Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1241 posts
May 18, 2008
3:20 PM
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Ty.I am not very good at wording things so as to understand what I am try to say but I am going to try and say this as simple as I know how.
The Birmingham Roller as a Breed along with all its colors was imported to the USA many years before Pensom came on the scene.
Someone who eludes me right now went to England to visit with Pensom and talked him into coming back to the USA to teach the Americans how to breed and manage the Birmingham Roller.He did and finally moved here and imported some of the best rollers that he could lay his hands on back to the USA.And yes I have read where he took some of what was already here back to England.
We already had the Birmingham Rollers here.
Now if we start cutting off the time period with Pensom Imports we start a whole new ballgame. David
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Scott
602 posts
May 18, 2008
3:32 PM
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Dave, true ,some of the imports were sent over by Pensom prior to him coming over,Smith and father Shaleton (sp) rings a bell.
I would doubt seriously that any "American Roller" blood or even Wittinghams would have been part of it.
The thing is though is that there are a few far more knowledgable about this stuff than any of us here or what is written here.
LaRon comes to mind as one of them and his input would be very interesting.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1242 posts
May 18, 2008
5:11 PM
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I am thinking that Laron and Tom Monson is saving all thier little tidbits of info for their new books that I hope soon comes out.LOL. David
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sippi
266 posts
May 18, 2008
5:50 PM
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Scott you named eight men who liked pure. J Leroy Smith played with Oriental crosses. I will find that when I figure out whether it is in my Oriental stuff, my Fireball stuff, or my Birmingham stuff.
Then you have Bob Evans who has been accused of passing off birds all over the U.S. with fake "Pensom" pedigrees. So very few lofts are left un-tainted whether by design or by accident.
Reduced mutated in this country and stands that it wouldnt show up in other countries unless exported. Also the Birms in England dont look like the "pure Pensoms" in this country no more than the color birds do. The only thing here that resembles the birds of England are the pure Whittingham lines.
Imagine that!!!!
Sippi
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Scott
608 posts
May 18, 2008
6:06 PM
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Scott you named eight men who liked pure. J Leroy Smith played with Oriental crosses. I will find that when I figure out whether it is in my Oriental stuff, my Fireball stuff, or my Birmingham stuff.
(Sippi, I never heard that, but I wouldn't stake my life that he didn't experment with it either, did he run it through his family of birds ? No ,as it would serve no purpose and he had no reason to falsify breeding records as he was a flyer, he was also a heavy inbreeder.
Then you have Bob Evans who has been accused of passing off birds all over the U.S. with fake "Pensom" pedigrees. So very few lofts are left un-tainted whether by design or by accident.
( I didn't mention Evens because he was known as a show guy and not a flyer,I don't know of anyone flying Evens birds , they were the so called duel purpose)
Reduced mutated in this country and stands that it wouldnt show up in other countries unless exported. Also the Birms in England dont look like the "pure Pensoms" in this country no more than the color birds do. The only thing here that resembles the birds of England are the pure Whittingham lines.
(big folder coming your way,
The bulk of the color birds don't look like any breed in station type or expression , I don't care what color you paint them,everything is off, the only ones that do are certain Andys, and I have seen some good Andys)
Imagine that!!!! ( obviously they are all flying American Rollers over then from "our" imoprts , imagine that LOL)
Sippi
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1768 posts
May 18, 2008
6:12 PM
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Scott,
Read the excerpt from Spurlings book. Looks like to me during the 40`s most of the rollers in the USA were all melded into the ABR. The West site quoted is a flying west site. There are still west performance contests,call your buddy Brian and talk to him about it. He has won the national show, and he still flies some of his wests.
Almost any "pure" line has to be imported since about 1950.
I think you just dont want to concede the point you might have some mutts in your loft just like the rest of us.
How ya like that Scotty boy? lol
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V99
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Scott
609 posts
May 18, 2008
6:28 PM
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Yea Kenny, "every one" got together and said " hey lets play a cruel joke on future generations and breed in these crappy American Rollers that aint worth a shit into all the new imports" makes pefect sence to me Kenny LOL.
As for Spurling ,do a google on him.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 7:07 PM
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ezeedad
540 posts
May 18, 2008
6:57 PM
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Tony,
Seems that there is no end to this... Every answer leads to multiple new questions. No way of keeping this simple...
