Scott
664 posts
May 27, 2008
6:46 PM
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your right Dave
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1308 posts
May 27, 2008
6:46 PM
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Paul,
No problem, here, my friend. I'm havin' a ball with this! There's also no diggin' in here. I have just been providing some basis for my opinon that the breed is not pure to begin with......other than the BS from some roller guy with an agenda. You are correct...there is much that we agree on. And I applaud anyone's work to keep the birds pure as you think it to be. I intend to keep mine as pure as the driven snow...for sure! LOL! Many of us just know better at this point. It has to be pure to begin with to be kept pure, and I think we have shown that the breed is anything but that, based on all the breed outcrosssing for color and performance that went on in the first half of the 20th century. If you draw a line in the sand and say, my birds are pure since 1950...well then you gotta accept ALL the color modifiers that were present in the breed at the time, which is most of them. You asked what's wrong with being a purist? It's when the "purist" uses that as a position of arrogance as one from which to disrespect other rollermen and other families of birds that he becomes obnoxious to us. But I think you know that already....It's the pot calling the kettle black. All we really know for certain is the background of the birds in our own lofts. Everything else is taking somebody's word...their memory...their record-keeping.....their breeding methods...their agendas......their banding techniques...their eyesight.....etc......and highly suspect. Stories and exaggerations abound in this sport. Keep that in mind the next time your best roller struts around with his wings hanging down like an Oriental Roller! LOL! Like it or not, these birds are all descendants of the British High Flying Tumblers and Rollers with barely an iota of genetic difference between the families and strains. Andys have been around for 75 years so far; my particular strain for 25 years or so. I expect they'll be hear when I'm dead and gone, too, breeding strictly for performance. That gene is not going to evaporate as you say.. I know my genetics enought to be sure of that!
And back to the purist thing.....I have not yet seen presented, any proof, or logic, or justifcation of any single position of bigotry and fame that the purist claims...going along with the purist agenda that is. End of story...
Cliff
PS. Pensom has written much more than a single book. If you have only read "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon", if that is what you are referring to....you have only scratched the surface....
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 6:58 PM
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Ballrollers
1309 posts
May 27, 2008
6:48 PM
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Scott,
No...I took that one from Elmer Fudd....you wascal you...LOL!
Cliff
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sippi
293 posts
May 27, 2008
7:11 PM
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Anyone who has studied the writings of W H Pensom knows that he greatly changed his beliefs in his writings over time. The Birmingham Roller Pigeon was at his midpoint in his beliefs. You need to read more than this book alone to understand his writings.
Paul you have yet to post a single fact bassed opinion on the subject except that toy stencil wasnt in the breed in 1945.
The only ones who can claim they have "pure" Birmingham Pensom Rollers are the ones who can positively trace thier pigeons origins to birds acquired from Pensom himself prior to the last imports. These were "gayly colored birds" that were crossed in to the darker stiffs that were happening in lofts on an alarming basis.
They were Ollie Harris birds if I am not mistaken. I am not going to write the passage out of the book though. That means you dont even then have "pure" Pensoms because they are some portion "pure" Harris birds.
I have seen pages and pages of facts presented by Cliff and others and have yet to see a fact presented by the Purist point.
Are there any that arent just spouting opinions or monkey see monkey do!
Sippi
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Velo99
1799 posts
May 27, 2008
7:39 PM
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I think some of Pensoms writings were misinterpreted to a degree.
For instance, the quote on roller or tumbler. Could it possibly be that by using the word tumbler,he intimates it performs but not the the standard he set forth for his personal program,therefore it is a cull?
One thing I have noticed is WHP wasn`t always succinct in his writings either by design or simply his style of writing. Personally it makes me think a little harder about what he was really communicating.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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sippi
294 posts
May 27, 2008
7:47 PM
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Velo I gathered that a tumbler to Pensom was a cull and didnt deserve the name of Birmingham Roller nor did it meet the Standard. Am I wrong?
Sippi
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Scott
666 posts
May 27, 2008
8:11 PM
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Well Sippi , I fly those so called dark stiffs as do quite a few, although we don't have the reputaion of flying stiffs, but that is neither here nor there.
What the hell does breeding Ollie Harris birds into a line have to do with crossbreeding for color? it is Birmingham Roller to Birmingham Roller, by the way Stencel is a much more recent crossbred as are many others, funny how these crossbreds keep getting pushed back in time.
