Velo99
1705 posts
May 08, 2008
3:06 PM
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T,
Post 2470 LOL
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2472 posts
May 08, 2008
3:59 PM
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Hey Katyroller, Thank you anyway! You keep the bad guys away and glad you and the rest are there so we can sleep better at night!
Thought I might have read that "money" thing wrong, now I see I did! ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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MILO
1000 posts
May 08, 2008
6:55 PM
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Well, I assumed that would be your position on both Turner birds, and bringing in another breed. So that is good news. However, that wasn't what I meant...
Don't you think the new guys get confused, and think it is ok to have pretty colors first, and birds that roll second? I read that thread and got the feeling that he is confused as to what color breeding means.
Can people breed Turners. Of course, and we agree Cliff.
Is it wrong to cross in another breed? No, and we agree Cliff.
Is it smart to pick a roller based on color, and then think about if it rolls after the fact? For me no.
That was the substance of my question, and the subject of much confusion for the new guys.
c
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MILO
1001 posts
May 08, 2008
6:57 PM
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Didn't realize. 1000 posts. So where do I donate my hat Tony? LOL
c
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nicksiders
2759 posts
May 08, 2008
7:52 PM
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Yes, let us all rush out and ask the color breeders about performance(is it OK to say "color breeder"?). Why do we insist on confussing the newbie? We are telling them that there is no difference between a Birmingham Roller and a crossed Birmingham Roller. A person with just average intellegence and an average exposure to the world knows that when anything is cross bred it is no longer the same as the parents. Yet, we insist that they believe this.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 4:59 AM
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katyroller
158 posts
May 09, 2008
4:32 AM
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"A person with just average intellegence and an average exposure to the world knows that when anything is cross breed it is no longer the same as the parents."
Very true but there are cases where the crossed offspring are better than the parents that produced them. The further we get into this debate, the more I am getting confused over exactly what we consider "color" birds. For example, are we calling andalusion, almond, lace and yellow, color birds? I have heard these colors referred to as "color" and have to disagree. They may have started as color birds many years ago but I believe should be accepted as BR's today. Is the new guy that just fell in love with a lace bird or a yellow supposed to read these posts and believe that these birds are not true BR's?
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Ty Coleman
260 posts
May 09, 2008
4:59 AM
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Let me see if i can help this thread any.I have worked with 4 different familys of rollers now and none have been as easy to work with as the Turner family. I have less cull birds,and deeper and more frequent birds now.Im not advocating any one to cross breed for color, there are only a few select men that can do this without ruining the performance. A feed can is a big enough issue for a newbie,much less breeding for color.The Turner family has been around longer than i have and is a proven family,give the man his credit,he is a dedicated rollerman that gets harrased by people that dont even know him or his values.Before any one should pass judment on this family that should fly some there self even if you breed for purity. Then you will be able to judge them.You guys know how you feel about Pensom and his birds, we are no different im just a Turner purist!
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
2761 posts
May 09, 2008
5:04 AM
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Yellow and almond have been there all along and are considered colors of the pure roller. Tom Monson posted a great thread on pure roller colors on another site. Exceptionally good article.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 5:06 AM
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sippi
232 posts
May 09, 2008
9:17 AM
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The greatest misconception here on this site is that there are people ON THIS SITE! that are cross breeding. I dont believe there is one person on this site that is cross breeding thier birds. Everyone that is on this site is performance oriented. We would be foolish to try the things that James Turner has accomplished.
I have been ripped off more by people selling me "Pure" Pensoms than all other breeds put together except Orientals. I have never been ripped by someone selling me Turners. Funny isnt it.
How many meant to rip me off I do not know. I dont think every one that sells something knows he is selling crap. It may be that crap was all he had ever seen.
The best bird I ever owned was a pure Pensom also. There are good and bad in every family. It all comes back to the standard. Which todays comp birds are NOT bred to the standard so they must be crosses or impure!
Those on purist on the thread are pretty much preaching to the chior about cross breeding. Just because our birds are prettier than yours doesnt mean we are crossing.
