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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive > James Turner: The Man - The Rollers - The Color
James Turner: The Man - The Rollers - The Color


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katyroller
143 posts
May 07, 2008
2:29 PM
Is the name of this site roller-pigeon.com or is it Birmingham roller-pigeon.com? I might be missing it but I'm not seeing where it says the site is dedicated strictly to the Birmingham Roller. We finally get a well written post that is truly educational and someone has to bring up cross breeding. You know who you are, post your facts so we can all be educated. Just look past the color issue and give the man credit for the great family of birds he produced? If we can call a bird a Roller, why can't we talk about it on this site without it turning into a name calling argument?
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2450 posts
May 07, 2008
3:45 PM
Hey Katyroller, I posted the article from Cliff because I felt it deserved to be posted. The article sheds light on a dedicated roller man who accomplished a great deal for the roller hobby.

That there is discussion about the ramifications of calling these so-called color rollers - Birmingham Rollers has nothing to do with the name of the site.

The debate is between 2 groups; 1 group is basically saying the Birmingham Roller is an actual breed with set standards published by the NBRC for it propagation, the other group maintaining that the term "True Birmingham Roller" is simply the description for any roller that spins with inconceivable rapidity that falls like a spinning ball. (paraphrase)

Should it matter? If there are those who hold the position that the BR is a breed, then they would be derelict in holding the position that they do, if they said or did nothing to protect the breed from what they see as a movement that is creating mongrels and calling them true Birmingham Rollers when the breeding does not back it up.

As long as name calling, badgering and baiting are not being done, lets discuss it.

After all, if we all agreed on everything, then some of us are not necessary. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

ezeedad
494 posts
May 07, 2008
4:59 PM
Turner's birds in my opinion were Birmingham Rollers IF they performed to the standard as described by Pensom.

And if I read correctly they did perform to a high standard.

If I read correctly he was also president of the NBRC... Doesn't that carry a little weight?

Does the the pedigree take priority over the performance?

Following some of the arguments I am hearing maybe thet shouldn't even be called rollers... Yes..?? No..?? Maybe..?? Uhhh...HUH..??
Gomez
ezeedad
495 posts
May 07, 2008
5:03 PM
Milo,
My sarcasm was lost on you... Let me break it down..
I KNOW you're not a nice guy... Again.. Who cares..??
Turner Birminghams would kick your and George Rs butts...
I'll put my money on the Turner birds..just by judging the character of the breeders..
Gomez
George R.
630 posts
May 07, 2008
5:06 PM
Paul
thanks for the compliment.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2455 posts
May 07, 2008
5:59 PM
Hey dad, if the BR is merely a performance description then you are correct in describing Turners color rollers as true birmingham rollers.

However, if one holds the position that the BR is a "breed", then you would, in my opinion be incorrect.

As far as being "president" carrying wieght, I hear he had some fantails, I hear he called them BR's too! ;-) Don't let the humor be lost!

As for the pedigree, if you were sold an offspring of Seattle Slew, would the pedigree make a difference, especially if you chose to sell it later?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

Velo99
1702 posts
May 07, 2008
6:09 PM
Gee guys
I just wanted to know there the original group ofbirds came from.

Went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. After that it was all pucked up. lmao

BTW





















































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Thank you and good night. Say good night Irene

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V99

Keep the best. Eat the rest.

Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 6:13 PM
fhtfire
1318 posts
May 07, 2008
6:42 PM
Gomez,

The Standard does not dictate what is called a breed. The blood is what calls it a breed. The standard is nothing more then some guidlines to what is the BEST specimin within the breed. IT is to make sure that us humans or breeders understand what we should be striving for to produce the best birmingham rollers.....a birmingham that is a stiff is still a birmingham....it just does not meet the standard...and should not be bred from....Think of it like this....if I have a Tumbler pigeon and it rolles like a birmingham in every way...it is still a tumbler....and you could look at it the other way...Ihad a roll down Birmingham roller that would roll across the lawn just like a Parlor roller...it met the performance standard of a Parlor...but no matter what..it was a birmingham...hope that makes senses....the standard does not make the breed....only the blood makes the breed..the standard is only a measurement of the talent the bird carries.....