Here is another one, there is a guy that posts right here that was selling on the mutt site an f-1 or f-2 cross as a Birmingham, when mentioned here and not by name it was pulled in hrs, of coarse he's one of those trying to mongrelize the breed to justily it and claiming "I don't know anyone that crossbreeds".
The same goes for Cliff, he dam sure does know others that has and does crossbreed
That is all of this is about, mongrelizing the breed on a whole to justify the mutts.
And while I'm on a roll, no, no one is flying good mutt colors in even small numbers, the reason is because it has to be buried to the point of loosing it,which a few flyers have done with success.
And those that actually don't bury it and follow the mutt color by color breeding,well we won't even go there as there is nothing there.
Cliff hasn't shown squat other than reading between the lines to suit crossing in Toy Stencil and such.
And all of that reading between the lines and yet it is all summed up in a few lines out of the same compiled writings that he certainly avoided posting
WHP
(I have no time for big or little crossbreds)
Pretty frigging cut and dry,and only took nine words.
There is nothing out there as informitive on the breed as those writings,hard to beleive that some joker would try and use someting that evolves so fully in and around the glory of the breed to try and use it to destroy the breed as a breed and work so hard at doing so is beyond me, in fact it is bordering on twisted, and for what ? to justify some shmucks cross breeding other breeds into the Birmingham Roller for color, that is the of sole purpose of all on the other side in it's rawest form.
And yet there is so much that can be learned from those writings on the breed, and how someone can actually bypass such great insite just for this garbage is hard to fathom
Well thats it Cup Cakes
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 9:40 PM
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fhtfire
1386 posts
May 27, 2008
8:58 PM
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Bluesman,
I was refering to another post on why pensom left..I have no idea why he left...I was only going by what someone else posted....should have been more clear...lol.....
as far as the post..not from you dave..but stating that I have yet to post any facts....what facts do I have to post...we have all agreed...the breed was crossed for colors....the only stance that I have been taking on this..is that we should not cross the breed for color..period...not facts needed for that....any lugnut can figure that one out...LOL...
rock and ROLL
Paul-
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sippi
295 posts
May 27, 2008
9:53 PM
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Hopefully I can resist and make this my last post on this thread. The debate has been on pure vs true. It doesnt have to be pure to be true. There are true pure birds and there are true color birds. There is also crap in both too.
Several people have asked if another breed rolled like a BR would that make it true. There is no other breed that can roll like a BR so that is a mute point.
The Standard is, and has always been the way to define a true Birmingham Roller. The Standard is an intangible. You cant touch it, see it, taste it, it just is. That is all we need to keep our eye on the ball irregardless of the feathers the bird is carrying around.
Sippi
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2559 posts
May 27, 2008
11:04 PM
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Hey Gregg, I am glad you see fit to quote me, even though it is an effort to discredit me, thanks! LOL
If you have really been up on my position at all and followed my posts on this thread particularly the one to start it and the links I put in, I think you should take a different tack.
What I am attempting to express is that most of us (apparently sans you) agree on more than we realize, I have been very forthcoming in my views (read my first post) and how I am willing to shift my view from a purist one because it cannot be proven genetically and to highly consider the Karp article which brings potential for amazing insight, at least to me, for the existence of certain colors in the breed.
You are a smart man. The quote that you use of mine that has gotten your hackles up is this:
"crossing or selection to develop 'rare' colors is downgrading"
I would guess that this bothers you is perhaps because it is the practice that you implement in your own loft and you must not let this train of thought become the common lest if reflect negatively on your breeding practices?
Ah, isn’t THAT the rub?
As far as assuaging anyone’s psyche to the benefit of my business is your own personal cynical characterization. I find it offensive for you to say such a thing about me in this public forum forcing me to have to defend myself of such an accusation.
Gregg, sometimes, its just about the love of the pigeons.
Not everyone who buys supplies from this site feels it has to perform to their every personal liking to support it with purchases where and when possible, unlike a few pontificates.
As for what is and is not policy on this site, I stand as a committee of 1, and I can move that whatever I think is in the best interest of this site be implemented. No committees to tie my hands.
Saying that, as you very well know, I lend an ear to constructive input and have moderated posts and deleted entire threads based on the input of some who have never even graced this site with words or thoughts from their keyboards.
Gregg, sometimes, its just about the love of the pigeons.
When you don’t like the message, attack the messenger, eh, Gregg? LOL
I stand by everything I have posted on the issue and it is what I believed at the time. Like Pensom, my knowledge and perspective grows and I reserve the right to modify my views as more information comes to light and my years with my Ruby Rollers increases.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Shaun
615 posts
May 28, 2008
2:42 AM
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Cliff, just to expand a little, the reason that UK flyers don't go to the far end of a fart about the background to their birds, is because the family tree is somewhat limited; all the brooks and streams merge with the same big rivers. So, there's a collective confidence in what's being acquired.
