practically everything you say about the rollers/color issue... I was wondering if Turner was still around and/or raising rollers... I came across this on another site...
"James got out of rollers, like most guys, out of frustration with hawks and pigeon politics. He dabbled in another breed for a year, but his love for rollers re-asserted itself and he got some of his breeders back from his good friend Tony Roberts. So he has a few rollers, but he just wants to enjoy them on his own, and be left alone for the most part, he says.
YITS,
Cliff"
It's unfortunate that some peoples attitudes can have a negative effect on a person like him...
Gomez
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Donny James
365 posts
May 05, 2008
8:56 PM
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hay tony very good article .........donny james
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glenn
112 posts
May 06, 2008
1:14 PM
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If I comment on this subject I will be ban from this fourm. So I am keeping my thoughts to my self except for this, to get the odd colors the birds were crossed with other breeds to get these odd colors.....Glenn
Odd Colors = colors that were not in the birds when they were imported into the U.S.
Last Edited by on May 06, 2008 10:05 PM
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luis
936 posts
May 06, 2008
3:35 PM
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"except to get the odd colors the birds were crossed.....Glenn"
Not sure i follow this!
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Bill from NJ
26 posts
May 06, 2008
5:31 PM
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Great job Cliff!!!
I wish you all the best!
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Velo99
1696 posts
May 06, 2008
8:16 PM
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The only observation I am going to make is this one? when Turner went around picking up these odd ball birds, what was their parentage?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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MILO
975 posts
May 06, 2008
8:23 PM
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Does it matter Kenny? LOL
c
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MILO
976 posts
May 06, 2008
8:30 PM
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Hey Glenn...If I haven't gotten banned by now, I think you will be ok...lol
Speak your mind man!
c
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ezeedad
490 posts
May 06, 2008
10:07 PM
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Milo,
I thought I remembered you getting booted off a few months ago... Or you said you were quitting... one or the other..
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luis
937 posts
May 07, 2008
12:19 AM
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You spin me round round baby round round like a record baby round round round round....LOL.Remember that 80s hit guys!That's how i feel right about now.
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smoke747
1046 posts
May 07, 2008
12:48 AM
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I like to ask a question or two. If the birds are crossed and still show good spinning qualities what harm is done?
Now if the birds are kept pure and are not performing up to standard, does that harm the breed? The only harm in crossing is, they can no longer be called Birmingham Rollers, only rollers and what name you give them.
Now which would you rather have, pure B.R.that don't roll or color birds that do?
smoke747----------
Keith London
ICRC
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Mount Airy Lofts
722 posts
May 07, 2008
2:00 AM
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Nice read! Many thanks for sharing that inside look into the life of James Turner. I admire the man even more after that reading. He is in a class of his own. I can only wish to be half the flier/breeder he is.
Color aside, his records speaks for itself. What can I say, he is one dedicated Roller man.
He has done a lot more then many of the guys who has brashed him.
Let's let the birds do the talking. Pedigrees mean nothing in the air!!
A pure bred follower,
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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Scott
481 posts
May 07, 2008
5:59 AM
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(Now which would you rather have, pure B.R.that don't roll or color birds that do?
smoke747---------- )
That is a easy one - Neither !
Honestly though I had to put on my Rose Colored bullshit filtering glasses to read that artical.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 6:09 AM
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Ballrollers
1192 posts
May 07, 2008
7:08 AM
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Scott
Truly spoken like a man who has never worked with the family of birds nor had a conversation with the man (Turner) LOL........ I also keep a pair of those bull shit filtering reading glasses handy. They seem to come in quite handy from time to time.......usually when I am trying to read one of your posts. What is it you are always saying? Oh Yeah, "You know my position on these color issues."
Cliff
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smoke747
1049 posts
May 07, 2008
7:45 AM
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OK, so it's like that. hmm interesting. So if you can't have pure BR, you wouldn't have any rollers? (Scott)
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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MILO
981 posts
May 07, 2008
8:36 AM
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LOL
Keith. It's easy math. He wants pure Birmingham Rollers that roll...LOL
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2446 posts
May 07, 2008
8:38 AM
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Personalities are getting involved, how about speaking to the facts and educating the rest of us?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
491 posts
May 07, 2008
9:06 AM
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Milo,
You're doing a GREAT JOB...!! AT ANNOYING ME..THAT IS..!!
LOL...Gotcha..!!
Really it's a free world so you can think or say whatever. It's not going to matter to me..
Gomez
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MILO
982 posts
May 07, 2008
9:11 AM
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Damn.
And I was trying so hard.
c
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ezeedad
492 posts
May 07, 2008
9:15 AM
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Keith,
Maybe we should call those birds Turner Rollers. Give the man his props...and not cause the "hard core purists" to get stressed about it...