Gomez
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rollerman132
285 posts
May 18, 2008
10:39 PM
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I guess any thing goes now, might as well go out and get some other breed that’s toy stencil, and cross them in with my sparks birds, being that it doesn’t matter any more lol. One article that can’t even be verified and everyone is jumping on the color wagons, give me a brake lol.
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Ty Coleman
291 posts
May 19, 2008
4:12 AM
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Paul i agree.This will never end, but at least we "as the roller community" took a step forward and not backwords.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2525 posts
May 19, 2008
5:20 AM
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Look, Paul and Ty, these guys can deny what's in front of them all they want (the Karp article), but unless they can actually produce some historical document or similar evidence that would directly refute the Karp document, prove it is a fake or forgery, they haven't said anything at all.
This is a document published in "Pigeons Of England" in 1930, not hearsay that is confused by the passage of time and by the later selective breeding for myriad of personally preferred traits by more and more fanciers after the documents original publish date: March 20, 1930.
All the color stuff that followed has nothing to do with the substance of the claims of the article.
I am just watching all the "strawman" arguments being created that don't address the substance of the article.
I am tempted to remove all the strawman posts and their related responses. If I did that, I think all we will have then are the posts that indicate that they agree with the original post!
Gotta learn to keep your eye on the ball.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
611 posts
May 19, 2008
8:43 AM
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Tony,as for the Karp artical , I found it interesting and in no way shape or form am I debating it,as I simply don't know.
It is the other stuff that was purely speculation and that makes no sence that I was questioning.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 9:08 AM
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dmitch
72 posts
May 19, 2008
8:55 AM
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It is still some pure import around from the Pemsom import but it is just a very few with them.I no of five people that birds go back to the o/g import they birds only come in a few colors.
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rollerman132
286 posts
May 19, 2008
11:11 AM
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How does this thread solve the color issue? We all know that the Birmingham Roller was created from other breeds of tumblers. You would think that that after a few decades the Birmingham roller would have gain the status of an established breed. So you found article that says that the Birmingham roller was created from the west of england’s. all this article does is confirming the fact that the Birmingham roller was a created breed. Should this article give us all the green light to start polluting the gene poll, by crossing birds of a different breed to get the color that we like? Even Pensom states in his book that the Birmingham Roller was a created breed. Sounds like the color breeder are looking for some type of document, that giving them permission to destroy the work of those that created the breed. Now they want purists to come up with a document to prove that the Birmingham wasn’t a created breed, does a document like that even exist?Now that you found you holy grail,do as you want with your birds I wont stop you, hell I won’t stop you from eating a piece of crap, if that what you want to do.Stick that straw in your pipe and smoke it. Duane
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Scott
612 posts
May 19, 2008
11:34 AM
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Dang Duane, I don't even know you and I like you already LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2527 posts
May 19, 2008
11:57 AM
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hehehehe, Duane, I think you are reading more into it than I intended, you seem upset. I will respond to your post later when I have some more time. hehehehe
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
545 posts
May 19, 2008
12:15 PM
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Duane,
I don't understanding what you are saying. What is a created breed?
The breed was made by artificial selection. By breeding best to best in succeeding generations with the goal of improving, or at least maintaining the highest standard possible.
I think that the real grudge began when some of these unusual colors were crossed into rollers. The first crosses were crap, but some of them were being promoted as Birmingham Rollers. But this was thirty or forty years ago. We all should know to breed best to best. There are now apparently some great spinning unusual colors.
But there will always be guys who want to make something different. You or I can't stop them.
Paul G
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rollerman132
287 posts
May 19, 2008
12:55 PM
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Ezeedad
If you are where amazed by that article, where have you been hiding? Shit, I knew that when I first started raising rollers. The burdened of proof lies with color camp, where is the document that says that adding color from some other breed will improve the rolling ability of the Birmingham roller? Duane
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rollerman132
288 posts
May 19, 2008
1:04 PM
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Ezeedad
The only one I see clenching at straws is the color breeders. They find an article that the says the Birmingham roller was made by artificial selection, and it gives them right to say its ok to pollute the gene poll, what a joke!