Nick I was not involved in the early color wars on this site, but to me "purist" is not a derogatory term. I respect the purist point of view. It is just that some on both sides of the fence have given a pretty ugly impression of themselves. I happen to be on my side and you on yours. What someone thinks of you or the impression given by you is up to you and not them.
Sippi
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 9:24 AM
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Scott
489 posts
May 09, 2008
10:02 AM
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(I have been ripped off more by people selling me "Pure" Pensoms than all other breeds put together except Orientals. I have never been ripped by someone selling me Turners. Funny isnt it. )
Sippi, what is a pure Pensom ? that is a pretty broad brush as about every family in this country derived from the Pensom imports , and such birds were used to make the Turner mutts roll, not the other way around.
Speaking of roll, there is a world of difference between birds that are controlled by the roll verses those that are in control of the roll,it doesn't take a rocket scientist to breed hot birds, breeding stable birds that are full of roll takes a little more finess.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1711 posts
May 09, 2008
10:41 AM
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In recent conversation with a fellow fancier, he told me the AKC and other governing bodies use a standard approach to "new " breed or change the standard of a breed.
Firstly why do you want to change the breed?
Second what is the purpose of the change?
Third,will it improve the breeds objective?
Most color changes are not approved by these bodies by adhering to the 3 basic questions asked.
If we can establish a standard here on this forum why not use it? There is probably the largest quorum the rollermen here than anyplace else on the web, or on earth for that matter. I bet Tony can verify them huge amount of lurkers that dont or cant post because of thier postition in the two organiations. Access to the debate(s) can be easily accessed. Cliff is an NBRC official and member of the EC. Dave S is the GC of the WC. They could easily guide their respective committes thru the forum. We stand a chance of at least getting it looked at.
Once again lets work together to define the breed and its standards.
I am calling you guys out
Scott,Nick,Cliff,George,Tracey,Phantom,Keith,Tony,Jerry Higgins,David Strait,and Doc LaRon
Lets gather all the info we can on the origins and origainal colors of the breeds that compose BR. Someone call Frank Lavin.
Hes a wealth of information.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 10:47 AM
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Fire_Baller_916
252 posts
May 09, 2008
10:47 AM
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Getting heated up in here...Lets all give Tuner the credit and leave it that way...May Peace be with you all...
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Chai Seng
www.freewebs.com/raining_fire_loft
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2474 posts
May 09, 2008
10:47 AM
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SIR! Private 1st Class Tony Chavarria Roller Breeder Reporting For Duty, SIR!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Phantom1
208 posts
May 09, 2008
10:55 AM
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Kenny,
I believe your three questions to apply to someone that is actively "changing" a breed. I'm not changing any breed. I'm breeding rollers from rollers. I could care less if someone wants to call them BRs or whatever else. They're just rollers plain and simple. If I chose to compete in the FF or WC, it's good to know that they'll be accepted based on the "standard" of performance - not what their last names are.
Eric
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1201 posts
May 09, 2008
11:09 AM
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Kenny.It has already been established what the Standard is to be.
As for what colors were in the true BR's there is only 3 colors.Ash Red,Blue/Black & Brown.
Pensom exported all 3 colors to the USA so I guess we have all the colors.
Everything else is a factor or modifier which no one will ever be able to prove at what time they became part of the BR.
You can be sure that the WC or the NBRC will always accept any roller as a BR that meets the Standard.
If you take out all the so called Colored Mutts there will not be a WC or NBRC Fly.My opinion, David
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Scott
490 posts
May 09, 2008
12:32 PM
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(Lets gather all the info we can on the origins and origainal colors of the breeds that compose BR. Someone call Frank Lavin.
Hes a wealth of information.)
Honestly Kenny it isn't that important - some will color breed and follow the mutt cross as that is what they enjoy, others will just bury the mutt crosses deeper and deeper by breeding only for performance,it is what it is.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1712 posts
May 09, 2008
12:48 PM
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David,
Where can I read the standard?
Scott,
If we dont do the research,how will you know what the real colors are? Personally I would like to know.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Scott
492 posts
May 09, 2008
1:15 PM
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Kenny, it is much easier to know which ones aren't , but then if you stay out of questionable lofts it is a mute point.
