Ty Coleman
337 posts
May 29, 2008
4:45 AM
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I didnt find this debate interesting at all for it to take 347 posts to figure it out... Its simple you either fly True Birmingham rollers.... or you fly a cross with a non roller, to make a pretty color which opened up a gene pool of a non roller to a roller which turned out to be a mess for the next guy... .
...just my view....
siDLOVE__
Last Edited on 28-May-2008 5:13 PM
Sid, would you not consider 15/16 pure? Paul has posted where it's accepted by almost all other clubs and it's accepted in genetics.Have you read all the post or skimmed through them?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Gregg
316 posts
May 29, 2008
5:12 AM
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Paul,
As I stated, I have not been able to read the whole thread. I thought that I made that obvious. Time has just not been available given what I am dealing with in life right now. I also acknowledge that the subject is one I feel very strongly about.
I agree with you that the crossing of the breed is wrong. I arrived at this position based upon experience. Morally it is totally wrong if one is fostering the results upon the hobby as something which one knows to be a lie, irregardless of how old or how many generations back the lie took life.
I am not upset about any of this subject. I look at it from an entirely different perspective. I feel that every time it is hashed and re-hashed, further interest in birds of color is advanced. I just do not want to get into the old screaming match that has at times in the past made the subject more of a side-show than an honest discussion.
My apology if in any way you feel that I mis-stated your position. I have been guilty of reacting rather than operating on a full knowledge of the argument. Perhaps you can understand my zeal (love of what I do) as an excuse. That happens when one is only catching glimpses of a conversation rather than the gist of the discussion. That and my irritation at not being able to fully participate.
At the same time I will stand behind my belief that a compromise means that you have to give up a bit also. I am sure that Merriam Webster will forgive us if in the interest of "peace in the hobby" we apply a slightly differing meaning to Pure and True than he originally intended.
And I still believe you belong on that committee. Hey, we can't have Tony setting policy on his own list. LOL. Smile and have a good day.
Gregg Sale.
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Scott
671 posts
May 29, 2008
6:02 AM
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I'm with Paul, it is already cut and dry,the rest is just smoke and mirrors
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1396 posts
May 29, 2008
6:15 AM
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Sorry for all the misumspeled words...LOL...typing fast and not reading!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1321 posts
May 29, 2008
7:07 AM
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Paul,
You.......laid back??? LOL! I guess I can't say anything though, because I'm about as laid back as they come and I'm sure it does not come accross in the heat of these debates. Anyway, on your nine points, I wanted to set the record straight on one issue. I have never seen anyone who breeds and flies the Turner family on this site claim that their birds were "pure" Birminghams. We have stated that, for all practical purposes, and genetically speaking, they are so close to pure that the difference is insignificant, and that they qualify to be called True Birminghams based on the performance standard. And I realized that we disagree on the definition of a True Birmingham. Wish me luck on Wednesday...I'll be putting these mutts up for Eldon in the World Cup!
Later,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1322 posts
May 29, 2008
9:30 AM
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Scott
I beg to differ with you (imagine that!), if it was so "cut and dried," we would all not be so involved with, and so emotional about, this issue.
We (I) (all on this committee) are looking for a way, to reach a compromised settlement, (I hope) on the questions raised during this thread. As Tony said, we will not be able to please every body on every question. Several compromises have already been discussed and dismissed out of hand.
If the settlement goes far and beyond, what is now in place to guide the NBRC/WC, we may just be digging ourselves a deeper divide. I for one, will reserve judgment and try to be as open minded as possible, while we trying to see the other's point of view, as they are being presented. (I would like to suggest that any ad hoc committee members who feel they are incapable of compromise on the issue may want to excuse themselves.)If we cannot reach a mutual agreement, it might come down to just avoiding this subject in the future. A Taboo subject, like a few already in place.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 29, 2008 9:39 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2567 posts
May 29, 2008
10:11 AM
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Hey Cliff, I am reminded of the words of the great Margaret Thatcher, former Prime Minister of England, "this is no time to go wobbly".
I can respect those that do not have the stomach for the effort or the time or whatever. They just will not have any direct influence on any document produced as it relates to this sites' position on the policy.
When I think of the number of newbies that have come to this site for the first time every month over the last 5 years and the influence such a document may have on them and ergo the future of the fancy, I am honored that I might be a part of that.
Here is how I see this effort: I don't have to nor do I want to change the minds of a Scott or a Paul or a Gregg or a Luis or a David or a Bob, I just want to educate the newbie, hungry for "how to" information and the current fancier who needs something more substantial than a "because I said so" from a prominent fancier.
I been used to uphill fights my whole life, nothing new, except now I have a few fighting next to me on this and that's powerful!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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ducket
12 posts
May 29, 2008
10:21 AM
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Hej Tony,
How is Mr Karps artickle a Document ? he has not given us the names of the fanciers involved, what was the name of the roller club? what was the name of the west club ? so please tell me what has been documented.