The US necessarily has a different approach to roller stock, simply because there are so many different potential sources and many believe there has been, and still is, cross-breeding for looks. Against this backdrop, is it any great wonder that some might wish to delve deeper into birds' origins and obsess about pedigrees?
Shaun
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Ballrollers
1310 posts
May 28, 2008
5:27 AM
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Tony
"Also, that certain well bred "non BR" roller pigeons...... Just more difficult to maintain...."
Can you clarify the meaning of this statement for me .. PLEASE. I am not sure I agree with this statement as written.
Thank you,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1311 posts
May 28, 2008
5:30 AM
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Tony
According to your understanding:
At least two NBRC presidents, at least one winner of the WC and at least one winner each of the NBRC 20 and 11 competitions all fly "NON BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS." Don't you think we can find better words to define those True Birmingham Rollers that contain a little more genetic diversity than the earliest English imports? "Non-Birmingham" is opinion, not fact......sounds like a Vienna Tumbler or something! :)
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1312 posts
May 28, 2008
6:01 AM
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Scott,
Same old lines from you, my friend...same old agenda...ignore the facts...press on with the agenda...And it couldn't be further from the truth...but then, we have come to expect nothing less from you.
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2562 posts
May 28, 2008
6:05 AM
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Hey Cliff, I can see your point, what do you think of wording like this:
“The Birmingham Roller bred to meet the True BR standard for performance has the highest value and worth and should be so prized by the owner”.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
669 posts
May 28, 2008
6:13 AM
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(at least one winner of the WC and at least one winner each of the NBRC 20 and 11 competitions all fly "NON BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS.")
No Cliff, "some" were non Birmingham Roller,not all !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1313 posts
May 28, 2008
6:46 AM
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Scott,
You misunderstood me...I said ALL of these men were flying these birds....not that they were flying ALL color birds. And then we are back to the same old discussion of the base family being Turners with a small genetic mix from other families for a few of them.
Define your terms, please. I am saying these flyers families contain rare colors. I am not saying all the birds or any of the birds had the rare phenotype visible and identifiable to the average roller man. None of these men will deny that their family has rare colors floating around in the gene pool. They simply don't care. Like the Brits, they do care about performance as evidenced by their fly records.
Cliff
P.S. I have been in lofts and under kits all around the country, and in most of those in the Carolinas. I have NEVER had a flyer tell me that he is crossing in another breed of pigeon to get a modifier...or for any other reason.....or show me his "projects"....nor have I ever seen another breed in a flyer's loft for that purpose. That is simply a figment of your imagination. Guys may have tried it, and culled it, but that's all I have heard about it. It has been asked, repeatedly, by me and others on this forum, for you guys to name lofts where active breed outcrossing is occurring. I have yet to see one loft identified.....except for Gregg's recent revelation on his own.
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 7:01 AM
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Ballrollers
1314 posts
May 28, 2008
7:03 AM
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Tony
There you go! Nothing wrong with that. I think most all men who fly these birds can support that statement; me included. Is that your quote? May I quote you?
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2563 posts
May 28, 2008
7:22 AM
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Cliff, yes!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Shaun
616 posts
May 28, 2008
7:29 AM
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Cliff, I recall looking at birds on a website a while ago... let me remember... was it slobberyjiggerypokery lofts or something? There were birds on there which certainly looked crossed to me, and they were being described as Mason Birmingham Rollers. I mean, Cliff, if you haven't seen any hanky panky on your travels, you can't have looked very far. If George were dead, he'd be turning in his grave. As it is, he's alive and well and resigned to the US trading all sorts of cross-bred crap under his name.