stan·dard [ stánd?rd ]
noun (plural stan·dards)

Definition:

1. level of quality or excellence: the level of quality or excellence attained by somebody or something


2. level of quality accepted as norm: a level of quality or excellence that is accepted as the norm or by which actual attainments are judged ( often used in the plural )



breed [ breed ]


noun (plural breeds)


biology distinct animal or plant: a strain of an animal or plant with identifiable characteristics that distinguish it from other members of its species, especially one whose characteristics are preserved by controlled mating or propagation



select animals or plants: to select animals or plants as part of a process of improving or preserving their special characteristics


So..there are the definitions.....Standard is only a measurement...Breed is preserving the characteristic (rolling) that are preserved by selective mating....that means breeding pure....the second you cross for color..you are no longer selective breeding to preserve the characteristics of a birmingham...and that is the roll.

rock and ROLL

Paul

Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 6:43 PM
ezeedad
497 posts
May 07, 2008
6:47 PM
First of all Tony, I appreciate the intelligent way you approach such a conversation.
Let me answer to the three things that we see differently.

1. "if one holds the position that the BR is a "breed", then you would, in my opinion be incorrect."
Ans: I agree that it is a breed, and further, that when it is crossed into those crosses are no longer the breed. When the crosses are put back to BRs they will then be 3/4
BRs.. still not BRs...I still agree.. but then they can become 7/8... then 15/16.. then 31/32...
At what point can they become BRS...? Never..?? Regardless of perfornance..?? At some point, in my opinion they must cross the line into Birminghamdom...

2. As far as being "president" carrying wieght, I hear he had some fantails, I hear he called them BR's too! ;-) Don't let the humor be lost!
Ans; I know a joke when I see one... I hope.. LOL...

3. As for the pedigree, if you were sold an offspring of Seattle Slew, would the pedigree make a difference, especially if you chose to sell it later?
Ans: This isn't a trick question, is it..? Are you going to tell me that Seattle Slew was a gelding? If not,
first, I would have to make sure that it was a good offspring of Seattle Slew.. And that the pedigree was real.
Then the pedigree would make a difference .. of course..

My turn...
Is the quarter horse a breed? If so, at what point did this cross become a true breed?

Aren't Thoruoghbreds sometimes crossed with Arabians?
Are throughbreds a breed??

Aren't many other breeds often modified to a certain extent by introduction of other breeds?
Paul G
fhtfire
1319 posts
May 07, 2008
6:57 PM
Gomez,

There is a "Scientific" point when a crossed animal that is bred back to one of the original breeds for a certain amount of generations then it is indeed pure again...now I believe that it is 6 generations....

That is 6 generations of breeding each offspring to a purebred....then that 6th generation is considered pure again.....But..I do not think that when we or should I say that a bird is not pure....I am talking about birds that are within that 6 gen window...that is it...I am a purest...but I know that the American Dairy Goat association will let you register pure after 6 years....and that is a guess...it has been awhile...and it was all scientific.....but that is also VERY carefull time consuming breeding to make it pure again...and to be honest...they make that claim of 6 gens..because the the crossed blood will be gone and no longer show the traits...so....if you have a toy stencil and 6 gens later you bred all the offspring from the toy stencil to PURE STANDARD COLORED rollers...in theory..the colored gene would be lost...so ...if you are breeding for color...what is the point....the color gene would be burried so deep it would take another cross to pull it out...or a Freak of nature...get my point..the reason these organizations feel that "Scientificley" the animal will be pure..after 6 gens..is because they want the freak gene bred out....so if you have a 6 gen toy stencil and it is a blue bar..the odds are against that bird that it will ever throw a toy stencil again...UNLESS it is bred to another cross..or a another bird that is carrying that gene.