All Mr Karp has told us is that fanciers crossed so called rollers and so called wests, these cross`s can still be found in England today, I had them as a lad at the back end of the 50s nearly every young lad in England started in pigeons by keeping these tumblers, there are literally thousands of them spread all over England. I do not doubt that the Oriental and Dutch tumbler have a part to play in the B.Roller,the Wests were just starting to become a breed in themselves around the 1890s and early 1900s, so anyone crossing roller & wests from the 1900s to 1930 has just that, Crosses not B.Rollers just Roller West crosses.We all know that such fanciers as Bill Richards and Harry Bellfield were already breeding B.Rollers. I believe the article is being misused to validate the breeding for all the funny colours or what ever takes your fancy.
Eric Laidler, Denmark.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2569 posts
May 29, 2008
10:34 AM
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Hey Eric, I think you just recapped why we should have a document that lays out our policy here.
If you can't see my point by now, then what else can I say? I can't debate the issue with you because if I did, I would AGREE with you! LOL
What we are really trying to accomplish is a document that will recognize the reality of the past as you and others have laid out and focus on preserving the Birmingham Roller for the future through good and proper breeding practices.
PS: I AM a purist at heart, ask anyone and go look up my past posts on this site (not just this thread) regarding the matter.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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sippi
297 posts
May 29, 2008
12:54 PM
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I'm in Tony and thanks for asking.
Sippi
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J_Star
1601 posts
May 29, 2008
1:31 PM
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After 8 pages, shall we have a group hug now!!!
Jay
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Velo99
1803 posts
May 29, 2008
4:14 PM
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Eric,
Go back to the first page. Look at the articles,I cant remember which one. I qualifies Karp as one of the best rollermen in the US. Just because you have never heard of him doesnt mean he didnt contribute on a higher level than the averge flyer.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Scott
673 posts
May 29, 2008
6:17 PM
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Kenny , neither Karp or his birds play a roll in the bulk of the birds in the US today, for that matter this holds true for any birds in the US during that era.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 29, 2008 6:19 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2572 posts
May 29, 2008
6:44 PM
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Scott said:
"...neither Karp or his birds play a roll in the bulk of the birds in the US today, for that matter this holds true for any birds in the US during that era."
Scott, this is not the point of the Karp article reference in this thread, it merely establishes a historical (1930) connection with the WOE tumbler in England and the Birmingham area at the time and before, and if true, a reason we may have some of the colors that we do, especially any that might not be prevalent today or in these imports by Pensom as they were bred for the roll thereafter.
If the article is a valid historical document, then it has value to this endeavor. I think even Pensom published in this same publication later that same year and there is no refutation of these remarks by Karp that I can recall.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Scott
674 posts
May 29, 2008
7:29 PM
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What colors Tony ? the colors of the Birmingham which wide is well documented regardless of the country, and the weird stuff not in the breed we know came from somewhere else.
I'm no expert on Wests,but I'm pretty sure that Wests run in line with Birminghams, but I wouldn't trust that thought with Wests today.
I think it is probaby a sure bet that they have been polluted by the color mongraaaa or I mean genetic experts.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 29, 2008 7:32 PM
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Velo99
1805 posts
May 29, 2008
7:38 PM
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Scott,
Karp and Chan came from the same area, and were in the same organization in Cayahoga. They were both involved in developing the NA Roller. Even though its not a BR,still a roller. Ford or a Chevy?
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on May 29, 2008 7:39 PM
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Scott
676 posts
May 29, 2008
8:08 PM
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Sorry buddy, not impressed in the least,sorry.
Ps I drive a Ford , okay I'm lieing now,my Ford is parked and I'm driving a Corola
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 29, 2008 8:10 PM
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ducket
13 posts
May 30, 2008
1:43 AM
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Hej Lads,
That Mr Karp was one of the Best Rollermen in the USA is not the issue.
What he wrote is not true, not in relation to the B.Roller anyway.
What we do have is over 100yrs of Documented Evidence that that the B.Roller was bred to B.Roller, these B.Rollers are now spread all over the World, I like many other B.R Fanciers in England can trace their birds back in time from B.R Fancier to B.R Fancier. Over 100yrs of Documented Evidence can be found in the loft books of every B.R Fancier.
I f you want to breed for colour then do so but do not try to pervert the origins of the B.Roller to validate breeding for colour, based on articles that are not true.
This is why Bill Barrett once said, " The Pedigree of the Fancier is more Important than the Pedigree of the Bird ".
Eric Laidler, Denmark.