Shaun
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 7:31 AM
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fhtfire
1387 posts
May 28, 2008
8:33 AM
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Cliff,
That is what I have been arguing about the whole time....Shaun hit the nail on the head...the ones that "look" like crosses being passes off. I am not talking about birds crossed 20 years ago..or even 10 years ago...I am not talking about your birds...if they have trace amounts of colored blood from the past that was out of your control. I am talking about the birds that do not have the "look"..we all know what a true brimingham looks like..that character..the look of I am a bad ass...well balanced..up on the toes..like it knows you have a camera in your hand....not the scared to death look..unpowerful..homely looking cross......Shaun..just said what I was trying to say the whole time....and that is the site that I saw too..and that is what Scott was saying....that photo of a bird a couple years back...being sold as a pure roller....and DID NOT LOOK LIKE ONE>>.you would have freaked too Cliff...that is what got us all going....Turner did his thing...when I was about 8 years old...lol..I am not talking about guys who carry Turner blood.....that is fine...I am not talking about the 50,60,70,80...I am talking about the guys doing it now and selling......if you are selling your are letting the crap out of your back yard.....thes are not 15/16 birds or birds that actually look like a br...they are obvious...they are culls....just like you can tell a crap pure bird..they have that goofy look....Shaun nailed it...the debate is over if you can agree that doing it now is retarded...and admitting that the lace..and toy..were crossed in..not in the distant pass..but pretty recent....I am not worried about a few here and there..because if you follow the roll..the color will be of no issue...sooner or later..the bird will pick up the hard colors....or not make the grade in the breeder loft and be culled...anyway...Shaun just stated....my feelings...thanks SHAUN!!! I remember that photo..on another site...and it was off the site when we kicked up some dust....anyway...Cliff....I think you are protecting your birds more then the issue...and your birds are fine..you are fine...your breeding is fine....you had no control over what someone did 20 years ago....lets all band together and say no more.. from this point on...
We all say no more crossing for color from today on..then we will be just fine...can't change the past..only the future..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 8:33 AM
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Ballrollers
1315 posts
May 28, 2008
10:45 AM
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Shaun
Good point! When I speak of not knowing anybody crossing for colors. I mean, I do not know anyone crossing for colors who is proving his birds in the air and flying competitively. As far as I am concerned, that site is for men who raise rollers for colors; NOT FLYING. They are better termed show colors, not competition flight tested. Therefor they cannot earn the title of a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. Competition draws the line in the sand as well as anything I can think of. (It is a very similar issue as with show rollers. I don't consider those True Birmingham Rollers either.) However, some on that list fly the same family I do and have earned the True Birmingham Roller title. And I know David is following the roll and the colors just go along for the ride. Same as me, same as lots of men in the area and scattered across the US. That is one of the main differences in color breeders and Birmingham roller breeders, one breeds for color first and the other breeds for performance first. The bind comes in when we realize they are "practically" the same birds just used in a different ways. Just because you compete with a family of birds that have a few rare colors in the gene pool, does not arbitrarily make one a color breeder. JMHO and yours may vary. :)
WE could make the same case for men who compete in lawn shows with their birds. Just different games we play with friggin pigeons. What another man does in his yard, with his pigeons does not concern me. If anyone states they have BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS.... PUT UM UP! See if they can earn the title.......before KGB and Scott get all worked up, I'm talking a bird with standard BR type....that looks like a BR, has 12 tail feather held tightly, has a beak, normal eyes; a bird most anybody could say is a BR. Not a duck, not a fan tail, not a Vienna tumbler; a bird that looks like, and feels like a normal BR.....and not a red badge, Shaun! :)
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1316 posts
May 28, 2008
10:49 AM
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Paul
I agree that crossing different breeds into rollers is not a good thing. I have never said otherwise. From what I know about James Turner, he crossed Rollers with rare factors into his Pensom-based family and it took years to successfully accomplish. Anybody trying anything similar without the genetic knowledge, should not try it.
Neither should we suggest these crosses are pure anything. However, Turner birds have been brought back to genetically pure, as stated in the genetics texts, perform to standard, and are worthy of the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.
Where we get cross-wise is when a rare color is found on a bird that meets the standard and that bird is called something other than a True Birmingham Roller and it looks exactly like any other Birmingham Roller. Let them prove themselves in competition before we judge them. Nobody will win with anything other than a True Birmingham Roller.
We are on the same page, there.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 10:52 AM
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Ballrollers
1317 posts
May 28, 2008
10:55 AM
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Paul F
Your fight is with men who have different goals other than the men who fly and compete with Birmingham Rollers on this site. May I suggest you take your objections to them or do nothing as they have done nothing to you.
It all goes back to education and fly records. Who does what with their pigeons is none of my business and I would leave it at that. I mean, the same can be said of the show roller fancy. Go over there and it too will run counter productive, to a man who flys his birds.
Like Tony said the fancy is facing more pressing problems than what other groups do with their pigeons.
Cliff
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Steve S.
81 posts
May 28, 2008
10:58 AM
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Paul
I like yours and Shauns posts.
I had the opportunity to be with WHP on 2 occasions for about the whole day back in 1964 and 1967 before I went into the Army.
