nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3967 posts
Dec 23, 2009
5:53 PM
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Do the following wing positions get the pigeon scored?
Axle ; X ; A ; H ; and ()
Now this is saying that the bird achieved all other scoring criteria.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
232 posts
Dec 23, 2009
6:13 PM
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Nick
It depends on what the judge is able too see , I would say it is impossible for any human eye to watch a kit of 20 birds break together and be able to see every Birds wing position, velocity, exit of roll, depth, in clear detail.
Any body who claims that they can see every Birds action in clear detail during a break of 10 or More pigeons is dreaming.
what you should be asking is ' should the World Cup and NBRC pay for a eye exam for whoever is judging the Fly"
it's no secret that a persons eyesight begins to diminish at the age of 40 , and the last time i looked there was no 20 year olds Judging the Big Fly's.
I had a eye exam when I turned 39 and I was shocked by how much better I could see with a pair of prescription Glasses on, and just think all the time I thought that I had the Best vision a person could have.
regardless of what the fly Rules say if a guy cant see then it dont matter what should or should not be scored.
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 6:15 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3968 posts
Dec 23, 2009
6:45 PM
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This is my take; any and all of these wing positions would score as long as all other criteria was met. The wing positions would influence the quality (Q) multiplier with the axle negitively affecting the multiplier the most; then the X; then the A; then the H; and finally the () being the best.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
542 posts
Dec 23, 2009
7:59 PM
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I have followed this on another pigeon list. I have read and hopefully learned something. For the most part I have never been able to see wing position in my birds, I definitly have not been able to when they get up to 300 to 500 feet.
I judge the quality in my birds simply by how smooth they are in the roll, no wing switching, and how they exit the roll.
Maybe I need to have my eyes checked, a year ago I had 20/20, but I could not see the wings then either. Then again I wasn't looking, As a newbie I was looking for the things I discussed earlier.
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 8:00 PM
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donnie james
846 posts
Dec 23, 2009
8:13 PM
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hay nick when i was judging i scored the "A" and the "H" and the () i feel there wing position the best wing position
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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George R.
233 posts
Dec 23, 2009
8:33 PM
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Just so every one knows I am not saying that the Judges that have judged in the past couldnt see , I am just saying that if certain people want to change the Rules they need to start from the bottom and go up.
All the flyers can ask for is for the person that is selected to judge do the best they can. After all this is just a hobby and winning the fly is not the most important thing about the fly. The time spent with your friends and Family are way more important then any fly . there is nothing wrong with the NBRC and World Cup Fly Rules in my opinion.
as a matter of fact I have always respected and held in high regards any man that has the Courage to be a Judge .
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 8:49 PM
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Scott
2724 posts
Dec 23, 2009
9:29 PM
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Axel wingers are culls...never have nor ever will score them.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Mongrel Lofts
631 posts
Dec 23, 2009
10:55 PM
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If you allow culls to be scored in your competitions,then culls will be flown in competition. Axle wing rollers that roll with their wings sticking straight out to the side are pure culls! Culls should not be scored on purpose in any respectable competition of rollers. KGB
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
545 posts
Dec 23, 2009
11:03 PM
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Scott and Kenny
Can Axel wingers roll smooth? I know from reading that from the side they can be difficult to Identify, So am wondering how to ID them, other than seeing the wing postition.
Also can you see the hole on an axel winger? I have a few from my Starley family that show the hole, they are sweet smooth. Not as Fast as the Birds from your family, but very pleasant to watch. These birds I can see the Hole on.
I also fly on a hill, so sometimes my birds are almost staight out, but 150 feet up. I get better side views than most.
I have never seen what I believe you call an axel roller, so I am just asking to know what to look for.
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3969 posts
Dec 23, 2009
11:50 PM
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I think H wings are culls and I will not score them. That sounds as dumb what you are saying. It is my opinion the H's are culls and only () should be scored. See how stupid that sounds.