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Ty Coleman
342 posts
May 30, 2008
4:37 AM
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Muddy the water and attack the messenger, i got it. Do you have anything pertnent to add? The point has went over your head Eric.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 30, 2008 4:38 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2573 posts
May 30, 2008
4:44 AM
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Eric said:
"Hey Lads,
That Mr Karp was one of the Best Rollermen in the USA is not the issue. What he wrote is not true, not in relation to the B.Roller anyway."
Yeah right, you’re saying in 1930 an American Roller fancier writes a completely untrue article in an English Pigeon magazine on the origins of the Birmingham Roller and the English fanciers don’t line up to correct the Americans error?
Show me a contemporary document of the time (1930’s) that is written to refute the ravings of this daft American, I would think the “Pigeons Of England” magazine would be the most likely publication for such a refutation to have been published, would it not?
If your argument is based on the absolute proof of the pedigree and the hundred years of verifiable records, at least one of the English breeders would have wanted to set the record straight, right? Where is it?
==
By the way, if it is true as you say, the English fanciers can trace their BR pedigrees back over a hundred years, then they can then reveal the true origins of the BR...by all means, please let the rest of us saps know...what kind of long and cruel joke is this then?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2574 posts
May 30, 2008
5:10 AM
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Scott said:
"What colors Tony?
The colors of the Birmingham which wide is well documented regardless of the country, and the weird stuff not in the breed we know came from somewhere else."
My Response:
What colors? All the colors in the Birmingham Roller, as for the weird colors, if their presence exists at all in the BR, then as Paul F has tried to say, they are hidden to only pop up on rare occasions.
When, on those rare occasions they allegedly pop up, the fancier should treat it as any other young bird and fly it out to see if it has the performance traits that will advance his flying program, if not, it must be removed from the program.
This must be done to ensure that only the best BR specimens are used for breeding and maintaining the performance standard in his line of birds.
Personally, in my view, if these so-called rare colors did not get in the way of the roll, then I believe we would see them in large number in lofts all over the world, much like we do with the more traditional colors we see, however, we don’t, and this I think is instructive to understanding the value of a rare color BR.
Perhaps “rare” should translate to “not a good pigeon to base a performance family on” or perhaps “don’t do this at home”. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 30, 2008 8:08 AM
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ducket
14 posts
May 30, 2008
11:45 AM
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Hej Ty,Tony,Lads & Lasses,
I have not said anything about Mr Karps Person,I have only taken his article into question.
I got my birds from Eamon Dillon a B.Roller Fancier, he in turn got his birds from Ollie Harris who is also a B.Roller Fancier, he in turn got his birds from his Father and Bill Richards who were also B.Roller Fanciers.
"The Pedigree of the Fancier is more important than the Pedigree of the bird"
If you think that this is some long and cruel joke, then that is up tp you, you started this.
Eric, Denmark.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2575 posts
May 30, 2008
12:37 PM
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Hey Eric, with all due respect, this is what you said a couple posts above:
"What we do have is over 100yrs of Documented Evidence that that the B.Roller was bred to B.Roller,...
What you actually have is the good word of each of these fanciers, I have no reason to doubt that you believe them. But what evidence do they have contrary to the Karp article? Someone setting Karp straight as it were?
What we DO have is a document (Karp) that tells us something specific and none of his contemporaries is setting him straight? Because all agreed with his premise in the first place???
But now, almost 80 years later, everyone is suddenly an expert on Karp? What was said THEN (1930) IS the POINT! ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Last Edited by on May 30, 2008 12:39 PM
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ezeedad
586 posts
May 30, 2008
2:32 PM
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I didn't know what toy stencil looked like... Here's a picture.
"This Roller was developed by many generations of Toy Stencil matings. Toy Stencil is not an easy color to transfer to other breeds."
Apparently the white bars are one way the toy stencil genes show up..
Paul G
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Gregg
317 posts
May 30, 2008
7:25 PM
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Paul,
Posting the picture was the easy part, now convince Scott that it is a True Birmingham Roller. LOL. Let me know what kind of progress your making in a couple of years.
Smile,
Gregg.
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Electric-man
1646 posts
May 30, 2008
7:32 PM
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That bird is not gonna look much different than this one at 300'!
The main difference is that I didn't have to snap the necks of 15 or so other birds and throw them in the trash to get this color! Or worse, sell them to other newbies for a profit and lie about what they were!
JMO of course!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on May 30, 2008 7:45 PM
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Velo99
1807 posts
May 30, 2008
7:39 PM
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T,
If I remember correctly there was an agreeable response tothe Karp article,as in a layered discussion,from none other than the venerable WHP. I cant find it. Do youremember where it was?
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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/()_)__20___()_)\__\
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ezeedad
588 posts
May 30, 2008
7:51 PM
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Gregg,
Read more carefully...I DID NOT BREED THAT BIRD... Hell, I didn't even know what one was,,,!!
Gomez
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