fhtfire
1370 posts
May 22, 2008
11:58 AM
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Cliff
P.10 bottom of page. The PERFECT ROLLER by WHP
"In regard to livestock it is said there is nothing perfect under the sun, and I am compelled to say that the perfect roller does NOT exist, but when I mention the perfect roller, I REFER ENTIRELY TO THE ROLL AND NOT THE PIGEON. IF type COLOR, MARKINGS, and intermediate performing qualities were STANDARDIZED, however, I should readily admit that it is IMPOSSIBLE to produce a perfect BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. Be that as it may, a perfect roll is one that is created at a maximum speed in a straight line downward and looking like a small ball speeding toward earth with ba small hole through the center. Naturally , this performance is the goal of all roller breeders, but even so, a bird capable of rolling perfectly for a considerable distance is by no means a champion."
These dots lead me to an opinion that makes me think WHP did not want a color standard. A champion True Birmingham Roller is an INDIVIDUAL that is rare to behold, not a cookie cutter critter and cannot be mass produced.
You are right..he did not want anybody to look at the color of the bird for performance..you look at the bird only...duh.....why would you want a color standard back then......no need...if you breed for performance only..you do not need a color standard...if you breed for a pretty color..and bring in a new color then you are forced to make a color standard.....because the new color was crossed...the cross is not a birmingham roller and woudl not meet the standard..and should not be bred from...so if you follow the rules from the begining and breed strictly birds that roll fast, tight etc etc like a spinning ball..there is no need for a color standard if you do it right from the very begining...cross breeding is the very reason we may need a standard....
Back then the boys followed the roll...and the performance..if you do that..then no need for a standard for color....color of the pigeon is irrelevent....if everyone follows the rules....because a blue check that is rolling hard..is no different then a baldy or lavender..etc.....you will just breed these kick ass birds together and continue the cycle of keeping the breed pure....bring in another breed..like an archangel (example)...and make a new color...well then...you may need a standard that eliminates the cross color...but if you followed the performance standard in the first place of a birmingham roller...the achangel would never mount a birmingham....why...becuase it does not meet the standard...it does not ROLL....so you are right...no need for a standard back then...there were not that many knuckle heads letting "project birds" out of there back yard....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2544 posts
May 22, 2008
12:08 PM
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ping ping ping ping...dots connecting...mystery being solved...each reader has to conceptualize the process and synapses connect.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Ballrollers
1267 posts
May 22, 2008
12:11 PM
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Paul F
I asked a question to Tony "Now, as of what date, can we say that all these Dutch Tumblers/Wests of England/ Birmingham Rollers were actually documented as to all the genetic factors they possess? I am speaking of Dom Opal, Reduced, Toy Stencil, Brown, Barless, etc......" I didn't get an answer because I don't really believe that it can be DOCUMENTED that all these factors were in the Birmingham Roller 100 years ago. The genetic knowledge may have not been available for the BR flyer to be able to identify it, even if it was there....100 years ago. And sadly, that is even true today.
I believe the genetic texts when they tell us that a factor may be introduced to a breed and through a series of steps that takes years, the finished animal can be considered genetically pure as the animal that received the factor 6-10 generations ago. There for, a mutt BR can be considered genetically pure as a NON MUTT.
Now I know you will not accept that explanation, but that is my opinion. I accept your opinion of what you choose to believe.....so please, accept mine.
I know that someone crossed some breed of bird with the toy stencil factors into a roller many years ago, 10-20-30? And how many generations later? And today Toy Stencil rollers can perform well enough to earn the title of a True Birmingham Roller. Are they pure, meaning was this factor in the imports? I don't really think it was, but if it was, it was probably just not identified.
If we want to talk about performance rollers, true Birmingham Rollers...of any color....that's fine by me. If we want to argue 'till the goats and sheep go to pasture, about color birds and whether they can spin with the best of them; should we call them this or that....well, that's fine too.
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2545 posts
May 22, 2008
12:15 PM
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Hey Cliff, I will get back to you on this...this got past me...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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fhtfire
1371 posts
May 22, 2008
12:29 PM
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David...
Number 6 is saying it needs to meet the standard...but pan down....then it say PURBRED...for True.....so you are right...the bird should meet the standard...and be PURE....it is there in black and white...they are one in the same.
True....in animal husbandry in Purebred....so they are one in the same...to be true is to breed pure.....
rock and roll Paul
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 12:31 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1256 posts
May 22, 2008
12:38 PM
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Paul F. Yes it does.Same word with many different meanings.
Now let me ask you a question.