It is one thing not to score them and it is another to lower the "Q" multiplier if you see them.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3971 posts
Dec 24, 2009
12:00 AM
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....and one more thing; it has been decades since I have seen an axle wing and I see very few X wings since I have moved away from California.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
579 posts
Dec 24, 2009
4:42 AM
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Judas Priest, Had to put up with this inane BS on the other list for the past 2 weeks. Nick, why did you bring it over here. Is this part of your never ending quest to insure that no horse is too dead to beat?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2241 posts
Dec 24, 2009
5:49 AM
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Nick
I thought these competitions were to score rollers? Maybe we should better define what a roller is, and start there. I think the rules were written to score rollers and then give higher or lower Q multipliers depending on what the judge saw? Since we have a Depth standard and we have a velocity standard, if those two things are met and NO faults are observed, in my opinion, you probably have a roller that should be scored. Did you ever read anything about what makes a roller unscore-able besides faults or being an out bird? Did you ever read anything about anything else that would lead you to believe any wing position is NOT to be scored?
Hmmmm. I guess this is more about "opinions" than I first thought. I guess we are back to square one on "should opinions be fly rules?"
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2242 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:14 AM
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Nick
Can a shrunken ball wing position ever NOT be scored? Sure....if it does not finish cleanly, does not perform for 10 feet, or is an out bird at the time it performs, etc. The same holds true for any and all wing positions. Just having a certain wing position does not automatically assure a bird of being scoreable. If that is true, how can any wing position be automatically disqualified without regard for depth and velocity? (Especially, if the fly rules make no mention of any wing position being good, better, best or unscore-able?) Should we just leave it up to the judge to decide what is or is not a score-able wing position, since the fly rules give us no direction? Or should our elected officials do something to rectify this sticky situation? Would something that is NOT PERFECT, not 100% accepted by all of us be better than what we have now? Is anything universally accepted in this Roller sport? Do we placate a few or think about what is best for the many? How do we balance the two? Is anyone interested in balancing the two? I'm not sure I have the answers.
Cliff
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Scott
2725 posts
Dec 24, 2009
8:15 AM
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Cliff..why would you argue for inferiority ? It hurts you,the breed, and new flyers... and makes us less competitive around the world.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
583 posts
Dec 24, 2009
8:47 AM
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I have resisted getting into this argument on another site but I have to agree with Scott. Axle wing rollers are culls, plain and simple. They should not be scored in WC or NCF level competition. Since most agree that they are a rare occurrence, I am not sure why this topic is getting so much buzz.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2243 posts
Dec 24, 2009
8:58 AM
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Scott
I am not arguing for inferiority. I am arguing for a Quality standard; and maybe one that would define all wing positions and rate them from best to least quality. I'm just not sure that we are in the position of knowing enough about wing position, being able to accurately identify it as a hobby, and agreeing about what is right and wrong about it, that it should be included in the written standard at this point in time.
We have little or no guidance regarding performance, to be found in the fly rules. I think we need some additional information in place to guide flyers and judges alike. This is one of those situations where nobody will 100% satisfied with whatever the EC comes up and the flyers approve. But I for one will accept the majority decision of the flyers, whatever taht may be, and that decision will hopefully, help us avoid future misunderstandings. You know me well enough to know that I am not swayed by anyone trying to beat people over the head with their opinions or agendas. The NBRC is a USA club and we do what is best for the NBRC members. What rules used by other nations is not our concern. The best kits in the USA will not be affected by where the NBRC draws the line for a minimal quality standard. To have any standard, we need to define a top and a bottom standard. Right now we have a 2.0 that has never been achieved to my knowledge and a bottom standard that changes from judge to judge. It is no wonder the USA flyers are confused.