It will always be the back yard flyers and kids lofts where you will see such birds in numbers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1325 posts
May 09, 2008
1:18 PM
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I forgot who posted it...but nobody is being accused of breeding for just color.....it was about if crossing is right or wrong...well it is wrong....and what is the benefit of bring a pretty color into a performance breed...I can't see any reason..but to sell more pigeons....
Kay roller.....yes the goal is to try and get birds to breed better offspring then themselves...but look at this.....if you cross two breeds...the offspring will not roll better then both parents..so why do it..second...one bird is not a roller...so how hard is it to breed chicken shit and get chicken shit.......no brainier.
Nobody is bashing Turner for what he did...as a breeder...he did not help the breed...he hurt the breed because he did the no no in the breeding world...but as a genetics person doing an experiment...he is one gifted SOB....I salute him for setting goals and hitting the nail on his head...but the fact is....crosses DO NOT HELP THE BREED>>>PERIOD>..LIke Nick stated..does not take a genious to figure it out...
To be honest...if you want to cross everything in your back yard...go for it..just don't tell everyone that they are pure and try and make a buck...second....Cliff..has turner blood..that is fine....I have seen some good Turner birds before with my own eyes...but they are not Turner birds from his color project....so I am not accusing cliff of having color birds or breeding color birds....and if he has trace amounts of color blood...well that is the whole points...trace amounts...is what happens when you keep breeding back to Pure Birminghams....
The whole point again..DO WHAT YOU WANT IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD....but for all means...dont let those birds out of your yard.......unless they are going to another Circus loft.......with pretty clown colors......There is no reason to put a new paint job on a performance bred bird....becuase if you breed for the standard...I am sure that a Archangel sire or dam...does not meet the BR standard when crossing to a BR.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1202 posts
May 09, 2008
1:19 PM
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Kenny.There is many books and articles that refer to the Standard.One book is "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by William H. Pensom on page 10.
Which was a quote from Lewis Wright I think.
Also in an article he wrote called "What is a Birmingham Roller" printed in the 'Pigeon Loft" in 1946.
Pensom said on several occasions he got great joy in quoting this standard because there was not another performing pigeon that could do this.Or something to that effect.David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1203 posts
May 09, 2008
1:24 PM
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I think some are getting Pure Birmangham and True Birmingham mixed together.There is a big difference.David
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Phantom1
209 posts
May 09, 2008
1:36 PM
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David,
That's a really good point. Never thought of that way. Then again, I never claimed to have Birmingham Rollers in any sense of the True or Pure words.
If I've got something "pretty" that looks good to the next guy and he as a "use" for it, he's not looking at the "standard"...he's looking at the color of the feather. It is what it is.
I feel this debate isn't over: Those darn cross-breeders that are taking other breeds and a BR and just selling the offspring as BRs. It seems to be a debate between those that understand themselves to have a TRUE/PURE bloodline of BRs and those that believe themselves to have birds that pursue the TRUE BR.
I don't think there's anyone here that can absolutely, 100% call someone out and say - You're crossing something with a BR to get that. So the argument is pretty mute. At least to those of us that do have birds of color. If anyone would like to point the finger and say "Eric, No! You're crossing different breeds of pigeons for the colors and factors in your loft", I will gladly welcome anyone and everyone over for a bar-b-que and we'll look at all the "other" breeds I simply don't have in my loft.
Again - very profound verbiage David. Well put,
Eric
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nicksiders
2766 posts
May 09, 2008
2:48 PM
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I now have American Serama chickens if anyone was wondering what kind of chicken I would give up rollers for.
Nick
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Ty Coleman
261 posts
May 09, 2008
3:28 PM
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Nick what class do you have?Thats the hardest chicken in the world to breed to me. You can breed two a class and have all c or d class come out or breed two d class and get one or two a class, i could never figure that breed out it was like a crap shoot to me.My favorite breed was the old english crele you ought to check them out.The serama's are real hard to hatch but you will figure that out. Good luck with them Nick.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 3:29 PM
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Scott
493 posts
May 09, 2008
4:17 PM
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(If you take out all the so called Colored Mutts there will not be a WC or NBRC Fly.My opinion, David)
Why is that Dave ?
not that it matters because they should not be excluded.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
653 posts
May 09, 2008
5:12 PM
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Eric
I think you read Scotts post wrong .. he said " why should they be excluded"
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Scott
495 posts
May 09, 2008
5:18 PM
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Eric, re-read my post , Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Phantom1
211 posts
May 09, 2008
5:27 PM
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DOH! My bad Scott. I'll delete the post.
