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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
James Turner: The Man - The Rollers - The Color
James Turner: The Man - The Rollers - The Color
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Scott
529 posts
May 11, 2008
2:32 PM
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Cliff, JoeBob told me if he had it to do over again he would have tried to build it within the S. Carolina birds.
Funny how we can look back with the shoulda coulda's ,I do the same LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1220 posts
May 11, 2008
7:30 PM
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Scott
He has told me the same thing...that he wished he had selected from withn the South Carolina birds instead of going outside the family...funny...I never shared that with you because I didn't think that you would believe it anyway! LOL! Jay came over today and we flew some birds and handled a few and went over what birds of his that he gave me had produced my competition kit. He said something similar...that he has raised a few birds from several families yet he has not seen anything that rivals the speed and quality of the indigo and andalusians. Then he added something that you will love.....he said that the only cross he has seen that kicked the velocity up to another level was crossing the Andys to an old family of Pensoms!!
(He didn't do it, but another flyer in the area did, and Jay saw the birds.) Anybody know where I can get a couple?! LOL! LOL!
The point is....I can't think of a single family of rollers that is doing well today that wasn't built on the back of another successful family. That is often the case. You take what you are given, or buy, and move forward, much of your success or failure revolved around the birds you start with. I have not encountered the stability issues that you and Paul had. My comp kit is 1/3 '05 birds and 1/3 '06 birds and 1/3 '07 birds. The older birds just don't bump like the reckless young birds. If they survive the first 12-18 months they are stable. Did you see if Randy Gibson could help you? It could be just the birds you started with, it could be lots of things. But I will not deny the Turner birds did not agree with you. And I have never stated otherwise. One more time: Not all families will work for all flyers, You must find what works for you. Some of the problems are caused by too little available time to work the birds due to job or family. Poor loft management, feed, water, geopraphic location, BOPS, etc. The varibles are endless. I have seen good men who could not keep pigeons alive for any length of time, much less raise a good performance kit.
Both you and Paul have found birds that respond favorably to your management style, as I have. It seems to be the normal course of events for men to try different families before they find one right for them.
I bet you that just because you and Paul are satisfied with your birds, guys could take birds from you and NOT ALL would be sucessfull. That is just the nature of the beast. I see no need to place blame on the family one gets birds from. A quick "in the mirror" will sometimes show who may be a fault. And, friends, I get damn tired of bending over to look in the mirror and can see only me to blame.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 11, 2008 7:34 PM
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Scott
532 posts
May 11, 2008
10:37 PM
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...(that he has raised a few birds from several families yet he has not seen anything that rivals the speed and quality of the indigo and andalusians. Then he added something that you will love.....he said that the only cross he has seen that kicked the velocity up to another level was crossing the Andys to an old family of Pensoms!!)
As for the speed I think that is probaby due to comparing mainly to Jacanetts,my best are as fast as I have seen any where (my "best" being the key word here as I certainly breed my fair share of garbage also).
If you want I will sent you a few birds this Fall, the good ones will roll no matter what, once they start maturing though they could be a problem flying fast with the way you feed your birds, but then if the kit is flying slow they should follow suit as kitting is a very strong point with my birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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MILO
1006 posts
May 11, 2008
10:45 PM
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Awwww.
Aint that sweet of you Scott. Well, one thing is for sure, the Turners will put the roll back into them.
c
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Scott
535 posts
May 11, 2008
10:51 PM
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(Aint that sweet of you Scott. Well, one thing is for sure, the Turners will put the roll back into them.)
If the roll had left them I would be trying to pinch birds from Cliff LOL.
I find roll to be a funny thing,if you breed out of birds that are full of roll it keeps coming, if you breed out of birds because of what is behind them you loose it real fast and or end up with other problems associated with the roll.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 11, 2008 10:55 PM
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Ballrollers
1221 posts
May 12, 2008
7:03 AM
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Tony
So you think the DNA is the way to go? I looked into it a few years ago. Dave Kowalski mentioned it in his book, but, when we discussed it, he felt that the technology wasn't there yet......to expensive and most people are just not interested in the genome of the Birmingham Roller to spend the money to develope it! LOL! Imagine that...
I don't know, but I could make a fine argument in favor of adopting the "TRUE VS PURE" nomenclature. We already have the "True" definition being found in the books and NBRC text to lead us in the direction of performance based, regardless of color. The "Pure" definition would, obviously, agree with much of the rhetoric that surounds the color controversy today from the perspective of the purist. As has been stated previously.....can't have your cake and eat it to. What better way to define the percieved differencies, than to define the 2 distinct opinions that we hear most often, with TRUE OR PURE? If we use "TRUE", as it seems to be already understood as a "performing Birmingham Roller", then we could educate the flyers to the "PURE" meaning, and that being a Birmingham Roller Pure of blood and WITHOUT certain color modifiers. And we could just not even mention anything about performance. Whatever!