If our region invited you to come judge our Fall Fly and you come into my backyard and after shaking hands and exchanging pleasentrys I put my kit of 11 birds up to fly.
In my kit I put up 9 Tipplers and 1 Opal Br and 1 Toy Stencil BR.The Opal and the Toy Stencil each rolled once per minute during the 20 minutes alloted.Would you score these 2 rollers? If so Why? David
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fhtfire
1372 posts
May 22, 2008
12:41 PM
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Cliff,
I agree..there is no way to prove when what was what because of no writing...the fact is..we can all use our common sense..the Birmingham roller is a breed..plain and simple....or how about an undocumented breed.....it is still a breed....if it was not...I would only have a handfull of birds that actually rolled.....99% of my bird roll...of that 90 maybe 10% make the stock loft...that is a PERFECT specimin that meets the standard....out of the 89% left...hell 60% could make awesome team birds....then another 20% can't hold up..but still roll..either not consitent..ect..ect...culls....still put on a good show..but clear the perches for next year..if it was not a breed...you would get maybe 10% that even flipped.
Now for the rare colors...you have to be kidding....that a toy stencil..."may not have been identified" in the old days...Cliff...I am not talking about little modifiers this and that...I am talking about the colors that were crossed in with another breed..plain and simple...hell you have an in with some of the guys that started the whole mess....ask them..or use your knowledge...tell me right now..what colors do you know for a fact were crossed in....I am not talking about..well it was documented by this ONE guy who said he found an opal lace whatever...I am talking about the colors that were crossed....Toy Stencil, Barless, white bar??..etc..the colors that you had to work years to get the birds to perform like a bimingham..tell me those and then case is closed..we will all be on the same page....
No smoke and mirrors..no lies..not hiding behind little straw action figure...I am talking straight up..man to man....you name the colors and we will all agree...This has nothing to do with birds that meet the standard now after years of breeding back to pure...give it to me...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2546 posts
May 22, 2008
12:57 PM
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Shaun
606 posts
May 22, 2008
1:16 PM
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Cliff, you said: "You indicated that the English BR enthusiast was none to interested in all the pretty colors that interested the show bird men...It seems logical to assume that with this dislike of show bird colors (If they were all present and identified at this time), the men who chose to breed for performance only, these men chose only certain colors that would not have any connection to the show birds and they did this WITHOUT regard of performance seen in birds of color."
It's a good theory, but too sophisticated. The fact is that most pigeon guys over here either kept racing pigeons or fancy pigeons. Racers has always been big business, where colours mean squat. I recall in 1972 buying some birds from the loft of a guy at work who was packing up. As he related how far each bird had returned from in a race, all I could see were blues, reds and mealys.
Many roller guys would have kept racers, either before they got into rollers, or as well as. It wasn't so much a case of them avoiding rollers with colours more associated with show birds; it was the fact that performance was everything and colour just didn't enter into the equation. The guys just worked with whatever colours and patterns were there in the birds which performed and bred best and, as I've discussed here, there wasn't much of this to choose from in the UK. It remains the same today.
Shaun
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fhtfire
1373 posts
May 22, 2008
1:58 PM
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First off...yes it is a word with many different meanings..that is why it says "Animal Husbandry" before purbred in the TRUE definition....Raising rollers is animal husbandry...of course there are many meaning to words...but True meand purebred..
ok
If you had tipplers....no I would not allow those birds.......because they are not rollers......I would subtract them from the kit like I would if they were racing homers. To be honest with you.....at this point in time...there is no color standard..so by the rules of the NBRC...I would judge your colored birds because they meet the standard....of the roll....but that is not the argument..I know that some colored birds roll.....that is fine...I had an andy I would put up against any bird in my loft....so as the rules are stated I would judge them...as a judge I have to put my beliefs aside...now would I buy that bird from you even if it was the best bird I had ever seen..nope...even if you gave it to me....would I say it was a purebred roller nope....I would follow the rules...currenty there are not guidlines or documented proof about a bird...not registration...but it is up to the judges discretion and if I was a Genetics expert..like some...I could say....pull those birds..this is a Birmingham roller fly and those are not...but again..I do not have the backing to make that decision if I was challenged...but the point is not if the colored birds meet the standard...that is all fine...meeting a standard does not make a bird that breed.....that is what the whole argument is about....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1268 posts
May 22, 2008
2:13 PM
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Paul F
Straight up? I got birds of color, they have had these rare factors for decades, they have performed for decades. The Rules of this fancy have no color standards. Did you read this NO COLOR STANDARDS. I am following rules as they are written. I am using WHP as my reference to base my understanding on, that a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER has no set color or marking as long as it performs to standard.