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Velo99
1713 posts
May 09, 2008
5:38 PM
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Now we`re getting somewhere.
Scott, you said You`ll know em if you see em but are you 100% sure of that? We could very well be arguing over nothing as no one has verified which colors are acceptable as a true BR.
David would you please explain the difference between the True BR and the Pure BR? I am sure there is a distinciton but am having a little trouble visualising.
Phantom please elucidate on the previous post it is inciteful but I could use a bit more clarifcation.
Pursuit and Have.
What is(are) the other breeds that comprise the BR?
I have FOR and Dutch Tumbler.
Thanks guys
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 5:41 PM
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Scott
496 posts
May 09, 2008
5:46 PM
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(DOH! My bad Scott. I'll delete the post. )
No problem Eric, shoot I only skip over them myself, on the long ones I don't even read for the most part ,just bits and pieces, my attention span isn't that long LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
497 posts
May 09, 2008
5:56 PM
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Kenny we "are" augueing over nothing, the bottom line is we are nothing more than pigeon geeks pecking on the key board.
It still come's down to just us and the dog fondling pigeons in out own backyards 99.99 percent of the time.
On a side note, flying kits of checkers are a real pain in the ass.
I stocked a very nice cock and what I thought was the best hen in the team last weekend, flew the team today and that screaming hen was still there LOL , so I ID ed it by a missing flight and it was the cocks full sister, not the one I thought it was,CRAP what now,so I toss the hen back into the team and decided to use another that is allready in stock.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1714 posts
May 09, 2008
5:59 PM
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Here ya go Scott,
thought you might enjoy this one.
Goings on in the keeper aviary. We have this adorable little white hen named Katrina who is 8 years old. I guess she is some kind of roller - has a little topknot and is cute as all get out. She is one we bring in from time to time and let her sashay around the kitchen, twitching her little rear and dragging her tail for us. She has never settled on a companion but this morning Lewis called me to the window where we can see into the aviary. There sat Miss Katrina, and Lucas, our English Carrier, so close you couldn't put a piece of paper between them. I hope they have decided to be a couple.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Scott
498 posts
May 09, 2008
6:24 PM
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Kenny that has been going on forever, you should have seen my loft as a kid, it was all about pretty pigeons, sheez even myself and Kenny B had mutt color birds at one time,
some care and some don't.
Do I have repect for Turner for what he did ? No I don't, getting mutts or even pure birds full of roll is easy, breeding birds too handle such is the hard part regardles of the heritage.
And this is where Turner birds fall short and why the crossing of pure families into them by most that are serious about flying, and some have brought them a long way by doing such.
But are they still Turners ? I guess that depends on what you want others to believe but I tend to give the credit to those that developed thier own families even if Turners are in the background crossed on other families.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 6:45 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1204 posts
May 09, 2008
7:06 PM
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Kenny. A Pure Birmingham Roller can trace its bloodline back to the beginning of the Breed.
A True Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball.
Lewis Wright called them True,Bill Pensom called them True,the NBRC promotes True etc.I can't recall reading anywhere that the rollers were suppose to be Pure.David
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Scott
499 posts
May 09, 2008
7:13 PM
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Dave, that is called a "spin" job LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1715 posts
May 09, 2008
7:32 PM
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Thanks Dave,
Concise and to the point. I understand now.
On color,do you not believe that the colors from the original breeds play a part in the (rare)coloration(s) of the birds we have now? It would explain the huge variation in the colors modifers and factors of the(rare)colors flown in competetion.
Is it your contention that a BR not in a red brown or blue cant be a true BR?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 7:34 PM
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nicksiders
2767 posts
May 09, 2008
7:34 PM
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Ty,
I got those chickens off of Jay Thibodeaux who has done quite well with them. Scored an 87% with one rooster and is very happy with it. Jay has pretty much shutdown most of his pigeon operation and has left it to his dad (Aubrey) to carry on.
