Velo99
1718 posts
May 10, 2008
7:56 AM
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Thanks Dave,
Thats good information.
I was thinking the other day,if a guy was to write each color, modifer and or factor on a slip of paper ie... blue bar wf with sooty and put each one in a hat shake em up and pick one,it would be just a matter of time before he gets it,provided he has the three basic color groups.
V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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fhtfire
1329 posts
May 10, 2008
9:12 AM
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Ty,
Just want you to know that I did not starve them down...I do not believe in that....I am the opposite..I keep my birds Healthy before a fly...and they only get reduced rations the day before to keep them low enough to judge and slow the wing beat down.....I am just letting you know that I did not starve them to get them hot..LOL....The process that I used to pick my family took about 2 years of trial and error...of flying families together...seprate...different feeding...and on and on.....and when i tested a theory with feed of flying..it was a min of 2 weeks on a certain food..or 2 weeks flying together..
As far as pure Turners...I know what Scott is getting at....he is not trying to trick you...he is trying to prove a point that if they are not 100% pure..then the other family may be holding the birds together.....witch is not uncommon with any strain or families that are mixed...I mean if a bird is half Turner and Half Higgins..well..the bird is no longer Turner or Higgins.....if it is 1/4 Turner..it is no longer a Turner....That is what he is trying to get at...
For example...my Ruby' that are pure are just as Tony sent them to me..and the only differnece is that I may have picked a differet bird for stock that he may have...but the blood is pure...the second that I cross them with my Mort birds...they are now my birds and no longer Ruby Roller or Morts....I have a bird that is 3/4 Ruby and 1/4 mort...I do not say it is a Ruby Roller....or a Mort...I say that it is a Flashover strain bred by Paul Fullerton...LOL....basically..my strain is called Flashover...and anything that is crossed is my strain..period....so what Scott is getting at is ....our yours from Turner...and only bred with Turners....then you can say they are Turners....make sense....so you may have Turner blood (I dont know)...hope I am making sense.....I think what Scott is getting at is that he is talking about the pures...the reeses birds..you know..mixing the Chocolate with the Peanut butter.....those are the hot ones....my Turners were PURE...if I told you who I got them from you would know that they are pure....but anyway...the second you cross a family you really change the dynamics of the offspring.
I crossed my Rubys and Morts..to get more power or strength in the bird to be able to not run out of gas...one strain was a little faster and one was a little deeper....Quality was about the same...so I mixed to get the best of both worlds....one would say the Morts are holding up the Rubys and one would say the Rubys are holding up the Morts....I say they are crossed and giving me the best traits of both strains..you know the cup is half full or half empty....so....if they are pure....and you have never put the birds on another strain and they are right from Turner himself or you know they are from Turner 100%, and they are not from his color project...you may be talking about different birds then what scott is talking about;.....I have talked to guys that fly the pure 100% color bred Turners and they all say they are hot..and need to be flown a lot and fed up......and do not hold up over time..just like what i have found...but then there are others that love the Turners..but these guys got the birds or the strain before the color input..or they are not 100% pure Turner..other families have been put in....anyway...Scott I think is just trying to clarify if you guys are on the same page...I kind of want to know too...
Nobody is saying that all Turner birds suck....that is not true at all....to be honest it is 20% birds and 80% fancier...I know breeders that could mess up a W#$% dream.....and lots of branches off of original strain tree...can show totally different traits...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 9:16 AM
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Electric-man
1568 posts
May 10, 2008
9:36 AM
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I know breeders that could mess up a W#$% dream
Your referring to me, aren't you! LOL----------
Val
"Site Moderator"
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Phantom1
212 posts
May 10, 2008
10:21 AM
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Scott,
Is it possible for you to introduce any other color in you family that would it easier for you to ID birds in the air? Ash Red, Spread, etc? I know you don't care for white flights. Just a thought....might give you some options later on. If you got some Ash Red hens in, you'd have a butt load of sex-linked matings and you'd know what they were before you ever flew them.
Trying to help...
Eric
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Scott
506 posts
May 10, 2008
11:14 AM
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Eric, trust me I have kicked it around , it truely is a real pain,no joke.
And if you look in Kennys loft you will more variaty than my own,the problem is my stud just keeps inching forward as far as percentages of good ones with a very tight gene pool,inching forward on a whole is very difficult and time consuming, I think in years as far as my family on a whole not just season to season like I once did.
Plus I run a pretty tight operation, meaning I breed out of limited pairs and I am not into breeding 100 plus youngsters any more, so I am very careful not to breed just to breed.
In short I don't want to add anything else in just for more variaty and then have to start a whole new line and start working it in order to make it work it would take more perch space and more time of which I don't want to give.