Sorry this does not conform to your understanding but it suits me just fine. Your opinions are not written rules of this fancy. It is strictly your opinion and not mine. But no problem because you are a stand up kinda guy.
I have never disputed that the Birmingham Roller is a breed. Where did you get that idea? Infact I stated very clearly on several posts that I blieve that it is...a breed that is distinguished by its ability to roll. Roll that has nothing to do with its feather pigments.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1269 posts
May 22, 2008
2:25 PM
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Paul F
I don't recall ever indicating that rare factors were "ALWAYS" in the BR. I have merely tried to open people's minds to the broad genetic diversity of this breed, and to the fact that in the old days, pigeon men knew very little about the identification of factors. (By the way, Toy Stencil, as I understand it, in order to be expressed properly, requires just the right combination of a number of modifers that have been identified.) Tfhe point is that we have no proof...no proof of history.... no proof of purity....no scientifc basis....no basis for the criticism of color birds as mongrels.
I do not dispute that, over the years, many of the uncommon factors have been added, and genetically, properly added to a roller and if that roller can spin to meet the standard .... It can be now be called a True Birmingham Roller.
I asked Scott where did Grizzle come from? All these colors and factors did not spring from the ground and form a Birmingham Roller. Why was Tippler Print Grizzle added to the Birmingham? Do you know? I don't either...for sure...NOR DO I CARE. All we can do is surmise...
Reduced was found in Rollers, introduced into Rollers, in this area decades ago and many loft here and else where have this factor. Roger Baker did very well with his lace birds. It is no different that working with the spread factor or the Recessive Red factor or the Indigo factor. It is simply a color, like any other color. The color factors don't effect the roll.
Set Color, what is that? A common color? A color that many of the imports possessed? A standardized color?
Sorry, we have no color standards.... never have. We have common colors and we have uncommon colors, all found on some really nice spinning Birmingham Rollers. Pick what ever color turns your crank. We have that option to choose from many colors of True Birmingham Rollers. But if your choice runs to the more common colors, that fine too. But I like the pretty birds that spin.
I don't know anyone who thinks Toy Stencil, Barless, white bars, lace, etc. is not an uncommon factor. They were very definantly added.......but most added some 70-80 years ago to as recently as 10-20 years. And the True Birmingham Rollers that posses those factor are atleast 15/16 of the base family, which in this case was Pensom's.
I know of no one selling F-1 crosses as Birmingham Rollers.... DO YOU?
Who told you there was ever a secret? You got the Turner genetics tape, The NBRC sold them. There was never a secret kept. It has been advertised in the bulletin for years.
When Gregg gets them right, it takes years, I wonder what he will call them? Probably True Birmingham Rollers.
On those quotes, you connect the dots. I have my opinion, you have yours. I put them out there for historical reference. Each man is free to understand WHP and the history of the Birmingham Roller to the best of his ability. Nobody has a corner on the market of truth in this regard. Most all we have are the stories of old pigeon men...
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1270 posts
May 22, 2008
2:27 PM
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Paul F
I think many of your questions are answered in the article about James Turner. Tony has up in the reading room and several of the factors and where they came from, is addressed there. Check it out and what ever questions you still have, I'll try to answer them.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1271 posts
May 22, 2008
2:32 PM
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Shaun
Well, It was a long shot. I am trying to connect Kenny and Tony's dots. If they are correct and the Birmingham Roller was derived from the WOE and the ODT and if those breeds had ALREADY many of the rare factors, it seemed logical to assume that some of those colors/modifiers would be found in the English Birmingham Roller Gene pool.
I will certainly give you Brits credit for helping make my loft what it is today. We ( Well, not all of us) didn't mess it up, we just tweaked the colors a tad. Kinda like we took Cricket and tweaked it, got rid of the bug name, rounded the bat and call it our national sport of BASEBALL. We took rugby, tweaked it and voila....Foot ball.....King and Queen to President and Vice President, tea to coffee, scones to biscuits, WE just do that sort of thing, here. Nevertheless, the Birmingham Roller will stand as one of your finest achievements, in my book.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1272 posts
May 22, 2008
2:34 PM
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Paul F
On this judging thing. What if all birds put up for any fly in the US had to be "certified" as a spinner/performer before it could be placed in a competition kit, 20 or 11? Would that up the quality of our kits? It would sure clean out the dead wood in a hurry. It might make the weak non- competitive regions have to throw in with the next closest region. The WC rules state UP TO 5 qualifiers per region. If the West coast would combine regions to max out the 5 qualifiers, maybe it would increase the number of good kits in the finals.