I haven't really gotten into these chickens much yet, but I fell in love with the little shits and think this is what I want to do.
Nick
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Velo99
1716 posts
May 09, 2008
7:54 PM
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ok
Quick 5 minute break down of the two breeds,and what colors they express.
FOR
All Colors
ODT
blue red yellow almond ash white brown
factors
grizzle tiger badge wf wt wft baldie/bib T pattern BARLESS barred and check
anyone else?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Ty Coleman
262 posts
May 09, 2008
8:11 PM
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Scott, i respectfully disagree with the statement about the Turner birds are hard to handle and they are in control of the roll the roll does not control them. This family is far more easy to work with than the other 4 familys i have flown.Scott i know you have your mind set and im not trying to change its sorta like Ron white says.But anyone who flys this family will tell you that your wrong.
Scott Campbell
Excellent Speed
Excellent quality
come in any color as long as it is RR or Dark check..LOL!
get strong real easy you can lose control real quick
perform best when you feed them down
not for the newbie
when they are on..none better.
very powerful birds
goofy
good depth
kit like glue
good homing ability
4-7months come into roll
feather quality not as good..but it could be the speed..a good campbel kit birds..look like it has had the shit beat out of it.
Work very Hard
can live for a week off one grain of wheat
will attack and kill any yellow or bird of rare color
Lavin/Turner
Hot
Deep
Fast
come into roll about 3-7 months
longer cast
excellent parents
bump a lot when young..but get better and better.
longer cast
very powerful
kit like glue
frequency Normal
deep but strong enough to get back to kit with ease
rock and ROLL
Paul
This was Pauls post on another thread
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 8:20 PM
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nicksiders
2769 posts
May 09, 2008
9:25 PM
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Ty,
Paul has given up on the Turners a couple of years ago.
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Scott
500 posts
May 09, 2008
9:25 PM
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Ty (Lavin/Turner) what are we talking about ? ask Paul what happened to the straight Turners , and no I don't base what I wrote on those birds that Paul had.
Ty, what I write isn't my opinion,it is based on reality by those that used them to develope their families, it is what it is.
Hell Paul doesn't have any of mine on the property any more either, no big deal, my birds are hard to handle once they mature and can they can be a real pain in the ass at times, again it is what it is, I'm not going to try and spin it to make anyone think any different.
Ty, NEVER do you hear me talking up my birds, why do you think that is ? I'll tell you why, because I am a realist and I DON"T look at my birds through rose colored glasses.
Ty, breeding good stable pigeons doesn't come easy, I don't care what the family, and honestly Ty you don't have enough time with those birds to know what you have or don't have.
On that note I have been working this family hard for 10 years and I am just now starting to scratch the surface with them,sometimes I swear at times that I have shit for birds , other times not, it aint an easy breed and there are no magic bullets, but there are bullets that will shoot you in the foot if you aren't careful and you like wearing rose colored glasses.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 9:43 PM
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Velo99
1717 posts
May 09, 2008
9:57 PM
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I have that pair now, The hen is the turner and she is pretty hot.
The pair overall are great parents and I would never part with them as they are an asset to any breeder loft in any capacity.
I have raised several birds from them and havehad some prettygood ones and some that were carp just like any other pair.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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fhtfire
1328 posts
May 09, 2008
10:13 PM
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Ty,
Kenny had the best producing Turner hen that I had and the cock....I thought was a Lavin must be a Turner..because he came in the same bunch....anyway..those were the best producing pair and that is why Kenny has them.
The post I wrote above was before I really flew them out. They were good for awhile and then they fell apart. They were on the hot side...when I say that I flew them out...I mean let them fly for at least 14 months....3/4 of the birds never made it to 14months...they would crash hard and get hurt or just bite the dust....I had more roll downs then ever. They did roll hard and fast when they were on..but it was a short window. I am not going to name the name of the person that I got them from but he is a Turner flier....I did not get any wierd colors out of the birds..but they were too hot for my style.