rock and ROLL

Paul
ezeedad
498 posts
May 07, 2008
7:07 PM
Paul (fhtfr),
I understand your point and you are correct in the way that you describe it. But at what point did it become a distinct breed?
I think that there is no clear line of demarcation that we can point to..
Okay, let's say it was the original imports. Were these all the same bloodline with the same ancestry... No, I don't think so. I think that Pensom intentionally made a performance standard that would prevail over any paper standard because this is the way the birds were defined back in England.
Another thing that I wonder about is whether the BRs of today can really be called Birmingham rollers alone by their ancestry. After all they are for the most part unlike the birds Pensom described. The two most glaring differences to me are the apparent dissappearance of the hole in most, and the nearng complete irradication of the varried performance abilities that Pensom described.. the twizzle, etc.. So in that sense, perhaps the true, original Birmingham Roller is a thing of the past..
Paul Gomez
MILO
991 posts
May 07, 2008
7:16 PM
Gomez.

Character of the breeders? What does that mean? Keep turning that Phillips. You think they can "beat" these bird? So what do I have? You make comments about birds you don't know (Moderated) about.

It is nice however to see your puting more thought into your posts.

c

Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 7:26 PM
ezeedad
499 posts
May 07, 2008
7:19 PM
Fhtfire (Paul),
Thanks for that explanation.
So, by that definition, there could be a point where a rare color could be considered a BR.. but it is unlikely and probably exremely unlikely... I could see a scenario however, that is possible, even by that definition.
The longer that there good breeders trying to do new things with these birds, the more confusing things may become... As for myself, I would never try any of those crosses... But I think that given human ingenuity and persistance, anything is possible..
Paul G
ezeedad
500 posts
May 07, 2008
7:22 PM
Milo..
I got you riled up...!! Score a point for me...!! LOL..!! But you talk like think you know something about my birds... Or was it George... I get your comments mixed up...
Paul G
PS. I guess I put more thought into the posts I made to Tony and Paul (fhtfire).. They must bring out the better side of me..

Last Edited by on May 07, 2008 7:25 PM
MILO
992 posts
May 07, 2008
7:31 PM
Well, I can say I have succeeded in bringing both the best, and the worst out of some of you. The thread has momentum Gomez. I won't detract from it. Thanks for your participation, and I respectfully bow out of this thread.

c
katyroller
144 posts
May 07, 2008
7:34 PM
Another thing that I wonder about is whether the BRs of today can really be called Birmingham rollers alone by their ancestry. After all they are for the most part unlike the birds Pensom described. So in that sense, perhaps the true, original Birmingham Roller is a thing of the past..

Paul, I have asked myself the same question and come to the conclusion that you might be right. I believe the BR of today, like many breeds of domesticated animals may resemble the original but over the years evolved into a sub species of the original. Compare the English and U.S. rollers for example. Colors are different, appearance is different and in alot of cases, performance is different. Maybe the Birmingham Roller in the U.S. should have been renamed the Pensom Roller since it was being bred to Pensom's standards. I will NEVER question the contributions of Pensom but let's not forget that he was not exactly loved by British fanciers.
Velo99
1703 posts
May 07, 2008
7:42 PM
EZ,
As FhtFire stated earlier, the BR is a performance breed. As soon as you breed for any traits other than the perfomance as described by the club, you are moving away from the objectives set forth by the governing body at this time,the NBRC. In as much,having moved away from the aforementioned objectives set forth by the governing body and would WILLFULLY be in violation of these objectives,your breeding program would be suspect as to the validity of the claims to the true and pure BR.
All the rest is so much hot air.

next?

Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2459 posts
May 07, 2008
7:48 PM
Hey "dad", I guess we will have to have a vote to kick you out of the NBRC for breeding in violation of club principles.

You are hereby fined $1,000 in pigeon grain to be delivered to me ASAP! Once received, you will be allowed to rejoin. (You have to pay your membership fee again though!)

Have A Nice Day!

NEXT! LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

katyroller
146 posts
May 07, 2008
7:48 PM
"I will NEVER question the contributions of Pensom but let's not forget that he was not exactly loved by British fanciers."