This sure would be a lot cheaper in the long run, Tony, because I think we would want each and every bird tested; probably with an unanounced visit from the DNA police. Would the NBRC/WC or the flyer, have to compensate the DNA testing service if someone turned a flyer in? Got any estimates yet?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1222 posts
May 12, 2008
7:15 AM
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Scott
Thanks for the generous offer. I'd like to take you up on that sometime, but right now I have more on my plate than I can handle. But you are right about the Jacs, they have a good reputation for producing quality spinners and can be found in the background of many successful families. Personally, I have found them to be much slower, as a rule, then what I see in my Indigo and Andys; and, of course, there are exceptions to that...the main thing they have going for them as I have seen, is their slow flight and wingbeat. When do you fly your WC finals?
Cliff
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ezeedad
510 posts
May 12, 2008
10:27 AM
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Tony, Cliff,
As far as I know the pigeon genome hsan't been decoded yet. I just looked it up a couple of months ago. But even if it was, I believe it would be next to impossible to use it to determine if a bird was a pure Birmingham or not.
First you would have to do extensive testing to determine if there was some distinctive marker, or set of markers that would show only in the one breed and not in others. So a bird which was crossed with birmingham roller could also carry the marker(s).
Second, such markers, or mutations probably don't exist in the first place.
P Gomez
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Ballrollers
1224 posts
May 12, 2008
6:19 PM
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Paul,
Aw Shucks! Another great idea, just short on technology. Thanks for the information. That is pretty much how my discussion with Kowalski went a couple years ago. I guess we will just have to keep doing what we are doing, for now.
I guess I'll have to refer to the birds I raise as TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS just like WHP and the NBRC suggest. LOL!
Think about this: Maybe the reason WHP came up with "TRUE" Birmingham Roller term was to separate the BR's from the tumblers and other breeds that they were made from or because he, too, realized taht there was nothing "pure" about them. I still think , WHP encouraged flyers to only use the name Birmingham Roller to describe a bird with exceptional performance. It wouldn't made any difference to him if the bird came from Birmingham or not. It is hisoical fact taht he pinched birds from all over if they could perform correctly. If WHP had only named performance rollers something other than a geographic location, look at the ink we could save for other more relavent topics. Something that would better describe the birds performance.....Deep Ball Rollers sounds good but it doesn't quite have the right ring to it. Fire balls are already taken, Blur Balls sounds interesting. Deep Blur Balls, DBB for short, is descriptive but still not what I am looking for.....
Back to the drawing board......
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 12, 2008 6:22 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2488 posts
May 13, 2008
8:22 AM
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Nick came up with "Deep Blue" for the Ruby Rollers Blue Series birds, I wonder what brown Ruby Rollers would look like. I hope I get some soon.
Can any of the color breeders tell me how I can get the brown to come out of the birds, I understand Brown is supposed to be in rollers.
I haven't seen any yet, I don't think. Anyone got any pictures of brown rollers so I can compare? Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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flo
111 posts
May 13, 2008
8:27 AM
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Hey Tony,
This is an old video of my old birds 1 year ago. There is a "Brown" one that was moving all the time in the cage. I think this is what you call brown or chocolate. It is all brown and you can't miss it at all. It is a Jac cross with a plona.
I cannot help you with how to get it with your family of Ruby's though and I will leave that question to teh "Color" experts. YOu asked for a pix so I tried my best to provide a video.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2491 posts
May 13, 2008
8:36 AM
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Hey Flo, so THAT is brown. Good video. I think I have seen that color before, glad my birds are rollers after all. Course I never compared what I have seen on a color chart or anything, so I can't be real sure.
Is brown dominant over Ash Red and Blue? Thanks for the help!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
513 posts
May 13, 2008
9:01 AM
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Cliff,
You said: "Maybe the reason WHP came up with "TRUE" Birmingham Roller term was to separate the BR's from the tumblers and other breeds that they were made from or because he, too, realized taht there was nothing "pure" about them. I still think , WHP encouraged flyers to only use the name Birmingham Roller to describe a bird with exceptional performance. It wouldn't made any difference to him if the bird came from Birmingham or not. It is hisoical fact taht he pinched birds from all over if they could perform correctly."
I couldn't agree more..!!
Gomez
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