With Scotts birds you need a little more patience..but I will tell you this..when they are on...I have yet to see a nicer kit of pigeons.....Every strain has to fit the flier. I really had to get into my head when I did my test with different families...that the "big" name was meaningless and I had to find birds that fit me.
That is how I ended up with the Ruby Rollers and the Mort Emami birds...most people would say..who the hell is Mort Emami...LOL...and at the time when I started with the RUby Rollers...it was sight unseen.....I had birds from Campbell, Turner, Mort, Masons, Rubys and some other strains....
Anyway...I do not know if Tony still has the Reading room..but I wrote an article called starting out.....anyway...the Turners did not stand the test of time for me...but again that was for me...
Anyway..Kenny got the best Turner Pair that I had....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ty Coleman
266 posts
May 09, 2008
10:58 PM
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Paul thanks for the clarical post.From every one ive talked to about this family the second year is better than the first which is what i hear of most other familys. These birds dont need to be starved to roll if you break them down they will bounce unlike other familys.I have only had one rolldown out of this family and i have alot of deep birds.So far this is the best family of birds i have flown and as of now im not looking to change.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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birdman
559 posts
May 09, 2008
11:04 PM
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Ty, how long have you been flying rollers?
Russ
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Scott
505 posts
May 09, 2008
11:08 PM
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Ty no birds should be starved down to roll, are you flying the straight Turners or the ones that have been crossed on other families Ty ?.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 11:12 PM
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katyroller
161 posts
May 10, 2008
5:19 AM
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"Kay roller.....yes the goal is to try and get birds to breed better offspring then themselves...but look at this.....if you cross two breeds...the offspring will not roll better then both parents..so why do it..second...one bird is not a roller...so how hard is it to breed chicken shit and get chicken shit.......no brainier."
Breed a Galati and a BR or a OR and a BR, will the offspring roll better than the parents... possibly. Which one of the parents is not a roller? Hell... I've been told my Whitts aren't BR's so if I cross them on BR's like quite a few BR folks have done, technically I'm crossbreeding.
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Ty Coleman
267 posts
May 10, 2008
5:28 AM
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Russ about a year but ive done my homework and im dedicated to my birds. Scott i have 5 birds that are not turners 2 pumpers (pensom)1 (plona\Turner)1 (rominger)2 (kraker)my breeders are pure.I keep up with my loft very well .
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
268 posts
May 10, 2008
5:34 AM
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Scott im not intristed in chasing my tail debating with you it gets you no where your mind is set we both no it.I just wanted to point out that you were wrong about the Turner birds not being stable. The Turner birds are stable! Just my honest opinion lol . Spin it however you want, my point is made.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1205 posts
May 10, 2008
5:47 AM
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Kenny.You asked me:
On color,do you not believe that the colors from the original breeds play a part in the (rare)coloration(s) of the birds we have now? It would explain the huge variation in the colors modifers and factors of the(rare)colors flown in competetion.
I most surely believe that the colors,modifiers & factors from the original breeds play a big part in what we see in the rollers today.
You also asked:
Is it your contention that a BR not in a red brown or blue cant be a true BR?
It is my contention and always has been that no matter what color we think we see there is only 3 basic colors in any pigeon.Ash Red,Blue/Black & Brown.Everything else we see is caused by a modifier or factor that causes us to see these 3 Basic colors the way we do.There is many things that will cause light to reflect off a color and we see things in a different view.Such as Dirty,Smokey,Reduced,Dilute,Indigo,Spread,Faded and others I can't think of right now.All these things when used with any of the 3 basic colors or combination thereof will cause different effects in what we see.In all reality there is no Blue in pigeons.It is just the way the light reflects off Black that we think we are seeing Blue.This is why most genetic folks refer to it as Blue/Black.
Back to your original question:
I have been taught since 1962 that any pigeon that can roll according to the Standard of the BR is a True Birmingham no matter if its bloodline can be traced back to Persia,Turkey or Birmingham England or any where else in the World.It is not the blood or color that makes a True Birmingham Roller but the gene for Roll that makes it perform according to the Standard.
I am sure there is more educated folks on here that can explain this better than me.But this is the way I have been taught and the way I will believe untill someone can prove to me by documented proof otherwise.David
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