I believe I read somewhere that money and credit may have been the root cause of some of this lost love. Geez, wonder if some of the debate today isn't money driven?
Velo99
1704 posts
May 07, 2008
7:49 PM
Trace,
The differences in the size and shapes of the BR`s are the result to selection. Pensom described more than one pheontype. The original colors modifiers and factors are set into the breed. The closer the lines are bred,the frequency with which one observes these anamolic properties proportionately rises.
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V99

Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2461 posts
May 08, 2008
2:36 AM
katyroller said:
"...Geez, wonder if some of the debate today isn't money driven?"

Hey katyroller, now how different is someone calling others names and now you insinuating something about money being the motivation?

Really, both appear to be bereft of substance but throw out the accusation and BAM, debate gets ugly.

I guess I don't have to search the archives, I guess I can see the trash started on this thread? Was this your intention?

Probably not, but the moment you left the "substance" of this thread, you changed its complexion.

Why is it, the ones who do not have the mental stamina to hold the line, always seem to be the ones to say color does not matter, or we have been here before, etc?

Why not just zip it, ignore the thread and let some others do the lifting if you cannot?

I don't want to hear about how this sounds like the dual purpose debates (besides, look what happened to that, didn't the hobby move past it?)

I don't want to hear the "put em up or shut up" crap, it does nothing for the BR as a breed to make such statements.

Other animal breeds are not treated in such ways, why should the BR breed be any less?

If you cannot ADD to the discussion, then maybe you have nothing to say about it and should just stay out of it and let us have our little debate and provide entertainment for those with minds that cannot get grasp the significance of the importance of holding the line.

Lead - Follow - Or Get Out Of The Way!


----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 2:47 AM
katyroller
149 posts
May 08, 2008
5:26 AM
Okay, let's see if I can clear up some of this CRAP.

*Tony posted: Hey All, Cliff submitted a very well written and in-depth article regarding James Turner and his effort toward developing the roller.
*I replied: Great article! I hope everyone reads it and takes away something positive.
*Milo replied: Newbies BEWARE the words and practices listed here. Cliff, why don't you have a disclaimer like Fear Factor, like "Don't try this at home" so none of the newbies get hurt, or pollute the world with inferior birds.
*I replied: We finally get a well written post that is truly educational and someone has to bring up cross breeding.
*Tony replied: Hey Katyroller, I posted the article from Cliff because I felt it deserved to be posted. The article sheds light on a dedicated roller man who accomplished a great deal for the roller hobby.
* Tony my original reply was, "Great article! I hope everyone reads it and takes away something positive." I didn't question why you posted the article, I THANKED YOU for posting it.

Now we start to get ugly because money gets brought up! Who first mentioned the topic of money? Let's see... :)

*ezeedad wrote: Does the the pedigree take priority over the performance?
*Tony wrote: As for the pedigree, if you were sold an offspring of Seattle Slew, would the pedigree make a difference, especially if you chose to sell it later?

Tony, YOU chose to take the post to the money level not me or anyone else. The thread started out as being positive and educational but couldn't stay that way for more than three posts! It was just too much for some to agree that Turner contributed to the hobby and the BR as a whole. I will try to remember your following advise,"If you cannot ADD to the discussion, then maybe you have nothing to say about it and should just stay out of it and let us have our little debate and provide entertainment for those with minds that cannot get grasp the significance of the importance of holding the line." I am sure you will probably ban me from the Forum and or never post this reply but please give your readers an opportunity to read it and reply. Please don't respond along the lines of, "Luis, the difference between you and me is that this is my site. I LIVE here! I actually have something to say. You just visit." LEAD - FOLLOW - Or Get Out Of The Way!-- As a Marine and current member of the U.S. Air Force I live by those words EVERYDAY!
dmitch
70 posts
May 08, 2008
5:34 AM
Can i come in ?
nicksiders
2758 posts
May 08, 2008
5:48 AM
Many people have worked very hard over the last 3, 4, or 5 years to make the word "purist" to signify something that is harmful and should be avoided. Kinda like what conservatives have done to the word "liberal". If you keep working on it long enough you can overcome and change the meaning of most things, I guess. Until the day comes that an entire kit of cross bred Birminghams becomes a fly champion I will continue to believe as I have been.