I also got to hear his take on breeding and flying rollers.
I also want David "bluesman" to know he had Modenas, tipplers and some homers and some tumblers long before he left the PRC of which he said he learned alot from breeding them and their stature and flying abilites that helped him pick better rollers as far as shape,size,keels and feather structure as he told me.
The tumblers were not his reason for leaving the PRC.
There were people, especially 2 officers of which I will not degrade after death that dissagreed the way things were going on at the show stage and Bill left the PRC.
I saw at shows the original Birminghams and the colors at
that time were no way as those of today.
I have old bullitins of the PRC and many records of Peds of
my own and fellow club members that have long been deceased
and as I looked some of them over I could not find the colors of those that are mentioned on this thread.
Call them what you want but don't confuse the unlearned.
Steve
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2564 posts
May 28, 2008
11:06 AM
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Hey Steve, that was very interesting stuff. So, the other breeds you mentioned he had, sort of helped him better understand his rollers? Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Shaun
618 posts
May 28, 2008
11:11 AM
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That's fascinating, Steve. We really could do with guys like yourself documenting what you can for the benefit of future generations. There can't be many of you left who had some involvement with WHP.
Meanwhile, any other snippets of information would be most welcome.
Shaun
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fhtfire
1388 posts
May 28, 2008
11:32 AM
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Cliff,
I have not been going after you or Dave or anybody for that matter...I am being vocal about my feeling of:
1. Crossing one breed to another
2. Not following the standard from the begining
3. Not following the standard period
4. Selling Mongrals as True/Pure Birmingham rollers
5. Breeding for color first and roll second
6. Saying that it is ok to have pretty colors...becuase you have to cross to get them..see 1-3
7. Letting the mutts out of the backyard..and into the mainstream.
8. Most of all...confusing the next gen of fliers
9. Ones trying to say that "certain colors" are normal in the BR>..when they know they were brought in as a cross...see 1-3
Again...not attacking anyone on this site if they are on the up and up...if you are flying Turners...great...if they have not been crossed in the last 10 years..I would bet my left nut that they are a pure as pure could be....As far as going after someone for what they do...not my style cliff..never has been....I will debate on a forum...becuase debates give knowledge.....The is the good old U>S. and people are free to do what they want.....will I tell someone that the bird they are holding is a mutt...if it "truly looks like one"...yes I will.....if it is an old line Turner...and is tearing it up in the air....I would say...awesome bird....breed it and see what you get...because..again...you breed for the roll..you will lose the color..and that is nature...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
1593 posts
May 28, 2008
11:39 AM
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So, from what I gather here at the end of this thread is that you guys are not questioning the integrity of the birds...rather, the integrity of the breeders!! Am I correct?
Jay
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fhtfire
1389 posts
May 28, 2008
11:41 AM
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Steve,
I wish you were more vocal...you met the man..you have been around and seen what colors are out there....before the infux of human nature trying to make new things...or trying to fix what is not broken..but anyway..do talk more....I know that there are not many left that could say I heard it from the horses mouth....but I know Chan Grover was a friend of Pensom and Bill C. is a good friend of Chan...Tony needs to contact Chan and do an interview and ask these questions...is toy stencil and lace a true birmingham color or was it brought about by human interference.......anyway....Bill has told me stories that Chan has said that so many old stories about WHP are so blown up over the years...like going into any mans loft and picking the best birds...Chan said that he could go into any mans loft...FLYING HIS BIRDS and pick the best birds....if they were not his strain....he was just like the rest of us......and that seems more realistic...Tony could do it...Scott Could do it....I could come close (still developing my strain).....so the story has changed over the years.....Chan has said that WHP is a legend far more then he really was...he was just a normal pigeon flier...like the rest of us....no better then the top fliers of this day and age....but over the years..the pan sized fish is now the size of a whale......so I feel the best way to settle some old arguments..is talk to the old timers......not a quote from what someone wrote down....if it is even that person that wrote it..
Tony..do an interview....with Chan...Call Bill C. and see if he can set it up...that would be fun....I have still not met the man..but I plan on it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1390 posts
May 28, 2008
11:55 AM
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Jay....you hit the nail on the head...cut off the color breeders legs(figure of speech).....then the other issue is gone....that is what I have said in the begining..I have used the word integrity elevedy billion times....if the bird is lagit...it will do what it does....we keep funneling colored birds into the mainstream....from "RECENT" crosses...is will kill us
I don't give a dumb diddly dumb dumb do...about the birds from the 80's and 90's...those birds will work there way back to pure if you follow the roll...that is nature...I am talking about it going on here and now..with merchants passing them off....in the old days..it was lying about strain...Masons, Pensoms, Barret..etc...now it is lying about the breed to sell a pigeon......