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 1:05 PM
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Ballrollers
1250 posts
May 19, 2008
1:26 PM
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Gentlemen,
I see that some of you have been very busy over the weekend, while I was flying pigeons! I applaud those of you who are searching for the answers to these questions, by researching the literature, rather than relying, strictly, on someone else's opinions. It's easy to TALK a convincing story. However, the providing of evidence of the truth in the story is where the rubber meets the road and will always separate the chaff from the wheat in the end. The additional information that Kenny and Tony have presented supports what I have been saying for many years, after conducting my own research on the issue...that yes, we do have a breed in the BR.....one with a broad history of crossing into other breeds over many years......and one that has a broad gentic diversity in its background that includes many feather types and colors. Many sub-strains or families have been cultivated and developed over the years, and the arguments between the men who developed them, has been creating bad blood between roller men for a century. I believe that any roller man who tries to assert that only HIS particular sub-strain or family is the Pure Birmingham Roller is bound to invite the wrath of others, as it has always been. It is clear that the men with this agenda, today, will continue to ignore these facts and persist in their point of view. Be that as it may, my hat's off to you guys for doing your homework.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1251 posts
May 19, 2008
1:38 PM
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Paul,
Nobody is recommending breed outcrossing. If you think that is what this discussion is all about, you have missed the point entirely. Go back and re-read it. It's about accepting the broad genetic background of the BR, which you agree is a fact, and the birds that perform as defined as the True Birmingham Roller. Those who want to make a case for their's being Pure Birmingham Rollers, whatever that may be, can have at it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 5:32 AM
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Ballrollers
1252 posts
May 19, 2008
1:41 PM
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Kenny, Tony,
What am I reading suggests to me that there are several different strains or varieties of Birmingham Rollers relative to their distinct backgrounds or locations. Pensom referred to the TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER, and gave rise to the definition based on performance; and not which strain, variety or family it was from.
That performance definition is still used to this date.
Let's think for just a minute, where this color debate is primarily found. There is no mention of it in any NBRC bylaw, constitution or fly rule. There is no mention of it in the WC bylaw, constitution or fly rule. I have seen no indication of it in any local city, regional or state clubs. The one place this controversy takes place, more than any other, is within the confines of the on-line discussion groups. And if we look at the entire numbers of these discussion groups, only a fraction takes part in these discussions. To me, that says this color debate, holds little interest for a large majority of Roller breeders. BECAUSE... a large majority of Roller breeders are primarily interested in PERFORMANCE. Who speaks for the silent majority?
Cliff
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ezeedad
548 posts
May 19, 2008
1:45 PM
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"Ezeedad
If you are where amazed by that article, where have you been hiding? Shit, I knew that when I first started raising rollers."
Duane... Hell, I'm not amazed.. AT ALL..!! Where did you get that idea..?
......0000000..........
"The burdened of proof lies with color camp, where is the document that says that adding color from some other breed will improve the rolling ability of the Birmingham roller?"
Duane... Who could be dumb enough to say that,,?? Where do you get these ideas??
........000000.........
"Ezeedad,
The only one I see clenching at straws is the color breeders. They find an article that the says the Birmingham roller was made by artificial selection.
Duane... All breeds made by man are made by artificial selection. If it is not natural selection (survival of the fittest)..then it is artificial. that's all that that means.
"and it gives them right to say its ok to pollute the gene pool, what a joke!"
All I said is that you can't stop them.. Can you??
Paul G
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ezeedad
549 posts
May 19, 2008
2:03 PM
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Cliff,
I clearly understand that none of us is advocating breed outcrossing... Really, I get it.. But I am acknowledging that it has taken place in the past.
Also, I am personally accepting of a broad, more inclusive definition of the BR, based primarily on an aerial standard. But I also see value of keeping strains pure, as well as crossing strains.. LOL...
If I had all the time in the world, I would probably fly 6 or 7 strains... Including my own.. I don't think I would cross any of them either..
Paul G
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 2:12 PM
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rollerman132
289 posts
May 19, 2008
4:09 PM
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Paul,
I’m not personally attacking you for what you said; everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Just because they used more then one breed to create the Birmingham roller, doesn’t make it ok to cross in other breeds for color alone, and your right I cant stop them, but I don’t have to put up with it either. I cant see where this article from the past, is a means to an end. For those that have seen the light of this article, please in light us all, on how this article ties in to the color issue. Duane
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ezeedad
551 posts
May 19, 2008
4:41 PM
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Duane,
The Karp article is not about outcrossing. It is about how some breeders took birds from the same pool of birds and bred them for roll, while others that wanted a longer flying breed took the high flying, seldom and short tumblers. So one type of pigeon became 2 different breeds because of the selections made by the breeders..
Paul G
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George R.
701 posts
May 19, 2008
5:12 PM
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Paul
and the point is ? (a) It's ok to cross breed for Color. (b) The Birmingham Roller was created by useing several breeds , so it's ok if you want to cross it with a Ice pigeon.