Where I stand right now I honestly believe that Mr. James Turner has done more harm to the Birmingham Roller than good. He has created the image or impression that color can be found in the roll and roll can be found in color. We now have amatures who happily throw different breeds onto the Birmingham thinking the color will improve the breed either asthetically or performance wise.

I believe the color roller is here to stay and we can either choose to live with it or get out of the hobby. I am choosing not to argue with those who cross breed nor will I tolerate any abusse from those who do or promote cross breeding. On the bottom of my buttocks I have an "ignore button" and I will attempt to use it on all occasions that I encounter any negetivity from "purists" or cross breeders throughout the world.

I now have some expensive little chickens and that may be were I need to be, don't ya think? They are not fighting chickens; they are show birds only. I will take some pictures of them and you will understand why I have this strong interest. They are wonderful little creatures....fasinating.
katyroller
150 posts
May 08, 2008
6:04 AM
nicksiders, I have always understood the side of your argument and that of the others. I personally do not condone or participate in the crossbreeding of the BR. I as well as others personally enjoy seeing a little color in my lofts. I don't take issue with some of the colors such as andalusion, which have been in the BR history for many years. I personally feel there are enough color combinations available in the BR today, that there really is no longer any justification for crossbreeding to get new colors. :)
flo
101 posts
May 08, 2008
7:04 AM
"We now have amatures who happily throw different breeds onto the Birmingham thinking the color will improve the breed either asthetically or performance wise."

Nicksiders, I agree with you 110% on this quote.

This is just my personal experience but I know there a whole lot more newbie getting into this hobby that has started like how I did. When I first saw "rollers", I picked the colorful ones. If there was a cage of 10 rollers and there were 3 blue bars and 7 laced ones, I would grab those 7 and leave the blue bars. To say the blue bars would of rolled better is not the point nor the colorful ones rolled the best. Most newbie desperate to obtain performing rollers usually goes for the colorful ones.

Why?

It is lack of knowledge. Lack of history lesson. It is taking a "feather merchant's" word that it is "true" birmingham rollers (does not apply to Turner or any die hard roller fanciers).

I myself had lack of knowledge and with lack of knowleadge, I am doing this hobby a really bad favor. I could end up passing down some 1,000 rollers to other newbies claiming they are as pure as they are a "birmingham roller".

Turner was a great roller man, maybe one that we will see once in our lifetime, he had experience, he had knowledge, he had character. He successfully prove his theory and beyond. Now with a newbie like me trying to follow his footstep is asking for disaster.

Although I am not to judge if Turner did a bad thing for this sport; like Nick stated, he does make a point that in the wrong hands of a newbie or unexperienced roller fancier, playing with cross breeding into a roller can spell disaster for the rest of you guys and the Birmingham roller future itself. I am not going to name any sites but I know for sure there are other sites selling rollers claiming they are "pure birmingham laced roller". Any newbie would buy into that, reproduce and sell them off and soon you have the whole world selling "pensom stencil birmingham rollers".

This is just my opinion. Nothing against rollers of color nor pure birminghams....just a newbie's point of view.


"An old man is fishing, a young boy walks up to him and asked if he can have a fish since he hasn't eaten for one whole day, the old man says: I will not give you a fish but i will teach you how to fish so you can have a fish everyday for the rest of your life."



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FLO
www.blacked-out-loft.webs.com
SAKTOWN, KALI4NIA

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katyroller
152 posts
May 08, 2008
7:53 AM
flo, good post and I do agree with what you say. MOST folks trying to breed/fly the "color" birds will never be as successful as Turner was. I say that because I believe Turner was more performance driven than color driven.
katyroller
154 posts
May 08, 2008
8:23 AM
MILO, Now that is funny. :)
fhtfire
1323 posts
May 08, 2008
8:24 AM
Nick...that was a great post for being half way retarded...LOL...Kidding old friend...I agree with you that James Turner has hurt the BR...He is a very gifted and talented breeder...and he set a goal and he did what he set his sites on...but like milo said..there should have been a disclaimer...unless you are a skilled breeder do not try this at home..lol...but because somebody else did it does not mean that you can....Hell..I have a 72 Nova Ss...and I did not do the paint job with a spray can...why..because I do not have the skill...but there are some out there that try to paint when they have no skill....so....you are right Nick....it did more harm than good.....because there are shade tree mechanics that think they can build a race car..