I honestly feel that using a breeders name is not as strong as it used to be to sell birds...because of the internet...and communication...it is easy to prove a bird did not come from a certain breeder...and there are more strong fliers out there..and more strains to pick from....and they are easy to get..you don't have to ride in a cover wagon across the US for a bird...it is at your doorstep in two days...
I also feel that the fancier of this day and age..have no problem giving away birds too.....or borrowing birds etc...the reason for giving more birds away..is well..there were no XBOX, and computers in the old days...so pigeons were fun...now us fanciers see that if we do not give some birds to the new kid or new fancier....then they will not have pigeons...and the next generation X...will not be flying birds....and we will slowly dwindle away to a handfull of fliers.......shit...at least it will be easier to win a big fly!!! LOL!! HEy maybe that is why the colors are being put into the mainstream...LOL kidding
Now the feather merchants are using pretty colors to sell birds....playing on youth and human instinct... as humans we like pretty things.....and as young men and women...youth loves FLASH...it is "cool" to show your buddies some bright colors...because a blue check...or white flight....looks like what you see in the park...BORING>>>to a young guy that wants flash..and if they do a couple crappy rolls...well..if you have never seen a bird roll in your life...you are sure to have your friend get there rocks off over nothing....so that is my theory.
Just as an example...one of my neighbors...love my bladies and grizzles.......she actually told me that I should chase those bar pigeons off my loft....those were my blue bars and checks...LOL...my other neighbor...was so excited seeing my youngbird team fly..they were doing lille lazy flips and he thought that was the coolest thing he had ever saw..so he saw something crappy and thought it was good....until I let the A-team out....then he started shitting rubber nickles....
so...again that is my thought..the crossing done now is all about money.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1318 posts
May 28, 2008
12:50 PM
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Paul
I'm not sure that I understand the intensity of your concerns about these issues expressed on this site, if nobody here is the target of your debates. One would think if you got an ax to grind, you would go to the offending party.
All I can tell you is in my birds, reduced, indigo and andalusian will and do, often, show themselves. This whole family, cocks and hens, are loaded with spin. I seldom see the same color combination twice in a season. And If I think I do, I am usually wrong. :) I will bet you, this family will continue to produce both spin and every interesting color and pattern contained with this family, for as long as I continue to follow the spin. So far I cannot confirm your suspicion that the rare factors will fade from the scene. Neither have I seen it in Jay's loft and he's had them eight or ten years. As I add the best performers from last year's kit birds, I come up with more and more rare colors to add to the breeder program. I don't think the rare factors will fade from sight as you seem to think. I do see how one may believe that the colors are fading by not being able to distinguish a lavender from an opal or a reduced opal or see the indigo on a red check, or various other combinations that look common to most. Very often the key to identifing a rare color may turn on a single feather out of place and that feather could, very well, be not easily seen. I do not see any evidence that your (and Scott's) postulate hold's any water, at this point. I'll keep you posted, though. But, I will probably have colorful kits of True Birmingham rollers for years to come, out of selections based on performance.
Cliff
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chuck
14 posts
May 28, 2008
1:30 PM
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I believe if anyone would ask Clay, He would tell You that He was flying Horner Jaconettes when He won the 20-Bird. Just want to keep the facts straight. Chuck
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 2:31 PM
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fhtfire
1391 posts
May 28, 2008
1:48 PM
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Cliff,
I did not have issues with anyone on this site for sellin g birds of color..but I did have an issue with saying that the BR is not a breed...and that saying that if a bird meets the standard it is a B.R.....I also did not agree with some color breeders claiming the have pure br..when they do not...they have crosses....so that was my only issue...and only ONE color breed had the balls to say that his colored birds were rollers not BR and that he called them "project birds" and I tip my hat off to that guy..he understands...breeding...understands the def of a breed....and does not call them a BR...other than that..I am fine..
rock and ROLL
Have to get back to saving lives..
Paul
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Ty Coleman
334 posts
May 28, 2008
2:55 PM
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Hey Guys,ive sorta set back and watched this one due to i posted all the fact's i had proof of, but i wanted to add this in. It seems to me that the majority posting on the "purist ticket" are all debating over WHP's loft which i personaly would not question. Pensom was the most well known breeder of the birmingham roller no doubt, but what about all the other men who bred the birmingham roller? Who says they didnt have colored rollers? The point im trying to make is just because Pensom didnt breed it doesnt make it not a Birmingham roller, just not the pensom strain. This thread was about the birmingham roller not the WHP Birmingham roller.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2566 posts
May 28, 2008
3:33 PM
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Hey All, I think mostly, we are seeing fairly eye to eye as is possible? Does anyone have any more pertinent input for this thread? Please add whatever you have today and this evening.