It would take some time to get 20 birds certified but it would have to help towards only quality kits in the flys and more quality kits in the finals. Silly idea....it would never work...... most dislike the certified roller program anyway. Awwwww FORGET IT! LOL!
Cliff
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fhtfire
1374 posts
May 22, 2008
3:28 PM
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Cliff,
True means purebred...so a colored bird is not a purebred..if you have birds from 20 years ago that carry the gene..and you have bred True/Pure..then you are ok...not worries....As far as cert for the rollers..hell no...what a waste of time....And when I say color standard..I do not mean list all the colors that are ok....the standard should have the NOT colors...and I am sure you could make this list of not colors...and you mentioned the ones that were crossed to make the color in your above post...I am all for that.....but if a bird is showing a rare color and has been bred pure for 20years...then what are the odds that that color will pop up...in my years of breeding....when you breed away from a cross and keep breeding pure to every offspring that gene keeps falling down the ladder until it is so burried it would be hard to dig up..the reason being...is that if a color of factor is introduced to a breed that is not normally there...you just breed pure again and the gene will bury itself...that IS scientific......look at humans...I mean...I am American Indian 1/4...now if I have a white wife...and then my kids marry white ..and so on...my good old Native American gene would be burried and the odds of my kids great great coming out with Black hair, Recessed eyes, red skin and a bow and arrow in one hand is pretty small.....My girlfriend is a perfect example..she is filipino..but she has a lot of Spanish traits...why...well the spanish had some fun during the conquering of the Philipines..and guess what..every now and then that gene pops up....but it is burried...none of her relatives look like her...they are all more traditional with the asian look....anyway...The dots have been connected....I agree that there is no color standard...and it should be The brimingham roller should "show" any color except barless, Toy stencil as examples or whatever cross was made in recent years.
As far as the standard...just because a bird meets the standard ...does not mean it is of that breed...man..that is a FACT...
there is no differnece between a cross meeting the standard and your every day tumbler..the cross is not of that breed and neither is the tumbler..weather they roll or not!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1375 posts
May 22, 2008
3:29 PM
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Cliff,
We would not need a color standard if the crosses were not brought in...right?? If the "standard" you guys hold onto with both hands is so important...then the cross did not meet the standard in the first place and should have never been bred to a brimingham...so if the standard was followed the whole time..we would not be having this converstation..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Steve S.
79 posts
May 22, 2008
5:00 PM
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I am seeing alot of misinformation from men that were
not around say in the 1950's or earlier.
Bill Pensom stated the standard for the Birmingham Roller
as he had only seen it as it was when it was bred from the
Dutch Tumbler and the English Tumbler "of which possibly had some Oriental Roller influence" to become called the
Birmingham Roller as it was created as a new breed.
WHP had no idea that there was going to be nor invisioned
that fanciers would cross other breeds into it for color and just because it rolled to the standard of which he proclaimed,It would be called a True Birmingham Roller.
As a youngster I had birds down from alot of the old guys
that had birds from the original imports such as Father
Shlattman the old priest who lived on Waller st. in my home town and moved to St. Louie but left his mark on this area.
Al Walkers birds were around here also as he was up north around Detroit MI.
I never saw any of the odd dilutes, pencel,stencil,barless
or strange colors untill the war of the show rollers vs the
performance rollers in the 70's.
These odd colored birds may roll to the standard of which
Pensom stated but they can never be the True Birmingham
Roller as created to become the breed at its origin.
Steve
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sippi
283 posts
May 22, 2008
5:10 PM
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Pensom was no dummy when he didnt say what color a "TRUE" Birmingham roller was. He set forth an intangible standard. That standard says it must roll like one to be one. I have seen as many piles of bird crap with PURE lineage as I have color, maybe more.
Yes there are feather merchants out there that will sell you anything you want. If you dont believe it go to some of the for sale sites and watch. If Pensom brings money they will pop up. If Plona works they have those too. They will baptist them and make them Fireballs if that is what you need. Those people will always be out there unfortunately.
As for your adamant assertion that PURE=TRUE that is only one of twelve or fourteen definitions. So how can you be so positive that Pensom meant True=Pure.
I would wager my last nickel,if it could be proved, that when Bill was driving his bus and saw that "TRUE" spinner and went and bought the parents he did not care what color it was or whether its grandaddy was a chinese owl. He only wanted the True Birmingham Roller.
Shaun are there any Almonds in England that you know of?