rock and ROLL

Paul
glenn
114 posts
May 08, 2008
8:38 AM
Hello:

I guess I will go up to Scott's house & borrow his Rose Colored Glases, pick up some hip waders so I can wade thru the BullShit....You know this reminds me of the pigeon wars in the seventies...Dual Purpose I think it was call....intresting....Glenn

Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 8:41 AM
katyroller
155 posts
May 08, 2008
8:49 AM
glenn, no need for the rose colored glasses, it's better to see life the way it really is both good and bad. As far as the waders.. make sure they don't have any holes because it gets deep around here. :)
Ballrollers
1195 posts
May 08, 2008
8:54 AM
Paul, my friend,

You said, "There is a "Scientific" point when a crossed animal that is bred back to one of the original breeds for a certain amount of generations then it is indeed pure again...now I believe that it is 6 generations...."

That is exactly my point when it comes to some of the modifiers. They have been around for many more than 6-7 generations; some for 50-75 years.

And you said, "That is 6 generations of breeding each offspring to a purebred....then that 6th generation is considered pure again....."

That is exactly what Turner did.....

But here's where you blew it, when you say, "..they make that claim of 6 gens..because the the crossed blood will be gone and no longer show the traits"

If you study genetics, you will learn that your statement is, absoulutely, not what ooccurs. Once the genetic material for color is incorporated into the gene locus, you don't just "elimnate the blood" The recessive ones may not be as apparrent, true, but if it is a dominant trait it continues to re-assert itself...and it can be selected for , just as performance, feather, character, type, etc. That doesn't make it any less pure in the eye of the geneticist, because the vast majority of the genes are the original "pure" genes, so the new genes are incorporated into the pure breed

You also said, "....if you have a toy stencil and 6 gens later you bred all the offspring from the toy stencil to PURE STANDARD COLORED rollers...in theory..the colored gene would be lost...so ...if you are breeding for color...what is the point....the color gene would be burried so deep it would take another cross to pull it out..." Talk to Randy Gibson, or Ellis MacDonald, or Joe Quinn. They will tell you different....they will tell you what actually occurs as I described above.

"...is because they want the freak gene bred out....the odds are against that bird that it will ever throw a toy stencil again...UNLESS it is bred to another cross..or a another bird that is carrying that gene." Again, not true, and the occurrence depends on the dominance or recessiveness (the inheritability) of the trait, not it's "freakishness". The trait doesn't know whether it is something new or old. It just is...... and it functions and operates according to genetic principles.

I hope this helps to clear up some of your misconceptions about the principles of genetics.

Cliff
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2463 posts
May 08, 2008
9:12 AM
Hey Cliff, thanks for the genetics lesson. I am sure Paul appreciates it as well.

By the same token, are not the non-desired traits in the gene-pool of the out-cross, also coming along for the ride as well? So then they too become a part of the equation.

Do these genes ever show themselves by popping up from time to time? How do they impact the essence of the BR?

Did I understand your lesson properly to come up with this conclusion?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


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MILO
999 posts
May 08, 2008
9:16 AM
Cliff.

Go check the "is it ok to breed for color when..." thread...

Is this the kind of stuff you want the new guys dabbling in? Just check it out, please don't respond with a fifty page dissertation. A sentence will do. Thanks.

c
luis
951 posts
May 08, 2008
9:23 AM
Tony, i will state my opinions as i please(I'm a grown ass man!),and i will respect those that respect me.Learn to practice what you preach!Other than that do as you will.This is as you said your site.
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2465 posts
May 08, 2008
10:23 AM
Hey Luis, I have no idea what you think you are actually adding to this discussion. You seem to want to take it to the gutter by your comments.

Grown man indeed, begin acting like it and show respect for the posting policy if nothing else.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2467 posts
May 08, 2008
10:44 AM
Hey Katyroller, thank you for your service to this country, without your commitment and sacrifice we do not have this conversation.