As NBRC National Fly Director I represent all the members and all the flyers, not just the elite dozen or so who are participating in this discussion on a couple of internet forums. In this year's competition, 440 of the 676 kits entered scored 50 points or less, including those kits that were so poor that they weren't even flown. That's 65% of our competitors, and that is without any style restrictions based on wing position. I suspect that 90% of the axel rollers out there are among that 65% of the kits. I just cannot support any rule or policy that is going to have the most negative impact on this group of flyers, while not having any impact on those "protectors of the breed" who seek to impose those restrictions. The other 35% are the guys with more years in the hobby, more experience in competition, and more proven producers; resulting in having bred away from axel rollers. So this rule would have little impact on them. The other 65% have enough strikes against them. Most can't get proven birds to breed from...relentless BOP...weather. ...I refuse to go to them and say, "We have tightened our standards for you guys. You know those five-bird breaks you had. Well one bird was an axel roller, so you lose them all and get a 0. We have to keep our standards high, you know. But keep trying....and keep paying your entry fee, so we can get more qualifiers into the finals" Is it not more encouraging for these guys to continue to compete, for them to get their 25 or 30 points and let the judge coach them? For example," I gave you a 1.0 in your Quality multiplier becasue you had an axel roller or two in there. You should breed away from that type of performance because its the bottom of the rung with regard to quality performance and wing position." Yes, the breed is important, but the NBRC, its members and its competitions are equally important to me. The breed has done just fine without a restriction based on wing position up 'til now.
Here's a suggestion for those of you who are so adamant about raising the bar on our standards. Why don't we even the playing field a little? All competitors who are Master Flyers, or those who have won a National Championship or International Championship, will be required to score only H pattern or above, 20 foot minimum, 1.5 speed or better, no outbirds allowed, only simultaneous instaneous breaks in a 20 minute minimum will be scored. All other competitors will fly by the current existing rules. THEN everyone would be on the same level playing field!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 9:13 AM
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Scott
2726 posts
Dec 24, 2009
9:15 AM
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Cliff.. it has nothing to due with raising the bar.. the bar is already set..some just have a lower bar is all..and a some want the rest of us to lower bar instead of stepping up theirs.
(Here's a suggestion for those of you who are so adamant about raising the bar on our standards)
Are you suggesting two seperate flys ? The fact is though those flying under the better standard will just move far beyond those flying under the sub-par standard
( Why don't we even the playing field a little. All competitors who are Master Flyers, or those who have won a National Championship or International Championship, will be required to score only H pattern or above, 20 foot minimum, 1.5 speed or better, no outbirds allowed, only simultaneous instaneous breaks in a 20 minute minimum will be scored. All other competitors will fly by the current existing rules. THEN everyone would be on the same level playing field! )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2727 posts
Dec 24, 2009
9:18 AM
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It is also worth mention that I did not..nor would I score axel wingers in the Nationial fly this year.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2245 posts
Dec 24, 2009
10:11 AM
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Geroge
OK, I don't represent you. But when something has to do with the organization of NCF, I bet I am the man you will call, and I am the one to listen to your problem and I will be one to try to help you solve the problem. I am here for every region and every RD to see they get the judge where they want at the appointed time.
I also do not endorse or defend the Axle wing position. It is the bottom of the barrel as far as a quality wing position. The question is ..... If any wing position that can meet the depth and velocity standard, and if it has not faults.... can it be scored? The rules do not say and we need the rules to say. AS long as we get a list of wing positions , define those positions and rank those position highest quality to least quality..... That will help us avoid many of these misunderstanding, IMHO!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2246 posts
Dec 24, 2009
10:18 AM
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Scott
What we need is for everybody, judges and flyers alike, to KNOW where the bar is. To do that, we need a written quality standard defining the highest point and the lowest point for the perverbial bar to rest. WE can't raise the highest part any higher, all we need to do is define the lowest point where the bar will be set. Then we have a range that we are clearer on. The middle range scoring is much more critical than where the bottom is located. A sliding scale is what we have now, and it varies from one judge to the next. You judge the way you want. The rules suport that, and you did a fine job. But then, under the existing rules, you have no right to complain the way you do when another judge with a different personal standard socres 2000 points for the winning team. A written standard, for some judges will raise the bar. For other judges, they will feel, the bar has been lowered. We must set it where we all know where it is, and where the majority votes and agrees. Whether it is up a notch or down a notch, it will not affect the top ten-twenty-thirty kits one way or the other. It's a rediculous argument to wear a badge and fret over the bottom rung as though it means something serious. It's hobby. It's for fun, remember?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 10:19 AM
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Flipmode
389 posts
Dec 24, 2009
1:01 PM
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"Now this is saying that the bird achieved all other scoring criteria."
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I would give 1.0=Axle, 1.3=X, 1.5=H, 1.7=A, and ()=1.9
And yes a kit of 1.0(Axle winged) quality rollers are indeed CULLS!