Sippi
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fhtfire
1376 posts
May 22, 2008
5:50 PM
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Ok guys...a True birmingham roller...a true meaning that it is..the thing is..in his time...True was used to describe a pure...my dad is 85 years old and he uses the words true to discribe something pure...he showed me some gold nuggets the other day and he said..boy now that is True gold right there....I have heard him use the word true in place of pure so many time.....That deer rifle there is a true Browning...make in Portuguel and assembeled in belgium..if it does not say that it is not a true Browning...That is a true 49 plymouth......nothing aftermarket on that car boy...that is as true as they made them....SPLITTING HAIRS>>LOL
Anyway...I have to take a break..I have to focus on my Finals fly tomorrow.....birds just looked OK when I locked them down.....Wind for 5 days in a row..and then only had 4 days to fly them in a row..and the last day was the 20th....and the temp is up and down like a roller coaster..and it has been 30mph gusts that last two days...so I am STRESSED..but anyway..I have to be all nervous...so I will be back in the debate after 10am tomorrow...Scott Campbell flys early morning..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 22, 2008 5:50 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1257 posts
May 22, 2008
6:59 PM
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Paul F. And I would bet if you and your dad was standing under a kit of color rollers performing their butts off at 500 feet he would say Boy there is a kit of True Birmingham Rollers.LOL.
Good Luck tomorrow.David
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fhtfire
1377 posts
May 22, 2008
8:46 PM
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Dave,
LOL...that is funny...the funny thing is....that my dad is from Arkansas...third grade education....down to earth..good ol boy...and then his son...me...lol...ear rings..tatoos....lol!! WHen I got my ear rings back in the day...he was pissed...called my Pauline for a year...thanks for the wish of luck!!
Paul
oops...rock and ROLL
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George R.
717 posts
May 22, 2008
9:49 PM
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Thats Funny Paul .. your Dad is real old school... Good Luck tommorow ...
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Scott
645 posts
May 22, 2008
10:19 PM
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Sippi, Don Oulette told me a few years ago that he saw Almond in a loft when he was judging the W.C. .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Shaun
608 posts
May 22, 2008
11:40 PM
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Cliff, to my mind this is it in a nutshell. You said to me "I will certainly give you Brits credit for helping make my loft what it is today. We ( Well, not all of us) didn't mess it up, we just tweaked the colors a tad. Kinda like we took Cricket and tweaked it, got rid of the bug name, rounded the bat and call it our national sport of BASEBALL. We took rugby, tweaked it and voila....Foot ball.....King and Queen to President and Vice President, tea to coffee, scones to biscuits, WE just do that sort of thing, here."
Cliff, this absolutely hits the nail on the head...but, at least the US had the good grace to change the names of our stuff which you 'tweaked' (good euphemism, that - rather like color 'modifiers').
What you've done with the Birmingham Roller is to change it but keep the same name. It's that fact alone which causes more arguments then any. If you're going to do something the American way, then have the decency to change the original name to reflect the changes. Call it American Roller, USA Roller, Carolina Roller - anything, but frigging Birmingham Roller.
Shaun
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Ty Coleman
321 posts
May 23, 2008
4:33 AM
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Ive seen Hartman call them American Birmingham Rollers----?
I dont see were the pigeons have been changed enough to change there name as Cliff stated the American's tweaked the birds we flat out changed the other stuff he mentioned, big difference, his point was we are allways trying to improve stuff.I take pride in being a member of the NBRC and I take pride in raising Birmingham rollers, with performance as my goal,if any one cares to pay my feed bill then they can call my birds what ever they wish.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1258 posts
May 23, 2008
4:58 AM
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Paul F.Your Dad and I would get along just fine.LOL.
Went thru the same thing with my youngest son with the earring thing.The older sons knew better than to even attempt it.LOL
Anyway I called my son Dianna and soon the hunters coming into the store started calling him Dianna and within 3 month he quit wearing the earring.We laugh about it now.
Life is good.By the time you read this you and Scott will probably have flown your kits.I will be rootin for both of you.David
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Scott
646 posts
May 23, 2008
5:12 AM
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( If you're going to do something the American way, then have the decency to change the original name to reflect the changes. Call it American Roller, USA Roller, Carolina Roller - anything, but frigging Birmingham Roller)
I got it " Carolina Party Color Roller " or "Corolina Barn Thumpers" or "Colored Corolina head Bangers" or "Gay Colored Rollers" or "Corolina Mutz Rollers" or "Corolina Colored All Breeds Rollers",Twikie Twirler Rollers of America" man the list is endless ,Just trying to be helpful.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 5:50 PM
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W@yne
1336 posts
May 23, 2008
6:26 AM
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Lmao Scotty you are star.