My father served as a lifer in the Navy, my eldest brother just retired as a Lieutenant Colonel after a long and successful career in the Army and after 2 deployments to Iraq (first and second war there), 3 nephews who currently serve (2 Army 1 Marines, all have served in Irag, 1 just back, one still there), I have 1 daughter who got hurt in boot camp for Navy and could not finish, 1 niece also hurt in Marine boot and could not finish.

Our family are not strangers to the sacrifices military families make for the loved ones serving this country.

As an US Citizen who has always and openly supported the military and a man who risked all my family has, to open and run this business, I have every right and ability to say "Lead - Follow - Or Get Out Of The Way on this issue.

Thank you again for your service and sacrifice! GO USA!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!

Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2468 posts
May 08, 2008
10:51 AM
Hey katyroller, I mentioned money because it was in your post which is now missing. To me it seemed you were saying the motivation was money??

Was I wrong? If so, I am sorry. But is there another explanation?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


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ezeedad
501 posts
May 08, 2008
10:54 AM
Kenny (Velo),
I think you have some basic misconceptions...
EZ,
"".... As soon as you breed for any traits other than the perfomance as described by the club, you are moving away from the objectives set forth by the governing body at this time,the NBRC."

The NBRC in my opinion has as a group moved away from the original standard of the Birmingham Roller as defined by Bill Pensom.


"In as much,having moved away from the aforementioned objectives set forth by the governing body"

Governing body..?? Governing who..?? They have no authority beyond the limits of the club's competitions.


and would WILLFULLY be in violation of these objectives ,your breeding program would be suspect as to the validity of the claims to the true and pure BR.

So James Turner, the president of the NBRC at one time was willfully in violation...??

next?
luis
953 posts
May 08, 2008
11:52 AM
Tony,i simply felt the need to answer your threat of booting me out.I have no desire to add anything to these color topics anymore,and your continued observations of me mean little if anything at all!If you wish to lead,and that certainly appears to be the case.Lead by example!
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2470 posts
May 08, 2008
12:09 PM
Luis, the problem you have is you cannot concede the point and are behaving in a way that says you could really care less about your membership here. So let me help you out. You're DONE! NEXT!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


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Ballrollers
1200 posts
May 08, 2008
12:13 PM
Milo,
LOL! I'll see if I can hold my tongue a little. When you ask is that what I want new guys to be dabbling in, if you are referring to breed outcrosses...absolutely not. Few men have the skill and committment to performance that Turner had....and remember he tried the breed outcrosses and culled the lot because he said he did not have enough years in one lifetime to get the prodigy back to Birmingham Roller, in either type or performance.

On the other hand if you are asking whether I want to see new guys dabbling in the Turner family as a family to breed and compete with...absolutely! They are easy to work with, and the kitting, quality, depth, speed and work rate exceeds any family that I have had experience working with personally(Pensoms, Jaconettes, and Turners). I started breeding them in 2005 and have done pretty well with them in a relatively short period of time..as have other men.

That's as short as I can communicate effectively, my friend! LOL!

Cliff

Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2471 posts
May 08, 2008
12:17 PM
Good job Cliff!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria


"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown


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George R.
644 posts
May 08, 2008
12:18 PM
Cliff
I never got your email, I am still interested in getting a pair of turners to try myself.
Ballrollers
1201 posts
May 08, 2008
12:22 PM
Tony,
You asked, "By the same token, are not the non-desired traits in the gene-pool of the out-cross, also coming along for the ride as well? So then they too become a part of the equation."

Absolutely, it was a possiblity. That's why it took skill and experience for proper selection....and it took many years and many generations...just as when the BR was created from the other breeds...a similar process was used, I am sure. Just like we see those droopy wings (Oriental Roller traits) in many BR families. Lord knows....they could have taken them towards a racing homer type that could roll before James got ahold of them....
Byut in the family today, it is no more a concern than having some of the other old traits appear in a "pure" BR family. Those traits have been selected out and bred out, while the desired BR traits, performance and type alike, have been retained.