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Scott
2728 posts
Dec 24, 2009
1:37 PM
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Mike.. yes they are (axel) culls..so why would you score a cull ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Flipmode
391 posts
Dec 24, 2009
2:41 PM
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Not on purpose Scott. Camoflauged in with higher quality birds they are difficult to spot when they break from the side view and roll straight and fast... I have "NEVER" seen/judged a whole kit of Axle Wingers. My judging standard would probabally change if and when I do. :)
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Scott
2730 posts
Dec 24, 2009
3:00 PM
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I agree Mike.. we do our best to discout the junk..and that is all we can do.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3972 posts
Dec 24, 2009
3:38 PM
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Joe, not everybody belongs to that other list. And the buzz is over judges taking it up on their own to go outside the rules of the fly and instituting their own preferences. It is a dangerious thing to do for the welfare of the sport. They will say things like "I am raising the bar" and other horseshit comments and all the while they are beginning the destruction of the competition.
Hell, we have people wanting to set up two events One for the experienced roller fliers and one for the new fliers. I wonder how long the new guys would not be allowed to compete against the experienced. I have seen some real crappy kits being flown by the experienced.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3973 posts
Dec 24, 2009
3:40 PM
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Scott, is that the only thing you didn't score in this years finales?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2731 posts
Dec 24, 2009
4:03 PM
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Nick.. also anything wingswitching or not coming out of the roll cleanly and correctly..also anything that I could count the revolutions on.
Nick.. the idea of another fly has been floating around for a few years now due to what some judges are judging.. this has already started overseas due to the same thing happening in the W.C.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
585 posts
Dec 24, 2009
5:03 PM
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Nick,
I agree with you for the most part. Just think axle rollers, wing switchers, rolldowns and non-kitters are all in the same category. One thing we totally agree on is this business of a master flyer only competition. That is a bankrupt idea, would drive many others away from competition. Hell why don't we just form a master flyer only club and they can make up their own rules on the fly. I've got a question for you, how would you score an 80' tight H style rolldown? How is that any different from an axle wing roller?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year old friend.
We are definitely going to have a white christmas here, snowing like hell right now with flakes as big as half dollars
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3977 posts
Dec 24, 2009
5:09 PM
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There is no difference. I am just trying to make a point the judge must stay within the rules for the competition and not be interjecting their own standards. I am glad I don't see any more axle wings and it has been years that an out an out roll down as you described has appeared in competition. I am glad of that as well.
Plus, I love giving Scott a bumpy road.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
586 posts
Dec 24, 2009
5:15 PM
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Nick,
I think the caveat in the rules that allows the judge to score only what he considers "acceptable" opens the door. If we want to hold judges to a standard then we need to tighten up the verbiage in the rules and eliminate those things that cause the distress.
I understand your desire to give Fred a bumpy road but he does that pretty good on his own! LOL
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 5:17 PM
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JMUrbon
810 posts
Dec 24, 2009
5:20 PM
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There is nothing that says a guy has to fly X style rollers or better in competition. I am in agreance that axle rollers belong in the bottom of a barrel along with the wing switchers and non kitters but what we must all remember is that of all of the kits that fly in the WC and the NCF there are only a small percentage that actually know they have a chance at winning it. The rest of the fliers either got talked into flying to support the fly and then there are those that have never missed a fly and fly just for that reason. Without a set of rules that are definite and can be understood by all then every time a judge says he will not judge a kit that is not rolling to his satisfaction but is still rolling what most consider the minimum we stand the chance of loosing another flier. We all know that the small percentage that thinks thay have a chance are not the ones that finance the fly. We need everybody. I dont think that the bar is being lowered by stating what needs to be scored and what doesnt by the differences in quality. It just means that the quality multipliers will be used like they were designed. Look at the Multipliers from the past flies. IMHO far to many judges are afraid to give a 1.0 and that is were the lower quality kits belong.