Eric, there was a time that I had RR mottles, ash reds, red checkers ect. but I also had a much wider gene pool, once I started finding and honing around my best producers that also gave me decent producers all of that got weeded out, not due to the color,but because my few key birds don't throw it, if one of those key birds just happened to be a red check it would be a different story.
I will tell you that I have gotten pretty good at IDing birds by different shades,secondaries ect.but it is still a real pain.
I have just came the conclusion that what I get is the charatoristics of my family due to following the best.
There are some real pluses also though running a tight gene pool such as the little mind games and wishful thinking of pretty markings,peds, who the parents are ect. don't play into potential stock what so-ever due to they are all the same every which way for the most part.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 11:16 AM
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Phantom1
213 posts
May 10, 2008
2:57 PM
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Sounds like you've got a tight ship and one that you've got a firm grip on. A lot of work and observation with the "hands at the wheel". It's a tough job, but someones gotta do it right?
If there's anything I can do to help you in the future, let me know. I'm not much in the Roller World, but I'm here to help you and anyone else. Hope you know that.
Eric
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fhtfire
1331 posts
May 10, 2008
4:25 PM
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Scott,
I like your line about Ped, color ect..not playing a roll inot what you pick for stock. I do kind of the same thing...I do not look at the band numbers at all when I am picking my birds for stock....either they do it or they do not...if I look at the band and see that it is not from one of my "better" producing pairs...it may sway me just for that reason...you know..at a week moment..LOL..anyway...I kind od do the same thing.
DAVID--
You said that you were taught back in 62 that if it rolled like a birmingham then it is....that is totally false man..the blood makes the brimingham roller not the roll....I had posted before that I used to have a plain old tumbler that would roll like any Birmingham...but no matter how much I stared at it...and looked at it...it was still a tumbler...so you are telling me that because this tumbler rolled like a BR...then it is.....no way......I have a couple of stiff that do not roll hardly at all...and no matter what..they are a birmingham roller do to the blood...do they meet the "standard" (for breeding) NO..but it is still a Birmingham....I hope you get my point..you can't have your cake and eat it too..LOL!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
If I sound harsh..forgive me...LOL...just got off the phone with my ex-wife..LOL...thats ok...I just told her that I was adding three more Kit boxes to MY backyard...(her old backyard) LOLL
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1208 posts
May 10, 2008
6:05 PM
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Paul.Do a little research and what Pensom wrote.Don't take my word for it.
He said no other performing pigeon could roll like a TRUE Birmingham Roller.He also said that anything that was a stiff or only tumbled could not be called a TRUE Birmingham Roller.
He should know what he was talking about.
So how sure are you that the one you had that rolled like a BR was actually a Tumbler? Apparently it was a BR.LOL.
I don't know how else to explain it to you.David
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fhtfire
1333 posts
May 10, 2008
6:21 PM
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David,
The word TRUE birmingham roller is just a way that he is saying that it meets the standard...Like when my Lab sits by the blind with patience....I hit the ducks...it jumps...hits the water...gets the duck...brings it back....and my buddy will say..that is a TRUE lab...meaning it does it like it is supposed to....now if it sat there...and did nothing....he would say that is not a TRUE lab...meaning it may be a lab...but it does not act like one...True is just a way that he explained what a Birmingham should be to meet the standard and called a true Brimingham...Blood is the only way a Birmingham can be called a birmingham..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1209 posts
May 10, 2008
6:40 PM
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Paul.Go back 100 years and find any written articles or letters about the History of the Birmingham Roller and find me one that says anything about a PURE Birmingham Roller.
You won't find any so don't waste your time.But if you do please share them and I may change my mind.LOL
All you will find is them being called TRUE Birmingham Rollers because they are the only pigeons that can perform such a feat.I didn't write the History of them so if you want to put your spin on what the writers meant by what they said you go ahead but I think that that is why the NBRC uses TRUE in their bylaws.Never have I seen PURE in their bylaws.They are the Largest club in the world so I will follow their rules. If they are wrong so am I.David
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Scott
513 posts
May 10, 2008
7:07 PM
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Sheez Dave ,did you bump your head ? Dave, you enjoy color breeding and you sell the crap out of them to guys that don't know any better or don't care like most color breeders do, you can keep justifing what you are selling until the cows come home, but they are what they are,it is really that simple.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 7:10 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1210 posts
May 10, 2008
7:20 PM
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Scott.I can guarantee you that weither I sold or gave them away that I have made more happy roller flyers than you ever will.People want to see Quality rolling and lots of it.That is what I breed and fly.That is what I sell or give to many starting in the hobby.I probably give away more rollers per year than you raise.