Good luck in the WC buddy
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
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fhtfire
1378 posts
May 23, 2008
7:08 AM
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Scott..that is funnier then shit....
Dave...yeah..when I am in Utah deer hunting....I get the looks from the other hunters...I don't look like a hunter...then I gave them something to look at with a 4X4 Mulie with a 27" spread....LOL!!!
Well,,,it looks like I have some wind this morning...don't know what is going to happen now!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerman132
301 posts
May 23, 2008
9:14 AM
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Scott
Now that was funny,I’m still lmao.
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rollerman132
302 posts
May 23, 2008
9:55 AM
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Cliff
Pensom thought that the Dutch tumbler crossed with the Oriental roller might have been used in the creation of the Birmingham roller. Now if tippler was added at some point, it was added for some reason, maybe the Birmingham roller didn’t fly high enough or long enough. One thing for sure it wasn’t added just for it’s color. All the breeds that were used in the creation of the Birmingham roller were performances breeds. Were the breeds used in the creation of these exotic colors performance breeds? In what way did these other breeds improve the Birmingham roller?
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 9:58 AM
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Ballrollers
1273 posts
May 23, 2008
11:01 AM
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rm132,
Gee, I didn't know that you were around back when they added tippler grizzle to rollers around 1900. You are so naiive......lol! Do you really believe that a few pigeon a century ago said to themselves, "We are going to breed the ultimate performance pigeon, so let's cross this to that....and we will only use performance pigeons...nothing pretty...."?......I believe that it was more like, "Let's see what happens if we bred this to that....and maybe if we add that we will get something different.....!" Hell, they COULD have been breeding for wild colors in the breed crosses-the original color breeders! LOL!.....and then were amazed with the different performance they got, so they went in that direction! In any case, it is that performance that has always identified these birds...and probably always will.....not the colors that I like, nor the colors that you do not. Sure, RM, nobody ever enjoyed the color of a roller pigeon before James Turner....Go ahead and believe whatever nonsense you want about old pigeon men...Geesh!......We weren't there...so nobody knows what was in their minds...we can all fantasize it however we wish.....I have no idea why they outcrossed another breed...could have been to make them fly higher....could have been for the grizzle factor...funny how you guys on that side seem to profess such a profound knowledge of things that went on before your time, yet you never post any references to support it! So it's only your opinion, and my opinion...for whatever that's worth...
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 12:58 PM
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Ballrollers
1274 posts
May 23, 2008
11:10 AM
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Shaun
In this particular instance and through the strange twists and turns of the fancy, the long standing name of the Birmingham roller was (is) based on a performance standard and not a color/type standard as found in most breeds. At this stage of the game, I don't think enough men want to take on that responsibility to get involved in a political charged debate, to force a name change or a color standard or both. I could be wrong but the NBRC is not that large of a group to start with and we could be hard pressed if we lost support of members over this question.
If you look at our pigeon political history, the Roller clubs of the past destroyed themselves from the inside out. Right now, the NBRC has outlasted most of the big clubs. We need to find a way to unify the flyers not look for ways to pull us apart.
But look at the size of the membership of RPDC, now how many are actively engaged in this debate? A small fraction. This shows us that very few really care about this controversy. Yes, It is important to those of us that post on this issue; but to the rest of the fancy.....not so much.
The TRUE - PURE designation seems like it may work but we seemed destined to mush on through the war of words and solve nothing in the end.... if there is an end.
For me, I enjoy this fancy and I abide by the standards set forth by the NBRC/WC and my local club. There is no reason to change my understanding. But I do see the other side of this coin.....I just don't agree with that opinion.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1275 posts
May 23, 2008
11:14 AM
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rm132
OK, I'll try to be more serious......The rare colors improved the Birmingham Roller in exactly the same way, the common colors improved the Birmingham Roller. The feather pigment has nothing to do with the performance of the roller. When we get documentation on why Grizzle, Rec Red, Spread, etc., etc., was added to the Birmingham Roller, then we can decide if colors have anything to do with why rollers roll. Until then, I guess we will just have to speculate and wonder why WHP chose to define a True Birmingham Roller by its performance alone without reference to size, shape, muffs, eye sign, crests, keel depth, tail flex, beak line, rare color, common color or any color, oil glands and so forth.
If you chose to accept the genetic texts; that it is possible to introduce a color into a breed and not effect anything else, maybe you would see things differently. But if you chose to not to, that is also your choice.