I would like to move on and initiate the drafting of a position statement that would best bridge the opinion/s of the members who are the most vocal and passionate on this issue and who probably represent the views of most of the site members.
It is my goal to see a completed document that most, if not all site members can accept and support.
I will make the working document available for viewing and make it possible for members to offer public and private feedback as we go along.
I will create an Advisory Board consisting of the following site members to advise and consult in order to produce a fairly worded final draft that will be acceptable to the greatest number of site members; the "board" would consist of Cliff Ball, Ty Coleman, Paul Sisk, Paul Gomez, Scott Campbell, Kenny Hartman, Paul Fullerton and myself.
If anyone would like to recommend another person to be on the board, go ahead and make your suggestion, I will carefully consider them.
If the gentlemen suggested are willing to participate, please let me know either here or by email (use the CONTACT US button).
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Ty Coleman
336 posts
May 28, 2008
3:38 PM
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It would be an honor Tony.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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fhtfire
1392 posts
May 28, 2008
3:42 PM
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Luis and Milo...Just kidding...I too would be honored Tony...rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
1801 posts
May 28, 2008
5:01 PM
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T
I am honored to be considered knowledgable enough to be included in your committee. I have been enlightened to a certain degree as the the origin of the BR and our love for it. It is the passion for both competetion and the breed that drives us to such extreme measures. It is my hope no toes were irrepairably damaged during the dabate which did exceed all expectations. I feel the sheer volume of posts demonstrates the willingness of the forum and its members to co operate in the venture to perhaps come to a reasonable conclusion.
I would like to restate my position prior to the closing of this thread and hopefully leave you with a few words of wisdom,which are relative to my overal outlook on life and the breed.
Be true to the breed,others and yourself. The only inheritance each and everyone of us have to give the future generations of rollermen is the legacy of honesty to the breed and our fellow flyers and fellow man.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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/()_)__20___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 5:04 PM
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SiDLoVE
244 posts
May 28, 2008
5:10 PM
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I didnt find this debate interesting at all for it to take 347 posts to figure it out... Its simple you either fly True Birmingham rollers.... or you fly a cross with a non roller, to make a pretty color which opened up a gene pool of a non roller to a roller which turned out to be a mess for the next guy... .
...just my view....
siDLOVE__
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 5:13 PM
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Ballrollers
1319 posts
May 28, 2008
6:16 PM
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Tony,
I'd be happy to put my two cents in. Thanks for the expression of confidence in my opinion...
Cliff
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1651 posts
May 28, 2008
6:20 PM
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I THOUGHT THE DEBATE WAS OVER ALONG TIME AGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Ballrollers
1320 posts
May 28, 2008
6:23 PM
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Chuck,
Clay is flying a mix of half a dozen or more families of rollers, although you are correct; his base family is Horner's Jaconette's. He has obtained Indigo and Andalusian birds from me and Jay Yandle, and flies them in his A-kit, as well as some reduced birds from Joe Bob and other flyers......Just keeping the facts straight...
Cliff.
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 6:29 PM
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Gregg
313 posts
May 28, 2008
7:14 PM
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Tony,
Nothing in my post was an intent to discredit you and I am sure that your allusion to same was a bit knee jerk on your part. If you feel that was my purpose, you have my sincere apology. I thought I was being as honest as possible in light of many of your past posts. You will have to accept that I have been very busy and have not had the time to read and assimilate all of the posts. But I could not ignore the thread due to my intense interest in same. I have/had the impression that once everyone voiced an opinion, no further comment was going to be allowed on the subject in the future. I would hope that was not the case, but it sure seemed to me that was your intention.
I see now that you have decided to name a committee to formulate a position paper on the subject. I personally feel that position paper or not, it is a subject that will not lend itself well to arbitration due to the hard line attitudes of many. But if you had to name a committee, the one you did name is fair in that it covers almost all points of view. Whether they can ever agree that may be another Ball of Wax. Pun intended. LOL. Sorry Cliff, had to do it.