I am not afraid to put my rollers out there for folks to try or to put them in the air for folks to see.
You can try all the BS you want to but the reality is that the so called color birds are here to stay.
Back up your theory with written proof like I have.Then we will talk. David
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fhtfire
1334 posts
May 10, 2008
7:20 PM
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Is a dalmation with spots a True Dalmation...yes it is..it is the only breed that has spots and looks like that...True is the style of writing of the time too. You do not have to go back 100 years to know what a purebred is or a pure birmingham..that is common sense.
True is just a figure of speech... Look at the definition below...True Means STANDARD....Conforming to a standard or measure...Pure Breed is talking about ancestory....breeding within the breed only......Standard is a form or measurement to make sure that you breed only the best..or..like it says below...Breed TRUE!!!
Again..standard is second fiddle to Breed.....The standard is nothing but a measurement to help us pick the best birds to breed from to keep the breed going..straight and TRUE......to be a breed you have to be pure...I posted it all way back in the threads....again...True is used like we use standard in this day and age...The standard does NOT set the breed....the blood sets the breed. If I cross a lab and a pincher..and the F1 looks like a lab and meets the standard..is it a lab...NOPE..it is a crossbreed....is a true lab...NOPE....
true [ troo ]
adjective (comparative tru·er, superlative tru·est)
Definition:
genuine: genuine, not pretended, insincere, or artificial
conforming to standard or measure: conforming to a standard, measure, or pattern
a true fit
conforming to inclusion criteria: meeting the criteria for inclusion in a particular category, in contrast to being given the same name because of superficial resemblance to members of that category
A shooting star is not a true star.
agriculture without loss of ancestral features: without variation from the ancestral form, or producing offspring with the same hereditary characteristics
breed true
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1211 posts
May 10, 2008
7:29 PM
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Paul.Are you saying that NBRC is in violation of their rules and regulations?
You also said:
You do not have to go back 100 years to know what a purebred is or a pure birmingham..that is common sense.
Show me written proof about the Birmingham Roller.Let the dogs,goats,horses and cows out of it.Just the BR.Then we will talk about it. David
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 7:34 PM
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Ballrollers
1205 posts
May 10, 2008
7:29 PM
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Kenny,
While I appreciate you committment to move this discussion forward, the problem we have is that we are dealing with opininon, recall, and very litle recorded factual information,primarily, and over a large number of years. It does litle good for a few men on an internet list to render an opinion as to what colors are true.
As I have discussed before, many these historical discriptions of colors were not written by men who had the scientific and genetic knowledge that we have today. A knowledgeable, genetic, wise person would refer to dilute before saying yellow. And Barless? When did barless enter the picture?
Without the proper records, we cannot be absolutly sure if all the factors and colors listed were all that there was. Yes, this helps to educate us as to many of the colors and patterns contained in some of the breeds that went into the early development of the roller. Many of the resessive colors/factors go unnoticed for generations. Then we have the naturally occuring mutations?
Many of these colors/factors are in todays BR... Yes!
Cliff
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fhtfire
1335 posts
May 10, 2008
7:46 PM
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Here..this was part of the definition...for True
15. Animal Husbandry. purebred
See..true means purebred...s measurement or standard for a purebred....and what does purebred mean..------..1. of or pertaining to an animal, all of whose ancestors derive over many generations from a recognized breed.
Breed-Genetics. a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans. lineage; stock; strain
Half-Breed-having only one purebred parent
See...it all works hand and hand....True is a measurment of a standard for a PUREBRED....a purebred is all of whose acestors derive over many generations from a recognized breed (birmingham roller)...a breed is a homogenous group of animals within a species...developed and maintained by humans...ok..the species is Pigeons..the homogenous group is the Birmingham roller...homogenous means Unmixed, Alike, similar, identical bloodlines....and a halbreed is having only one purebred parent...then you can go back up to only ONE purebred parent..then you can start at true again..LOL...then you can have a cross breed...a crossing of animals or plants; a mixing of breeds...what is breeds..identical bloodlines...unmixed... if you cross with another breed within a species like Archangel to Birmingham roller...you have a mongrel...which is any animal or plant resulting from the crossing of different breeds or varieties
then you go back to breed...see they all work hand in hand..all true is a slang term used in the old days for a Measurement or a standard...of a PURE BREED>..it is all in the dictionary...now I found the writing to back it up....old Webster..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
514 posts
May 10, 2008
7:51 PM
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(People want to see Quality rolling and lots of it.)