I too have never witnessed an entire kit of axle rollers and probably never will. It just isnt something we are trying to breed. But if its what a guy has to fly he and everyone will know it so give it the 1.0 that is the bare minimum that a roller can get that actually rolls. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Newbie 08
175 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:05 PM
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I'm with you JM Urbon. the big guys who feel they are in the top always have to ine a way to look down their nose!----------
~~~~~~Roosevelt
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JMUrbon
812 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:08 PM
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Im not sure what or who you are refering to in your post as I peronally know alot of the guys at the top and I feel I have been one of them on more than one occasion. That was not at all what I was saying. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
546 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:17 PM
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Scott, KGB, Cliff,and Nick, I hope someday to have each of you under my kit, and I hope that you find them acceptable, as to wing position, depth, velocity, and instantanious(sp) breaking. If not I hope that you explain to me why you find them lacking, and help me see the difference.
In the mean time it would be nice if the NBRC or WC would define what Quality meant, and what was the worest (starting with Culls)and ending with what was top notch. I would not expect all possibe combination to be explained, but a good description of the most obvious would be nice. At least then we all would know what the expectations are, what the standaerd is, even weirdos like me that lice a 100 miles from other roller friends.
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RT Williams
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George R.
235 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:32 PM
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"the big guys who feel they are in the top always have to ine a way to look down their nose!----------"
funny .. I am starting to see a pattern Once a guy reaches master Flyer Push to change the rules this way it's harder for someone else to achieve that goal.
why didnt they think of these Rule changes before they became Master Flyers.
i once asked a Master Flyer 'why cant we fly useing the same rules that you achieved your Master Flyer status with " I am still waiting for him to answer LOL
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 6:32 PM
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Scott
2733 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:49 PM
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The rules are clear Nick.. no judge shall score anything that does not meet his standard.. the problem is when someone actualy judges by a standard... I was not the first to do so.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 6:50 PM
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George R.
237 posts
Dec 24, 2009
7:00 PM
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that Rule is good enough , If it changes I am sure there will not be as many Competitors .
But according to some they dont care if people stop flying and our Hobby's participation decreases due to stricter rules.
.
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Spin City USA
272 posts
Dec 24, 2009
9:08 PM
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Pensom was right.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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fhtfire
2356 posts
Dec 24, 2009
9:40 PM
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George...the rules are not going to be changed....they need to be defined that is all....You know as well as I do..we have these scores all over the board and the bickering over what is quality etc..because nothing is defined. Nobody is trying to change the rules....I have seen better written rules bay a 10 year old playing kick ball....Your sons play sports...pick up the pee wee football rule book....and we all know football rules...but they are still defined..matter of fact pick up any rule book worth its salt and it is a little bigger then one page on a score sheet..especially for a national competition.
Defining what quality is...defining what roll is...what is a hawk attack....etc...and as far as an axle roller..we all know they are culls plain and simple...a non kitter is a cull....and if your birds dont kit...you dont get scored...a roll down is a cull...you open the door and all your birds go up..you call time in..they break loose and two or three hit the ground...and dont return...no score....there is no difference...
If fliers quit because we dont score an axle roller so be it....and to be honest..I have only seen one axle roller and there are not to many out there....so what is all the fuss....
WOULD ANYBODY BREED FROM AN AXLE ROLLER..even if it was fast...NO ME>...I want a fast X or better.
rock and ROLL
Paul
We have to remember we cant bitch about one thing and then try and fix it and bitch about that...everyone complains about the rules not being clear and gray areas and judges making there own interpretation..why because they are not defined....so no change to the rules just defined...and you know there are enough members on the EC that the right definitions will be added.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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pigeon pete
463 posts
Dec 25, 2009
4:36 PM
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As an outsider I can't see what the problem is.
If these axelwingers are as rare as you say then it is a none issue.
To legislate in the rules about what position the wings must be in, (to score) is fraught with problems.
What about the kits, and the breaks, that the judge can only see from the side?
Cliff you wrote, among other stuff,--
If any wing position that can meet the depth and velocity standard, and if it has not faults.... can it be scored?
Well it seems to me, reading between, and on the lines, that many fanciers in this debate regard axel winger birds as faulty, and so to say an axle wing bird has no faults is a bit of a contradiction from their perspective.
I find one of the biggest problems is when a judge gets critisised for judgeing to a fairly easy standard, but doesn't give as many points as the last judge who scored everything that twitched.