Help me out here Paul what is the point of telling everyone something we already new (that all breeds were created by crossing breeds)
Is it to justify having some freak project in the Back yard?
Since my Pitbull was created by crossing a Bulldog at one time , should I be looking for another Bulldog to mate it to?
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 5:15 PM
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Ty Coleman
293 posts
May 19, 2008
6:42 PM
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Guys im a self educated man as you can probably tell by my spelling but even i got this one, let me try to break this one down if the WOE and the Birmingham were Derived from the same crossings and the WOE have a color standard which includes all of the so calles rare colors in the Birmingham breed that means they are not rare, 2+2=4.I think my math adds up.No one is saying cross breed theres no need, the colors are in their background already.Lets not chase our tails.If this can be discredited with factual writings let see it.If not lets not speculate.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
614 posts
May 19, 2008
7:28 PM
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Ty , get Turners tape on genetics and it will show you how its done , they were not in the breed already.
If you want to chase your tail try working a line off of say a pencel or toy stencel,they can't stand on thier own,it is just to big of a turd in the gene pool.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 7:38 PM
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rollerman132
290 posts
May 19, 2008
7:37 PM
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TY
That’s problem, it’s not in the background!
Paul
I got the part where the Birmingham roller supposedly evolved from the west of englands, that’s a no brainier. I can live with the fact that Birmingham roller started of as a west of england. What I want to know is how is this article relevant to solving the color debate? The mutt theory just doesn’t cut it for me. Some one better come up with a better reason for crossing in ice pigeons for their color.
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Electric-man
1604 posts
May 19, 2008
7:38 PM
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I have that tape somewhere, I will dig around for it!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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ezeedad
552 posts
May 19, 2008
7:58 PM
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Duane,
I guess we are agreeing after all. I don't see any reason to cross outside of the breed, personally for myself. Although I did have a project to produce almonds..thirty some years ago. But I only used rollers.
Now I'm at the point where I won't use anything other than my own family, and I haven't crossed outside of my own family for well obver twenty years.
In my opinion, most new guys don't have any feeling about such a thing as responsibility towards the breed. They are excited and trying to learn so much. I remember guys trying to cross parlors on rollers. I think I had a half parlor or two when I started. I read just yesterday that some of the earlier roller breeders were trying that same kind of cross and I was surprised..
Paul
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Ty Coleman
295 posts
May 19, 2008
8:27 PM
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Scott, you always harp on the video Cliff has told you before that was a side project and completly culled after a few years.I asked James myself and he told me the same thing and he is a man of his word!!!!!!!!! that project never left his loft at all now thats that get off it.As for Pencil it is conciderd a maggie in england so argue the english with that one.And i will not argure toy stencil or frill stencil because they arnt in the background of the breed that i can find .Just because Pensom did not have some of the colors we see in his loft that does not discredit the color as not being a Birmingham it just shows its not the Pensom strain.Im gonna take Tony's saying here and call you a stick man as for no where in the topic of this thread was pencil or stencil mentioned in it. Read it Scott then Read it again maybee it will sink in before long---youre a smart guy it shouldnt take long.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
296 posts
May 19, 2008
8:30 PM
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Duanne--Scott this article is not about cross breeding.The little places Tony put in the post that say click here will show the reasoning behind the thread guys.I get it so thats all that matters i reckon,Thanks Tony and Kenny, at least you guys educated one dummie lol me.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 8:38 PM
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Velo99
1773 posts
May 19, 2008
8:40 PM
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Hey Scotty,
How come every time you get involved in a discussion it always ends up with a turd in the gene pool or toy stencil or pencil or whatever the heck it is. That was kinda funny once. I dont know of anyone who is breeding stencils pencils sharpies or magic markers. Everyone here is breeding rollers. We all love our rollers and want them to perform in the proper manner and this constant drumming on color or markings is kinda inane and childish.
Let me clue you in on something bro, No one gives a shit!
You can harp on it all day long and if a guy wants to breed for purple crested long tailed rollers he is going to and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.
Best advice you can give a guy is buy good stock from a reputable breeder and let it go, just let it go.
You possess a wealth of knowledge about this little freaky bird. You could really help out a lot people on this forum. You are pretty well spoken and have a good wit. BE POSITIVE bro.
Even though you finally managed to piss me off, I still respect you and what you have accomplished.
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V99
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rollerman132
291 posts
May 19, 2008
8:45 PM
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Ty
I know its not about cross breeding, it’s about how the Birmingham roller came to be according to Karp’s. Can you or anyone tell me how this article ends the color debate?