Well Dave you should be on top of the world then as I find breeding "lots of quality roll" very difficult to breed, glad you have been able to master it as I have not.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
515 posts
May 10, 2008
7:53 PM
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(Without the proper records, we cannot be absolutly sure if all the factors and colors listed were all that there was. Yes, this helps to educate us as to many of the colors and patterns contained in some of the breeds that went into the early development of the roller. Many of the resessive colors/factors go unnoticed for generations. Then we have the naturally occuring mutations?
Many of these colors/factors are in todays BR... Yes!
Cliff )
One thing that we are sure of is the cross breeding for those colors and the breeders that have done such,it is far from a secret
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1206 posts
May 10, 2008
8:02 PM
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EZ
Any ideas why the English call our birds "American Rollers"? By The way...I agree with you grandfather...
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1207 posts
May 10, 2008
8:06 PM
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Nick
Yes, There is a difference between a BR and a crossed BR. The "crossed Birmingham roller" includes all the colors and factors included in the "traditional" BR, plus several other color factors. There are you happy? Probably not! LOL!But that is the main difference from where I stand on this issue. Glad you brought it up.
Now what I believe you are referring to, is the fact not all roller families are performance based. It makes no difference about colors, it is about performance.
If a guy wants performance above all other, he has a choice of many good families and he has a choice of colors and color modifiers included in with the performance.
Even if there were no other BR on the face of the EARTH but blue ck self's and all were defined as BR's, we would still be up against the same problem, with birds/families which did not meet the performance standards. Not all men wish to compete, they just like the looks of the bird on the perch. And in today's open sky's the advantage goes to the BOPS. In certain areas, men can no longer compete in the time frame available because of the BOP migrations. That problem will continue to worsen.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1336 posts
May 10, 2008
8:11 PM
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David,
YES the NBRC is not following there own rules and regulations....if they really break down what they want to move the BREED forward....and that concerns me.
Cliff and Dave...we all know that the Birmingham roller pigeon was a poor mans racing pigeon....most poor folk back in the day were Unedumicatumed....(uneducated)..they worked there asses off for the educated rich folk then went to the pub..got all f-up and had comps with the Poormans pigeon...so you think they really kept a lot of writing and peds...most did not know how to write or have the time to spend keeping track of pedigrees and the definition of a purebred...Now the rich folk had Racing pigeons and champion horses and hunting dogs and the rich folk were educated and kept track of the pedigrees etc etc....the British back in the day REALLY put a big light on Pedigrees..hell the royal families of NOBLE blood kept pedigree on themselves..LOL...the poor folk could care less from where they came from or where ther birds came from...the lived in the hear and now...making it by the skin of there teeth...they had no time to talk about how great there pedigrees were.....but the rich would jerk themselves off over having a champion arabian or a the best racing pigeon.....and they would brag of the pedigrees...the old black country guys..through down a stein of ale and talked about his old Blue Bar Cock kicking the shit our of his buddies Red Check in a rolling competition....hey where did that bird come from ...from the clan Mcloud and before that ...yeah right...he would say Hell I don't know...I won the f-ing bird by the skin of my arse from old willie...well where did he get it...hell if I know...well ask him...well I can't he died from the plauge last year....so his ped on this champion roller would say GUT BIRD FrM oLE WILLIE..Get my point...you can find writings a mile long on Homers and what came from what....and other breeds like dogs, horses and goats...why...becuase the RICH HAD THEM ..and peds would get there rocks off...kind of like the rich in this day and age..I have one of 200 lamborghinis in the world and I have this vitage car that was documented to be owned by blah blah blah...and the poor folk...in this day and age are buying colored rollers.....lol..kidding...even in this recent time but only a few kept peds and records in this day and age..that is why we all get excited when we can trace one bird out of thousands back to old 514..get my point....there are no writing because it was a poor mans sport....much like it is today....shit..could you imagine what it would cost to have a stable full of kick ass racing pigeons....food and gas alone for training would bury my ass....If I paid 2,000.00 for a damn racing pigeon or 50,000.00 for a horse..I better have a piece of paper telling me it is pure...so I can keep from putting a gun in my mouth for spending so much for nothing...would you keep track of a pedigree for something that you payed for with a bag of feed...LOL...neither would the old timers...so...get off the show me in writing.....the fact is....a cross is a cross...a purebred is a pure bred.....the birmingham roller is a BREED of pigeon..to be a breed you have to be PURE....we have a STANDARD to meet the expectaions of the BREED...so we can keep the BREED moving forward.....You CROSS and you have a mongral...if you followed the dam standard in the first place...an archangel would NEVER BE BRED TO A BRIMINGham in the first place...because I GUARANTEE that a bird used to get lace toy whatever did not meet the standard of a Birmingham or was not a TRUE brimingham and should never had been bred in the first place...only TRUE Birminghams should be bred...so....I am tired of beating my head against a wall....yes I know some birds mutate and carry a Brown or whatever..but WE ALL KNOW what birds don't fit the bill...So...you will not see writings....and again..something that meets the standard does not mean it is of that breed..only the blood makes the breed...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
1003 posts
May 10, 2008
8:13 PM
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Cliff.