I did not introduce the colors into a roller. I did not create the performance standard. I was not there to tell you how this came to be.
We are not sure exactly what all tumbler breeds and tippler breeds were mixed and how it was determined to use this bird or that bird. But we accept the fact that the Birmingham roller was created out of this mix. If we can accept that without question........... Why can't we accept the common genetic knowledge that a color can be introduced into a breed without adversely affecting the purpose of the breed? It takes years, it takes skill and knowledge, but I think it was very successfully done. Now, I fully realize that it is open to debate, but that is the world we live in. That is why we are here in this discussion.
Short answer... I don't know. All I know is True Birmingham Rollers come in many different colors and patterns. Performance is not defined by colors. Performance is defined by the standard and that standard defines the breed.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1276 posts
May 23, 2008
11:27 AM
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The Birmingham Roller By WHP
Lewis Wright quote, "The True BR turns over backwards..."........."AND THIS SENTENCE PROVIDES AN EXCELLENT STANDARD FOR THE PERFORMANCE OF A BIRMINGHAM ROLLER." Written by WHP! He said it over, and over, and over, and over......the standard is performance, not purity, or family, or pedigree.....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1277 posts
May 23, 2008
11:40 AM
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"We would not need a color standard if the crosses were not brought in...right?? If the "standard" you guys hold onto with both hands is so important...then the cross did not meet the standard in the first place and should have never been bred to a brimingham...so if the standard was followed the whole time..we would not be having this converstation...
rock and ROLL
Paul "
Paul,
....if the dog wouldn'ta stopped to s#%t he mighta caught the rabbit! I see no value in dealing with woulda, coulda, shoulda. I prefer to deal with reality...
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1278 posts
May 23, 2008
12:25 PM
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Scott
You are on a roll, buddy! But I think "True Birmingham Roller" fits the birds much better. They perform to standard; the long held, performance standard. They have unlimited colors and patterns. They satisfy every rule in the books. They have the proper number of tail feathers. They are Pensom based. They everything that describes a Birmingham roller and just a little something extra, a splash of added colors.
To be more specific: Birmingham Roller, Turner variety. That should satisfy most of the critics, there is no secrets here. The family/variety is right there for all to see.
Good luck today.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1279 posts
May 23, 2008
1:02 PM
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Steve S
Are you saying "odd dilutes, pencil, toy stencil, barless and other strange colors" have been around for 25-30 years or longer? And nothing was done to help straighten out this color controversy? My oh my!
Guys, I have only been competing with these birds for the last few years. If this " controversy" has been hanging fire for a quarter of a century...... Gees, we are just getting started!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1280 posts
May 23, 2008
1:08 PM
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Paul F
The Turner crosses were 15/16ths pure and performed to standard BEFORE they were released to a flyer. They were Ture Birmingham Rollers when they left his loft. What flyers did with them after that...who can say.....who would you hold accountable? Did your birds come from James? Did you pick them from the air? And still they didn't work for you? Hmmmm Sounds like with your numbers above 70%, that you are way ahead of most of us, here, with your birds now. I wish you the best with them.
Cliff
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SiDLoVE
241 posts
May 23, 2008
2:16 PM
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Cliff.
I was curious , How long are the Turner birds good for,, Do they only perform at 3 month ..6 month to 1 year.. Or like fine wine do they get better with age and never lose performance at any point? Thanks
siDLove
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Ty Coleman
322 posts
May 23, 2008
3:12 PM
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Sid, I fly pure Turners and i have some as old as 10 years that are still going strong the majority of my birds are 06, 07 and some 08 and from what ive seen so far they get better with time.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 3:14 PM
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Oldfart
677 posts
May 23, 2008
3:43 PM
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Hey All, It's a ride that's for sure! Cliff, you are correct, only a few of the most knowledgeable are posting to this thread but I, as one of the less knowledgeable have followed along from the first. I'm certain in my own mind that I'm not alone. I choose to read and try to learn without cluttering the descusion with meaningless dribble.
Let the games continue! I'm not the sharpest tack, I'm a sponge!
Thom
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Steve S.
80 posts
May 23, 2008
4:16 PM
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Cliff,
The controversy has not been a hang fire.
Pensom himself seperated and distanced himself from the PRC
"Pensom Roller Club"...
because of the introduction of colors and crosses into the
Birmingham Roller to make it a show bird of larger type with new colors.
These colors were bred back to Birmingham Rollers and the
size was reduced to appear as the originals.
The true breed was polluted and is still being done for the sake of selling unusual colored pretty birds.
The problem is that they are passed on as Birmingham Rollers.