Contrary to Paul's views, most of us do not cross in other breeds. Either we are smart enough to know better since that work was done so many many years ago. Or as in my case, I had to learn by experience, which is the most difficult method of attaining wisdom and knowledge. You have to realize I have only had a computer for four years now. For fifty seven years it was either USPS or telephone. Back in my heyday, the postal service was slow and the telephone was expensive. Very little information changed hands. Today, at least for me, the information available is like a tidal wave and I am still learning how to swim.
My problem is indeed with anyone that tells me that I cannot "select" for color and that it is downgrading the breed. Especially since I take so much care to also select for the highest quality performance. I am striving to enhance both and do find a challenge in same. That does not make me a pariah except in the minds of a vocal minortiy. And anyone that assumes that I select for color only or that color comes first and foremost is deluding only themself.
"Gregg, sometimes, its just about the love of the pigeons."
EXACTLY! And the sooner some realize their love is no greater than anothers, the better.
The reality is "it's just about the love of rollers." From the first time I saw a roller perform, it has been a non-stop love affair. As I've said before, All I've done is take the personal challenge another notch higher.
If you feel the messenger was attacked, I cannot change that. I was trying to be as honest as possible about my perception of how you would look at things, especially being in a business situation. If you so desire, I will try to be gentler in the future.
I will give you your due. You have been very responsive to negative issues concerning the fancy and have made adjustments when others have requested them. I am aware of and can vouch for that fact. My intent was not to cast aspersions on your character. I consider it intact.
Gregg Sale.
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fhtfire
1393 posts
May 28, 2008
8:02 PM
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Greg
"Contrary to Paul's views, most of us do not cross in other breeds"
What is that supposed to mean..I HAVE NEVER accused anyone on this site for crossing...and my posts have always stated that it was done in the past...my last post said it should not be done from this day forward...forget the past....My veiw is easy...DO NOT CROSS that is it. When did I blame a person of even insinuate that someone has. I have mentioned Turner and that is it...and that is no secret. I even stated that I have never even seen a colored bird in real life..except for an andalusion that flew in my team and produced great spinners....I even said that I was not expert on colors....my position has been from a breed standpoint about crossing..because of my pure bred livestock backgroud...that is it.
I feel I am one of the most kick back guys on here and have an open mind.
Well you are wrong about my beliefs...I have said people are free to do what they want in there backyard...I have only mentioned seeing and F1 for sale on a web page that was being passed as a Birmingham..and it was clearly not...that is what started this whole debate 3 years ago....after the debate..the bird was removed from the site...I have no idea who is or even if it is still going on...I even told cliff that I have no problem with his strain, or him....I even told David Straight that I would judge the birds in a fly....so where have I accused someone of color breeding...I know someone out there is doing it and selling them..I seen a picture with a price underneath..
So...with that...I have loved pigeons all my life...and that is it....I am just pissed about $$$$$ for color....have you even read all my posts...
I am offended by that comment....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1394 posts
May 28, 2008
8:05 PM
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You know what Tony...I am going to have to really think about the commitee.....I don't want people to think that my beliefs are not what they are....maybe I should have kept my yapper shut....
rock and ROLL
paul
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Gregg
314 posts
May 28, 2008
9:07 PM
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Paul,
Two things. One was your nine point statement of what is allowed and the seconed was your total disagreement with a simple compromise of Pure versus True.
When I complimented Tony on the choice of his panel, you were one that I was very glad to see on same.
Gregg.
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Gregg
315 posts
May 28, 2008
9:11 PM
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Paul,
Your nine point statement and your total opposition of even a simple compromise such as True versus Pure. Your selection for Tony's panel was one that I applauded. Do the job, all opinions should be heard. But I thought that was what rpdc was for in the first place. JMHO.
Gregg.
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chuck
16 posts
May 28, 2008
9:19 PM
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Cliff, I know Clay is flying mixed families now, but at the time of His win He was flying Jacs. That's what He Told Me. Chuck
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 9:23 PM
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fhtfire
1395 posts
May 28, 2008
9:40 PM
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Greg,
The pureVStrue...they are one in the same...call up webster and have them change the definition...I quoted..that is it...as far as my nine point statement...never did I say that someone on here is breeding for color or accused.....true vs pure is not accusing anybody.....my nin point statement has to do with crossing...even Cliff agreed that crossing is wrong...I will take the hit on what I believe...but not when someone states that I feel most people cross breed.....I have no proof of that..and never accused...if you are upset because feel that crossing for color is bad...the ok...my mind will never change...but accusing or saying what I believe..re-read my posts.
Actually my nine points are pretty good points....but nowhere did I point a finger....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 28, 2008 9:42 PM
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