Did it ever occur to you that the Brits are as uninterested in the American history of the Birmingham Roller as it has progressed here, as we are to the progression of the breed in Britain? Of course they don't care, as I don't care bout what goes on there.
They think the name itself is silly, and it kind of is. But that is the breed name. Too late to change it now. Funny how everyone wants the title so badly here.
c
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fhtfire
1337 posts
May 10, 2008
8:14 PM
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I will tell you why they called our birds AMERICAN rollers..because they are bitter because we ran there asses out of America....and nothing British was going to be called so from the American mongrel country..LOL..that is why..go to Britian...I have been called a damn Yankee...why...even though we saved there asses from speaking German...Americans are still not like..because we are not a British colony...that is why Cliff..they hated Pensom...and it was a country thing...
Chan Grover who was in the war with Pensom..said that he really buddied up to the Americans...because they had all the cool stuff...like chocolate and cigars..so the other british soldiers most likely did not like him when he was smoking a nice cigar he got from Chan Grover and rubbing elbows with the rich Americans...and then brought the pride and joy of the Black Country to the underserving americans...something else they can take from the mother country...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 8:19 PM
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Ballrollers
1208 posts
May 10, 2008
8:17 PM
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Scott,
You asked about James Turner winning major flys.... Hmmmmmm....James Turner was not successful in any major fly's. True, but many of the men who competes with the Turner family do quite well. And he was very active in competitn and winning in local and regional flys in an era when the NBRC Fall Fly and the WC were either non-existant, and in their infancey.
And how many major fly's did WHP win? Well, there were no major fly's way back then either.... But then did he compete, and if he did compete did he win?
We have several great breeders that don't care for competition enough to give it a real try. Does that lessen their birds accomplishments? Aren't you proud as a new papa when one of your birds does well in another loft?
When men wager in a private fly , the man who wins has earned braggin, rights. Does it mean he flew BR or mongrels? Hmmmmm?
Cliff
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fhtfire
1338 posts
May 10, 2008
8:20 PM
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Cliff read my last post....want to hear your thoughts..I respect your thoughts and you are a smart man...check it out
rock and ROLL
Paul
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katyroller
167 posts
May 10, 2008
8:21 PM
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If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and flys like a duck...it's a d@#$ duck! If you take a BR and paint it red, green and blue...it's a red, green and blue painted BR roller. Color does not change anything. I have yet to see you guys show proof that ALL these so called "color" or rare or mongrel or whatever you want to call them birds, are mixed with something other than roller blood. If you are so fired up sure that all these birds are crossbred, list the color and what breeds were used to produce the color. Remember the law says if you are accused of a crime, you are innocent until proven guilty. Try extending that philosophy to the birds for a change.
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Ballrollers
1211 posts
May 10, 2008
9:15 PM
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David
Hey, there's a twist for ya! A "PURE" BR has to a certain color. Pedigrees back to Fred and Wilma......may or may not perform to standard.
A "TRUE" BR has to earn the title in the air and can be any color. Tony ... No need for DNA testing! We can save money to buy supplies from RPDC! LOL!
I think I can support this terminology. But then, I am sure some will have " slightly" differeing opinions.
NIck, Hold on with that survey. I think the problem has been solved! Group hug!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1212 posts
May 10, 2008
9:29 PM
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Guys
While Scott and a few others do not like the Turner family, I don't think everybody likes all families. Scott has a rather low opinion of James Turner to start with; makes perfect sense that Scott would not perfer the Turner Family.
Not all men fly this family or that family. There are many many good families to chose from. I have respect for James Turner, many men in the Carolina's, fly families that contain Turner birds. These men, as well as James himself, guided me in how to fly, train and breed these biirds. I know Scott has first hand experience with other families along the way, he chose his current family above the others, just as I have done. In my experience, very often, the differencies in the families , requires different handling. I mean, NOT ALL FAMILIES RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE SAME HANDLING. And it is impossible to properly evaluate a family of birds by breeding and flying a pair or two. We cannot always duplicate the results. This is more a reflection on ourselves and our abilities than the family of birds we denigrate.
If you live close to a man who developed his own family, go see his birds , learn how he handles and tweaks his birds, ask him your questions.....Then decide if you want to fly his family. Don't go buy his birds, fly them into the ground , and proclaim they are trash.... without going to the source FIRST.....without making a real committment to the family first...any family of rollers.....