Cliff

Last Edited by on May 08, 2008 12:44 PM
Ballrollers
1203 posts
May 08, 2008
12:53 PM
George,
Send me your email, again. My basic philosophy in donating birds to othe guys is to let you have a kit to fly out. I have selected my birds based on my criteria...and that may be different from the way you might select them. Besides, you have to do some of the work! LOL! Right now, my comp kits are lean, as is the stock loft. If you have a kit to fly out, then you can pick and choose based on your criteria, as they develope. I hate to let guys have birds to breed. #1 I can't really afford it. #2 They might have high expectations. If you get a kit, you are taking the same chance that I have to to prove them out like I do...in the air and in the stock loft. I'm sure that makes sense to a man with your experioence. I appreciate your expression of confidence in this family of birds and in the way I have managed them.
Cliff
George R.
649 posts
May 08, 2008
1:39 PM
Cliff I am able to fly all year around out here maybe a late round would do.
Ballrollers
1204 posts
May 08, 2008
2:13 PM
Out of due respect to Tony, I want to make sure that everyone is aware that I am not offering kits of birds to all takers. I get a little carried away in my excitement for this family sometimes. Sorry, Tony. If anyone is looking for a line of quality birds, I would recommend you try Tony's Rubys. They are being flown by many compeititve roller men accross the country. I'd like to try them myself, sometime, to compare the performance, and their handling.
Cliff
fhtfire
1324 posts
May 08, 2008
2:16 PM
Cliff,

You read to deep my brother...The fact that you breed 6 gens of pure...of course the color genes will be floating around in there just like the stiff gene...the roll down gene...the gene for pearl eyes if yellow is dominate....I know cliff....what is a FACT is when you breed pure..the gene that you brought in...keep falling down the gene ladder with the top being the dominate gene and the bottom being the recessive gene....we all learned this in third grade with human eye color...of course the gene is still there...but it is burried...and of course it will pop up under the right conditions...just like certain pairs that I have if mated with the right bird will throw a grouse legged bird every now and then....because the gene is still there....anytime you cross something in new for one gen and then breed back to the original pure...you will lose the dominate affect...that is why the organizations use six gens....because that cross will be covered up. Even if a gene is dominate in one breed..it does not mean it will be dominate with another breed...Dalmation spot genes are a good example....cross it with a lab...and and do the same thing..you MAY see the spots with just the right mating...but the odds are very low...just like with the colored birds...with every gen the odds of producing the trait of that gene are lower....same with the roll....same goes for eye color..if you have a pear eyed bird bred to an orange eyed bird.....orange being dominate....and keep breeding to orange eyed birds...then sooner or later that pearl eye gene will be so covered up....but you will on occasion get a pearl eyed bird.....you are to smart cliff..you are like my brother..don't read to deep...you know as well as I know....genes get burried over time if you breed away from it...

Thanks for the lesson ...and I not claim to be a genetics expert..but I base my knowledge of growing up with livestock (champion)and breeding for certain traits......and studying over and over what traits are dom and rec...even dom traits can be buried over time....anyway...Every thing I say is based off what I have done and seen with my own eyes....As far as other guys in birds..that is fine...and like everything living...there is always an exception...but the small exception that pops up...is something that certain individuals run with....for example..if it happened once or twice then it is fact.....no...it is not...it is luck and statistics were involved...rock and ROLL

Paul
katyroller
156 posts
May 08, 2008
2:46 PM
Tony, No need to thank me for my service. I am in a all volunteer military and working in my chosen profession. My Uncle was a draftee who served two tours in Vietnam and earned a Purple Heart, he deserved to be thanked!
I found my post that you thought was missing.

"I will NEVER question the contributions of Pensom but let's not forget that he was not exactly loved by British fanciers."
I believe I read somewhere that money and credit may have been the root cause of some of this lost love. Geez, wonder if some of the debate today isn't money driven?

The above post was in response to questions regarding the contributions Turner has made to the BR and hobby in general. As stated some English fanciers felt that Pensom was given credit for the hard work of others and that he was a feather merchant here in the U.S..


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