But if anybody would ask me, I'd say that they're Birminghams.
Paul G
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MILO
983 posts
May 07, 2008
9:20 AM
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Well I guess it's official then. Paul says they are Birmingham Rollers. So I guess they are.
c
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ezeedad
493 posts
May 07, 2008
9:25 AM
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What a nice post milo... Thanks for giving me credit for having the ability to have an opinion...
But really, that's about the nicest I've seen you be.
So you really think there's a possibility of calling the Turners Birminghams..??
Gomez
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glenn
113 posts
May 07, 2008
9:39 AM
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Hello Paul:
Never
Glenn
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MILO
984 posts
May 07, 2008
9:55 AM
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Paul.
Don't get confused here. I'm not nice. I only posted that to let you hear what you wanted. You strike me as the kind of guy that wants to use a Phillips screwdriver on a Standard screw. Some discussions are hopeless when you have that kind of attitude. You will be right no matter what kind of facts are presented to you. I only post to help others, not to belittle them. When I get so detached and tired like Scott, then I will stop posting. (Moderated)
c
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 7:25 PM
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MILO
985 posts
May 07, 2008
9:58 AM
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Sure George.
You can keep the BOP's from eating my birds. I would love to fly against anyone, including, and especially you George, when my program allows. (Moderated)
c
Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 7:24 PM
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George R.
624 posts
May 07, 2008
9:58 AM
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The only way to settle this is a Flyoff...
Pual can be a Captain of 1 team and Milo the other ( both Captains must fly).
Each can assemble a team of 5 flyers with Pauls consisting of odd Colors ( milky, toy stencil, qualmond,and whatever oddity,s he likes.
Milo team must consist of purist blood ( old pensoms, reed, higgins, or whatever pure blood he likes.
What do you guys think ?
I will help out anyway I can
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MILO
986 posts
May 07, 2008
10:00 AM
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George...before I walk out the door to work.
Define "purist"
I'd like to hear it from you. Oh, and heres a hint. It has nothing to do with pedigrees.
c
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George R.
625 posts
May 07, 2008
10:00 AM
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C whats so macho about opening a kit door ? also you would have to get in line to flyoff against me LOL I am getting challenges from all over..
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George R.
626 posts
May 07, 2008
10:03 AM
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I dont know what a purist is I just used it because thats what others seem to believe a person who likes real birminghams should be called.
C by no means do I label anyone or call people names , so dont take it that way.
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MILO
987 posts
May 07, 2008
10:03 AM
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Ya, and I think they are silly. Can't you stand up for yourself? I've been following the attacks on you. Flying is great, but you have to be able to communicate. I'm not afraid of flying. Ask anyone that has competed against me.
c
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MILO
988 posts
May 07, 2008
10:04 AM
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I was just curious.
c
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luis
938 posts
May 07, 2008
10:19 AM
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Milo writes...
"I only post to help others,not to belittle them".
he also writes....
"You strike me as the kind of guy that wants to use a Phillips screwdriver on a Standard screw".
Hey Milo do you have multiple personalities,or did one person write these comments?
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luis
939 posts
May 07, 2008
10:27 AM
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By the way,we can also say......The purists say they are not Birmingham Rollers,so i guess they are not!LOL.
It is easier to row against the tide,than to open the minds of stubborn men.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 11:27 AM
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maxspin
231 posts
May 07, 2008
11:20 AM
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Call them what ever you want. If one wanted to get a start with a competative family of birds there are some guys flying Turners that would be a good place to start.
Keith Maxwell
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MILO
989 posts
May 07, 2008
11:28 AM
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George.
I have had a change of heart. I will fly against Paul and Luis this Summer.
Set it up. You can't be any more "in-your-face" than that. I am sure they will be ready by then.
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2447 posts
May 07, 2008
11:53 AM
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Hey Luis, you seem really good poking at people, so here is a poke back at you:
Why don't you provide the logic for your position in your own words, on why the "rare" color roller is a birmingham roller.
Do so in a way that is persuasive and your best effort at expressing your position if you can.
Don't state why you think the "purists" are incorrect. I want to hear YOUR reasons for having this position in the first place.
Also, how do you incorporate this knowledge into your family of rollers and in what ways does incorporating it, improve your birds from year to year?
If you got something to teach me personally, I am listening...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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luis
943 posts
May 07, 2008
12:20 PM
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Hell, my program and my birds are no where near where i want them to be.Never flown comp before,but shit....this looks like a fun place to start!
I"M DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps:Tony as far as poking goes,i wouldn't talk if i was you.You should look at some of your posts!
Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 12:22 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2448 posts
May 07, 2008
12:42 PM
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Luis, the difference between you and me is that this is my site. I LIVE here! I actually have something to say.
You just visit.
Now stop YOUR poking or you will be booted for insolence. Get it!?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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