Just a suggestion.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1213 posts
May 10, 2008
9:41 PM
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Guys
When I hear flyers like Scott and Paul say the birds become "UNSTABLE" in the first or second flying season, The first thing I suspect is the molt. How many of our birds experience difficulties during the molt? I know my birds do and if not handled correctly, they will drill holes in the ground. From what I understand, this delicate condition, effects all families to one extent or another. I know men who pull all the primaries and lock their birds down during the summer molt so their kits will be in better condition for the fall flying season. BUT... it also avoids the problems associated with flying birds that are in the molt. This is often the case with our rollers regardless of family.
The second thing I suspect is the feed can. This family needs plenty of protein to handle the propensity to roll. They need strength to contol it. Break them down with milo and wheat like a kit of Pensoms and you will get yard darts. That is a management problem...not a problem with the family of rollers.
Before we jump to conclusions about the stability of this family or that family, ask why these birds are having problems. My birds come in hot and fast and deep their first year. If they are coming into the roll and the molt, at the same time, some of these birds will exhibit stability problems, not all but some. If you know when to rest, when to add extra feed and what kind of seed, most birds will come through that most dangerous time in their life just fine. Now is that condition confined to just the Turner family? Of Course NOT! I know of men who fly pure Pensom's, who encounter the same difficulties. The birds will teach you, if you observe long enough. How does the statement go?......20-30 years of observation of Rollers will give you some understanding of these birds.
Often times, when a man experiences problems with his birds.... He dumps them and tries another family. When, in reality, all that needed changing, was the handling of his birds. Not all families can be handled the same way. Trying to manage birds from several different families at the same time can lead to disaster, (and I don't recommend it in the first 5 years of experience)....not the falut of the family...it is the fault of the handler. Look for a family that responds positively to your handling practices and learn those practices from the man whose family you are flying.....FIRST HAND! Not from someone who is 1000 miles away with a different climate and different birds. Just because a friend can handle HIS birds, does not mean he can handle yours.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 9:42 PM
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Scott
518 posts
May 10, 2008
9:43 PM
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(Now is that condition confined to just the Turner family? Of Course NOT! I know of men who fly pure Pensom's, who encounter the same difficulties. )
Absolutly right Cliff, it is all an uphill climb regardless of the family, there is no finish line or such thing as taking them as far as you can take them, it is always work in progress and a constant state of forward "and" backwards
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 10, 2008 9:49 PM
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Scott
522 posts
May 10, 2008
10:39 PM
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(Remember the law says if you are accused of a crime, you are innocent until proven guilty. Try extending that philosophy to the birds for a change.)
Well there is an evidence tape called "genetics" that shows it, LOL LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1339 posts
May 10, 2008
10:48 PM
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Katy..
Cool the jets man...nobody is picking on a certain person. Nobody is saying that a bird with color is not a Birmingham Roller....Birds that HAVE BEEN CROSSED are not Birminghamr Rollers...Listen..I have a pretty colorful loft..and Scott will tell you...do I do it on purpose..NOPE..I follow the roll...I have Grizzles, Blue Bar, Blue Check, Red Mottle, Torts, Baldies, Mealy Bar, Lavender, Blacks, Red Check, Recessive Red, Dun...its a gosh dang rainbow at my house.
What I am telling you is that we are talking about the crossing of another breed...I am not accusing cliff of crossing....or you for that matter....nobody is accusing anybody...it is about the "people" who do...like mean "people" suck...people is pretty broad. As far as crossing birds with other birds...I have a video that was sent to me...telling exactly what to cross with what...and the birds are all layed out in viewing cages and being handled..telling what was brought in for what color. Whoopy do...Just because you HAVE turner blood does not mean you are flying the F1 or the 3rd gens....the fact is..if you are flying birds for 10 years and they have not been crossed with anything and you have been breeding for the roll..odds are the color blood is burried...I mean..come on...I fly two strains...sooner or later....one of my strains will be dominate as I follow the roll and the cream will rise to the top...trust me if you are breeding birds that have Turner blood and they are in your loft and you are following the roll...then sooner or later you will get them to work for you..unless they are totally F1 and 2nd or 3rd gens...then you will have a job on your hands.
You say show me proof you guys have crossed...no need....we are not asking for proof...James himself in the video states that he crossed from other breeds for certain color..but no all....when I say colored birds...you know what we are talking about.....everyone has to look at what we are saying...if you do not have a mondain in your loft for crossing and then breeding back the chill out...does not concern you. It is about pure birds...and if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck is not sure...check some of the other posts.....it is explained why....I want to know why nobody comments on my last post or the post that make sense....some..keep going back to .."I have not crossed" then you have nothing to worry about.....WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BIRDS THAT ARE BEING SOLD AS BIRMINGHAMS AND IT IS SOOOOOO OBVIOUS THAT THEY ARE NOT.....you know some will look like a birmingham from the outside but it is what is inside that counts...You know...YOu can take a real good Ferarri clone or kit car...and put a real Ferarri right next to it..and from the outside it looks like a Ferarri...in every way...Until you fire it up and hit the gas and take some corners..then you know which is the real car.......man..I don't understand some of these posts.