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sippi
268 posts
May 19, 2008
8:53 PM
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It is a documented fact that Parlor roller was crossed into the Birms by at least one breeder in past days.
I think we all agree that Pencil and Toy Stencil cant be found in todays rollers as naturally occuring color patterns. Unless rose wing is the same as toy stencil???? I dont know that answer yet.
But here are some excerpts from an article on the colors of Birmingham Rollers in Birmingham England in 1929. Written by Dietz while in England.
"Dietz enumerates selfs in black, red, yellows, duns, whites, almonds, blues, and silvers. He also mentions white flights, whitetails, beards, badges, baldheads, saddles, and bell necks. ........ Birminghams also occur in spangles, mottles, grizzles, checkers, duns, mealies, rosewing, and whitesides. The colors are unimportant and these numerous colors have been obtained through the mating of selected good performers regardless of thier plumage."
Note that "dun" in those days was what brown birds were called. Pensom called it brown in later times. Pensoms influence is what has omitted the color from many lofts in this country and evidently was not practiced in the country of origin. Pensom preached a "hard to soft" color mating practice which eliminates everything by ash red and blue/black eventually.
It might also be noted that performance deteriorated in many lofts due to this practice and Pensom himself went back and imported light colored birds to bring back performance. I think the imports came from Ollie Harris if I am not mistaken.
Sippi
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Velo99
1774 posts
May 19, 2008
9:00 PM
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Rollerman,
Go back ,click the links read the articles,close your eyes and think deeply about what I am gonna explain to you.
The majority,thats most of them, of the English tumblers,thats England,east across the Atlantic not America,have a common ancestry,that means they are all cousins. The Birmingham Roller is one of these breeds. Its a cousin. Only difference in any of them is or was .....repeat after me,slowly ......selective breeding.
Rollers were tumblers,tipplers were tumblers and tumblers are still tumblers. Get it now?
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 9:02 PM
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Scott
615 posts
May 19, 2008
9:07 PM
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Sippi , Rose Wing is Rec Red Mottles, many moult in heavy white on the wingButts after the adult molt.
Crossing palors makes no sence to me (although I did it as a kid)as birds with no control are as easy to breed as stiffs are through selection, as long as the roll is there of coarse,not saying it wasn't done, just makes no sence.
As for soft to hard colors , it is nothing more than balancing charactor, charactor type tends to follow hard and soft colors,in my birds the smokey is the soft side,which I do pay attention to in my matings.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
616 posts
May 19, 2008
9:10 PM
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(The majority,thats most of them, of the English tumblers,thats England,east across the Atlantic not America,have a common ancestry,that means they are all cousins. The Birmingham Roller is one of these breeds. Its a cousin. Only difference in any of them is or was .....repeat after me,slowly ......selective breeding.
Rollers were tumblers,tipplers were tumblers and tumblers are still tumblers. Get it now)
Kenny, never ever was that in question, no one that I know thinks that they just crawled out from underneth a rock, what breed did ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
292 posts
May 19, 2008
9:14 PM
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Velo99
Now its my turn to talk to you slowly………I already ……know that. I knew this debate was just another smoke screen LOL
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Velo99
1775 posts
May 19, 2008
9:16 PM
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Scott,
Then why are we still discussing color? With the vast gene pool the BR possesses anything is possible. I think the only rule is breed for performance and the cool paint jobs will follow. If ya dont like the color get another BR from a good guy and voila` a completely new canvas to paint on.
I wonder if I can get flames?
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 9:17 PM
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Scott
617 posts
May 19, 2008
9:18 PM
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(It might also be noted that performance deteriorated in many lofts due to this practice and Pensom himself went back and imported light colored birds to bring back performance. I think the imports came from Ollie Harris if I am not mistaken. )
I think he died right at this time Sippi, could be wrong, I think that many lofts with the reputation of Pensom "stiffs" came from pedigree breeding off of the ground and for the showroom.
There are also lofts that strictly performance bred which we mainly see the decendants of today, as the shows have gone by the wayside and it is now a "put em up" and fly em mentality,talking about how good birds are no longer work.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
293 posts
May 19, 2008
9:24 PM
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Well it was nice, even though it didn’t go any where, maybe next time, I’m out of here.
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Scott
618 posts
May 19, 2008
9:26 PM
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(With the vast gene pool the BR possesses anything is possible.)