Also, qualifying for a big fly with poor quality birds is misleading if the team is then judged in the final to a much higher standard.
Most flyers will understand why their birds have not been scored if the judge takes time to explain why.
Also most flyers will have at least one bird that rolls to the minimum standard, and if you say to a guy, you need to fly birds the same or better than THAT ONE then they know what to aim for. If they don't have one decent bird then tell them to get out a bit more,, half decent rollers were hard to come by, but these days it seems that there are so many good birds out there that it's hard to understand why anyone would keep rollers that are not at least Low to high X wing birds.
Best wishes,
Pete.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 6:30 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2247 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:38 PM
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Paul
While I understand your position on defining the fly rules, I think we need to consider that the possibility exists for some flyers' opinions and understanding of the fly rules to change. Whichever side we come down on while we address these issues, NOT EVERONE is going to be happy with the way the rule is defined. From that standpoint, we may have flyers that say the "rules" have changed, the rules have been dumbed down, the rules have been tightened, the rules have been loosed up. What ever is accomplished, we will not make everybody happy. Different men will see it differently depending on their perspective on things. We have the possibility that half of the flyers may think the newly-defined rule will raise the bar, while the other 50% may think we lowered the bar! This will NOT be easy or quick. We will change the rules for some flyers, no doubt. Think about it, we have NO guidance from the fly rules on many of these questions, we are dealing with nothing more, than personal opinions. And as you know, we are a varied bunch when it comes to fly rule issues. It is a very real possibility that a 50% plus 1 majority, may not be possible for some of these EC votes to support yours or my opinion. I hope I am wrong. The best we can hope for is that the changes offered up for the flyers to approve will be the best for the club's flyers as a whole. Then they will tell us if we made the right choices.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2248 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:44 PM
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Paul
You Said: " If fliers quit because we don't score an axle wing roller, so be it and to be honest, I have only seen one axle roller and there are not too many out there.... so what is all the fuss..."
Can the same be said and supported by you if the flyers were to vote to score an axle roller? For the same reasoning, what is all the fuss?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2249 posts
Dec 25, 2009
10:20 PM
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Pete
Axle wing position may well be an undesirable wing position, it may be the lowest quality wing position, but there in the minds of some flyers, whether it is truly a fault is a matter of opinion. To some it is, in their opinion, a fault. To some it is simply a low quality wing position that with enough velocity can earn an adequate Q multiplier.
If all judges saw it the same way, I doubt there would be a problem. In any rate it may be time to see if we can add some clarity to the fly rules and better define a minimum quality standard and also try to rate wing positions. It may not happen, we'll see.
If I recall, you were a member on the NBRC EC before and I bet your comments were useful to those discussions your took part in. I like to hear your comments.
Cliff
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pigeon pete
465 posts
Dec 26, 2009
6:48 AM
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Hi Cliff,
you are right I was on the EC and contributed to debate, but I never voted on any issue related to your flying rules as it would have been inapropriate, (me being a foreigner who would never be directly affected).
Yes I guess it is one of the grey areas.
Never having seen an axle wing bird as far as I am aware, I maybe shouldn't say too much, but it seems to be one of those debatable traits as to should they be scored or not.
Exiting the roll the 'wrong' way is another comparable 'fault'.
Most judges will say "Oh I would never score a bird that didn't exit the roll facing the kit".
BUT I have seen and myself bred scores of rollers that did this, and they were all scored if the rolled to a good standard.
Most judges will only notice the bird that flys away from the kit, but the vast majority of such birds do a quick twist and face the kit again and so go unnoticed. Some rules state that a bird must start and end the roll correctly but don't say what is correct, and anyway who is to say what is 'correct'.
I would certainly (and do) breed from a bird that exits in such a way after executing a perfect 20ft roll. I would choose it every time over a low x wing that exits the roll 'correctly'.
I know we all talk big about what the perfect roller should do, and any roller with any slight deviation from that standard should not be bred from, or flown in competition, or scored, or even allowed to live, but in the real world-----
Pete.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2250 posts
Dec 26, 2009
5:01 PM
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Pete
One of the things I would like to seen done, is for all written roller standards, be able to be REAL WORLD standards, birds we can see and judged with in human limitations. Like you say, but in the real world.....