What is so bad about keeping a breed pure....NOTHING!!
What is so bad about taking another breed and crossing it for a certain color...everything..it goes against the standard and against the furtherment of the breed.
that is it plain and simple....can you honestly tell me that a toy stencil lace thing..just popped up on its own.....tell me it did not..and i will shut up.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1340 posts
May 10, 2008
10:57 PM
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Cliff,
I think that you know me better then that. I never said that I hate Turner birds or did not like them...they did not work for me....and neither did Scotts...he even stated that in a post....he said...Paul does not even have any of my birds on his property...no big deal...so I have nothing against any strain.
As far as the moult...sorry dude..but I have been flying long enought to know about how to use a feed can and the moult....I took a long time working with these different strains and tried food and everything.
Hell..remember...I gave you my comp prep a couple years ago and you said that you had to modify it a little for your birds....that is what I had to do with my strains. As far as the birds bouncing..well..that was because they were to hot...nothing more nothing less....I never had one weird color pop out of my Turners....so I am not blaming the color. Anyway Cliff....nobody is saying anything bad about your birds..I would never do that.....but if you had a bird that was a toy stencil lace son bitch..I would just say..have fun with your birds...if you tried to sell it as a Birmingham..i would throw up the flag and say Not a nice thing to do..but I know you are not like that...and I see that you have goood birds by your scores.
Just because someone is flying Turner blood does not mean they are flying F1 mongrels.....because those birds would not hold up and you know that as well as I do. I have seen some nice kits of Turner birds.....but they were not full Turners either.....anyway..I think you get my point..no disrespcect to you or your birds...and I do not hate Turners...they were not right for me. And neither were Scotts birds. So....read my post last long post and tell me you agree...because I say nothing about strains..or accuse of color breeding...I just explain the facts of what breeds are etc.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
524 posts
May 10, 2008
11:14 PM
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( How many of our birds experience difficulties during the molt?)
Cliff, it has been my experiance that "my" good birds handle the molt very well, the ones that don't are the ones with poor charactor and were normaly a pain in the ass at one time or another,if anything they will out fly for a few days once the 10th start coming in, before you read anything into this, I am talking about "MY" birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1212 posts
May 11, 2008
4:29 AM
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Paul.So if the NBRC is in violation of their rules and regulations WHY is everyone still paying dues to an orginazation that is operating under false pretenses.Is it just to get the money?
If my rollers are not acceptable in the only National Birmingham Roller Club then why should I pay dues of 25.00 a year + another 70.00 to enter my rollers in the Fall Fly.
And not only that I am cheating someone that has Pure BRs out of winning when I win my region.I think you convinced me.David
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2476 posts
May 11, 2008
5:21 AM
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BOMBSHELL:
True = "The Standard"
If you look at what Mr Bill Pensom was saying in this light, it all comes together a makes sense.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2477 posts
May 11, 2008
5:48 AM
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Ok, here we go...
Check out how the choice of words changes the context or direction of the same sentence:
"True" and "Pure"
1: "The Pure Birmingham Roller will roll with inconceivable rapidity"
or
2: "The True Birmingham Roller will roll with inconceivable rapidity"
Which sentence sounds correct? If "pure" refers to a breed, then the sentence would mean that any bird within that breed WILL roll with inconceivable rapidity...
We all know that the animal kingdom teaches us something else; this sentence cannot be correct. Sentence #1 just is not logical.
However, if "true" is a way of expressing the "standard", then sentence #2 makes complete sense and would seem to support the position that the Birmingham Roller is a breed.
==
Now, how about this:
#1: "I only have true Pensom Rollers in my loft"
or
#2: "I only have pure Pensom Rollers Rollers in my loft"
==
The words True and Pure, have 2 different meanings
To better understand the choice of words used, use them in other sentence and interchange them, the proper word will "form" to fit the context of the meaning of the writer.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2479 posts
May 11, 2008
6:15 AM
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Hey Cliff, already have made some phone calls about DNA testing. I have a feeling its not gonna be cheap! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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3757
734 posts
May 11, 2008
7:44 AM
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Wow!! This is amazing! Here is some history that many do not know about and the entire story is in the book I am writing. Bill Patrick had some birds with white bars from Mr. Bellamy and Bill Pensom came over to watch the birds. Bill Patrick stated that Bill's response was that the birds were awesome true performers but they are not my strain. There was a lot of meaning behind this that Bill Pensom was saying and it was not a putdown to the white bars performance. It is a fact that birds that have been crossed for certain colors can spin. There should not be any dispute on that. But the breeders of the Black Country rollers were only a small number of fanciers and Bills family derived from those and those only. Yes, he was not a big fan of writing a pedigree but he also did not have any of his family of birds that were not descendants from the small number of Black Country breeders. For those of you who do not know Bill had his family of rollers as well as other breeds including other breeds of rollers as the competition badges. You cannot take every word that Pensom wrote as a literal statement as he assumed that fanciers of the time understood certain general things.