Kenny , because it is a set breed and not that vast and has been set for a breed for some time, never will you get a strange color out of the main lofts in this country or out of this country.
You can't get what isn't there , inbreed inbreed inbreed and still nothing strange unless there is a turd floating around in it from another breed crossed in, that is because it is a set breed.
But then I'm talking pure pensom imports, if there is American Roller or something else crossed in from color breeders or questionable lofts then who knows what can be found through inbreeding.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 9:32 PM
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Velo99
1776 posts
May 19, 2008
9:29 PM
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Who is getting strange colors? Not me.
Anyone else? Seems we`ve been arguing semantics and what could be rather than whats really out there.
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Velo99
1777 posts
May 19, 2008
9:31 PM
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Rollerman,
Smoke screen for what? I am confused. I have been enlightened as a few of us have by this connection and deeper understanding of the origins of the BR. I no longer feel the need to pound my chest and posture about the purity of the breed.
I know what I do in MY program. Breed kickass BR`s straight up no chaser.
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 19, 2008 9:50 PM
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rollerman132
294 posts
May 19, 2008
10:51 PM
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Velo99
Smoke screens are used to hide behind, and boy did the color breeders hide behind that article. I’m glade you found what you were looking for, can’t say the same for my self. No hard feelings here man, just putting my two cents in.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2528 posts
May 20, 2008
3:21 AM
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Hey Rollerman, 2 weeks ago I was sitting right where you are. Plain and simple. I learned that one argues for what one knows.
When one broadens his horizons, more comes into view and learning has occurred, that you do not understand the conclusions made in the article, only points to my inability to teach it to you. No shame in not being able to grasp a new concept that changes your paradigm.
I like the saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". That you are not following the train of thought merely means you are not ready (or I am not explaining myself very well).
I myself have argued endlessly FOR the BR BEING A BREED just as hard as any one else on All Roller Talk. But genetically, we CANNOT PROVE IT! Well, that "need to know", wanting answers that satisfy my intellect persists in me and then to tell it to the world.
Reason and thinking requires effort and the risk of being wrong or run the risk of finding out that what you thought you knew is not true after all. Thinking is not for everyone, but I highly recommend it.
For me the quest was to prove to the "color" breeders who claim that to call a bird a Birmingham Roller is to merely describe a bird’s high quality rolling ability, that the BR is an actual “breed” of animal.
That’s why the article written by Karp in 1930 which was posted by Paul becomes so important, it allows those of us with limited documentation or just the “knowledge of tradition” of the popular thought, a method to proving the point.
The findings we made using this document as our "key", our holy grail as I think you called it, explained what I originally thought was true; that the BR IS a breed of its own.
If you will refrain from the knee-jerk reaction, and THINK about it, you will find that this original post was designed to correct the thinking and conclusions of color breeders who call the True Birmingham Roller nothing but a performance description for a bird that is NOT A BREED!
So, to protect the breed from mongrelization, it gives YOU more evidence to prove your point that the Birmingham Roller is REALLY a breed rather than be side-tracked by the arguments of some color-breeders (not all) who would use it as an excuse to cross-breed.
The phrase “True Birmingham Roller” is actually meant to describe the standard within the breed, NOT a performance description that for some justifies adding any old bird to the mix to see what you get and call it “rare”.
I apologize that I could not teach you anything that would help you defend the Birmingham Roller as a breed. But you are going to have to come up with something a little more substantial than being able to play dumb, shout louder and longer or talk about turds in the gene-pool (Scott?) to persuade thinking men and women.
Go back and read it again. Starting to see it?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 3:23 AM
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flo
125 posts
May 20, 2008
4:46 AM
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Tony,
With the article in our face. Do you think it is possible to "re-create" the roller from scratch. Using the "true Birmingham Roller" as a standard can we take so & so pure blooded different pigeons and try to re-create it? For example, using a pure tippler with a pure OR and so on and try to perfect a "True" roller that is the equivalent to that of a "True Birmingham Roller". If possible, how long do you think it will take....as it took centuries and decades and even now days we are trying to perfect the "True BR"? Just a question since you guys brought up the history/trait of where the "BR" may have originated from. I am sure it will take a smart well dedicated pigeon person and a lot of trial and error to recreate the "True" roller to meet that "True BR standard". I think if it can be done now days, we can have evidence or documents that can be used like a formular to create the perfect "Breed" of aerial performers. Just a question of mind.
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FLO
www.blacked-out-loft.webs.com
SAKTOWN, KALI4NIA
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