Thanks,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2251 posts
Dec 26, 2009
5:15 PM
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Paul
I will expect you to do your best for the fancy, represent your region and your fair and unbiased opinion and I will do the same. My hope is that the EC can agree on a minimum quality standard, define what wing position best defines minimum lowest or least quality or least desirable quality, what ever fits your definition of poor but not that poor.
I am just not as sure as you are, that a wing position, any wing position, is automatically a fault. Just because a couple guys jump up and down and scream bloody murder and disrespect anyone who feels different than they do, does not make it so. There is nothing in the 20 bird fly rules to indicate what wing position is a fault. X wing is also a fault. Let's face it. Anything but perfect is a fault. So it is a matter of opinion where the "cull" line is drawn. Some feel that A rame wing position is a fault. We are dealing with opinions as to how critical a fault wing position is. You have also seen the opinion from a World Cup Champion, that an axel with speed is not so great a fault. These birds are meeting the basic criteria for scoreable rolling as defined in the rules and as defined by Pensom.
To rank these wing positions, we will have the most desired valued quality, down to the least desired, least valued, lowest quality. This range will have a high and a low. They can't all be the most desirable. Some wing position has to be the lowest. All we have to do is agree on what wing position is the lowest quality to still be scoreable. You have your opinion and I have mine. We have master flyers who have demonstrated that even they have different opinions on this issue. I can be swayed if the discussion can show me which minimum quality standard is best for the NBRC flyers. I am good with what ever that may be.
I think, that if most of us can remain focused, on what is best for the NBRC flyers, and put our personal biases aside, the EC can reach the right decision. My only concern is to arrive a decision that will benefit the NBRC flyers by defining the range of scoreable wing positions. I feel sure you want the same thing.
I will bet you, that each and every breed of show animals you are familiar with, has a written list of minimal qualities, above which, the animal will be scored? The NBRC flyers need that too. With your help, the NBRC flyers will get that range of scoreable wing positions.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 5:18 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2252 posts
Dec 26, 2009
5:23 PM
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Paul
You said: " most top breeders would be embarrassed to enter a competition with an undesirable trait." I agree! But you are talking about an individual that is a TOP BREEDER. How many of those do we have in the NBRC?
If the decision is made to score Axle rollers or "X" rollers do you think it will cause any TOP FLYER to suddenly start breeding for low quality rollers? Add to that argument that there are so few being judged in kits, that if every axle roller got scored BY MISTAKE, there would be no difference what so ever (IMHO) in the ranking of the top 30 kits. I am not one bit worried about the breeders with the top kits being influenced by what ever the least, lowest, bottom of the barrel quality standard is. Also, a whole kit of least quality rollers should NEVER beat a kit of high quality, deep rollers, and will never unless the good uns are mis-managed. I just don't see that happening.
WE need a range of standards that will accommodate the high standards of top flyers, as well as, entry level backyard flyers. There are all kinds of things we can do encourage the new flyers and back yard flyers. We don't have say lower the standards but a "different set of standards." The health of our flying hobby rests with the way we encourage NEW FLYERS and the they we recognize those who support the TOP FLYERS.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2253 posts
Dec 26, 2009
5:24 PM
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Paul
If the NBRC can define if any wing position is a fault, that will help.
If the NBRC can define that the BR is best known for its speed and depth, it will help.
If the NBRC can rank the acceptable and score-able wing positions, it will help.
If the judges will judge all birds that meet the NBRC standards, it will help.
The NBRC will not tell any flyer how to breed or what his standards should be. We are only concerned in recognizing the best kits in the NBRC. WE can do this by setting depth, velocity and quality standards that all flyers and judges understand in the evaluation of kit competition.
Cliff
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Scott
2740 posts
Dec 26, 2009
5:26 PM
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Cliff.. you have one not all that seasoned flyer on another list faulting a A style..my guess is he has never seen one..as for the corn cob axel roller few take it out of cull status and all consider it the bottom of the barrel..all I see here is some trying to get the others (you included) to accept and score this garbage (I wonder why that is)..personaly I will never be swayed to score these culls...and I can assure you that I am not alone.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 5:46 PM
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