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Fire_Baller_916
262 posts
May 11, 2008
8:15 AM
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Good point there Laron...I also see that Bill had a few Madenas in one of his pics...Some of his birds seem to me to be color birds also...If the original Birmingham were dark color such as check, recessive, bb, rb, and etc..Where did the other color birds that bill had came from...I know that Bill did not use individual breeding loft that's why he probably wasn't too big about pedigrees...But who knows i could be wrong...I'll let Laron answer that one...LOL...
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Chai Seng
Last Edited by on May 11, 2008 8:18 AM
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3757
735 posts
May 11, 2008
8:28 AM
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Chai - You are incorrect on the individual breeding pens. I have heard so many people say that he did not use individual pens. This is incorrect. He used individual pens as well as open loft. Many of the birds he considered to be his prize birds were bred in individual pens. Some of his pens and Howard McCully's pens are still in use after all of this time. Many people think every bird that he bred was his family and this is not true. He experimented a lot. For example, if you received a pair from me to try out is that your family? People did this a lot in times gone by and some still do it today just to see what the other guy is doing.
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Fire_Baller_916
263 posts
May 11, 2008
8:36 AM
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Ok...LOL...I knew i could be wrong about Bill not using individual breeding loft...Those are his top secret stuff...Shhh...I'll let Laron do the educating...
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Chai Seng
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Ballrollers
1215 posts
May 11, 2008
9:03 AM
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I always appreciate your posts, Laron. You tend to focus on the facts in the issues, without adding negative judgements and criticisms. I thank you for that. It is so difficult to fully comprehend all of Bill Pensom's many contributions because of all the rumors and exaggerations. You are a great help with that....
Cliff
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Scott
525 posts
May 11, 2008
9:03 AM
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(Some of his birds seem to me to be color birds also...If the original Birmingham were dark color such as check, recessive, bb, rb, and etc..Where did the other color birds that bill had came from)
Chai, what color birds are you refering to ?
Birmingham Rollers have always carried a lot of patterns and markings within the breed , not just dark,rec red ect.
The breed is already a very colorful breed ,when we are refering to color birds we are refering to those that were brought in by crossing in other breeds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
526 posts
May 11, 2008
9:04 AM
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Tony, you are too heady for me LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 11, 2008 9:06 AM
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Fire_Baller_916
264 posts
May 11, 2008
11:11 AM
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Well since i brought it up people always refered Birminghams to dark color and i see that Bill had a few color birds himself in his loft and just brought it up...
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Chai Seng
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MILO
1005 posts
May 11, 2008
11:18 AM
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No Chai.
That is a huge misconception. It is an assumption lots of people make. Some key birds over the years just so happen to be darkchecks and such, so that's how it got going, and a lot of folks ran with the blood. Do I have them? Yes. But they come in lots of colors and patterns.
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2481 posts
May 11, 2008
11:20 AM
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Hey Chai, the BR comes in many wonderful colors to please just about any taste.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Fire_Baller_916
265 posts
May 11, 2008
11:50 AM
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Ok good, just want to hear your guys input about that ? ...I learn something new everyday...
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Chai Seng
Last Edited by on May 11, 2008 11:51 AM
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Ballrollers
1216 posts
May 11, 2008
12:37 PM
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Scott
You may have a valid point about the number of men flying "straight" Turner family. I know a few that do, but most have a good bird from here or there added to the base family. It just seems many roller men breed that way. If I saw a bird from JOE BOB that had it all, I would test the waters in my loft. I know Joe Bob would say his family was, primarily Turner-Based, (or South Carolina-based), so it should cross well with my birds. If it displays or carries a rare color modifier or not .... It has nothing to do with its performance.
But I see your point. How about I rephrase my assertion......many guys around here are sucessful with flying Turner "BASED" birds.... With or without reference to the "mutt" gene. LOL
But, I bet the same logic would follow with many flyers who fly a basic family but not a straight family. Most perfer to build their own family with birds from several lofts.
Cliff
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