Some people new to the hobby don't know the difference
and pass them on.
I will agree I have seen some of these rollers spin with the same standard as Pensom set for the original Birmingham
Roller but in my 53 years of experience of the roller hobby It is my belief that the colored rollers after being bred for a period of time, inbreeding, line breeding, etc, will not breed rollers that hold up but return back to the crosses they came from.
Steve
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Ty Coleman
324 posts
May 23, 2008
6:10 PM
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Steve, thats a intristing concept to think about. I cant speak for all familys of colord rollers but the Turner family has been bred for 40plus years and the birds that these birds were based from had been bred since the30's and 40's. Thats a long history. I want say a modena want hatch tommorow in my loft but i realy dont see it happening.The only thing i see hatching tommorow is another great spinner.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 6:12 PM
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sippi
290 posts
May 23, 2008
6:11 PM
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Steve I have to disagree with you. They have been bred pure for thirty years and havent reverted back yet. If it hasnt happened by now It Aint Gonna Happen.
Just an FYI two of the birds in Pensoms book were yellows!
Sippi
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Gregg
306 posts
May 23, 2008
7:22 PM
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motherlodelofts
394 post s
24-Oct-2005
9:39 PM Here is the facts folks , these are pigeons , nothing more and nothing less.
And yes I for one always get get carried on this lousy topic and do not like where they end up .
It doesn't matter what you are raising and if you enjoy it keep doing it.
The interaction and relationships with the people involved here and in the sport and hobby no matter what they are breeding is far more important then what type of birds are in our backyards.
Scott Campbell
Mongrel Lofts
59 post s
24-Oct-2005
9:57 PM Good post Scott!! I for one am going to try and never touch this topic again. At least not on an open forum. Mongrel Lofts
Sorry guys,
But I had to throw that out here. I am past the arguing just for the sake of arguing. You are enjoying your back yard and I am enjoying mine.
Pauline. Paul, tell your Dad he didn't call you it long enough.lol. I found that amusing. Do you get to wear them on duty?
Just to add a bit of a twist to the argument if I may. There are very few animals aside those which mother nature formed and shaped over countless millenia that are not being shaped and re-shaped by man. It is inevitable no matter how hard you try to maintain purity. Even seed is being stored in huge refrigerated underground vaults lest the old varieties become extinct as man continues to improve on yields and resistance to pests and drought. You name it, dogs, cats, cattle, horses, chickens and even humans are now subject to some form of manipulation. Whether good or bad, only history will determine. But to be here arguing just for the sake of arguing is not going to change anyone's mind or stop the likes of me. Life will go on, hopefully.
What I hope is that everyone who is involved in these arguments will take the time to visit and see other roller fanciers and their birds in order to never become loft blind. In saying that I am trying to advocate a dedication to the preservation of the best performance that we can achieve in the Birmingham Roller irregardless of it's pedigree.
Where the purist fits into this from my point of view is not in condemning those with a taste for color but rather in assuring that those who do what I do meet those high qualities. What you can do is honestly evaluate the birds that you see fly and disregard the color. If it performs like a tippler and west of england tumbler cross, then call it the junk that it is.(Had to do that) But if it performs in conformity to your high standards, then give it it's due and call it a damn fine bird. (Giving you a little leeway here Scottie, Smile.
Hope everyone has a fabulous weekend.
Good luck to everyone flying the WC.
Gregg Sale.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 7:24 PM
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Ty Coleman
329 posts
May 23, 2008
7:37 PM
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RESPECT thanks Greg
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Gregg
307 posts
May 23, 2008
7:39 PM
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Scott,
I may have been giving you a bit of teasing just a minute ago but it is time to give you a big 'tip of the hat' for you and your birds performance in the WC finals.
Congratulations as you are now in first place.
Any one who hasn't seen it yet, Scott just put up 893.1 points.
Gregg Sale.
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rollerman132
303 posts
May 23, 2008
9:07 PM
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Cliff
Your right I wasn’t there when they crossed in the tippler, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any documentation to prove it. By you mentioning that the grizzle factor was brought in through the tippler, tells me you read some of that documentation your self. Putting color aside what did the ice pigeon contribute to the Birmingham roller other then its color? If I were developing the Birmingham roller my first choice would not be a breed for its color, it would be for its ability. Your right we don’t know what they were thinking when they creating the Birmingham roller, but we can make an educated guess by choices they made. How can a person fool them self when the facts are in fort of them? Performances was always there first priority every thing else came a long for the ride. You’re a smart man what are you try to accomplish in this debate? Duane
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